Got called "elitist" by ill-tempered Trot

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Ya_Pasta
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May 23 2012 22:08
Got called "elitist" by ill-tempered Trot

During a small Luxemburg "Reform or Revolution" discussion group consisting of mostly left libertarians and a few Trotskyists I "confessed" that socialist revolution does not seem to me to be an historic *inevitability*, but rather a best-case contingent outcome. I suppose I opened myself up to the elitism charge after, perhaps melancholically, referring to a "lack of consciousness" in the mainstream as being one of the big problems. I guess I was thinking mainly about the US and the overwhelming control the ruling class has over political discourse through its ownership of media. The two other ISO at the group were quite friendly and open to discussing it though we ran out of time soon after.

Normal
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May 25 2012 17:34

Does sound a bit elitist tbh. IMO talk of "consciousness" is a bit of a blind alley and more the kind of term that Trots themselves would use.

Ya_Pasta
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May 25 2012 20:22

Maybe, but we were discussing Luxemburg's r or r? in which she writes:

The scientific basis of socialism rests, as is well known, on three principal results of capitalist development. First, on the growing an­ archy of capitalist economy, leading inevitably to its ruin. Second, on the progressive socialization of the process of production, which cre­ ates the germs of the future social order. And third, on the increased
organization and consciousness of the proletarian class, which consti­ tutes the active factor in the coming revolution.

Ya_Pasta
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May 25 2012 20:31

My pessimism is produced by what I see as general unwillingness to imagine alternatives to capitalism. Even now, it's so fucking far from mainstream.

Maybe that's elitist?

bzfgt
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May 26 2012 15:49

I clicked on this thread because I misread it as "God called elitist by ill-tempered trot"...now that was potentially interesting. Could God be an elitist?

Normal
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May 26 2012 16:14
Ya_Pasta wrote:
My pessimism is produced by what I see as general unwillingness to imagine alternatives to capitalism. Even now, it's so fucking far from mainstream.

Vague talk of "unwillingness" and "alternatives" is going to lead to frustration. Not that I know what she really said in the original German, but it seems to me that Luxembourg was absolutely right to talk about consciousness as part of organisation. What we're lacking is a total absence of organised groups fighting a real class struggle. They don't spring up when people attain the right consciousness, they develop through winning battles.

Angelus Novus
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May 26 2012 18:44

"Are they ill-tempered?"

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Croy
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May 27 2012 19:50

Of course God is a fucking elitist.

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NotVerySpecial
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May 27 2012 20:47

A bit ironic coming from some of the most elitist people since the Monarchy (Trots)! Whatever it sounds like, fuck the Trots!

Ya_Pasta
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May 27 2012 23:15

"God called elitist by ill-tempered trot"
Would be a good headline for The Onion

bzfgt
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May 28 2012 16:52

I suppose electing a 'chosen people' could be seen as being elitist, depending on how we interpret it...