Stuggle can even change primmos (apparently)

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Chilli Sauce's picture
Chilli Sauce
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Sep 25 2011 12:20
Stuggle can even change primmos (apparently)

From longshore workers article

Quote:
"Location: Civic Circle - Longview, WA by the Post Office
Time: ‎5:30PM Thursday, September 29th

Union, Non-union, Friends, Family, anyone and everyone who is disappointed with the way EGT has failed to follow through with their promises to our community and are upset with the way the police use intimidation, repression and violence to stamp out our resistance to corporate exploitation.

Bring your own: banners, signs, leaflets, posters, plans, voices and courage!"

.....Stuff some of us insurrectionary anarcho-primitivists of the Northwest and Longview Longshoremen are doing together. We suggested a demonstration for people from all over Washington to polarize around and now it's happening. So tell your contacts here in the PNW to come and organize around this.

Now, my initial response was to be a sneering asshole: "Ah, you stupid fucking primmos. Look at how fucking stupid you are, you don't even realise the massive contradiction between being a primmo and supporting industrial struggle. Stupid, fucking, blah, blah..."

Then I realised that was the wrong tact entirely. (Here's where I go from sneering to patronising...) The author(s) of that callout post have clearly gone far beyond the bounds of their own professed ideology and moved into actively supporting class struggle. They may still identify as primitivists, but their practice is far closer to anarcho-syndicalism than green anarchism.

This is fucking amazing. Mass struggle kicks off and the even anarchists who ostensibly reject class struggle as it doesn't directly address industrial society are now supporting workers disputes! Fantastic.

Have we reached a turning point in Olympia, in the NW, and with the Crimethincers? I don't know, but good luck to the organisers of this protest, please keep us informed how it goes.

Jason Cortez
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Sep 25 2011 12:50

What is a stuggle?

Baronarchist
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Sep 25 2011 13:33
Jason Cortez wrote:
What is a stuggle?

Who knows, eh?

Anyway it looks good all sorts of anarchists are uniting under a common banner. After all mutualism, primitivism and more or less any time of anarchism besides Capitalism won't be 'disallowed' by the social anarchist police, post-revolution.

Although would banners such as: 'Back to the wild!' and 'Never be domesticated!' send out a good view on progressive syndicalism?

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Chilli Sauce
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Sep 25 2011 15:45
Quote:
Anyway it looks good all sorts of anarchists are uniting under a common banner. After all mutualism, primitivism and more or less any time of anarchism besides Capitalism won't be 'disallowed' by the social anarchist police, post-revolution.

I mean, I agree, if people want to shit in the woods ATR, fine, but to convince people of the legitimacy of our cause we're going to actively take part in and instigate material struggles (or even stuggles embarrassed ).

Mutualism and primitivism can't do that.

@theorynerd
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Sep 27 2011 02:50

Well, if you want to destabalize civilization (the metropolis, cause falters in the spectacle commodity flow, etc) the ports are a great place to start. That and the railroads.

Also chilling with people who like to hunt and fish and grow fruit, but who also profess to hating technology and wanting to live like native americans, who also happen to work at the port is pretty fun. We talk about oyster mushrooms eating petro-chemicals from soil and how shitty it is that wolves get taken out by helicopters. Me and my crew are on some next level "Call"/"Against History Against Leviathan" shit. So I don't know, why try to fit me into your category when I've already bastardized and flattened my ideas by calling myself an insurrectionary anarcho primitivist? Labels are retarded anyway.

I am an agent of chaos, not an anarchist "organizer". If our domination is rooted in Control then I will be uncontrol, and by that I mean getting rid of my resentiment (and myself), living a projectual life rooted in a loving connection with wild spaces and spreading subversion everywhere I go. Part of having a place based culture is knowing your nieghbors and I have some pretty fucking angry neighbors in Longview. I don't care about unions, parties, or any boring political shit like that. I have read A Thousand Plateaus and I am deterrorialization, I am don't care much for "things" and want the shipment of "things" to stop, so I tell the port workers why I hate the "things" and they tell me they hate the "things" too and I tell them that they can stop bringing in the "things" and they don't think it is such a bad idea. Is that simple enough for you?

I know you think you have gotten one up for anarcho-communism or whatever shit you're into cause I'm talking to port workers about anarchy and occupations, but the joke is on you, because I will make the most of every crisis and if I can have a role in helping to create the conditions for that in a way that is not sabotaging train lines, fiber optics cables, highways, etc. then I'm into it.

Feel me?

You know "Block the economy" or Derrick Jensens "Dismantling industrial infrastructure"... When people don't have all the stupid flashing bright plastic shit in their faces then you have shattered the normality. Duh?

I don't know if anyone is reading this.. But do you got any shit to say to that?

redsdisease
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Sep 27 2011 03:31

Great another civ/anti-civ debate...

Samotnaf
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Sep 27 2011 05:00

Stuggle, however you define it, can even change primmos, anarcho-communists,and almost everybody.

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Chilli Sauce
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Sep 27 2011 07:05
@theorynerd wrote:
Well, if you want to destabalize civilization (the metropolis, cause falters in the spectacle commodity flow, etc) the ports are a great place to start. That and the railroads.

Also chilling with people who like to hunt and fish and grow fruit, but who also profess to hating technology and wanting to live like native americans, who also happen to work at the port is pretty fun. We talk about oyster mushrooms eating petro-chemicals from soil and how shitty it is that wolves get taken out by helicopters. Me and my crew are on some next level "Call"/"Against History Against Leviathan" shit. So I don't know, why try to fit me into your category when I've already bastardized and flattened my ideas by calling myself an insurrectionary anarcho primitivist? Labels are retarded anyway.

I am an agent of chaos, not an anarchist "organizer". If our domination is rooted in Control then I will be uncontrol, and by that I mean getting rid of my resentiment (and myself), living a projectual life rooted in a loving connection with wild spaces and spreading subversion everywhere I go. Part of having a place based culture is knowing your nieghbors and I have some pretty fucking angry neighbors in Longview. I don't care about unions, parties, or any boring political shit like that. I have read A Thousand Plateaus and I am deterrorialization, I am don't care much for "things" and want the shipment of "things" to stop, so I tell the port workers why I hate the "things" and they tell me they hate the "things" too and I tell them that they can stop bringing in the "things" and they don't think it is such a bad idea. Is that simple enough for you?

I know you think you have gotten one up for anarcho-communism or whatever shit you're into cause I'm talking to port workers about anarchy and occupations, but the joke is on you, because I will make the most of every crisis and if I can have a role in helping to create the conditions for that in a way that is not sabotaging train lines, fiber optics cables, highways, etc. then I'm into it.

Feel me?

You know "Block the economy" or Derrick Jensens "Dismantling industrial infrastructure"... When people don't have all the stupid flashing bright plastic shit in their faces then you have shattered the normality. Duh?

I don't know if anyone is reading this.. But do you got any shit to say to that?

Not even worth the debate. I mean, seriously, an "agent of chaos" who thinks labels are "retarded" (ableist!) but who identifies as an "anarchist rebel" and "insurrectionary anarcho-primitivist"....

Whoever wrote this is obviously deeply confused, but whatever, I'll support our "insurectionary anacho-primitivist" friends in their practical activities even if they, themselves, deny the class nature of the support they're giving.

tastybrain
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Sep 27 2011 21:24

"I hate the "things" and they tell me they hate the "things" too and I tell them that they can stop bringing in the "things" and they don't think it is such a bad idea. Is that simple enough for you?"

So does the inhaler I count on to stay healthy count as a "thing"? Cause I would like to still have that after the revolution.

I don't think the port workers are gonna stop "bringing in things" until they have a viable alternative, no matter how much they agree with you. They are fighting for more jobs which will have the effect of bringing in more "things"! So why are you even supporting them?

Even after the revolution we will still have to move some physical objects from A to B (altho hopefully fewer things).

EDIT: P.S., does anyone know if there are any class struggle anarchists doing solidarity work with the port workers?

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Juan Conatz
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Sep 28 2011 00:57

The main reason for the struggle is that the ILWU knows that this terminal is a test. A test on their monopoly of the West Coast and a test of their strength. ILWU knows if they allow this, it will start a push of non-unionized or scab unionized ports. Not sure why primitivists would find any appeal in this other than the fetishism of violence. But I assume this person is more using this terminology because its the norm in their region, rather than a thought out, coherent justification of their practice and how it ties to their ideology.

batswill
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Sep 28 2011 04:59

@theorynerd wrote

"When people don't have all the stupid flashing bright plastic shit in their faces then you have shattered the normality. Duh?

I don't know if anyone is reading this.. But do you got any shit to say to that?"

Umm, only that the apparatus of capture includes the egotistical territory of self-aggrandizement and the hierarchies these attitudes create, for which you are a spokes-person.

@theorynerd
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Sep 28 2011 19:09
Quote:
Main rail line sabotaged amidst longshoreman strike — Longview, WA

The main Burlington Northern Santa Fe rail line is shut down through southwest Washington, as BNSF police and inspectors investigate tampering along the railway from north of Vancouver to Chehalis.

Spokesman Gus Melonas says BNSF personnel discovered the tampering shortly before 11 a.m. Monday along that corridor. He says nine trains including Amtrak are being held. A limited number of freight trains are being escorted through at restricted speeds. The first incident was reported near the Longview.

Melonas says police are searching the area for suspicious activity and are investigating further. He says the main rail lines will be closed until it’s determined to be safe.

How does this not help destabilize the economy? If you like the Perlman concept of "leviathan's tentacles" or Invisible Committees "Flows of Capital" or you just really want to kill Juene Fille cause she just needs to go already, then making friends with people who can seriously fuck up the economy makes perfect sense.

The pirates attacked flows of capital (whilst creating communized life-ways) during trans-Atlantic capitalism (The Many Headed Hydra, Under the Black Flag, Pirate Utopias)

Native warriors here attacked "the flows" during the "Indian Wars" and caused substantial damage to Empire. They formed maroon colonies with people who didn't know what an inhaler was, but knew that their European culture wouldn't ever stop. They got rid of the Europe inside them (learning place based languages and memes would probably do that to you) and fought colonizers with fucking fierce intensity.

Why would I only pigeon hole myself to my guerrilla gardening, permaculture designs, mushroom hunts, bee keeping, theory reading, parenting, communion with nature when I can also talk with people who share similar values and dreams who live in Longview and are in more of a position to fuck up the rich's plans of biopower and whatnot.

Why do you care so much that I feel that the struggle against power is rooted a lot older and deeper than feudalism? I mean the whole idea that civilization is the "highest form of cultural development" is ridiculous and kinda dangerous, racist logic.

People commenting thus far are like a child who wants to run into his burning house to get a few more of his toys. Anyone else see this?

"What about chocolate, will we have chocolate after The Revolution?"

"Of course we will"

"What about kiwi syrup, will we have kiwi syrup for our sodas after The Revolution?"

"Totally, dude"

Objects are of no importance to me. "After The Revolution" I will live on ideas, my diffused permaculture gardens, wild salmon, berries, apples, stolen water purifiers, venison and more ideas.

I would warn most of you to stop objectifying people I actually met in Longview, I mean we talked about "Food of the Gods" and "Orgies of the Hemp Eaters" and how much industrialism is ruining the planet. One guy told me it was way older than industrialism, that it dated back to agriculture and that EGT is just the worst version of that. Did you get that?

Maybe living in the Northwest of the US is different cause there is cheap weed and beautiful forests, mountains, lakes, rivers, beaches and a chill hippy/biker vibe. Maybe in Britain or wherever some of you are writing from people are more uptight from years of civilizing terror. I don't know, I've never been to Europe, but if it's anything like some of the big cities on the East Coast then that sucks, I feel bad for you. I just imagine this continent filled with huge cities and not a lot of woods and animals and I'm just sad for you. Jumping into pristine glacier fed lakes naked with a bunch of your friends after biking through the woods and farmland for five hours is amazing and unless you get what is free about that then I don't think you get what my B is.

I want anarchy so people can wild out in the woods and just be. There is no purpose of freedom. Definitely not going to let you organize me into some boring ass inhaler factory, but if you want to work there be my guest. Good luck with all the plastics and everything. That'll probably give you worse asthma, not to mention black plumes of smoke into the air, but whatever..

Anyway, you're acting like green anarchists are jumping onto this mythical "struggle" that is moving through us like a spirit or ghost or some shit. Nope, just me and a friend went down because we wanted to. Now we have some good friends down there. We did some basic support work and now a lot of people in the NW are doing shit around Longview.

You're probably freaking out about how much I don't make sense to you or whatever, but honestly I think it's cause you're not trying to hear it, or cause you're afraid of real wild nature (including your own).

@theorynerd
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Sep 28 2011 19:35
Quote:
EDIT: P.S., does anyone know if there are any class struggle anarchists doing solidarity work with the port workers?

No. I get the weird differentiation you tried to make between me and "class struggle" anarchists and I just don't buy it.

The class struggle anarchists you're talking about are busy with starbucks and hip bike shops and failing student anti-war campaigns in liberal colleges. Also they do some cool projects like SeaSol. Just us.

Oh, I guess the left shows up to Longview, but I throw away their stacks of newspapers.

Why do you think anarchist-primitivists don't understand or won't organize around class? Maybe you think we are a homogeneous force who follow party lines? Have you read Perlman, Camatte, Zerzan, Feral Faun, Chellis Glendenning, Stanley Diamond, Paul Shepard, etc? Who the fuck thinks anarcho-primitivist, Kafka and situationist inspired people can't experiment with many forms of deterritorialization? If anything ours will be the most interesting.

Think about this joke:

What happens when people who really love Dada, Nietzsche, Tiqqun, Paul Virilio, Perlman, Paul Shepard, Vanegiem, the Bonnot Gang, Deluze, Lacan, Attachment Parenting, Crimethinc, hallucinogenic mushrooms, straw-bale houses, violent rebellion, looting, Post-Rock, pop-punk and Hip Hop, Bonanno, Max Stirner, camping, Kids in the Hall and sex show up at the port of Longview with a couple of backpacks during a strike?

Stay tuned to find out.

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Juan Conatz
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Sep 28 2011 19:53
tastybrain wrote:
EDIT: P.S., does anyone know if there are any class struggle anarchists doing solidarity work with the port workers?

Not sure if class struggle anarchists or not, but I know there's some IWWers who are ILWU dual carders. Also not sure if any of them are in that local though.

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Sep 28 2011 19:57

You know what I like?

Name dropping. I want to run naked in the woods and name drop my way to freedom.

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Maybe living in the Northwest of the US is different cause there is cheap weed

That about sums it up...

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Rob Ray
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Sep 28 2011 20:10
Quote:
Jumping into pristine glacier fed lakes naked with a bunch of your friends after biking through the woods and farmland for five hours is amazing

Probably not so much if you had to walk the same distance without shoes or a road or a map to find your way back to your family I'd imagine. Seriously like, hidden bed of nettles and bare feet? Ouch. Also, if you were fifth generation or whatever you'd probably not know they were glacier fed. Also, you'd probably not want to do the jumping in the lake bit just in case you caught something - no medicines to sort you out sad.

I dunno though you do talk about straw bale buildings and such, so presumably not all technology is bad?

Anarcho-primitivism is kinda inherently anti-working class I'm afraid, cos it can't happen without the vast majority of working class people dying. Much as your new friends may well agree that industry sucks, you might want to ask them about whether they'd be prepared to sacrifice most of their friends and family to get rid of it (assuming they're the lucky one in a thousand survivor).

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Ed
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Sep 28 2011 21:02

To be fair to at @theorynerd, his lifestyle does sound fun.. I guess its the hippie in me.. smile

tastybrain
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Sep 28 2011 21:15
@theorynerd wrote:
Quote:
Main rail line sabotaged amidst longshoreman strike — Longview, WA

The main Burlington Northern Santa Fe rail line is shut down through southwest Washington, as BNSF police and inspectors investigate tampering along the railway from north of Vancouver to Chehalis.

Spokesman Gus Melonas says BNSF personnel discovered the tampering shortly before 11 a.m. Monday along that corridor. He says nine trains including Amtrak are being held. A limited number of freight trains are being escorted through at restricted speeds. The first incident was reported near the Longview.

Melonas says police are searching the area for suspicious activity and are investigating further. He says the main rail lines will be closed until it’s determined to be safe.

How does this not help destabilize the economy? If you like the Perlman concept of "leviathan's tentacles" or Invisible Committees "Flows of Capital" or you just really want to kill Juene Fille cause she just needs to go already, then making friends with people who can seriously fuck up the economy makes perfect sense.

I don't think they sabotaged the train lines cause they want to bring down "Leviathan" or whatever. On the contrary, they want the jobs Leviathan can provide them with. Kidnappers might rough up their victim a bit, but their ultimate goal is to get the money, not to kill the hostage.

@theorynerd wrote:
The pirates attacked flows of capital (whilst creating communized life-ways) during trans-Atlantic capitalism (The Many Headed Hydra, Under the Black Flag, Pirate Utopias)

Native warriors here attacked "the flows" during the "Indian Wars" and caused substantial damage to Empire. They formed maroon colonies with people who didn't know what an inhaler was, but knew that their European culture wouldn't ever stop. They got rid of the Europe inside them (learning place based languages and memes would probably do that to you) and fought colonizers with fucking fierce intensity.

Pretty sure pirates used money, so they weren't totally communized, to my knowledge. Indians also traded with each other and whites. Many of them in fact did bad things to nature in exchange for the manufactured good that whitey could provide. I don't think either Indians or pirates were the implacable enemies of Leviathan and capitalism you make them out to be, although there were certainly tendencies in that direction.

@theorynerd wrote:
People commenting thus far are like a child who wants to run into his burning house to get a few more of his toys. Anyone else see this?
....
Objects are of no importance to me. "After The Revolution" I will live on ideas, my diffused permaculture gardens, wild salmon, berries, apples, stolen water purifiers, venison and more ideas.

Necessary medicines are not "toys". Did you tell all the port workers you have no problems with all of their friends and family that have some sort of health problem not fixable by holistic medicine dying? Cause you know, industry is bad and stuff.

@theorynerd wrote:
I would warn most of you to stop objectifying people I actually met in Longview, I mean we talked about "Food of the Gods" and "Orgies of the Hemp Eaters" and how much industrialism is ruining the planet. One guy told me it was way older than industrialism, that it dated back to agriculture and that EGT is just the worst version of that. Did you get that?

Not trying to "objectify" anyone, I am merely suggesting the port workers are not the implacable foes of Leviathan and technology that you are suggesting. They're striking for jobs at a port facility. Seems pretty pro-technology to me. One guy hating agriculture out of a couple hundred or more doesn't say anything.

@theorynerd wrote:
if it's anything like some of the big cities on the East Coast then that sucks, I feel bad for you.

As someone who is from one of those big East Coast cities I can say it's actually pretty sweet; the crowds, the people, the music on the street corners, the diversity of cultures and languages. Post-revolution the city could be a wonderful place filled with human possibility. If you come and try to "destabilize" my city cause you "hate the metropolis" or whatever all I can say is be prepared for a fight.

@theorynerd wrote:
I want anarchy so people can wild out in the woods and just be. There is no purpose of freedom. Definitely not going to let you organize me into some boring ass inhaler factory, but if you want to work there be my guest. Good luck with all the plastics and everything. That'll probably give you worse asthma, not to mention black plumes of smoke into the air, but whatever..

Who says we have to keep using plastic? The body of the inhaler could be made of wood or metal and be permanent instead of disposable. And I'm sure we can take care of safety and environmental concerns when the priority is helping the community, not making a profit. Keeping industry doesn't mean keeping industry the same...

You don't have to work in the inhaler factory, just don't try to blow it up cause it's "Leviathan" or whatever.

@theorynerd wrote:
You're probably freaking out about how much I don't make sense to you or whatever, but honestly I think it's cause you're not trying to hear it, or cause you're afraid of real wild nature (including your own).

Yeah, totally buggin out right now roll eyes

@theorynerd wrote:
No. I get the weird differentiation you tried to make between me and "class struggle" anarchists and I just don't buy it.

The class struggle anarchists you're talking about are busy with starbucks and hip bike shops and failing student anti-war campaigns in liberal colleges. Also they do some cool projects like SeaSol. Just us.

Oh, I guess the left shows up to Longview, but I throw away their stacks of newspapers.

Why do you think anarchist-primitivists don't understand or won't organize around class? Maybe you think we are a homogeneous force who follow party lines?

Woagh, chill out. Take another hit offa yer joint, What happened to the laid back Northwest vibe?

I never said you wouldn't organize around class. Clearly you have done so; and for that, kudos to you, good job. I assumed you wouldn't identify as a "class struggle anarchist" cause you know, labels are "retarded"? And class struggle anarchist to me suggests just the kind of bike-fixing, starbucks-sipping crypto-Stalinist you define yourself against, so don't get heated cause I asked. Maybe I should have said "non Primitivist anarchists".

Honestly, I love nature too, believe it or not. But good luck surviving without any kind of "organization" or production. Can't wait to see what happens when your shoes and clothes fall apart and your tents rip and you can't hunt anymore cause your gun breaks or you run out of ammo (cause obviously you can't make more bullets, that would be industry, right?) I hope you have all the necessary skills to make all the shit you need. It really isn't easy, the native americans passed it down from generation to generation through intense training...hope you know how to make bows, fletch arrows, tan hides, etc etc. Btw, there were at most 18 million native americans living in what is now the USA before European contact, and even then they stepped on each others' toes and killed each other for trespassing on their tribe's hunting grounds. The idea that a population of 300 million can live off of hunting, fishing, and gathering is absurd. So either millions of people will starve to death and millions more will die in the struggles for hunting/fishing/gathering territory or we use *horror of horrors* some kind of agriculture. I know what I would choose....

@theorynerd
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Sep 28 2011 21:31

I'm into permaculture influenced nieghborhoods with a green anarchist unitary urbanism and emphasis on tribal style relationships with keeping some industry going if some neighborhood wants to produce wooden inhalers with some kind of selective harvesting worked out with some people who live in a place with lots of trees. Another seemingly necessary thing to do would be large scale habit restoration and bioremediation. Consciously decreasing population and every year becoming less and less civilized and uptight until the forests and rivers and meadows can sustain our lowered population to a hunter-gather existence. Undoing Europe is of crucial importance to this.

But honestly that's a fucking dream cause it's all going to crash and I'm going to help bring it on and I don't really have any kind of huge way to shape the what comes after, if there is an after. Chaos is cool with me.

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Chilli Sauce
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Sep 28 2011 21:41

"Chaos is cool with me"

"Anarchy is order"

Can you spot the difference?

Quote:
if it's anything like some of the big cities on the East Coast then that sucks, I feel bad for you.

I also liked this line. It's like listening to Bill O'Reilly rant about liberal "left coast" big cities....

RedHughs
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Sep 28 2011 21:55

Hmm,

I think theories of class are useful for understand how the world works, for crafting arguments against a given struggle compromising at a given point, for understanding the variety pseudo-oppositions which infest present society and various other stuff.

But theories of class aren't necessary to get involved with class struggle. Why, that the fight itself has an open invitation (a strength and weakness naturally).

Theories that claim that only people who learn about class struggle will engage in it might actually be less than useful.

tastybrain
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Sep 28 2011 22:25
RedHughs wrote:
Hmm,

I think theories of class are useful for understand how the world works, for crafting arguments against a given struggle compromising at a given point, for understanding the variety pseudo-oppositions which infest present society and various other stuff.

But theories of class aren't necessary to get involved with class struggle. Why, that the fight itself has an open invitation (a strength and weakness naturally).

Theories that claim that only people who learn about class struggle will engage in it might actually be less than useful.

Nobody said theories of class are necessary to get involved in class struggle, we are just taking issue with a few of @theorynerd's positions.

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Sep 29 2011 01:55
Quote:
What happens when people who really love Dada, Nietzsche, Tiqqun, Paul Virilio, Perlman, Paul Shepard, Vanegiem, the Bonnot Gang, Deluze, Lacan, Attachment Parenting, Crimethinc, hallucinogenic mushrooms, straw-bale houses, violent rebellion, looting, Post-Rock, pop-punk and Hip Hop, Bonanno, Max Stirner, camping, Kids in the Hall and sex show up at the port of Longview with a couple of backpacks during a strike?

Is the joke that you forgot Marx, Rocker, Bakunin and Kropotkin. I liked your personification of class struggle anarchists,

The class struggle anarchists you're talking about are busy with starbucks and hip bike shops and failing student anti-war campaigns in liberal college

I don't know how it works where your from, but Tiqqun and Nietzsche are given out free at Starbucks here wink, usually in conjunction with Verso Publications. Hold on...was that the joke....?.....

I dunno, babies and bath waters I guess roll eyes

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Chilli Sauce
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Sep 29 2011 06:59
tastybrain wrote:
RedHughs wrote:
Hmm,

I think theories of class are useful for understand how the world works, for crafting arguments against a given struggle compromising at a given point, for understanding the variety pseudo-oppositions which infest present society and various other stuff.

But theories of class aren't necessary to get involved with class struggle. Why, that the fight itself has an open invitation (a strength and weakness naturally).

Theories that claim that only people who learn about class struggle will engage in it might actually be less than useful.

Nobody said theories of class are necessary to get involved in class struggle, we are just taking issue with a few of @theorynerd's positions.

Basically, this. Of course people don't need theories of class to be involved in the struggle (that's basically the point of this thread!). But it is worth pointing out the contradictions to people who reject theories of class and class struggle but who are actively supporting class struggle yet think their actions are someone 'bringing down leviathan' when, in fact, they are helping to support industrial society (which I'm totally happy about).

Also, I made a slight snarky comment earlier in the thread calling theorynerd "ableist" because s/he used the term "retarded", but it's since occurred to me that primitivism is objectively ableist as society's ability to support those who are physically and mentally challenged would be greatly damaged if we rejected industrial society, never mind fucking agriculture.

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Croy
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Sep 30 2011 18:44
@theorynerd wrote:
Think about this joke:

What happens when people who really love Dada, Nietzsche, Tiqqun, Paul Virilio, Perlman, Paul Shepard, Vanegiem, the Bonnot Gang, Deluze, Lacan, Attachment Parenting, Crimethinc, hallucinogenic mushrooms, straw-bale houses, violent rebellion, looting, Post-Rock, pop-punk and Hip Hop, Bonanno, Max Stirner, camping, Kids in the Hall and sex show up at the port of Longview with a couple of backpacks during a strike?

Stay tuned to find out.

Hey, don't you go dissing post rock, that shit is awesome tongue

batswill
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Sep 30 2011 19:04
@theorynerd wrote:
But honestly that's a fucking dream cause it's all going to crash and I'm going to help bring it on and I don't really have any kind of huge way to shape the what comes after, if there is an after. Chaos is cool with me.

Lol. I think your ego precedes your awareness, awesome irony!

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Sep 30 2011 19:27

I argued for a little while with the I@'s and primmos on @news when they sarted posting about longshore stuff. Its really unbelievable how diluted they are to think that a wild-cat strike and direct action planned by the union (Yes, even the leadership was in on parts of it) is in any way some sort of indication that port workers are open to the idea of smashing industrial civilization.

I said just what you did at the end of it. I don't care what their motivation is. If they want to come down and support the workers in their fight for jobs, awesome. At the end of it the joke is going to be on them, though.

tastybrain
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Joined: 11-11-07
Oct 1 2011 01:46
John E Jacobsen wrote:
Its really unbelievable how diluted they are to think that a wild-cat strike and direct action planned by the union (Yes, even the leadership was in on parts of it) is in any way some sort of indication that port workers are open to the idea of smashing industrial civilization.

Don't try to pigeonhole them into some kind of theory, man! Also, diluted with what? groucho

nathorange
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Joined: 6-01-12
Jan 6 2012 05:37

Whoa, Chilli Sauce. Take the time to actually listen to people man. It might actually help you to stop putting your foot in your mouth so much.

You said:

Quote:
it's since occurred to me that primitivism is objectively ableist as society's ability to support those who are physically and mentally challenged would be greatly damaged if we rejected industrial society, never mind fucking agriculture.

The likes of @theorynerd are not "abelists" as you try to demagogue them. Open your mind a bit and hear what they are saying.

Also, monocultural industrial agriculture is not the same as horticultural food production such as permaculture. The former is ecologically DEgenerative, the latter is ecologically REgenerative. If there is no place for agriculture in a primitivist future it doesn't mean there's no place for gardening and permaculture. There were a number of indigenous peoples who grew gardens as well as foraged for food. We can learn as much from them as from strict hunter-gatherers. Hunting is not the only strategy to provide food for a primitivist community. Think a bit, man. Don't be so eager to fall into slippery-slope argumentation.

Jordan
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Joined: 23-12-11
Jan 6 2012 05:58

Nathorange,

To suggest that permaculture and other forms of horticulture aren't targets of the primtivist attack on agriculture seems ridiculous to me, especially when "monocultural industrial agriculture" is only a few hundred years old, but agriculture has been part of human existence for thousands of years.

Just specifically attacking "monocultural industrial agriculture" and wanting to backwords from that. would create an argument no different from that of the likes of DeMaistre, who whilst a reactionary, certainly wasn't a primitivist.

Chilli Sauce's picture
Chilli Sauce
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Joined: 5-10-07
Jan 6 2012 07:53

yeah, open your mind man. We're okay with gardening, so I don't see what you're so worried about...