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madashell's picture
madashell
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May 17 2005 23:44
Volin wrote:
you're right, Humanists generally do hold human beings as the centre of creation -a complete throwback from Christianity, which a lot of Humanism is (and thus bunk.). But even with that many Humanists and some in particular have fought a remarkable defence for animals and their rights. Its not ok to be mildly in favour of "animal welfare", the present animal oppression (whether you believe in the godliness of your own existence or not) is unnacceptable.

Humanism and Animal Rights

I never said that human being were at "the centre of creation". I said that they are most important to me creation clearly doesn't give a stuff, that's why its so important for us all to work together and have flowers and fluffy kittens and stuff wink

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Volin
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May 18 2005 16:23
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I never said that human being were at "the centre of creation". I said that they are most important to me

Whatever you want to call it, my retrograde human chavinist friend.

Ghost_of_the_re...
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May 18 2005 20:25

"Human chauvinist"? oh for christ sakes, which is it, you love animals or you hate humans?

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madashell
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May 19 2005 16:28
Volin wrote:
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I never said that human being were at "the centre of creation". I said that they are most important to me

Whatever you want to call it, my retrograde human chavinist friend.

Run out of decent arguments then?

Lazlo_Woodbine
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May 19 2005 16:49
Ghost_of_the_revolution wrote:
"Human chauvinist"? oh for christ sakes, which is it, you love animals or you hate humans?

Thinking that humans are NOT soooo much more important that they have the right to abuse, exploit, kill, maim and control all other animals does not imply either position.

redyred
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May 20 2005 11:20
Volin wrote:
Humanists generally do hold human beings as the centre of creation -a complete throwback from Christianity, which a lot of Humanism is (and thus bunk.).

No - to believe in humans as the centre of creation is to believe in a creation in the first place. Christianity preaches humanity as being tainted by original sin, incapable of being wholly virtuous, and also as being subordinate to a higher power (god) - in other words the exact opposite of humanism.

"Those who seek refuge in straw men risk finding themselves at the centre of a pagan ritual on a remote scottish isle" - Old Libcom proverb.

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Volin
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May 20 2005 12:33
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No - to believe in humans as the centre of creation is to believe in a creation in the first place.

Clearly that's not what I was meaning mr strawman.

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Christianity preaches humanity as being tainted by original sin, incapable of being wholly virtuous, and also as being subordinate to a higher power (god) - in other words the exact opposite of humanism.

I think we're kinda veering off from the original topic, but no I would say that nearly every secular "post-religion" philosophy [humanism, marxism, fundamentalist atheism] has infact been a rebirth of much of the ideas of religion. Ideas such as the human chauvinism aforementioned (where humans are seen as not only completely seperate from the rest of the animal kingdom but above and superior to it), also assumptions of human destiny and "progress" and so on...

STI
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May 22 2005 14:52
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I think we're kinda veering off from the original topic, but no I would say that nearly every secular "post-religion" philosophy [humanism, marxism, fundamentalist atheism] has infact been a rebirth of much of the ideas of religion.

That's funny.

What "religious ideas" are "present" in Marxism? Or Atheism for that matter?

Putting "Progress" in quotations doesn't make it "religious".

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Volin
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May 22 2005 19:56

smile Marxism is about as pathetically prophetic and dogmatic as Christianity ever was, want to talk about it start a new fucking topic...

STI
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May 23 2005 04:24
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want to talk about it start a new fucking topic...

Hey, you brought it up, not me.

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Marxism is about as pathetically prophetic and dogmatic as Christianity ever was

Because if we say something twice, it makes it true.

True, Marx made "predictions", but they were based on objective analysis of social reality (the same type of objective analysis you'd find in any other science), and guess what, he was wrong sometimes. Marxists are "ok" with that, just as Marx would be, just like any other serious scientist.

Very few Marxists agree with everything Marx said (I have yet to run into even one). You'd be hard-pressed to find a non-leninist Marxist who still believes in "dialects". They exist, of course, but they're rare. Does this sound like a "dogmatic" group?

Outside of Leninism (where you'd see more dogmatism toward this or that "great leader" than to Marx anyway), Marxism is generally (unfortunately, though, not entirely) free from dogmatism.

But, for the sake of fairness, I invite you to bring up some examples of Libertarian Marxists being "dogmatic".

roman
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Jun 9 2005 17:31

There is dogmatism all over the place. Anarchists in my experience are more dogmatic than those claiming to be Marxists, although I will say that most Marxists are dogmatic also.

In talking about this though, I think we should be clear about what dogmatism really is. I think anarchists and other "movementarian" activist types often don't really have a clear grasp of what dogmatism is. They often label anyone who takes any firm position as "dogmatic". This of course can confuse dogmatism and a principled position. Anarchists and movementarians use the label of "dogmatism" as a way to bully for their position when push comes to shove. It is a dishonest tactic.

To me dogmatism is holding a position without having justification or without having done any research on it. Most of the anarchists and "movementarians" I talk with have done little research or have little justification for their approaches or ideas yet they are very strident in their beliefs. Most "Marxists" are only slightly better in this.

- Roman

It's Right to Rebel Forums marxleninmao.proboards43.com

roman
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Jun 9 2005 17:46

From a Maoist perspective veganism makes sense because it is usually healthier than animal based diets. I also think that it is better for everyone and the planet if we have "cruelty free" lives.

However, I don't think that it is possible to carry out any large scale social revolution without the force of the state. The only way to reorganize society on a massive and global scale is with a mechanism like a state.

So, if you really want fundamental change between the way humans act with their environment, then you should work for proletarian revolution.

- roman

marxleninmao.proboards43.com

Pepe
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Jun 9 2005 19:20

Will you force people to be vegan? red star

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Volin
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Jun 9 2005 20:33
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Will you force people to be vegan?

Will you "force" people to respect women's rights? black star

[No, I dont think a ban on meat-eating is a particularly realistic or even logical thing to do, that's not what we're saying. At the same time, if destroying the machinery of meat production and animal exploitation is forcing people to be vegan; tough shit muthafuckers.]

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cantdocartwheels
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Jun 9 2005 22:39
Volin wrote:
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Will you force people to be vegan?

Will you "force" people to respect women's rights? black star

Jesus christ, why would you even compare eating meat to domestic violence, and don't even get me started on the rest of your post.

I think you need to get more fish oils and complex proteins, you clearly need more brain cells.

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Volin
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Jun 10 2005 10:44
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If necessary, yes.

Indeed.

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why would you even compare eating meat to domestic violence

I was comparing animal rights with women's rights, which (and maybe it's too much for you to handle) are comparable. Since when did suffering and abuse stop at humans? -By the way, complex oils Omega 3 and 6 etc. can be found easily in over 200 plants especially those near the sea.

kalabine
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Jun 10 2005 11:00
Volin wrote:
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If necessary, yes.

Indeed.

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why would you even compare eating meat to domestic violence

I was comparing animal rights with women's rights, which (and maybe it's too much for you to handle) are comparable. .

that's pretty twisted to compare women with animals, i think you have some issues to sort out

i would defend womens rights with force if required - i would defend human rights to exploit animals in a libertarian society with force if required

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cantdocartwheels
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Jun 10 2005 11:05
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why would you even compare eating meat to domestic violence

I was comparing animal rights with women's rights, which (and maybe it's too much for you to handle) are comparable.

No they quite clearly aren't

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Since when did suffering and abuse stop at humans?

since we started farming i would guess

redyred
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Jun 10 2005 13:13
Volin wrote:

I was comparing animal rights with women's rights, which (and maybe it's too much for you to handle) are comparable. Since when did suffering and abuse stop at humans? -By the way, complex oils Omega 3 and 6 etc. can be found easily in over 200 plants especially those near the sea.

Comparable maybe in the way a tummy ache is comparable to bowel cancer. Suffering and abuse may not stop and animals, but a deep and complex capacity for psychological and material suffering does. Domestic violence isn't just about getting a few bruises...

And if you want to go down to Eastbourne to munch on some seaweed, go ahead. I'll stick with tins of tuna thanks.

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Jacques Roux
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Jun 10 2005 13:22
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And if you want to go down to Eastbourne to munch on some seaweed, go ahead.

Could always just get it from the supermarket wink

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Spartacus
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Jun 11 2005 11:38

seriously, don't knock seaweed. when you have sushi (which if you don't, you should) it's what's it's wrapped in, and the other day i had seaweed salad in a chinese restaurant, which was delicious.

and volin, why are you being so annoying? is this part of a secret plot by misanthropic vegans to make themselves so annoying that meat eaters eat more meat just to try and annoy vegans, and then die from heart problems from the imbalanced diet? stop all this animals are equal to humans, they're not. see, because i know this, i'm able to point out that all the arguements for the exploitation of animals being necessary in a libertarian society are misanthropic, whereas you just look like a fool.

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Volin
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Jun 11 2005 12:03
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Comparable maybe in the way a tummy ache is comparable to bowel cancer. Suffering and abuse may not stop and animals, but a deep and complex capacity for psychological and material suffering does. Domestic violence isn't just about getting a few bruises...

What're you talking about? Have I even mentioned domestic violence? Uh no. And why must every crappy discussion we have about

making animals lives better

become, "Why d'you hate humans Volin?". As though animal rights are necessarily at odds with human rights. I'd consider myself a feminist, infact many of the people who've inspired me the most have been at the same time anarchists and feminists...and d'you know what? They've almost always been for Animal Rights. The same is true for the greatest Feminists in history and for many Anarchists. Why is it after humans you have no compassion?

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Jun 12 2005 12:41
Jess wrote:
Will you force people to be vegan? red star

This as been dealt with (but once more, with passion..)...for those of us who are vegan/veg and sincerely libertarian, we understand a libertarian society is not uniformity and is not imposed on people, therefore we act as a pole of attraction to spread ideas, because I cant imagine how a libertarian society can maintain meat eating en mass....we have already discussed pollution, ecological damage, human health, land missuse, human population and the meat eaters only defence, was to regurgitate meat industry propaganda and say how tasty meat was, so instead ask yourself how can concious collectives feasibly want to maintain this, especially in the light of such poor reasoning?

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cantdocartwheels
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Jun 12 2005 16:57
Volin wrote:
Why is it after humans you have no compassion?

Hold on i'll answer that in a second.., * grabs newspaper* Thwack!

sorry what were you saying?

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Volin
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Jun 12 2005 19:51

Omg LMFAO!!1 roll eyes

are you intellectually incontinent as well as entirely lacking in original humour?

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cantdocartwheels
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Jun 12 2005 21:57
Volin wrote:
Omg LMFAO!!1 roll eyes

are you intellectually incontinent as well as entirely lacking in original humour?

Now thats a somewhat contradictory post.

Does the picture of the dead fly upset you?

redyred
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Jun 13 2005 09:32

You heartless bastard cantdo. Don't you realise you just made a female fly a widow, and left 4,000 maggots fatherless?

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Steven.
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Jun 13 2005 09:36
redyred wrote:
You heartless bastard cantdo. Don't you realise you just made a female fly a widow, and left 4,000 maggots fatherless?

My parents' neighbours were moving out, and left loads of stuff outside their house in boxes for people to help themselves to.

My sister got one of the boxes, brought it home and started going through it. She pulled out a can of fly spray, and began to shudder with rage:

"Those... murdering... Bastards!"

grin

NB my sis isn't an anarchist (well, she's a sympathiser now), and she eats meat!

redyred
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Jun 13 2005 09:48

http://www.shitflap.com/gallery/new/insect

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JoeMaguire
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Jun 13 2005 12:34

Youve all expressed the meat eating position so eloquently....thanks