What The Hell Is Ontological Anarchy???

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LeighGionaire
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Mar 5 2004 00:22
What The Hell Is Ontological Anarchy???
Quote:
Hakim Bey's term for overcoming Taoism's excessive passivity and withdrawal. He feels that to be really different invites repression by the Establishment. One should not think of oneself as a Liberal, but as a criminal.

eek Is this a piss take?

http://deoxy.org/hakim/ontologicalanarchy.htm

Augusto_Sandino
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Mar 5 2004 10:37

Ontology was like anthropology, the study of human beings. Ontologists used to study "primative" people in Africa and stuff, in the 19th century, i think. Anyway, with the rise of sociology, physcology, anthropological science, Ontology became a bit old and discredited... Very Nineteenth century, and patronising to foreign cultures. I think thats what Ontology is anyway.

Augusto_Sandino
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Mar 5 2004 10:44

But yeah, pile of crap. I dont understand what he's getting at in that extract, i bet alot of other people dont either, if we dont understand were never going to put it into practice!

captainmission
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Mar 5 2004 12:42

ontology is the philosophy concerned with the nature of being.

Think the article is basically saying we should abandond using abstractions and theroy and instead just be anarchists

Augusto_Sandino
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Mar 5 2004 19:40

Oh right. That makes a bit more useful i suppose. It's sort of Post Anarchy then.

celtic67
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Mar 6 2004 21:04

I quite like a lot of hakim bey, especially "boycott cop culture" but yeah it is hippy shit. I always think he talks about anarchy as if he's somehow trying to get you into bed with him.

"The only force significant enough to facilitate our act of creation seems to be desire, or as Charles Fourier called it, "Passion." Just as Chaos and Eros (along with Earth and Old Night) are Hesiod's first deities, so too no human endeavor occurs outside their cosmogeneous circle of attraction. "

yeah right mate stop rubbing my leg.....

daemonic
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Mar 7 2004 21:09

It's a bit depressing to see thought-provoking stuff written of as 'hippy bollocks'. Most anarchists I've met have a world-view that comes straight out of the nineteenth century, and don't recognise any liberatory potential in post-modernism, quantum physics or any other ideas that question the nature of 'Reality'. The so-called Enlightenment (as quoted approvingly by Murray read-only-my-Bookchin) was a product of the same process that produced Capitalism & Science: it ain't a gonna show us the Way Out.

And that Eros stuff, i know what you mean... friend Hakim does kinda drool sometimes; but i'd hold to the basic point that Eros (long suppressed by Reason) should be part of an anarchist insurrection...

meanoldman
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Mar 7 2004 22:53
Quote:
It's a bit depressing to see thought-provoking stuff written of as 'hippy bollocks'. Most anarchists I've met have a world-view that comes straight out of the nineteenth century, and don't recognise any liberatory potential in post-modernism, quantum physics or any other ideas that question the nature of 'Reality'.

What is the 'liberatory potential in quantum physics'?

meanoldman *student of quantum physics, among other things*

captainmission
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Mar 8 2004 12:20
revol68 wrote:
swear to fuck once ive ressurected the Friends of Durruti and the Kronstadt insurgents we're heading round to beat the living shit outta Hakem Bey, John Zerzan and anyother new age hippies disguised in black!!!

Do you think revol68's anger has anything to do with repressed erotic impulses? Maybe a couple of hours in an orgone chamber would reprogram his desiring machines? tongue

nastyned
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Mar 8 2004 15:31

Nah, they're just not very tolerant of people talking bollocks.

Vaneigemappreci...
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Mar 8 2004 16:24

''situationism devoid of the proletariat is complete and utter bollox''

you know theres no such thing as situationism!

But supposing there was 'situationism' without the proletariat would be like 'marxism' without the proletariat

AlexA
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Joined: 16-09-03
Mar 8 2004 16:41
captainmission wrote:
Do you think revol68's anger has anything to do with repressed erotic impulses? Maybe a couple of hours in an orgone chamber would reprogram his desiring machines? tongue

I reckon he's the funniest poster at the moment grin - although new entries for March welcome

daem0nik
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Mar 11 2004 00:36
revol68 wrote:
this shit gets me so angry!

so, pretty angry eh...

well i'm pretty angry too, and so are a lot of the anarchos i know

and why not - there's certainly enough shit and injustice in the world to justify it

only i know for myself a lot of the anger is covering up the pain that i feel when i see all this suffering, and it's also covering feelings of helplessness...

I used to do hardcore politics, along the lines of 'fuck the hippy talk, what we need to do is kick some heads in'. I'm not saying it was a mistake, especially as far as fighting fascism was concerned - but it never help me overcome my own feelings of seperation - and surely seperation and isolation supports The System.

captainmission wrote:
Do you think revol68's anger has anything to do with repressed erotic impulses? Maybe a couple of hours in an orgone chamber would reprogram his desiring machines?

well i've never tried an orgone machine myself smile but i think you've got a point: Reich's thing about 'character armour' was that it was a defence against feeling & experiencing too much.

Anyone read Maurice Brinton's 'The Irrational in Politics'? i think that draws a lot on Reich.

revol68 wrote:
and anyway the point is not to reverse the enlightenment but rather to go beyond it

agreed smile

revol68 wrote:
a return the irrational is not liberation it is mysticism rather like the bollox that sub Focaultian lil hippy fuck Hakem Bey dresses up as discourse!!

are you so sure about the negativity of the irrational and the mystic?

the irrational interests me because i don't think basis of the status quo is rational, & i don't think people's deepest motivations spring from rational analysis. so my guess is that any real change to the world is going to involve the irrational in a pretty big way...

a lot of anarchists are dismissive of mysticism, but i want a deeper sense of connection and meaning in my life than i get from political analysis. what i've found so far in mysticism is only 'mysterious' in the sense that it can't really be summed up or defined in words. the feelings themselves are very clear.

some great moments in history have been motivated by that kind of sense, for example the Diggers & Ranters.

revol68 wrote:
and im sorry but im fed up with twats goin on about quantam phsysics in relation to politcis as most of it is uneducated dribble (not the physics but the attempts to relate it to sociological debates).

ah well... experimental particle physics used to be my day job smile so i'm maybe more familiar with the theories. you're right that in strict terms quantum mechanics is a physical theory and not a sociology. But the point is that quantum mechanics is a scientific theory with the potential to undermine science itself.

meanoldman wrote:
What is the 'liberatory potential in quantum physics'?

hmm... for starters, how about it undermines the mind-matter divide, plus it has experimentally proved that 'everything is connected'. (Aargh! hippy nonsense justified scientifically!)

Quantum mechanics (QM) only deals in probabilities until the moment a measurement is made by an observer - in other words, what we call reality only pops up when there's a consciousness involved. This reverses the whole history of science - keeping the observer out of the picture. Descartes split mind & body but QM says they're inextricably linked.

Why's this liberatory? Well, it undermines orthodox science, which emerged as a method alongside mercantile capitalism and lends it a lot of it's legitimacy. And systems fall when they hit a crisis of legitimacy.

More than that, it suggests the nature of reality is participatory, that we are all inextricably immersed in the world and co-active in it's creation. It's an ontology (oh shit, that word) where we're not isolated and seperated, but players in a larger pattern.

revol68 wrote:
can anyone imagine making this shit relevant to a single mother or someone supporting kids in a shitty job. The biggest pile of petite bourgeois drivel!!

yeah well, maybe you underestimate the needs of those of us working in shitty jobs and supporting kids.

i can imagine *trying* to make this relevant, that's why i'm posting here....

have you come across maslow's hierarchy of need? a pyramid that says that physical needs must be satisfied before things like 'esteem' & 'self-actualisation'. i always that's mostly crap (& certainly doesn't explain the best in politics...)