Could we prove post modern arguments wrong on class?

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WeTheYouth
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Jan 30 2005 22:51
Could we prove post modern arguments wrong on class?

I was reading about how post modernists argue that class does not matter subjectively to the working class, and that culture, ethnicity and religion is more important, basically saying that class is dead.

Does anyone know of any sociological research or study which disputes this?

WeTheYouth
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Jan 30 2005 23:00

That doesnt really stand up in an essay as a decent fucking argument. And im sure it would give our arguments more strength if they was based in empirical research from time to time?

WeTheYouth
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Jan 30 2005 23:20
revol68 wrote:
to be honest what i take out of post structuralism is the deconstructing of gender, race and nationalisms, what i don't like is when post modernists deny any narratives a causitive place or when they deny the existance of underlying narratives like class, or at its worst a material reality that is exists independent of humanity eg the sun, solar system.

i don't think derrida or foucault have done this but wankers like lyotard or baudrillard have done so.

I have only ever read baudrillard. I was just wondering if there was anything that could show it to be wrong.

Joe Hill
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Jan 30 2005 23:35

this sounds like the arguments I was having with the CP before I was expelled. roll eyes

WeTheYouth
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Jan 30 2005 23:41
Jack wrote:
If it's for uni, try Callinicos' Against Post-Modernism. For a Trot, it's really well written, and contains (some) good arguments. Also, he's proffesor of politics at York, and so is respected and shit.

thanks ill check it out.

Joe Hill
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Jan 31 2005 00:32

callinicos is a

counter-revolutionary arse, pls don't listen to him..

Love Joe.

XX

Ps , also working for he opposition in my view, a bit like Hillel ticktinn.

WeTheYouth
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Jan 31 2005 09:36

Ok, any anarchists whcih offer up good arguments against it?

Wendal
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Feb 1 2005 14:59
revol68 wrote:
to be honest what i take out of post structuralism is the deconstructing of gender, race and nationalisms, what i don't like is when post modernists deny any narratives a causitive place or when they deny the existance of underlying narratives like class, or at its worst a material reality that is exists independent of humanity eg the sun, solar system.

i don't think derrida or foucault have done this but wankers like lyotard or baudrillard have done so.

It also a trouble when they forget the class-issue of sex by only talking about gender. Even if a person dosent define herself as a woman she will still have trouble with the opression that she experience(more or less) as a member of the class that is the female sex. Except from genitalias and such it seems like the(more or less) shared experience of opression is what makes the word woman still needed. Without that classanalysis it isnt possible to fight the opression just like it is impossible to fight the opression of other forms of class opression if we deny that one class if opressing the other(even if the classformula has changed since marx). Thats why i think that Judith Buttlers view on sex and gender can be a trouble, the same goes for extereme postmodern views on class.

phoebe
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Feb 1 2005 16:21

Judith butler's view of gender is wrong for a few reasons. So are those of people who consign gender to the domain of biology (one loses male privilege much faster than one gains it in my opinion, but there are people born with vaginas who don't identify as women who seem to do quite well out of patriarchy sometimes - I don't think it's nearly as simple an issue as anyone thinks)

Wendal
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Feb 2 2005 11:29

True. What i tried to say tough, is that people gets defined as women and therefore opressed and that it makes them a class. Just like with working class it isnt based on biology but on a shared experience of an opression.

There is a group at the teacher-university in Umeå/Sweden who works on getting the concept of class into the teaching-agenda for our country.

WeTheYouth
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Feb 4 2005 17:19
revol68 wrote:
no cos anarchism is more a political conception and cos me and wayne haven't fully debated out the anarchist position towards post modernism. :wink:

Well when you have decided be so kind to send it to freedom or atleast enragers newswire.