IBT vs. NEFAC

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petey
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Oct 21 2007 02:45
IBT vs. NEFAC

in vol. 29 of "1917" the IBT picks two bones with NEFAC ("in defense of leninism" and "letter to NEFAC")
just fyi, like.
www.bolshevik.org

pgh2a
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Oct 21 2007 03:16

Well, I think the defense of lenninism is a restrained discussion from the IBT, which I believe is a Spart spin-off. I think a response would be quite interesting. As for the letter, some of the politics purportedly espoused by the Montreal collective do not appear to be in line with traditional anarchist-communist principles.

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thugarchist
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Oct 21 2007 04:29

Damn. I thought this was gonna be about nefac and the teamsters.

H
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Oct 21 2007 05:04
thugarchist wrote:
Damn. I thought this was gonna be about nefac and the teamsters.

That's why I opened the thread. I feel let down.

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thugarchist
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Oct 21 2007 05:13
H wrote:
thugarchist wrote:
Damn. I thought this was gonna be about nefac and the teamsters.

That's why I opened the thread. I feel let down.

I was hoping some teamsters beat up Flint or something.

pgh2a
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Oct 21 2007 05:23

That's actually why I opened the thread, too. I thought IBT was for the Teamsters, not the Spart spin-offs. Can we change it to Wannabe Sparts v. NEFAC?

petey
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Feb 15 2009 00:53

the international bolshevik tendency is a world famous, theoretically influential group. but who are these "team-sters"? are they sportsmen of some sort?

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EdmontonWobbly
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Oct 21 2007 19:05

I dunno what I like more the 'From Wobbly to Bolshevik" right on the front page, or the article called 'Acid test for trotskyists'. I love these guys.

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Bubbles
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Oct 21 2007 19:16

i wonder if NYC branch will show up...

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Nate
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Oct 21 2007 19:36

Agreed, the title of this thread is totally false advertising. The IBT should sue the Teamsters to make them change their name.

Smash Rich Bastards
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Oct 22 2007 18:07
pghwob wrote:
Well, I think the defense of lenninism is a restrained discussion from the IBT, which I believe is a Spart spin-off. I think a response would be quite interesting. As for the letter, some of the politics purportedly espoused by the Montreal collective do not appear to be in line with traditional anarchist-communist principles.

Yeah, crime of crimes... they marched alongside liberals and pacifists in some anti-war demo.

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OliverTwister
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Oct 22 2007 19:01

Right and some of them have said on here that they don't see the point to anti-electoralism.

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Oct 22 2007 19:26

Haha sweet, leave it to Oliver to side with Sparts as long as they're criticizing NEFAC.

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Devrim
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Oct 22 2007 19:44
IBT wrote:
Reformism, Pacifism & Anarcho-Opportunism
Letter to NEFAC

The following letter was sent to the Montreal branch of the Northeastern Federation of Anarcho-Communists.

5 September 2006

Comrades:

On 6 August thousands of people marched in Montreal under the slogan “Quebec stands up for justice and peace in Lebanon...NOW!” The demonstration also included calls for “respect of international conventions, international law and ‘all’ UN resolutions on the Middle East,” as well as a demand “that the [Conservative] Harper government disassociate itself from the policies of the U.S. and work for justice and peace in the Middle East.” The list of endorsers included Arab community groups, the Bloc Québécois, civil-rights organizations, trade-union federations, as well as Québec Solidaire and the anti-war Collectif Échec à la guerre to which the Montreal branch of the Fédération des communistes libertaires du Nord-Est (Northeastern Federation of Anarcho-Communists [NEFAC]) belongs.

The platform of the Collectif Échec à la guerre is characterized by bourgeois utopian calls for “a world of peace, based on international relations of justice, equity and solidarity,” and the “reconversion of the Canadian military industry to civilian purposes.” It also advocates the transformation of the United Nations:

“The Échec à la guerre Collective calls upon all nations of the world to firmly oppose the hijacking of the United Nations to benefit U.S. war plans or the marginalization of the UN through unilateral ‘faits accomplis’ that violate International Law and the very Charter of the UN. In this respect, we call upon the Canadian government to work towards the reinforcement of the role of the UN General Assembly in order to face the new international situation and stop U.S. military hegemony.”

How does any of this fit NEFAC’s posture of revolutionary opposition to all imperialist state powers (including the Canadian one)? Social-democratic reformists may dream about imperialist powers “reconverting” their militaries into humanitarian agencies, but revolutionaries know that only victorious workers’ revolutions around the globe will bring “world peace.” As for the UN, it is essentially an imperialist tool, as has been repeatedly demonstrated since the Korean War of the early 1950s.

A genuinely revolutionary organization would never sign its name to the pacifist drivel espoused by the Collectif Échec à la guerre. NEFAC’s willingness to participate reveals a profoundly opportunist tendency to cater to whatever is currently popular with its hoped-for audience. Any members of NEFAC who are at all serious about the goal of working-class revolution must decisively reject all social-democratic illusions about the bloody predatory system of world imperialism somehow being transformed into a mechanism for peace and social justice. Those who aspire to help the working class carry out a social revolution to uproot capitalist exploitation must begin by calling things by their right names.

Yours for Permanent Revolution,
Jordan Briggs,
for the International Bolshevik Tendency

This is the letter. Has NEFAC responded?

Devrim

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Bubbles
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Oct 22 2007 20:12
OliverTwister wrote:
Right and some of them have said on here that they don't see the point to anti-electoralism.

as in campaigning against voting or are you saying that they are pro-ballot box?

Flint
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Oct 22 2007 20:16
x357997 wrote:
OliverTwister wrote:
Right and some of them have said on here that they don't see the point to anti-electoralism.

as in campaigning against voting or are you saying that they are pro-ballot box?

As in one member didn't agree with doing a anti-electoral campaign, but the rest of his local group did, so they did an anti-electoral campaign, they got a lot of press out of it, attracted a lot of people to what they were doing because of it, adhesed many more members who joined who had been attracted initially from the anti-electoral campaign, and the member who didn't agree with it at the time speaks positively about that anti-electoral campaign.

Flint
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Oct 22 2007 20:18
Devrim wrote:
This is the letter. Has NEFAC responded?

Anyone who honestly cares to know what NEFAC's positions are in regards to war, militarism, etc... would be wise to actually read the statements specifically about it that NEFAC has published.

NEFAC Statements at the top

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Oct 22 2007 20:20

I was surprised when I learned NEFAC-Montreal cadre memers are running as candidates for office. I'm OK with it, though, because they do have their autonomy within the organization, and because there's a dialectical relationship between national liberation and working-class revolution.

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Oct 22 2007 20:30
Flint wrote:
Devrim wrote:
This is the letter. Has NEFAC responded?

Anyone who honestly cares to know what NEFAC's positions are in regards to war, militarism, etc... would be wise to actually read the statements specifically about it that NEFAC has published.

NEFAC Statements at the top

It is not really an answer to the question, Flint. I have no doubt that NEFAC does not actually agree with all of that liberal nonsense. However, it would not surprise me if I saw that they had signed a statement, or had joined some organisation that had those positions. Likewise, I do not believe that the 'Platformists' in Turkey would start out addressing appeals to 'Patriots' on their own, but they have signed joint statements that address people with precisely those words.

In lots of ways the real questions are similar to the ones raised in the hands off Iran thread, do we involve ourselves in these sort of campaigns, and if so how?

Devrim

Smash Rich Bastards
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Oct 22 2007 20:43
Devrim wrote:
IBT wrote:
Reformism, Pacifism & Anarcho-Opportunism
Letter to NEFAC

The following letter was sent to the Montreal branch of the Northeastern Federation of Anarcho-Communists.

5 September 2006

Comrades:

On 6 August thousands of people marched in Montreal under the slogan “Quebec stands up for justice and peace in Lebanon...NOW!” The demonstration also included calls for “respect of international conventions, international law and ‘all’ UN resolutions on the Middle East,” as well as a demand “that the [Conservative] Harper government disassociate itself from the policies of the U.S. and work for justice and peace in the Middle East.” The list of endorsers included Arab community groups, the Bloc Québécois, civil-rights organizations, trade-union federations, as well as Québec Solidaire and the anti-war Collectif Échec à la guerre to which the Montreal branch of the Fédération des communistes libertaires du Nord-Est (Northeastern Federation of Anarcho-Communists [NEFAC]) belongs.

The platform of the Collectif Échec à la guerre is characterized by bourgeois utopian calls for “a world of peace, based on international relations of justice, equity and solidarity,” and the “reconversion of the Canadian military industry to civilian purposes.” It also advocates the transformation of the United Nations:

“The Échec à la guerre Collective calls upon all nations of the world to firmly oppose the hijacking of the United Nations to benefit U.S. war plans or the marginalization of the UN through unilateral ‘faits accomplis’ that violate International Law and the very Charter of the UN. In this respect, we call upon the Canadian government to work towards the reinforcement of the role of the UN General Assembly in order to face the new international situation and stop U.S. military hegemony.”

How does any of this fit NEFAC’s posture of revolutionary opposition to all imperialist state powers (including the Canadian one)? Social-democratic reformists may dream about imperialist powers “reconverting” their militaries into humanitarian agencies, but revolutionaries know that only victorious workers’ revolutions around the globe will bring “world peace.” As for the UN, it is essentially an imperialist tool, as has been repeatedly demonstrated since the Korean War of the early 1950s.

A genuinely revolutionary organization would never sign its name to the pacifist drivel espoused by the Collectif Échec à la guerre. NEFAC’s willingness to participate reveals a profoundly opportunist tendency to cater to whatever is currently popular with its hoped-for audience. Any members of NEFAC who are at all serious about the goal of working-class revolution must decisively reject all social-democratic illusions about the bloody predatory system of world imperialism somehow being transformed into a mechanism for peace and social justice. Those who aspire to help the working class carry out a social revolution to uproot capitalist exploitation must begin by calling things by their right names.

Yours for Permanent Revolution,
Jordan Briggs,
for the International Bolshevik Tendency

This is the letter. Has NEFAC responded?

Devrim

Our Montreal branch? I dunno. Maybe. I doubt it though. I'm sure they have better things to do then respond to every wingnut who has a bone to pick with them.

Smash Rich Bastards
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Oct 22 2007 20:48
Flint wrote:
x357997 wrote:
OliverTwister wrote:
Right and some of them have said on here that they don't see the point to anti-electoralism.

as in campaigning against voting or are you saying that they are pro-ballot box?

As in one member didn't agree with doing a anti-electoral campaign, but the rest of his local group did, so they did an anti-electoral campaign, they got a lot of press out of it, attracted a lot of people to what they were doing because of it, adhesed many more members who joined who had been attracted initially from the anti-electoral campaign, and the member who didn't agree with it at the time speaks positively about that anti-electoral campaign.

Yeah, last I knew our Quebec branches spent all kinds of time and energy on a pretty high profile anti-electoral campaign. Pretty sure there's all sorts of material about it on our website. Of course, why would Oliver let facts get in the way of his bullshit gossip mongering?

Smash Rich Bastards
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Oct 22 2007 20:57
Devrim wrote:
It is not really an answer to the question, Flint. I have no doubt that NEFAC does not actually agree with all of that liberal nonsense. However, it would not surprise me if I saw that they had signed a statement, or had joined some organisation that had those positions.

Well... if anyone actually follows the link provided by the IBT, here is a list of endorsers:

Aide Médical pour la Palestine (AMP), Alternatives, Al Siraj Foundation, Annahda Cultural and Social Centre, Artiste pour la paix, Association Al-Hidaya, Association Al-Rissala Libano-Canadienne, Association de Culture et Héritage Libanais (LCHA), Association de Étudiante Musulman (UMSA), Association of Islamic Charitable Projects, Association des Jeunes Libanais Musulmans, Association de Musulman Canadien (MAC), Bloc Québécois (BQ), Canado Égyptien pour la démocratie (CEPD), Coalition contre la déportation des réfugié (e) s palestinien (ne) s, Centrale des services du Québec (CSQ), Centre Culturel Libanais (CCL), Centre Libanais Islamique de Montréal, Coalition pour Justice et paix au Moyen Orient (CJPME), Coalition pour Justice et paix en Palestine (CJPP), Coalition Solidarité Liban, Coalition des Tables régionales d’organismes communautaires, Congres Islamique Canadien (CIC), Conseil central de Montréal (CSN), Comité des Solidarité humanes de Chili, Confédération des syndicats nationaux (CSN), Council of Lebanese-Canadian Organization, Coalition Échec à la guerre, Fédération étudiante collégiale du Québec FECQ, Fédération de Femmes du Québec (FFQ), Fédération des infirmières et infirmiers du Québec (FIIQ), Fédération des Travailleurs et Travaileuses du Québec (FTQ), Fondation Canado Palestinien (FCP), Forum Musulman Canadien (FMC-CMF), Le Regroupement des Algériens du Canada (RAC), Ligue des Droits et Libertés, Mouvement d’Abord Solidaires, Mouvement de solidarité internationale Montréal (ISM), Musulmans canadiens pour Jérusalem (CMJ), Objection de conscience (OCVC), Palestiniens et Juifs uni (e) s (PAJU), Parole Arabe (PA), Parti Marxiste Léniniste de Québec (PMLQ), Présence musulmane (PM), Québec Solidaire (QS), Regarde Alternative Media (RAM), Regroupement des Algériens du Canada (RAC), Réseau de Vigilance, Solidarity of Palestinian Human Rights (SPHR), Table Régionale des Organismes, Communautaires Autonomes Montérégie (TROCM), Tadamon! Montréal

You see our name on there?

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Oct 22 2007 20:58
Quote:
In lots of ways the real questions are similar to the ones raised in the hands off Iran thread, do we involve ourselves in these sort of campaigns, and if so how?

I didn't think people were actually calling the content of the HOPOI statement into question though, so it's pretty much the opposite of this situation. Bait and switch, bait and switch.

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Oct 22 2007 21:19
Devrim wrote:
IBT wrote:
Yours for Permanent Revolution,
Jordan Briggs,
for the International Bolshevik Tendency

This is the letter. Has NEFAC responded?

Devrim

Well is he in Permanent Revolution or the International Bolshevik Tendency?
Make your mind up!

Flint
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Oct 22 2007 21:20
Devrim wrote:
It is not really an answer to the question, Flint. I have no doubt that NEFAC does not actually agree with all of that liberal nonsense. However, it would not surprise me if I saw that they had signed a statement, or had joined some organisation that had those positions. Likewise, I do not believe that the 'Platformists' in Turkey would start out addressing appeals to 'Patriots' on their own, but they have signed joint statements that address people with precisely those words.

In lots of ways the real questions are similar to the ones raised in the hands off Iran thread, do we involve ourselves in these sort of campaigns, and if so how?

If one looks at the very long membership list from Le Collectif Échec à la guerre, you will not find NEFAC or any of it's member groups listed. If you search the internet for "Le Collectif Échec à la guerre" and "NEFAC", first you find the IBT piece. Dig far enough, and you find Montreal NEFAC issueing a call (with le Comité Des Sans Emploi Mtl Centre et la Convergence des lutes anti-capitalistes) for an anti-capitalist contingent at a march organized by Le Collectif Échec à la guerre. Infact, the statement is worth quoting: "montrons que nous ne sommes pas seulement pour une paix utopique et sans lendemain ni pour le maintien du statu quo entre les riches et les pauvres, mais que la seule guerre qu'il faut mener est celle contre le capitalisme et les États qui le soutiennent."

Holding NEFAC responsible for a statement that a large coalition like "Le Collectif Échec à la guerre" signed on to, because some folks from NEFAC marched separately in their own bloc with their own anti-capitalist statement in a march "Le Collectif Échec à la guerre" called... is a bit of a stretch.

I concur with SRB: "Yeah, crime of crimes... they marched alongside liberals and pacifists in some anti-war demo."

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Oct 22 2007 21:21
Smash Rich Bastards wrote:
You see our name on there?

No.

Devrim wrote:
However, it would not surprise me if I saw that they had signed a statement, or had joined some organisation that had those positions.

Do you read English?

What they actually seem to be saying is that you are a part of an organisation, which has:

NBT wrote:
the anti-war Collectif Échec à la guerre to which the Montreal branch of the Fédération des communistes libertaires du Nord-Est (Northeastern Federation of Anarcho-Communists [NEFAC]) belongs.
MJ wrote:
I didn't think people were actually calling the content of the HOPOI statement into question though, so it's pretty much the opposite of this situation.

I don't think that it is opposite at all.

MJ wrote:
Bait and switch, bait and switch.

I don't understand this phrase.

Devrim

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Oct 22 2007 21:29
rebelworker wrote:
I personally feel that alo of anarchist have very kneee jerk positions on many issues (electoralism is another one), now I fall within the anarchist position on that also, but I think we have to be alot more open to pragmatic politcs. Most anarchists disagreee with me. For the record, i recenetly publicly kept my mouth shut on the electoral issue because my section took a position and i respected it, although privately I hold the right to express my beleifs.

I think you'd have to do a bit of a magic trick to make the above into :

Quote:
As in one member didn't agree with doing a anti-electoral campaign, but the rest of his local group did, so they did an anti-electoral campaign, they got a lot of press out of it, attracted a lot of people to what they were doing because of it, adhesed many more members who joined who had been attracted initially from the anti-electoral campaign, and the member who didn't agree with it at the time speaks positively about that anti-electoral campaign.

The "knee-jerk position" of anarchists on elections is usually to ignore them and work on more worthwhile activities. Rebelworker never explained what he meant, but being "open to pragmatic politics" sounds like considering electoralism to me.

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Oct 22 2007 21:33

Devrim:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bait_and_switch

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Oct 22 2007 21:36
Devrim wrote:
What they actually seem to be saying is that you are a part of an organisation, which has:

Flint has posted the membership list. They didn't join anything either. Either you and the IBT live in the same fantasyland, or you're gullible enough to be the ideal target audience for their rantings.

Flint
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Oct 22 2007 21:38
OliverTwister wrote:
rebelworker wrote:
I personally feel that alo of anarchist have very kneee jerk positions on many issues (electoralism is another one), now I fall within the anarchist position on that also, but I think we have to be alot more open to pragmatic politcs. Most anarchists disagreee with me. For the record, i recenetly publicly kept my mouth shut on the electoral issue because my section took a position and i respected it, although privately I hold the right to express my beleifs.

I think you'd have to do a bit of a magic trick to make the above into :

Quote:
As in one member didn't agree with doing a anti-electoral campaign, but the rest of his local group did, so they did an anti-electoral campaign, they got a lot of press out of it, attracted a lot of people to what they were doing because of it, adhesed many more members who joined who had been attracted initially from the anti-electoral campaign, and the member who didn't agree with it at the time speaks positively about that anti-electoral campaign.

The "knee-jerk position" of anarchists on elections is usually to ignore them and work on more worthwhile activities. Rebelworker never explained what he meant, but being "open to pragmatic politics" sounds like considering electoralism to me.

What I described is basically what happened and I don't see how one precludes the other. Regardless, Rebelworker sometimes post here and can explain himself in detail if he likes or not. Whatever he writes, it'll probably be distorted and then held against NEFAC for years to come.

Interestingly enough, NEFAC doesn't even require a member who disagrees with NEFAC on this or that issue to "keep their mouth shut", but only make it clear when stating a position the majority does not agree with that they make it clear that their position is a minority one. Which rebelworker does.

If one is looking for witches, they will always find some.

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Oct 22 2007 21:43

Now go find someone who cares what you have to say.