1939 and all that...

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alibadani
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Joined: 12-09-05
Oct 7 2005 19:44

About Baboon's first paragraph which Meanoldman calls "counterfactual bullshit", I suggest that he read this forum. We have seen people defend Stalinism, democracy, patriotism, and Galloway. Many of these same folks have debased the debate with name-calling that lead us nowhere. Why not rebuke them Meanoldman?

This forum is about anti-fascism. In both Italy and Germany the fascists could never have come to power without the bourgeoisie. Hitler was selected by the German head of state in accordance with democratic rules. And a whole host of former democrats became fascists.

I'd like to link this to what is happening today. You'll hear commentators in the news, at least in America, say that the terrorists have been so successful because they take advantage of "our democratic, free and open societies." The logical conclusion is that democratic, free and open societies are liabilities in the fight against terrorism. Therefore if we truly want to protect ourselves from the terrorists we had better give up on our "democratic, free, and open societies." These same people who proclaim their love for democracy are willing to give it up for the supposed benefits of totalitarianism. We see how easily democrats can change their colors. When workers defend democracy against fascism, they are defending a ruling class who can easily adopt fascist methods, have done so repeatedly throughout history, and are doing so more and more as we speak.

Nick Durie
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Joined: 12-09-04
Oct 10 2005 11:01
Quote:
he anarchist/councilist/SPGBist use of the term 'Leninism' is a barrier to thought. It completely obscures the question of the class nature of an organisation, because it is applied equally to bourgeois gangs like the Stalinists and Trotskyists, and to proletarian currents such as the Bordigists (or the ICC). And it certainly makes it impossible to make a serious analysis of Lenin's real contribution to the revolutionary movement. It is not accidental that the very term Leninism was invented by the Stalinists with the precise aim of crushing the possibility of critical thought about the Russian revolution.

There is nothing further to say. 'Bourgeois gangs', 'proletarian currents'. A narratative palliative. Weird.

UNBROKENTHREAD
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Joined: 22-02-08
Feb 22 2008 12:32

It is not better to side with either , but to attack both not just with a revolutionary platform but with armed struggle as the international working class. but since all you fucks seem way to elitist and sectarian, to actually believe such a statement I am just as well replying to a post that is three years old.

magnifico
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Joined: 29-11-05
Feb 22 2008 12:34
UNBROKENTHREAD wrote:
It is not better to side with either , but to attack both not just with a revolutionary platform but with armed struggle as the international working class. but since all you fucks seem way to elitist and sectarian, to actually believe such a statement I am just as well replying to a post that is three years old.

welcome to libcom! charming first post

UNBROKENTHREAD
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Joined: 22-02-08
Feb 22 2008 13:07

I try not to mince words, and I guess I am used to talking to revolutionaries and reactionaries in the building trades, which doesn't help as far as my language gos. Plus the people who will make the change are the ones that fight struggle day in and day out. the ones who struggle in work place and shop floor and those who can rally together in the community. These people who are seldom heard ,and have little to no time to dedicate to marches and protest. Are the ones who make real change who build and fight where it counts and where real change is the only possibility for a better life. It is hear that the specter of revolution is given its true breath of life. Read from platformists, syndaclists, leninists, and trots I don't care as long as you are fighting for workers control of society both economically and politically then you are a revolutionary. but if your goal is to find a niche as some union or party beuracrate then you will ultimately fail and betray the working class that are so often used as a larch in this sick comedy of ours.
its enough to make me laugh till I puke.

Carousel
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Joined: 19-09-07
Feb 22 2008 13:29

So true. The people who make the change are not the same as the prevailing political niche. The question is comrade, what do any of us really want to see happen next? It should be expressed as a movement of muscles, but instead is pinned to the realm of ideas by the dilettantes on the various political scenes. The time to assert our own agenda has long since passed, but what next in this urgent task? Even the reactionaries fight to “defend living standards”. Given we are not, as the petit-bourgeois left would have us, slaves to history, what is it that the working class should do? Or put another way, what is it that they want?

UNBROKENTHREAD
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Joined: 22-02-08
Feb 24 2008 00:57

I originally had a long winded responce but I found it moved to far from the real topic, and only served in detracting from the point. Marx did say that the ruling ideas where those of the ruling elite, (as if anyone needed a degree to figure that one out). Most people want stability and a certain amount of control. People also want what they do to matter, I think this is why alot of people get caught up in commodity fetishisation. though out of everyone I have worked with I find only a small number of people really get caught up in having fancy cars and the latest this or that. Most just feel alienated or care more about time to devote to activities they enjoy outside of work. but what is interesting is how people can come together in their labour. I can honestly say that in almost every workplace I have been at people resisted the boss in some way or another and there was always a level of solidarity wether that had to do with how things where done on the shop floor compared with the "official" systematic approach created at the top, or weather it was every one downing their tools when and individual was being threatened to go home. I do think there is also a very different vibe with labour jobs versus office jobs. And I have found that those in warehouses , or grunt labourers, or dockloaders, or the trades are much quicker to do something about their situation then those at call centers. I think it has alot to do with monitoring or percieved monitoring probably more than anything else, though I could be wrong. I have also found stronger militancy in non union jobs not saying that there aren't radicals in unionized workplaces, but the fact that issues are addressed in a buisness union setting help to take momentum away from people who would otherwise be taking things into their own hands or building up to a boiling point. as well shop stewards can often play another role in managing workers and it has been seen by myself that people hold alot of anomosity for the shop steward and the union, though not to the same degree as the hatred they have for the company (marginalized reactionaries aside).
What do any of us want? well I would hope it is for the end of exploitation and oppression, equality and better living conditions for all.
But how do we get there?
I think the only way is to try to first build a base of support in our workplace and community. This takes time, but we also need to find issues that unite people in the workplace that are focused on recognizing the oppressive nature between the boss and workers and help to strengthen the idea of working class unity and clarify the class division and what it means. we should also be trying to set up an epicenter from which to branch out on the job site and eventually the industry and connected industries. but it first starts with trying to find at least that one other person, and not completely outing ones self to any potential scabs.

Carousel
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Feb 24 2008 16:22
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that the ruling ideas are those of the ruling elite

You know, I’m not so sure. There aren’t any “ruling ideas” of any significance, and where they exist at all they are imitated from the industrial working class and reflected back onto them by bourgeois media to assure us of various institutions’ responsiveness to their actually autonomous values.

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I have found that those in warehouses , or grunt labourers, or dockloaders, or the trades are much quicker to do something about their situation then those at call centers.

Quite correct. Bureaucracy is passivity.

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What do any of us want? well I would hope it is for the end of exploitation and oppression, equality and better living conditions for all.

This is an important point. Like people who like to speed on the highway, we assume decent people share our values, it’s not the case. Personally, I couldn’t care less about exploitation and oppression in general, just mine, and I feel neither exploited or oppressed. Indeed, those who feel exploited and the oppressed have a problem in action, not a problem created by the degenerate values of some criminal upper-middle class.

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I think the only way is to try to first build a base of support in our workplace and community. This takes time, but we also need to find issues that unite people

God no. “Defend the NHS” unites people, but does the opposite of transforming their thoughts into action. Indeed, the notion of support is somewhat bureaucratic, creating a metaphysical position in the mind rather than setting out the movements of the muscles required to create things, to make change.

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focused on recognizing the oppressive nature between the boss and workers

I disagree. This perpetuates the idea that the working class are victims of a Machiavellian elite, and encourages a campaign model of action which relies on maintaining its subjects’ charity case status throughout.

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but it first starts with trying to find at least that one other person, and not completely outing ones self to any potential scabs.

Depends on your situation I suppose. Heavy duty political conversations are few and far between, but there’s no point in having a political position if you’re frightened your promotion prospects will damaged by expressing it. I find that as long as you deliver on the job, the boss doesn’t care about your politics one iota. As for scabs, the thing to do is intimidate them physically, demonstrate that their behaviour will be punished. If they’re professional scabs, it might be worth getting some anonymous heavies from out of town to visit their family home and give them a little warning.