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Poll - Are school-teachers in the working class?

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Joseph Kay's picture
Joseph Kay
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Jul 26 2007 16:01
yelt wrote:
Knightrose, throw what you like.

I am waiting to hear what you say about whether 'Bristol guy', with the army father who was one-time head of the royal aeronautical college in some Gulf state, probably Abu Dhabi, admits it or not. Personally I think he will. I don't recall him being dishonest. A dilettante, but not dishonest.

(I did, however, know a comrade from Iran who knew 'Bristol guy' at you-know-what university. 'Bristol guy', as you know, used to be a Tory, then a Liberal, then Labour, then SWP, then anarchist, before becoming an ultraleftist. Talk about a politics addiction! Anyway the guy from Iran, when he heard (in London!) that 'Bristol guy' was on the scene (in Nottingham!), was adamant that 'Bristol' guy shouldn't find out that he was too. It was an 'oh my god, not THAT politico nutcase', kind of thing. I never did find out what part of the political spectrum 'Bristol guy' had been in at the time. Tory maybe - that would be funny!)

'Going to picket lines' - yeah, I don't doubt these guys, who were basically lefties through and through (as you are too, in my opinion) did that.

Saii, I am rude to you because I do not think you are really trying to learn anything. I think the way you write indicates that.

yelt

it's like an anarcho version of Heat grin

yelt
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Jul 26 2007 16:04

No I do not mean that, saii. I mean what I said - the way you write.

yelt

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Steven.
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Jul 26 2007 16:04
yelt wrote:
Confusing screws with prisoners. Wow, how revolutionary.

Yeah teachers are screws. There was this big scandal about teachers making black pupils and white pupils fight, and betting on it. Those teacher fucks.

You're not even saying what you mean by teacher. And you're refusing to answer my questions because it would show up your ideas to be as inconsistent as they are moronic.

yelt wrote:
thugarchist, school-teachers are not forced to go to school. They could jack it in and go and get a job in a restaurant or busk or something.

Yep, like before, on yer bike! Wadical man.

I wonder what yelt's private school teachers did to him that was so bad.

j.rogue
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Jul 26 2007 16:05
yelt wrote:
thugarchist, school-teachers are not forced to go to school. They could jack it in and go and get a job in a restaurant or busk or something.

Confusing screws with prisoners. Wow, how revolutionary.

Do you know what it means to be 'forced' to do something?

"Busk"? Are you fucking serious?!
And stuff your idiotic comparison of teachers to screws. Seriously.

Also, 1) and 4).

yelt
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Jul 26 2007 16:16

You are so thick, John, always parodying my position, saying stuff like I think school-teachers eat babies for dinner. If you were paying attention, you'd realise I actually mostly say 'school-teacher' rather than 'teacher', and why do you fuck about saying I don't define 'teacher' when we all know exactly what a school-teacher is? A school-teacher is one of those individuals who stand behind the desk and run classes when you're a kid going to a school. Is that clear enough, you time-waster?

Do you understand the concept of having a revolutionary critique based on working class experience, one's own and others? It seems not. I would say you are a politico, through and through.

I was going to say you probably don't grasp what divides us, but actually I think in some way you do, because you have encountered other people who talk sense, such places as 'Openly Classist', it seems.

Curiously your website published a superb agitational leaflet from three or four years ago, by some 'underground' postal workers. Nice one. But I don't think you realise what you're publishing, because people who go for the sorts of ideas put forward in that tract do not go for your politics. It is either/or. The more that stuff like that gets taken on board, the more it's bye-bye to your politics as something that might possibly draw newcomers. Good! You might as well have stayed in the SPGB (or joined it years ago, if you were never in it).

yelt

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Rob Ray
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Jul 26 2007 16:19

I’m writing slightly more harshly than I would otherwise, but that’s because I disagree with you. I am willing to be swayed by a decent argument.

So far however, your argument has consisted of saying that teachers are jailers for kids, saying you know a few who you didn’t like (I know a few who I do) and that the educational system is shite (well duh, but so is the media and I repeat, do you condemn printers for working in it?). None of these are convincing, and you are only backing them up with your personal experience, which is a flawed concept and clashes with my own experiences, which include various teachers who were anything but jailers and who I respect a great deal for helping me learn.

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Steven.
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Jul 26 2007 17:54
yelt wrote:
You are so thick, John, always parodying my position, saying stuff like I think school-teachers eat babies for dinner.

If there's anyone on libcom who doesn't need parodying, it's you.

Quote:
If you were paying attention, you'd realise I actually mostly say 'school-teacher' rather than 'teacher', and why do you fuck about saying I don't define 'teacher' when we all know exactly what a school-teacher is?

Well for starters you slagged off my girlfriend, who's a media worker teaching some inner city kids about film making in their holidays. So you seem like quite a confused individual - about your own genitals as well as the world at large.

Quote:
A school-teacher is one of those individuals who stand behind the desk and run classes when you're a kid going to a school. Is that clear enough, you time-waster?

Not really - what's wrong with what my gf's doing then?

And what about school teachers from 16-18 year olds? When they are there because they want to be, not because they have to be?

Quote:
Do you understand the concept of having a revolutionary critique based on working class experience, one's own and others? It seems not. I would say you are a politico, through and through.

Yes, I'm the one who's spent my whole life as a lefty drop out, inherited money and not done a day's work, ever. That's a very normal working class experience you've had.

Quote:
I was going to say you probably don't grasp what divides us, but actually I think in some way you do, because you have encountered other people who talk sense, such places as 'Openly Classist', it seems.

I don't think they'd think much of you being a private school boy.

Quote:
Curiously your website published a superb agitational leaflet from three or four years ago, by some 'underground' postal workers. Nice one. But I don't think you realise what you're publishing, because people who go for the sorts of ideas put forward in that tract do not go for your politics. It is either/or. The more that stuff like that gets taken on board, the more it's bye-bye to your politics as something that might possibly draw newcomers. Good! You might as well have stayed in the SPGB (or joined it years ago, if you were never in it).

I thought there were some serious flaws in that leaflet, like arguing against mass meetings. Anyway what would you know about workplace struggle, you've never had a job! Typical anarchoid loser.

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thugarchist
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Jul 26 2007 20:54
yelt wrote:
thugarchist, school-teachers are not forced to go to school. They could jack it in and go and get a job in a restaurant or busk or something.

Confusing screws with prisoners. Wow, how revolutionary.

Do you know what it means to be 'forced' to do something?

Yeah. Or they can be real revolutionaries and eat out of the trash or something.

So the structure and performance of jobs under capitalism are free market choices now? The act or desire to educate is the same as the act or desire to imprison and dehumanize people? Are you fucking nuts?

Feighnt
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Jul 26 2007 22:43
yelt wrote:

Saii, I am rude to you because I do not think you are really trying to learn anything. I think the way you write indicates that.

god, you sound like SUCH a teacher right there.

still working class, though. tongue (well, teachers are, i dont know what you do for a living)

btw, was looking at your profile - why do you claim that *listening to music and watching tv* are such hideously capitalism-submissive things, but you seem quite fine with watching movies? neutral

petey
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Jul 26 2007 22:50
Quote:
A school-teacher is one of those individuals who stand behind the desk and run classes when you're a kid going to a school.

ah i must not be one, as i circulate.

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Steven.
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Jul 26 2007 22:54

Look at these middle class fascist bastards here too newyawka:
http://libcom.org/news/oaxaca-teachers-hold-firm-against-their-union-leaders-24102006

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thugarchist
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Jul 26 2007 23:00

If it wasn't for some of the awesome teachers I lucked out having growing up I'd be dead or in prison. I don't know how to even begin to comprehend their role in my life as class-enemies. Its bullshit.

lem
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Jul 26 2007 23:21
lem wrote:
admin - abuse deleted, continue and you'll get a ban

Comrade!

eta: christ, i guess my insults must just be more powerful than i thought

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Bob Savage
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Jul 26 2007 23:43

This might just be the worst thread I've ever read. I'm still really hoping it's not serious.

1) and 4). Importantly is the answer you missed out: "why the fuck are you asking this?" 'Cos that's my choice.

lem
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Jul 26 2007 23:47

anyway i observe that as a graduate i wouldn't want to be a teacher. but lot's of folks do. i don't buy this idea that there are good teachers so teachers are not middle class at all - there are "good" doctors/police//pretty much anything except politicians.
i myself couldn't begin to say until someone says what the m-classes "are" - people that will slow down the spread of communist ideas? people that can't be radicalized outside work? a social democrat influence? more likely to be "activists"? or what yelt?

i for one welcome yelt - it's nice to have a different take on the boards [even if she is slightly insane ;)]

lem
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Jul 26 2007 23:48
Bob Savage wrote:
This might just be the worst thread I've ever read. I'm still really hoping it's not serious.

1) and 4). Importantly is the answer you missed out: "why the fuck are you asking this?" 'Cos that's my choice.

what's so silly is youse would have all taken the idea seriously 2 years ago? what happened?!

eta: oh yeah - you pwned the activist scene roll eyes

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Bob Savage
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Jul 26 2007 23:56

hey I used to talk leftie politics with a teacher backwhen I was 16. and he was into chomsky. don't drag ME into this, i've ALWAYS been the coolest.

lem
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Jul 27 2007 00:02
Quote:
've ALWAYS been the coolest.

cool

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Anarchia
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Jul 27 2007 04:16

The thing I love most about this is that its brought the UK and the USA posters together, united in laughing at yelt wink

lem
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Jul 27 2007 04:48
Bob Savage wrote:
hey I used to talk leftie politics with a teacher backwhen I was 16. and he was into chomsky. don't drag ME into this, i've ALWAYS been the coolest.

i meant libcommers in general fwiw.

shadowgirl
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Jul 27 2007 09:59

This comment has been moved http://libcom.org/forums/libcommunity/some-encounters-english-wildcat-ultralefty-teachers-1980s#comment-214598">here.

Deezer
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Jul 27 2007 10:49

1

(but y'know I quite like yelt)

fort-da game
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Jul 29 2007 08:03

2.

The only reason I see to include teachers within the working class would be if you were contemplating the proletariat as some sort of political movement which must involve everyone on the assumption that everyone has an interest in living under communism. I think this perspective confuses before and after formations of subjectivity in relation to revolution. Teachers are plainly employed at the level of social reproduction, what they produce is essentially ideological.

Most class struggle anarchists nowadays view communism as a matter of the management of society by the working class... for this reason they want to define the proletariat as widely as possible so to better imagine the taking over of the complexity of society. The problem with this approach is the incipient leftism of its lack of critique of forms and roles. For the left, the proletariat is not a problem that must be abolished but has a continued role in ‘socialism’ or whatever it is called. However, because the proletariat is structurally incapable of running society (i.e. it is a subjected form), it must be ideologically expanded to include managerial sections of the economy who will perform the co-ordination role. By a series of implications other areas of life also become non-problematic and are seen to be acceptable atr (communism becomes only a matter of taking over what presently exists): capitalist technology becomes unproblematic, as does the productive mode, as do nuclear power stations, as do prisons and the police. In fact, there is nothing wrong with capitalist production except the production of surplus value, and that the workers are not in control of production. Communism therefore is exactly the same as capitalism, our lives will be exactly the same, except that the workers (basically everyone) will be giving the orders, we will work less, and this will be more rational and things will be better (by implication life is ok under capitalism but communism is the historic progressive step forward out of the contradictions between profit and provision).

I can see why anarchists adopt this position, i.e. they want to appeal to people, they want to build a political movement and not seem too extreme – but it seems to me that they define the proletariat so widely that it actually loses any definition and they also lose all critique of capitalism (on exactly the same terms as the left mislays its critique). What is forgotten is the critique of experience of alienation. If you begin from alienated experience then you are bound to travel in the opposite direction to that proposed by ideas of self-management and working class control... the proletariat becomes a subject form that must be abolished and not perpetuated indefinitely. The implication of this is that communism is the transformation of all roles, of production, technologies, prisons, police workers and teachers.

Whilst I accept that teachers and all social managers are proletarianised I do not think that they belong to the proletariat, they do not share the same relation to production, they do not have the same interest as productive workers... teachers' main struggle with capitalism is to maintain their position in society. This has nothing to with my opinion of teachers, who are often much nicer as people than almost any other section of society, nor am I against teachers ‘being’ anarchists’, I just don’t think they have a revolutionary role and I would hate to see this section of society ‘naturally’ dominating proletarian formations during social crises and thereby reproducing class hierarchy. As to the rest of the proletariat, I now think that in the UK it has shrunk quite considerably and perhaps comprises something in the scale of perhaps a million workers. I say this after directly witnessing life without running water for a week with threats to electricity supply... it seems to me that there are now a very small number of people who are both proletarian (antagonistic to capital) and also in a position to ‘turn off’ society’s taps.

p.

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Joseph Kay
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Jul 29 2007 09:03
Fort-da game wrote:
For the left, the proletariat is not a problem that must be abolished but has a continued role in ‘socialism’ or whatever it is called. However, because the proletariat is structurally incapable of running society (i.e. it is a subjected form), it must be ideologically expanded to include managerial sections of the economy

that's not what anyone's really arguing, people are saying teachers are proletarian because they're alienated wage slaves whose only structural power is not that of management but over kids - and presumably parents aren't all bourgeois. i'm pretty sure most people here see the proletariat as a negative category which muct negate itself too. defining the proletariat as "productive workers" as you do however is miles from this, lapsing back into the value fetish of official CP orthodoxy seeing the proletariat as a positive category - hence you end up saying only 1 in 60 people in the UK are proletarian and thus the rest of us unproductive workers aren't 'antagonistic to capital' confused

j.rogue
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Jul 29 2007 15:15

Joe Sacco drew it, it must be true

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Khawaga
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Jul 29 2007 15:22

What Sacco comic are those pages from? Have never seen it, thought I'd read most of his stuff.

j.rogue
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Jul 29 2007 15:41

"From the Folks Who Brought You the Weekend." He illustrated it.

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Khawaga
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Jul 29 2007 17:47

cheers, will look it up.

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daniel
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Jul 29 2007 18:23

Yes, obviously. We need people to teach kids stuff. It is a productive service. In my book, anybody providing a productive service or a needed and useful product is working class. From bin men to hookers to uni teachers to auto mechanics to rap stars to scientists to peasants. They're all gonna have different conciousness, of course, and I wouldn't put my money on Britney Spears for revolutionary potential, but hey. If girls can't do slutty dances to awful pop music it ain't my revolution.

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daniel
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Jul 29 2007 18:26

Is this "yelt" guy taking the piss or is that Andy Anderson or son on crack? I read the profile. Probably the son of a captain of industry riddled with shame and self-loathing. Wake up and smell the coffee mate, the "middle class" is dead.