against leaders? against all authority?

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jef costello's picture
jef costello
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Joined: 9-02-06
May 6 2006 08:18
Zobag wrote:
You're all bastards

I meant it affectionately, my subject is not much different, except that the people I've been working with this year are all very sound and intelligent.

That might be because I'm at a real university tongue

the button wrote:
revol68 wrote:
last time you tried to cock me with some leading questions towards Hegaylianism you ended up with spunk on yer face. Boyo

Well, for "tried to cock me" read "invited me to stay at your house," for "with some leading questions towards Hegaylianism" read, "and lent me your pillow," and for "the button" read "Jack," and I suppose you're right.

grin grin

That's a pint for the Button at the Lazy Riser drinks

Lone Wolf wrote:
It would be because he would be inheriting a sound team of 500 peeps Europe wide

So it's the power then? You want John. to say things like:

"time is money"

"you're fired"

"suck me off for pennies poor person"

I am fairly sure John. has a little more integrity. tongue

Steven.'s picture
Steven.
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Joined: 27-06-06
May 6 2006 09:41
Jef Costello wrote:
So it's the power then? You want John. to say things like:

"time is money"

"you're fired"

"suck me off for pennies poor person"

I am fairly sure John. has a little more integrity. tongue

neutral

Steven.'s picture
Steven.
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Joined: 27-06-06
May 6 2006 09:46
revol68 wrote:
I'm just imagining you getting the job and taking gav out for an indian.

"Four nan John, four nan, that's insane"

"I've split enough rice with you gav, i'm in the big time now".

8)

noyesyes
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Joined: 11-05-06
May 11 2006 09:24

Topic was? To me the question about authority is all but clear. I can see some people unable to do anything without someone telling them so, and willing to do anything somebody tells them to do. I've also seen many times this kind of people that are really stupid, and this makes me think maybe it would be better that someone good-willing would give them the orders instead of eg. a nazi. So the question I'm thinking is:

If there are people, that can't use or don't have their own brain and are ready to do anything that other people tell them to do, should I or we want to give them orders?

You can figure it also like this:

Is authority or power something that exists because some (other) people willingly submit to it?

If yes, then:

How can you destroy the authority, because there will be people that will erect it again and again?

This is the reason why I can understand the vanguardists. To me it seems sometimes like some people just can't take the idea they would have to decide something on their own, or to really be conscious of being resbonsible for their actions. Maybe these people are so numerous, that they do really count. Can you force somebody to be free? Lenin and Rousseau would say "yes". To me it seems, that at least sometimes this is true. You can tell a kid not to run infront of car, and the kid believes you because you are an authority. Of course you can afterwards explain and grow up the child to use his/her own mind. But in the moment when the kid is running under the car and going to be killed, you can only stop him/her by posing your authority, you don't have the time to explain. You KNOW what is to be done, and you give the commands, even if you were for the kid's freedom.

Now, similarly with the class or the people and the leaders. For example, what if it is true, that the media strongly creates the consciousness of the people, and the only way to stop the brainwashing is to seize the power, because you can't get the masses behind your libertarian ideas as long as these propaganda-machines are running?

What if the conscious minority - the people that don't think bourgeois society is OK - would take the power and create an emancipatory and liberating society? You can't start from the supposition that people are libertarian and ready to respect other people's freedom. Anarchists, I believe, would say we have to do propaganda, to make people want an anarchist society, but to me it seems like that the commercial and statist propaganda-systems are far more effective. They have more power and at least on the moment to me it seems like anarchists are lagging quite much behind. (In the public opinion, how do they differ from some religious cults?)

Of course the problem is how could you ever really trust the minority not to start or to be forced to act like the former tyrants. I understand this, but to deny the power of the existing authoriatarian and submissive consciousness and the power of the machine creating this consciousness doesn't make it away. If people are to be free, they have to want to be free, and they have to realize they must want other people to be free too. What if they don't? Why are you yelling them "freedom, freedom!" when they don't want it and would like to shoot you in the head for being such a defiant citizen?

My big question is this, then: Why not create structers, i.e. hierarchies, where you can allow maximum freedom instead of taking the risk of losing everything just because some pricks enjoy the feeling of power and some other pricks enjoy the feeling of taking orders from the Big Boss and oppressing other people with their guns? I would like to make dissolve all hierarchies, to have only the authority of the reason, and let grown-up people to decide for themselves, but it's not gonna happen just like that. There are people killing, bombing and raping other people just because they were born on the other side of the border, or they have different god or anything. I don't want those people to "run my government". If I'm to destroy ANY authority, I have to be ready to show the better alternative, because otherwise I'm running a risk of giving way to fascism. And if I'm not sure that after the authority is destroyed, the people's "natural sense", their own reason, will take place, I'm not willing to say that even the authorities that are based merely on ordering and obeying, are only bad. For some people there just is an authority, maybe you can have an effect on which one it is, but you can't choose "no authority at all" -option.

Leftists are usually clever people, anarchists just seem to make the false conclusion that other people are too...