Libertarian

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Jacques Roux's picture
Jacques Roux
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Feb 27 2004 00:53
Libertarian

I've always had doubts about this word (most of all 'cos its like 'librarian') but i was just reading the wikipedia.org page on "Libertarian" and it gave some interesting ideas on the origin of the word:

Quote:
After the aftermath of the crushing of the Paris Commune in 1871, Anarchism and Anarchists were officially outlawed for decades so anarchists were forced to call their groups and publications by another name - hence the adoption of the French word Libertaire as an alternative term for anarchist. This is the political origin of the word.

It goes on to say that in Europe the word was used to refer to libertarian socialists while in the USA referred to individualists.

Anyway there is the whole co-option of the word 'libertarian' by the free market (dare i say 'anarcho-') capitalist movement, so in a way i can see a sense in using the word to try and take its back to its roots.

But then its roots arent really that positive, it was born out of fear of calling ourselves anarchists? Hmm it doesnt always seem like the most positive word to me... what do others think?

AlexA
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Feb 27 2004 01:13

Hmmm well I like it.

Yeah the US capitalists are trying to steal it, but they're trying to steal "anarchism" aswell - see www.anarchism.net

I think that it is broader than just anarchists, as it includes autonomists, libertarian communists, left communists, council commies, autonomist marxists, syndicalists and general PGA types. Who are basically people I (and i think most anarchists) would agree with on most things, and can work together well cos we use the same organisational forms...

It also sounds very positive, y'know - "Liberty", which I think sounds better than "anti-authoritarian", which sounds liike "i won't tidy my bedroom" kinda politics wink

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PaulMarsh
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Feb 27 2004 07:45
rkn wrote:
I've always had doubts about this word (most of all 'cos its like 'librarian')

I used to be more strongly opposed to it then I am. In the late 80s it was totally associated with Thatcherism and the even worse fringes of the Young Conservatives.

Now that has faded.

meanoldman
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Feb 27 2004 08:31

I like it. Libertarian socialism is as good a description of anarchism as you're going to get in 2 words. circle A

ClassWar
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Feb 27 2004 09:20

Note the article below which talks of a lax and libertarian regime .........

at Hendon Police College! grin

http://www.thisislondon.com/news/londonnews/articles/9375853?source=Evening%20Standard

nastyned
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Feb 27 2004 11:20
alexa wrote:
I think that it is broader than just anarchists, as it includes autonomists, libertarian communists, left communists, council commies, autonomist marxists, syndicalists and general PGA types.

Though the people that became coucil communists orginally called themselves 'left communists' when they made a complete break with bolshevism they abandoned the term.

People that still call themselves 'left communist' now see themselves as being in the bolshevik traditon and want to build vanguard parties. So they can bog off. And the biggest left commuist group, the International Communist Current, are as mad as the sparts.

knightrose
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Feb 27 2004 12:56

Socialist and communist ideas grew out of a number of different traditions. Over the years there has been a coming together of some of them and a degeneration of others. Libertarian socialist or communist seems a good way of describing people who draw similar conclusions from different starting points.

AlexA
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Feb 27 2004 13:15
nastyned wrote:
People that still call themselves 'left communist' now see themselves as being in the bolshevik traditon and want to build vanguard parties. So they can bog off. And the biggest left commuist group, the International Communist Current, are as mad as the sparts.

whoops! embarrassed

butchersapron
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Feb 27 2004 13:57

I'm more than happy to be called a libertarian or libertarian communist. I think that nicely encompassed as the approaches that are on *our side* (as mentioned above) but without suggesting any exact doctrinal purity across them.

Dhr! Teeson
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Feb 28 2004 15:29

ANARCHISM because of its ambiguity is bound to attract mentalists and sociopaths who want not creative destruction but nihilistic extatic destruction. we all know the public associations and undertones of the term, it isnt an attractive position to most uncritical people. so do anarchists engage in a bit of good old market style spin, get a make over, take of the balaklavas, show the human face of anarchy.

LIBERTARIANISM has a more acceptable face, and often deals with the same issues as anarchism, it is more attractive because the fight for liberty is recognised even by conservatives , its fucking constitutional, and so libertarians do not have to deal with the torrent of scorn and spittle spouted by authoritarians.

i'm not much bothered by names and terms and shit, i dont feel that insecure in my identity to make a big issue of being this or that, its the content of our actions that count right.

however, as unconventional as i am by nature, i still feel enormous pride for the anarchist tradition, and would feel a little bit like a traitor if i were to reject the flag around which many of my heroes rallied.

either way anarchist or libertarian, its all about freedom, and we should use everything at our disposal, regardless of its brand, in order to further freedom as a cause, to see liberty and anarchism REALISED

if your a COMMITTED anarchist cool

if your a COMMITTED libertarian cool

redmist
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Feb 28 2004 20:50

Whatever the drawbacks to the term 'libertarian' I currently accept being termed a libertarian marxist.

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Spartacus
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Mar 1 2004 16:17
Quote:
however if anyone asks me if i believe in anarchy i wont be responsible for my actions.

well you could argue that anarchism is the theoretical school of thought and anarchy is the society without authority that we're aiming for. what's wrong with that?

beanis
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Mar 10 2004 20:26

you are a fucking retarded 15 year old who wont tidy his room

beanis
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Mar 11 2004 09:45

im sorry. its because im not in a federation.

blackmasks
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Mar 11 2004 12:20

To go back to the original topic angry

I'd deffinatly call my self a libetarian. I actually sometimes have a problem with calling my self an anarchist. I dont merley want an absence of governement, but a totally new way of life. With new organisations.

And plus i think in the UK, the Libertarians are a lot more under stood than the "anarchists", probably because of our history etc..

butchersapron
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Mar 11 2004 12:46

Which libertarians are you referring to?

blackmasks
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Mar 11 2004 14:11
butchersapron wrote:
Which libertarians are you referring to?

I was thinking along the lines of the diggers, and just in general, around that time.

Augusto_Sandino
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Mar 11 2004 14:12

The whole "Dhr! Teeson" post seemed to sum it up. I've always thought that anarcho-individualists and neo-liberal anti-statists were more likely to call themselves libertarian.

And i like Libertarian Socialist better than Libertarian Marxist becuase Libertarian Marxist suggests anarchism comes from Marxism and is reliant on Karl Marx as a theorist, which it obviously isnt and doesent.

butchersapron
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Mar 11 2004 15:58

The only place where individualists and anarcho-capitalists (cough**) call themselves libertarian is in the US - everywhere else it simply means anarchist (or non-leninist communist) - even in this country - the word was coined by two anarchists in the 19th century - it's ours.

Kalashnikov_Blues
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Mar 11 2004 20:42

Actually in the US there's a super right wing party called the Libertarian Party.

Having met some of them, I would never want to be called a Libertarian.

They are however, very opposed to government involvement in day to day life.

Supposedly the US Republicans operate under the premise of less government. But I have had massive debate with Republicans and thier version (obviously) is angled towards business being freed up so that they can exploit more.

And the Libertarians are an off shoot of them, alot of Militia folk get well into the Lib Party.

beanis
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Mar 11 2004 22:06
revol68 wrote:
beanis wrote:
im sorry. its because im not in a federation.

what u on about? confused

i dont know help me!

Augusto_Sandino
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Mar 14 2004 20:41

Yeah, i was thinking of Nozick and all those american "neo liberals" when i was posting on "libertarians". I'd be happy enough to use the term in Europe without negative connotations.

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Mar 15 2004 23:54

Hmm would have thought it had more to do with concepts such as human rights, due to the use of the word liberty and its historical heritage.

Still not a bad word to use, as long as you make sure you combine it with some sort of leftist term, its best not to confuse the issue. The enemy being all forms of hierarchy not just the state and all.

Don't know any specific non-anarchist groups who define themselves as libertarian communists.

If there were it seems to make little difference to me.