ACAB? are all cops bastards? or are some decent?

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Skips
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Apr 20 2009 21:01
ACAB? are all cops bastards? or are some decent?

In an anarchist world won't we need some type of scaled down police or defense group? To be honest all the police I have been in contact with have been absolute cunts, the ones who thought they were doing me a favour were also dicks.

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Choccy
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Apr 20 2009 21:05

If you really WANT to do it you're a dick.
And even you're just doing it for an easy paycheck, and aren't a complete cunt, a few years in it undoubtebly turns you into one.

martinh
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Apr 20 2009 21:11

Some cops probably are decent but that's not the point.
Our problem with the police as anarchists is twofold. Firstly, there is the issue of the "police function" - who deals with the fallout from disputes. Our argument is that it should be the responsibility of all.

The other issue is that they are instituionalised. No matter how good individual coppers might be, they are part of the chain of command and are only as humane as the commands they receive.

Regards,

Martin

Skips
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Apr 20 2009 21:12
Choccy wrote:
If you really WANT to do it you're a dick.
And even you're just doing it for an easy paycheck, and aren't a complete cunt, a few years in it undoubtebly turns you into one.

I think your right about turning you into one, you have to be around the same power tripping wanks and that must rub off.

knightrose
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Apr 21 2009 07:25

Obviously they are not. Many are decent. It's not a question of individuals but rather the social role that the institution plays.

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Entdinglichung
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Apr 21 2009 08:12

it depends on the situation ... at least in Germany, all cops are trained to be bastards (shooting, some time in the riot police) ... from some comrades from Italy I heard around 12 years ago, that they distinguish between e.g. the armed Carabinieri (bastards) and the unarmed Polizia Municipale

Skips
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Apr 21 2009 10:27
Entdinglichung wrote:
it depends on the situation ... at least in Germany, all cops are trained to be bastards (shooting, some time in the riot police) ... from some comrades from Italy I heard around 12 years ago, that they distinguish between e.g. the armed Carabinieri (bastards) and the unarmed Polizia Municipale

I think the italian thing is the same in Spain with the guardia civil.

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Steven.
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Apr 21 2009 10:31
Entdinglichung wrote:
it depends on the situation ... at least in Germany, all cops are trained to be bastards (shooting, some time in the riot police) ... from some comrades from Italy I heard around 12 years ago, that they distinguish between e.g. the armed Carabinieri (bastards) and the unarmed Polizia Municipale

the polizia are still armed. But they are different to the Carabinieri, who paramilitary police, who include conscripts, and are more traditionally brutal and stupid.

Jokes about the Carabinieri are common in Italy, for example:
why do Carabinieri go round in pairs? One to read, one to write.
How many Carabinieri does it take to milk a cow? 20. One for each teat and 16 to hold it down.

As for the police, like knightrose said it's not about how they are as individuals. Of course many police officers are very nice individuals. When it comes to social change, however, this is irrelevant. What is important is the social role that the police force place in society. This is of course a dual role - the role which we see as being the most important is the role which the police force was set up to be, which is to be a body of organised violence which acts to protect and further the interests of capital and the state. Hence at times of intense class struggle the police are used to break strikes, smash up demonstrations, etc.

That role would not be very acceptable to the general population (originally in the UK they were hated by all, the person who murdered one of the first police officers in 1833 was actually let off for "justifiable homicide"), so the police force over time were also given socially useful functions such as some elements of protecting the public, solving crimes, catching murderers, directing tourists around, etc.

Most of these socially useful functions will need to be kept in a future classless society - but their primary function as a tool of class domination, a permanent body of organised violence under the command of a small minority, should be abolished.

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Entdinglichung
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Apr 21 2009 10:43

thats true, both Guardia Civil and Carabinieri are subject of the ministry of defense in their respective country and were originally designed to deal with an unruly population (traditional bandits, cattle thieves, smugglers and other people defending their "moral economy" and social/political rebellions) in the countryside

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back2front
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Apr 21 2009 11:30

Police should be elected by their local communities so that local communities can police themselves. Until such times police remain defenders of corporate interests and their shareholders.

I have no doubt that decent people do join even with the intent/belief that they are doing some good in their community but they become part and parcel of statist suppression and oppression by offering their allegience to a right wing organisation which will defend property before poeple at every turn.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes - who polices the police? It will be interesting to see the outcome of the so-called independent inquiry into police abuse at the G20 demonstrations but it will also offer no surprises. It wouldn't surprise me, for example, to see more influence from private security companies in policing of protests. In such an instance accountability is taken away from the rule of law so that that conservative insitution may save its face should another wave of public revulsion wash its way.

To reiterate, until local communities can police themselves by appointing their own known and trusted colleagues who are instantly recallable and whose central duty is to place people before property then we are left with ongoing problems that cannot be resolved by the current regime of enforcing state control to protect elites and their interests. Until this situation arrives the cops will continue to get away with murder and the real criminals can continue laughing all the way to the bank.

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altemark
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Apr 21 2009 13:21

One view of the argument: ACAG

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Choccy
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Apr 21 2009 13:49
altemark wrote:
One view of the argument: ACAG

wink

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Entdinglichung
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Apr 21 2009 14:22

for those who understand German: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcBGsNhwxhY ... a satirical song by Georg Kreisler complaining that nobody protects the police

akai
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Apr 21 2009 14:29

I think the comrades here have already mentioned why the problem isn't whether or not some individual police are "decent" or not - just like the problem is not whether or not some boss or even politician is "decent" (as much as one can be). But I have to comment that I am very weary of the idea of local communities electing police since I saw many community watch types and - well, it's usually the same mentality and dealing with petty crime while having no competence over the real crime.

What do community police usually do? In my experience, they generally chase people making graffiti and other "hooligan acts". Occasionally they may try to stop a drunken brawl. In the meanwhile, the real crime goes on in boardrooms and the government.

Of course in the here and now, there may be reasons to set up some self-defense forces - just like if you set up an activist camp, you normally get a group of people to organize security. (Some of which also behave like asshole cops, some of which are peaceniks who want to deal with every situation with a hug.) But in order to really make a reasonable change in the way we deal with things, we have to come together and decide what sort of behaviour requires intervention and how it should be dealt with. In addition, there's no big point if most people are flaky and come up with shitty rules that mainly protect the interests of property.

Let me just say I am sceptical about most schemes for community- controlled police and think that, although there may be improvements people can make to the way policing is handled, we need a deep social revolution to begin to make a dent in the problem, years of working on creating a new mentality.

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back2front
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Apr 21 2009 18:11
akai wrote:
I think the comrades here have already mentioned why the problem isn't whether or not some individual police are "decent" or not - just like the problem is not whether or not some boss or even politician is "decent" (as much as one can be). But I have to comment that I am very weary of the idea of local communities electing police since I saw many community watch types and - well, it's usually the same mentality and dealing with petty crime while having no competence over the real crime.

What do community police usually do? In my experience, they generally chase people making graffiti and other "hooligan acts". Occasionally they may try to stop a drunken brawl. In the meanwhile, the real crime goes on in boardrooms and the government.

Of course in the here and now, there may be reasons to set up some self-defense forces - just like if you set up an activist camp, you normally get a group of people to organize security. (Some of which also behave like asshole cops, some of which are peaceniks who want to deal with every situation with a hug.) But in order to really make a reasonable change in the way we deal with things, we have to come together and decide what sort of behaviour requires intervention and how it should be dealt with. In addition, there's no big point if most people are flaky and come up with shitty rules that mainly protect the interests of property.

Let me just say I am sceptical about most schemes for community- controlled police and think that, although there may be improvements people can make to the way policing is handled, we need a deep social revolution to begin to make a dent in the problem, years of working on creating a new mentality.

I am not referring to a community police service which is seperate from the main force. I too would be sceptical about this. I am looking towards a situation where people can de facto police themselves without recourse to the State. Would you rather have a police force made of people not from your community whom you know nothing about or one that is comprised of members of your own community whom you trust and acknowledge as being fair-minded and practical?

This is not a replacement for the current police force but rather an alternative way of doing things which is collectively and autonomousy run by people for people. Without such a situation any other system of policing will be inherently corrupt.

Skips
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Apr 21 2009 20:01

I was once told to get off the pavement and go on the road by a community support officer whilst i was cycling slowly on my bike. I had no helmet and the road was narrow with cars all around. When the community support officer turned the corner I went back on the pavement.

Pointless power tripping makes me want to headbutt ppl.

Eastern Barbarian
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Apr 21 2009 20:08

all cops are bastards, they chose to join the international brotherhood of scum and it doesnt matter whether in everyday life some of them are nice.

Skips
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Apr 21 2009 20:23
Eastern Barbarian wrote:
the international brotherhood of scum

I got to remember that surprised

JCC
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May 5 2009 17:20

Honestly, if you think that all individual police are wankers then you're either ignorant, much too overzealous or brainwashed. The anarchist position is against the police force, not individual coppers, that's plain daft. We're in a civilization where most people have been brought up to believe in authority, capitalism and inequality, coppers are misguided in the same capacity as the average Labour voter. A copper is as welcome in the revolution as you; and you probably had the same notion of what's right once upon a time, unless you were brought up as an anarchist.

raw
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May 5 2009 21:11

I think its not good cops or bad cops debate but to what degrees of cuntishness do the cops posses. To be honest I haven't met a nice copper, when they do act "nice" you can see how false they are. I have always seen the police as mercenaries, happy to get the state to pay for their mortgages, cars, and lifestyle regardless of what they are deployed to do. They know they have a job for life, they get a decent wage (unlike other coppers in other parts of the world), economic perks - ultimately they behave and act like scabs, whilst the rest of us have to actually earn a living to exist, these people are employed to police our lives to earn money. To me that puts them in the same category as supervisors, managers...etc. And though I agree it is the social role of the police as an institution which is the problem, it is also the willingness and ignorance of individuals who join - mainly from working class tory backgrounds. When they choose, and it is a choice, to become part of that institution they become a target. I have no sympathy for any of them.

Skips
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May 6 2009 10:15
JCC wrote:
Honestly, if you think that all individual police are wankers then you're either ignorant, much too overzealous or brainwashed. The anarchist position is against the police force, not individual coppers, that's plain daft. We're in a civilization where most people have been brought up to believe in authority, capitalism and inequality, coppers are misguided in the same capacity as the average Labour voter. A copper is as welcome in the revolution as you; and you probably had the same notion of what's right once upon a time, unless you were brought up as an anarchist.

I am plain daft. =)

No Practice No Theory (not verified)
May 8 2009 09:06

The foundation and role of the police is discussed in detail in Mayday magazine issue 3, I picked it up from Housmans the other day http://mayday-magazine.vpweb.co.uk/

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cantdocartwheels
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May 21 2009 12:19
Quote:
happy to get the state to pay for their mortgages, cars, and lifestyle regardless of what they are deployed to do

So in other words, they're like 99% of the population who have to work for a living.
I mean if your sitting on the phone flogging cancer insurance, you don;t really care about what your doing, all you see is the paycheck. Tbh most of the coppers i know did it so they could stop having to work in a shittier job.
In short as other posters have said an anarchist critique of the police is one which focuses on their current social role and how they operate as an institution, not on moralising about individuals.

Quote:
I am not referring to a community police service which is seperate from the main force. I too would be sceptical about this. I am looking towards a situation where people can de facto police themselves without recourse to the State. Would you rather have a police force made of people not from your community whom you know nothing about or one that is comprised of members of your own community whom you trust and acknowledge as being fair-minded and practical?

While i sympathise with this there are clearly some elements of investigative police work that require specialisation (eg forensic investigation). So instead of ''community policing'' you'd be more likely to have a core of long term professionals and a larger bulk of unskilled ''community police' doing it for a few years or as part of a job complex before deciding whether they wanted to do something else, who would where possible be drawn from the region. The idea that all police functions could be entirely carried out by part time members of the community seems a bit overly optimistic. If someones going to be forensically investigating a rape and interviewing victims and suspects i'd prefer it was a trained professional who did the job full time, rather than bob who pulls the pints at the wagon and horses on the weekend.

I'm sure we've had this discussion on here quite recently, can't remember which thread tho.

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Choccy
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May 21 2009 12:52
cantdocartwheels wrote:
If someones going to be forensically investigating a rape and interviewing victims and suspects i'd prefer it was a trained professional who did the job full time, rather than bob who pulls the pints at the wagon and horses on the weekend.

Mon AM on the bins, PM brain surgery
Tue AM bus-driving PM shelf stack in food distribution centre
Wed OFF
Thu AM forensic investigation of rape case PM wiping arses in old people's home
Fri AM on the bins again PM off
Sat OFF
Sun OFF

sean mallory
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May 22 2009 08:20

Both all cops are bastards and the "its the system" are both kinda right but kinda wrong. Obviously you can't say all cops are bastards - there are people in the force who are not complete arseholes, whilst anyone who has been in contact with them will definately wonder about the whole "its the system" when you see some of the more sadistic elements at work.

From my experience of the pigs here in Ireland its obvious people join for a myriad of reasons, some of these are positive i.e. wanting to help society etc. However the culture in the cops is horrific. Sexism and homophobia is rife ([url=This is by a journo who usually writes pro cop stories]http://www.independent.ie/national-news/insidious-bullying-rife-within-the-gardai-467133.html)[/url]. Bullying is also common place. Violence at work is encouraged. Many people leave the cops in the first two years. Presumably these are many of the people who entered for positive reaons. Then your left with pshchos who are actually nutters to begin with or normal people who were broken by the training and culture. In the shell to sea campaign it was obvious. they initally shipped in 100's of cops to break the picket. Cops had to do some pretty overtly political but nasty work against a rural community probably similar to their own home towns and villages. Over the first few weeks some actually broke down and some were very slow to act when they were asked to get heavy (these were a small minority). These were weeded out and sent else where presumably had a black mark added and given the macho culture were probably bullied. That left the nutters who went on to terrorise a community by regular beatings and pschological abuse that went as far as to threaten rape. So yes they are as unit bastards with the odd one here and there that isn't but they dont last long.

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Steven.
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May 22 2009 11:01
No Practice No Theory wrote:
The foundation and role of the police is discussed in detail in Mayday magazine issue 3, I picked it up from Housmans the other day http://mayday-magazine.vpweb.co.uk/

"gangster", why would you buy your own magazine? And I'm afraid you got yourself banned from here.