Decadence theory

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jaycee
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Apr 7 2006 13:24

the fact that they trash tons of produce everyday is precisely becuase too much is produced, if you accept that the working class produce more than they get given back (if there exploited) then it can't be any other way. There are of course other strata of society who are not directly part of this relation of labour and capital but it is still a general tendency.

your point about 'ignoring value' also reveals an important point. This is indeed an attempt to escape this problem but it can't work for ever, they can't ignore value but they have and are cheating some of its laws.

with regards to jef, yep your right, capitalism is decadent and revolution is the only solution to the worlds major problems.

jaycee
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Apr 7 2006 13:32

revol68, are you therefore questioning the exisitence of exploitation or of surplas value

petey
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Apr 7 2006 14:03
Lazy Riser wrote:
The crisis we face is not one of the tension between commodity exchange and labour but our continued capitulation to the middle class agenda.

yup

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Lazy Riser
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Apr 7 2006 14:07

Hi

From http://en.internationalism.org/wr/213_castoriadis.htm ...

Quote:
Castoriadis developed a whole theory that capitalism had now definitively overcome its economic crisis

Even Brinton had a pop at old Corny for that one. But looking back, I'm thinking, maybe Castoriadis had a point after all. The nature of capitalist crisis has never followed from the iron laws of Marxist LTV, but the irrationality and misjudgements incurred through hierarchal power.

Love

LR

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Alf
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Apr 7 2006 18:06

Revol you did say "well to be honest I don't think the working class getting back less than they put in, is to be measured in quantifable terms".

Why repeat jaycee's question? Is was fair enough. If the above sentence means that the working class is not getting back less than it puts in, then what becomes of Marx's theory of surplus value, of the unpaid labour time stolen through the wage relation? If the working class is getting back what it puts in, then *a fair day's pay for a fair day's work" would be true.

Lazy, are you really saying that the crisis is caused by the working class "capitulating to a middle class agenda"? What, all the wars and depressions and catastrophes of the last century or so, down to the poor old middle class? Seems a bit harsh on the shopkeepers and the chartered accountants

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Lazy Riser
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Apr 7 2006 18:30

Hi

Quote:
What, all the wars and depressions and catastrophes of the last century or so, down to the poor old middle class?

I’m afraid so. Including hurricanes. It’s my little “thing”, just humour me.

Quote:
Seems a bit harsh on the shopkeepers and the chartered accountants

Who's defending the Left of Capital now?

Love

LR