DONATE NOW TO HELP UPGRADE LIBCOM.ORG

Poll - Are school-teachers in the working class?

171 posts / 0 new
Last post
Khawaga's picture
Khawaga
Offline
Joined: 7-08-06
Jul 26 2007 10:27
Quote:
I think we're just humouring yelt.

I realized that, but this is not the only thread that's basically been asking the same fucking liberal-socological question.

Jacques Roux's picture
Jacques Roux
Offline
Joined: 17-07-06
Jul 26 2007 10:34
Khawaga wrote:
I realized that, but this is not the only thread that's basically been asking the same fucking liberal-socological question.

Its all a bit RevLeft isn't it?

Maybe there are too many Americans on the boards.....

wink tongue

yelt
Offline
Joined: 22-07-07
Jul 26 2007 10:42

lem, it's not the 'job description', it's what they do. Ask anyone who went to school what that's all about.

It's not a sociological question at all. The 'argument' that they're working class because of their income level - now that really is sociological. So is an argument based on the fact that some of them feel oppressed.

Like I said, ask anyone who went to school.

I'm not going to state the obvious to horses that don't want to drink.

yelt

Steven.'s picture
Steven.
Offline
Joined: 27-06-06
Jul 26 2007 10:46
yelt wrote:
Like I said, ask anyone who went to school.

Everyone goes to school, you absolute tool.

yelt
Offline
Joined: 22-07-07
Jul 26 2007 10:53
Quote:
Everyone goes to school, you absolute tool.

No they don't. Just think about it for a moment, would you?

And you follow up your ridiculous statement with a rude insult too. Do you really think I'm such an idiot I'm not careful about what I type? (That I make up things about Makhno and Augustus John too, maybe, or the 'guy from Bristol's' father?)

Like I said, ask anyone who went to school.

Yes, that would cover most people in the UK or even Europe and possibly the world. Didn't you get my point? Who's the tool again?

But I will amend it. Ask anyone who went to school...

...except a school-teacher. They're about the only section of the population who enjoyed it most of the time they were at school. So much that the cunts want to go back there as soon as they leave. Fucking strange or what?

yelt

Joseph Kay's picture
Joseph Kay
Offline
Joined: 14-03-06
Jul 26 2007 10:53
John. wrote:
Everyone goes to school, you absolute tool.

stick to the djing and leave the mcing to professionals yeah?

Refused's picture
Refused
Offline
Joined: 28-09-04
Jul 26 2007 11:04

John. wears mad jewelz and he follows no rules.

Khawaga's picture
Khawaga
Offline
Joined: 7-08-06
Jul 26 2007 11:06
Quote:
...except a school-teacher. They're about the only section of the population who enjoyed it most of the time they were at school. So much that the cunts want to go back there as soon as they leave. Fucking strange or what?

A lot of the school teachers I know (friends and my old teachers) got into teaching because they needed a job, they applied for a teaching job thinking it would be temporary and then ended up being teachers and hating it. Though, of course some people enjoy it a lot, and why the fuck is that a problem?

I've been on picket lines with striking teachers, does that make me a class traitor?

Again, yelt. What is you analysis of class or class analysis?

Steven.'s picture
Steven.
Offline
Joined: 27-06-06
Jul 26 2007 11:16

I would really like to know yelt's answer to these:
1) If teachers are anti-working class, what about uni lecturers?
2) What about teachers from 16-18?
3) Teachers of voluntary subject?
4) Private tutors?
5) Parents who teach and discipline their children

Refused's picture
Refused
Offline
Joined: 28-09-04
Jul 26 2007 11:20

Parents are teh eb1L h0m3 copz. sad

Coconut man
Offline
Joined: 13-02-04
Jul 26 2007 11:27

Am I the only person who thinks that the identity of Yelt may have been created by a regular member for the purpose of satire? "Medical cops"? Come on!

Steven.'s picture
Steven.
Offline
Joined: 27-06-06
Jul 26 2007 11:41
Coconut man wrote:
Am I the only person who thinks that the identity of Yelt may have been created by a regular member for the purpose of satire? "Medical cops"? Come on!

Nope - check out openly classist. These jokers are for real.

Anarchia's picture
Anarchia
Offline
Joined: 18-03-06
Jul 26 2007 12:25
Quote:
Ask anyone who went to school...

...except a school-teacher. They're about the only section of the population who enjoyed it most of the time they were at school. So much that the cunts want to go back there as soon as they leave.

I went to school and hated it. That doesn't mean teachers aren't working class, just that the education system that currently exists over here (and I'm sure in England, the USA etc etc) is deeply fucked.

I go to the bank sometimes to get money out or deposit it, I hate that. That doesn't mean bank tellers aren't working class, just that the banking system is fucked.

I go to the supermarket to buy food and hate it. That doesn't mean checkout workers, shelve stockers etc aren't working class, just that I find any system that makes people pay money in order to get food they need to survive completely ridiculous.

Khawaga's picture
Khawaga
Offline
Joined: 7-08-06
Jul 26 2007 12:38

I think it's about time to plug our resident Brecht - Jef Costello. One piece of poetry cobbled together from the Bankteller thread...

Quote:
banning bank tellers

insurance companies

weapons factories

to build the wall in the West Bank

Then why aren't you calling for supermarket checkout workers to be banned?

And then NEFAC came for me, and there was no one left to speak out for me.

Rob Ray's picture
Rob Ray
Offline
Joined: 6-11-03
Jul 26 2007 12:38
Quote:
Who's the tool again?

Given that everyone here went to school and to my certain knowledge the vast majority have working class and non-educational backgrounds (in fact you can check their profiles), yet almost all agree with John, I'd say things aren't looking good Yelt.

You can of course undermine all of us by coming up with some studies as to living conditions, wages, property ownership, class action etc, showing the sector to be made up entirely of a bunch of independently wealthy reactionaries. Please feel free. Any time you feel like.

Or, if you don't actually mean working class but more like class collaborators, some evidence that they fulfil a primary function of undermining self-organisation in the rest of the working class - you know, teaching strike breaking etc, as opposed to, for example, building their own (often militant) unions, having an above-average incidence of leftists in their ranks, a history of forming their own educational establishments for the improvement of the working class as a whole, continually putting pressure from below on governments for more progressive practices... Oaxaca ring any bells?

Again, in your own time.

yelt
Offline
Joined: 22-07-07
Jul 26 2007 14:42

Asher, just think about it - how many times does a bank teller shit on you? Anyway you need to distinguish between bank tellers who just process whatever you've asked them todo, and e.g. the cunts who try to get you into debt, using all sorts of trickery, who are increasingly likely to pick on anyone who walks into a British bank.

It would besilly to compare the time you have spent at school to the time you have spent in banks. (Note, I said 'compare to', not 'compare with').

It's hardly a profound critique to say the 'education system' is 'fucked'. I assume you are not seeking to reform it, or to provide or create an alternative way of doing what it does, right? Social relations and social institutions are made of social relations - relations between people. Start from there when looking at school etc.

yelt

knightrose
Offline
Joined: 8-11-03
Jul 26 2007 14:47

Teachers occupy a strange position in society. Part educator, part social controller. We go into it to do the former. It's actually quite a decent job. You get to meet an awful lot of really interesting people and learn a lot from them. And you help them learn to do things like read, write, express themselves, add up, and so on.
Teachers are workers. I just don't expect them to ever be amongst the most radical or revolutionary in society.

Rob Ray's picture
Rob Ray
Offline
Joined: 6-11-03
Jul 26 2007 14:52

I can honestly say I’ve never been shit on by a teacher. Perhaps I went to a more hygienic school than you?

Okay so it’s the job you’re objecting to here, NOT the class. Meaning we have to go back to basics. Do you object to…

- people who work in marketing (selling you stuff which gets you into debt)
- people who work in McDonalds (selling you junk food which is bad for you)
- people who work in the council (perpetuating the cycle of community dependency)
- people who work in the media (reinforcing ideologies of control)
- people who work in transport (polluting the air)
- people who work in the nuclear/coal/gas industries (again, pollution, centralised power supply)

All of the above could be considered as counter to a free society using the strictest rules, but who, exactly, are you going to be relying on for your revolution if you exclude them all?

Also, still no evidence as per my previous request I see.

yelt
Offline
Joined: 22-07-07
Jul 26 2007 14:52

Goodness Saii you are so full of shit. Almost all of the concepts that appear important to you are completely fucked.

'come up with studies' - I've told you where critique comes from

'reactionaries' - do you actually know what you mean by this term, so beloved of stupid lefties?

'fulfil a primary function' - oh fuck off, I'm no fan of Max Weber, I'm talking about working class experience, you idiot

I know teachers have an 'above-average' incidence of e.g. Trots in their midst, more so than say, office cleaners, and certainly more so than coppers. So fucking what?

As for unions, for fuck's sake, try wising up some time.

'progressive'... ah yes, I thought someone who chucks the term 'reactionary' about in such a lefty way would be into stuff that was 'progressive'.

We don't have much common ground, do we.

'In your own time', indeed! Imagine being so stupid and so patronising at the same time...no, wait a minute, it's quite common, especially in certain strata...

yelt

yelt
Offline
Joined: 22-07-07
Jul 26 2007 14:56

Saii, your head is full of shit, and you are not 'going back to basics'. The basics are what working class people experience at school, and it is from that that a revolutionary critique of school comes.

This appears hard for you to understand.

Your stupid sarcastic would-be literal interpretation of my talking about getting shat on by school-teachers indicates that you are running away from the issue entirely. You need to ask yourself some questions, not me.

yelt

Steven.'s picture
Steven.
Offline
Joined: 27-06-06
Jul 26 2007 15:00

Hey o great arbiter-of-working-classness-who's-never-worked-a-single-day-in-your-life, how about your answer my questions here:
1) If teachers are anti-working class, what about uni lecturers?
2) What about teachers from 16-18?
3) Teachers of voluntary subject?
4) Private tutors?
5) Parents who teach and discipline their children

yelt
Offline
Joined: 22-07-07
Jul 26 2007 15:01

Stick your questions up your arse until you show me you're worthy of my time by taking some first steps to thinking for yourself, and apologise for your behaviour so far.

yelt

Anarchia's picture
Anarchia
Offline
Joined: 18-03-06
Jul 26 2007 15:05
yelt wrote:
how many times does a bank teller shit on you?

Literally? None, thankfully. I'm not into scatology. I've also never had a teacher shit on me.

If you don't mean literally (but who knows, given the amount you hassle John. for not talking in literal terms and using sarcasm), then I've certainly had teachers treat me poorly - but then again, the same goes for bank tellers, supermarket checkout workers, factory workers, parents, friends and pretty much any category you care to name. I've also had teachers who treated me fantastically and who I learnt huge amounts from, both in terms of raw facts/knowledge and in terms of personality traits.

yelt wrote:
who are increasingly likely to pick on anyone who walks into a British bank.

Lucky I don't live in Britain then, and have never been into a British bank. For the record, in all the times I've been into a bank over here, I've never had someone attempt to give me a credit card, or get me into debt some other way.

yelt wrote:
I assume you are not seeking to reform it

You assume correctly.

Quote:
to provide or create an alternative way of doing what it does

Depends on how you define "what it does". For sure, in an anarcho-communist society, I would expect (and desire) that any community I was involved in has some form of community education (both for children and adults). It certainly wouldn't be compulsory, but I would imagine a large number of people would be involved in it.

Rob Ray's picture
Rob Ray
Offline
Joined: 6-11-03
Jul 26 2007 15:06

Don’t be rude Yelt. I’m not running away from anything, I’m asking you to justify your position.

You have yet to show me any evidence for your claim that teachers are inherently against the working class, and as I am trying to point out and you seem to be missing entirely, your tirade against teachers is not taking into account that a vast array of jobs, to one extent or another, support the status quo – this is not a justification in itself for condemnation. I know some excellent comrades who have worked extremely hard in the cause of class struggle who have done or do also work in education. I have also already cited an example of teachers being a leading factor in the recent struggle in Oaxaca. You however have offered no reasoned defence of your viewpoint.

Calm down, be rational. Then answer my questions.

knightrose
Offline
Joined: 8-11-03
Jul 26 2007 15:12

Yelt, you tell John

Quote:
Stick your questions up your arse until you show me you're worthy of my time by taking some first steps to thinking for yourself, and apologise for your behaviour so far.

Yet you think it's quite OK to write this on the other thread about Wildcat.

Quote:
The teacher issue was a big thing for my mate from Notty. The teachers didn't socialise with the rest of us in the heavy dope-smoking sessions that went on (not something I'd engage in now, but I did then). These sessions happened both after meetings (which I didn't go to), and when people used to meet up from different towns. They couldn't even be called friends of most of the comrades they were supposed to be 'organising' stuff with. They only met my mates at meetings, never socially, and never to do anything in the class struggle, never to go to meet strikers or rioters, or carry out acts of sabotage etc. I doubt they ever did any of these things anyway. They seemed like people of the past even then.

Which is just plain not true, apart from the teacher bit being important to the Notty. The teachers you com plain about lived in Manchester, your association was with Nottingham. Which probably explains why they mostly only met up at meetings. And I know for a fact that the two people you are complaining about did go on picket lines. If you start speading shit, you're gpoing to have it thrown back at you.

thugarchist's picture
thugarchist
Offline
Joined: 26-11-06
Jul 26 2007 15:38

Soooo... let me get this straight. School sucks and kids hate having to go for the most part. So the workers who are also forced to go aren't working class because school sucks and kids generally don't like it?

yelt
Offline
Joined: 22-07-07
Jul 26 2007 15:53

Knightrose, throw what you like.

I am waiting to hear what you say about whether 'Bristol guy', with the army father who was one-time head of the royal aeronautical college in some Gulf state, probably Abu Dhabi, admits it or not. Personally I think he will. I don't recall him being dishonest. A dilettante, but not dishonest.

(I did, however, know a comrade from Iran who knew 'Bristol guy' at you-know-what university. 'Bristol guy', as you know, used to be a Tory, then a Liberal, then Labour, then SWP, then anarchist, before becoming an ultraleftist. Talk about a politics addiction! Anyway the guy from Iran, when he heard (in London!) that 'Bristol guy' was on the scene (in Nottingham!), was adamant that 'Bristol' guy shouldn't find out that he was too. It was an 'oh my god, not THAT politico nutcase', kind of thing. I never did find out what part of the political spectrum 'Bristol guy' had been in at the time. Tory maybe - that would be funny!)

'Going to picket lines' - yeah, I don't doubt these guys, who were basically lefties through and through (as you are too, in my opinion) did that.

Saii, I am rude to you because I do not think you are really trying to learn anything. I think the way you write indicates that.

yelt

yelt
Offline
Joined: 22-07-07
Jul 26 2007 15:56

thugarchist, school-teachers are not forced to go to school. They could jack it in and go and get a job in a restaurant or busk or something.

Confusing screws with prisoners. Wow, how revolutionary.

Do you know what it means to be 'forced' to do something?

Rob Ray's picture
Rob Ray
Offline
Joined: 6-11-03
Jul 26 2007 15:57

You mean the way I keep asking for fact to back up assertion? Yes I can see how that would seem like I want to remain ignorant.

cantdocartwheels's picture
cantdocartwheels
Offline
Joined: 15-03-04
Jul 26 2007 16:01
yelt wrote:
thugarchist, school-teachers are not forced to go to school. They could jack it in and go and get a job in a restaurant or busk or something.

Do you know what it means to be 'forced' to do something?

Is this a really long drawn out parody, or are you actually this retarded?

Anyway why hasn't this shit been banned yet?