"Anarcho"-fascism

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zarathustra
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Feb 7 2008 22:53
"Anarcho"-fascism

Having some views on patriotism, etc. that are rather unique for an anarchist (thought not for most people), I'm particularly bothered by these so-called "anarcho"-nationalists that are trying to take advantage of the increase in interest in anarchism. The leaders of this fake "anarchism" are Keith Preston (USA), Troy Southgate (UK), Richard Hunt (UK), Peter Topfer (Germany), Hans Cany (France), and Flavio Goncalves (Portugal). What is worrying is that Keith Preston at least is trying to give his ideas legitimacy by hooking up to the tendency to bridge the gap between the libertarian "right" and "left" (as Kevin Carson is trying to do). It's all very fishy. Websites trying to link Bakunin and Julius Evola, Proudhon and Alain de Benoist, Kropotkin and Otto Strasser. Strange shit.

Any thoughts? It seems to have grown out of hippy-dippy "anarchism", at least in the UK - Richard Hunt, Southgate's comrade-in-arms, was part of that "Green Anarchist" scene. But elsewhere...? Where the hell does this crap come from?

zarathustra
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Feb 7 2008 23:15
revol68 wrote:
also Troy Southgate is a third positionist.

No shit.

Very funny about "my market." Excuse me if I love my home and hearth. I must be a real scumbag. Along with all those other stupid hoi polloi with their "false consciousness."

zarathustra
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Feb 7 2008 23:26

Ho hum. After not bothering to get the spelling in post 1 right, revol68 then makes an inarticulate redundant statement in post 2 that suggests he didn't read what I wrote, then takes off... I'm shaking in my boots now at this intellectual giant.

bugbear
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Feb 8 2008 12:07
zarathustra wrote:
Having some views on patriotism, etc. that are rather unique for an anarchist (thought not for most people), I'm particularly bothered by these so-called "anarcho"-nationalists that are trying to take advantage of the increase in interest in anarchism.

I'm a bit worried to ask, but what are your views on patriotism?

As for the rest, just goes to show you can slap the 'anarcho' prefix on the front of any old unrelated shite to make it seem edgy. Why is this any different from all the other shit 'anarcho-whatever' politics around that people have to disassociate themselves from?

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R.R. Berkman
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Feb 9 2008 19:06

Indeed.

I read stormfront every once in a while to see what the local fascists are up to. Last time I checked, there was a guy who had a picture of Bakunin in his profile pic, and used a Bakunin quote to back up his rather strange views. He seemed to have some sort of degenerated Proudhonian separatist/racist federalist politics.

Very fuckered in my casual opinion.

Zazaban
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Feb 11 2008 06:20

Wow, fascism seems to be getting strange, even for fascism.

action_now
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Feb 16 2008 21:16

yeah i just had a look on that storm front site. the section that they have for people wanting to argue with them is ridiculous. how stupid ca people be? and i ain't just referencing to their politics either.

Deezer
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Feb 16 2008 23:13

Richard Hunt
(even in his Green Anarchist days)
was always a cunt.

capricorn
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Feb 17 2008 07:56

People need to tread carefully here since both Proudhon and Bakunin were known anti-semites. In addition, Proudhon was a French patriot (who wanted, for instance, the Channel Islands "returned" to France) while Bakunin flirted with panslavism. So, it can't be denied that fascists and patriots can find stuff from them to back up their approach.
In a postcript to his pamphlet Marx théoricien de l'anarchisme Maximilien Rubel wrote of Bakunin:

Quote:
What to think of an "anarchist" or a "revolutionary communist" who believes and affirms that the Jew Marx is surrounded by a "crowd of little Jews", that "all this Jewish world", "a blood-sucking people" is "intimately organised [...] across all differences of political opinion", that it is "in large part at the disposition of Marx on the one hand and the Rothschilds on the other".

To back this up Rubel quotes a passage from the Bakunin Archives edited by Arthur Lehning about the link-up between Marx and the Rothschilds:

Quote:
That can seem strange [...] Ah, it's that Marx's communism wants the strong centralization of the State, and where there is State centralization, there must necessarily be a State central Bank, and where such a bank exists, the parasitic nature of the Jews, speculating on the labour of the people will always find a means of existing . . .

I suppose this is the sort of material the "anarcho"-fascists are able to rely on.
PS I though Richard Hunt died a couple of years ago.

action_now
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Feb 17 2008 11:58

I know that Bakunin denounced his nationalist tendencies once he suscribed to anarchism, so was he actually an anti-semite throughout all of his anarchist thought?

yoshomon
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Feb 17 2008 17:27

Bakunin did kick it with Wagner in '48..

capricorn
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Feb 17 2008 17:45
Quote:
I know that Bakunin denounced his nationalist tendencies once he suscribed to anarchism, so was he actually an anti-semite throughout all of his anarchist thought?

When did he become an anarchist? Probably towards the end of the 1860s. I imagine that did involve him abandoning his earlier flirting with panslavism (but I'm not sure, perhaps somebody else can throw some light on this). But his anti-semitism continued after he became an anarchist and was (still being)expressed at the time his dispute with Marx in the International Working Men's Association in the early 1870s. As he died in 1876 (aged 62) this was not a youthful position he later abandoned.
Anyway, here's what wikipedia says about his anti-semitism:

Quote:
Bakunin is often seen as a notable anti-semite by critics since his death. However, during his lifetime anti-semitism was a commonplace attitude in Europe and among literati or intellectuals.
Bakunin used Anti-Semitic arguments during a period of his life; e.g. in his argument with Karl Marx. He claimed that Marxist communism and finance capital worked together to promote the interests of Jews, a claim common among anti-Semites. Mikhail Bakunin repeated typical anti-semitic positions of the time, imagining, for instance, the Jews as
“ …one exploiting sect, one people of leeches, one single devouring parasite closely and intimately bound together not only across national boundaries, but also across all divergences of political opinion…[Jews have] that mercantile passion which constitutes one of the principle traits of their national character ”
Bakunin's bigotry was shared by some other radical socialists of the time. Proudhon's notebooks, for example, contain a passage in which he calls for the expulsion or extermination of the Jews from Europe. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Bakunin#Anti-semitism)

]

dave c
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Feb 17 2008 19:38

In 1873, Bakunin saw the Germans as "state-worhippers and bureaucrats by nature." By contrast, he described the Slavs as "unpolitical, i.e non-statist."

Capricorn, do you read French or is that Rubel "postscript" you mention available in English?

capricorn
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Feb 18 2008 08:14

Yes, I was quoting and translating from a 1983 reprint, to which Rubel added a postcript, of his original 1973 article. I don't think the 12-page postcript has been translated into English. But the wikipedia contributor is quoting from the same work by Bakunin about the Jews as a group being leeches and parasites.

Keith Preston
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Feb 20 2008 02:03

Before you folks dismiss national-anarchism as a crypto-fascist conspiracy, you might want to at least give some of its ideas a fair hearing.

http://www.attackthesystem/com/nationalanarchism.html

Fascism is a specific type of system where state and capital are welded together in a corporatist economy, with the subordination of labor, and militaristic belligerence. That has nothing to do with national-anarchism, the idea of decentralized communities oriented towards the particular.

admin: link broken

mikus
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Feb 20 2008 02:53

Ban!

RexRegex
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Feb 20 2008 03:24

Hello gents,

As a National Anarchists I should warn you that everything you know about anarchism is wrong. I am, as an anarchist, allowed the dignity as a human being to right to self-determination of who I am and what my identity is while I am on this planet. As such I have found a political tendency that specifies that I am allowed to define my tribal or national identity however I see fit. This outlook is commonly referred to as National Anarchy. I think that term is not always accurate and I tend to call it Tribal Anarchy. The tribe I am interested in looks like me, natively speaks my language, and shares my religious values. Thats not to say that other tribes are less valuable, just not my primary interest in life. I seek to create autonomous communities of my tribe to resist statist oppression and live in the world according to the values of organic life. Economically I am a syndicalist and advocate non-globalist forms of self-managed worker collectives. I'm not interested in persecuting other tribes but I am more than willing to defend my own from outsiders aggression. You can find out more about the network of National Anarchists I am involved in at www.bayareana/tionalanarchists.com As I expect to be banned by your moderators, there is a forum that you can choose to discuss these ideas further in that website.

For revolution,
RexRegex

admin: link broken

Keith Preston
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Feb 20 2008 03:26

Ban?

Why are you so afraid of ideas?

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gurley
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Feb 20 2008 04:04

Fuck...they're based in the bay area...why do we always attract all the nut cases ? This has got to be a fucking joke...please tell me its a joke guys....guys...

oh...yea...I say ban em'

mikus
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Feb 20 2008 04:20
Keith Preston wrote:
Ban?

Why are you so afraid of ideas?

My sisters were killed by one when I was young.

BAN!

Keith Preston
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Feb 20 2008 04:41

Your sisters were killed by ideas? How so?

mikus
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Feb 20 2008 04:46
Keith Preston wrote:
Your sisters were killed by ideas? How so?

Premeditated. Very brutal stuff.

Keith Preston
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Feb 20 2008 04:52

Well, okay, sorry if such a terrible thing happened. How does that fit in with the topic of this thread?

Caiman del Barrio
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Feb 20 2008 06:00
RexRegex wrote:
I think that term is not always accurate and I tend to call it Tribal Anarchy.

Fucking hell.

Ban and delete his fucking propaganda.

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Demogorgon303
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Feb 20 2008 08:35

Workers have no country. I'm pretty sure that applies to tribes too.

capricorn
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Feb 20 2008 09:06
Quote:
The tribe I am interested in looks like me, natively speaks my language, and shares my religious values.

Which tribe would that be? What colour does your hair have to be to join? What do you think of the influx of people from Europe and Asia into the Bay Area? Do you think they should be sent home to their tribal homelands?
And what are your religious values?

RexRegex
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Feb 20 2008 09:52
capricorn wrote:
Quote:
The tribe I am interested in looks like me, natively speaks my language, and shares my religious values.

Which tribe would that be?

The one that I claim to be my own.

Quote:
What colour does your hair have to be to join?

Any.

Quote:
What do you think of the influx of people from Europe and Asia into the Bay Area?

Marvelous.

Quote:
Do you think they should be sent home to their tribal homelands?

Perhaps, if only for short term educational value.

Quote:
And what are your religious values?

I do not discuss my religion on political forums.

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cantdocartwheels
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Feb 20 2008 10:11

bin this crap

magnifico
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Feb 20 2008 10:40

I agree there is stuff written by Proudhon and Bakunin that would back up these guys' world view, I'd also say that some 'anarcho-primitivists' who are probably considered comrades by people like Chuck0 and raw come pretty close to this. Imo it highlights the potential for reaction in any form of anarchism which isn't specifically communist.

Oh and Nat Anarchists we are libertarian communists on here - you won't have much joy with us. We see class as the basis of liberation and any form of national, racial or 'tribal' identity simply as a means of dividing us from other workers and making us feel a common cause with our own oppressors.

RexRegex
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Feb 20 2008 11:12
magnifico wrote:
I agree there is stuff written by Proudhon and Bakunin that would back up these guys' world view, I'd also say that some 'anarcho-primitivists' who are probably considered comrades by people like Chuck0 and raw come pretty close to this.

Agreed but I dont know who Chuck() is.

Quote:
Imo it highlights the potential for reaction in any form of anarchism which isn't specifically communist.

Whats your flavor, Cambodian-style or Chinese?

Quote:
Oh and Nat Anarchists we are libertarian communists on here - you won't have much joy with us. We see class as the basis of liberation and any form of national, racial or 'tribal' identity simply as a means of dividing us from other workers and making us feel a common cause with our own oppressors.

Well we very much agree and take it one step further in that not only is class the basis of liberation but that denying ethnic identity is the same as cultural genocide akin to capital without borders and the essential goal of the ruling class to complete the process of global wage slavery. Denying race is racist as any African-American professor in urban studies will tell you. Far from being just "libertarian" communists you sell the Frankfurt school of thought which is a threat to all people who value their heritage. As champion of everyones right to express their own culture I can tell you now that you're ideas are doomed as you confuse the ends of social liberation with it's scalar in space (local vs. global concerns) which is symbolic of the widespread alienation of modern life rather than it's cure. And besides, I am much more than a "worker," I'm a human being and heir to much greater legacy than my relationship to the means of production. Thats such a narrow 19th century manner of appealing to another person to be appalling, and quite simply, an inadequate means to find common cause with anybody.

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Demogorgon303
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Feb 20 2008 11:29

Any form of attachment to nationalism is a pure, undiluted poison for the working class. I'm in total solidarity with magnifico's points on this.

This is not the same as denying the existence of ethnic identity - such things clearly exist. But they cannot form any kind of pole around which we can form a resistance to capitalism, without capitulating the bourgeoisie. Capitalism is built on these divisions ... the nation state is the highest form of socio-political organisation that capitalist society can generate. It is precisely the contradiction between the globalising tendencies of capitalism and its ability to go beyond nations that is the root of its spiral of war and imperialism. It is the task of the proletariat to destroy all these frontiers and the creation of a truly global community that is defined by its participants' humanity, not their ethnic, geographical or national origin.

This doesn't mean the destruction of all the aspects of previous cultures. Rather it means a synthesis of their best elements and the true humanisation of the whole of homo sapiens:

"In the reconstruction and transformation of a world ravaged by decades of capitalist decay, the proletariat will inevitably confront problems of national, racial, and cultural divisions within its own ranks and within humanity as a whole. All these divisions will have to be faced, and discussed freely and openly within the workers’ councils and the territorial councils through which the proletarian power will deal with the rest of the population. But the final liquidation of these divisions can only be achieved by the continuous revolutionizing of the social fabric, which will undermine the material basis of such divisions and render them obsolete. As it moves towards the human community, the proletariat will initiate the fusion of all existing cultures into a truly universal culture, a higher synthesis of every previous human cultural achievement into the new culture of communism. With the emergence of this universal culture, the ‘tribal’ phase of human prehistory ends, and the real history of humanity begins." - Nation or Class?