Are Antifa platformists?

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Skips
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Jun 9 2009 21:12
Are Antifa platformists?

Apart from the smashing of fascists on the streets what are antifas politics? how do you guys interact with the UAF reformist cunts?

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JoeMaguire
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Jun 9 2009 21:22

Militant antifascism. If your interested why dont you contact the national group and ask if locals are up for a beer and a chat sometime. Bare in mind its not a social group though.

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buena_exposiva
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Jun 9 2009 21:28

Is there antifa in Oregon?

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JoeMaguire
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Jun 9 2009 21:45

That would be ARA or maybe one of the RASH types.

Eastern Barbarian
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Jun 9 2009 22:42

sickdog, check the website and you will knwo. there are all sorts of ppl in A., not all of them even anarchist (although majority are).

Skips
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Jun 10 2009 06:41

Cheers guys. Was wondering what happens when the Unite against fascism ppl turn up? Do you co-operate with them? If so is there not a risk you will be co-opted by them? Im currently in the states so can't be involved with the Uk lot atm. If I were to be involved I could probably help with transport but actually fighting im not so sure about.

ftony
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Jun 10 2009 09:51

Antifa wouldn't officially work with UAF, but if UAF activists approached Antifa activists to work on a common project or action that is in accordance with Antifa principles, they'd probably work together.

at least, that's my impression.

of course fighting isn't (well, certainly shouldn't be) the only way Antifa operates. it's just that the fighting gets the most macho cred, so people talk about it more. one of their principlesis that they fight an ideological battle against the far right as well as a physical one.

sort it out frosty
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Jun 10 2009 12:03

this discussion nicely brings out the contradiction in Antifa as an underground org with secret membership and the necessity of above-ground antifascist organising. i think there should be above-ground paralell groups like "Independent Anti-Fascists United" or something to campaign above-ground against the fash. both sides of the struggle are equally important. During the euro elections i got so sick of the lefties whinging "oh how will we stop the BNP??" when the answer was if your in hospital you might think again about a career as a far-right politician or organiser. But then the UAF lot might have to sacrifice their comfortable professional jobs because of the possibility of a criminal record... HAHA.

sort it out frosty
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Jun 10 2009 18:03

Seeing as UAF are probably on a national scale mainly students that kind of invalidates your point surely?

sort it out frosty
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Jun 10 2009 19:58

students trying to get into comfortable professional jobs? never heard of THAT before....

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fnbrill
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Jun 10 2009 20:22

antifa = reformism

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Tojiah
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Jun 10 2009 20:28

More like antifa = gangsterism. Crips vs Bloods, fash vs antifa, whatever.

Eastern Barbarian
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Jun 10 2009 21:10

Well, as far as I know from Antifa website it openly encourages people to set up their own, independent anti-fascist groups based around militant/ anti-authoritarian politics. In case of UAF- as a group they are clearly against physical opposition so I wouldn't see much ground for co-operation between the two, not mentioning the fact that majority of UAF are whinging liberal lefties and are fucking waste of time, but of course if certain individuals would like to do something more... then they should leave UAF and start their own group that takes things seriously. UAF as such is something, that actually holds anti-fascism in this country back (unless we consider liberal lefites and members of Labour Party "anti-fascists").
Not gona waste time to comment on what those two monekys above weeler's post wrote.

sort it out frosty
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Jun 11 2009 07:36
tojiah wrote:
More like antifa = gangsterism. Crips vs Bloods, fash vs antifa, whatever.

Your a fucking joke. I thought anarchism got rid of this liberal bollox ages ago. Apparently not. Gangsters, reformists - what will liberals come up with next? Hoho...

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Jun 11 2009 07:53
sort it out frosty wrote:
tojiah wrote:
More like antifa = gangsterism. Crips vs Bloods, fash vs antifa, whatever.

Your a fucking joke. I thought anarchism got rid of this liberal bollox ages ago. Apparently not. Gangsters, reformists - what will liberals come up with next? Hoho...

I don't think that there is anything liberal about this at all. I think that there is a distinct danger of anti-fascism developing into gang warfare.

A very prominent demonstration of this is the situation in Turkey running up to the 12th September coup. At this point the left and the right were fighting it out on the streets with an average death toll of 30 political murders a day in İstanbul alone.

The important point though is that on the whole the working class watched on passively, and had no real involvement in the struggles between left and right*. I think this had quite clearly degenerated into a gang war.

Devrim

*This does not mean that individual workers were not involved.

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Jun 11 2009 17:52

I don't think Antifa or militant anti-fascism = gangsterism, although that is certainly a risk and something that should be avoided. But like a few people have said, if you're interested then contact them and they can let you know themselves. If you're in the US, then maybe ARA or another anti-racist group would be more appropriate?

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Joseph Kay
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Jun 11 2009 17:56

20 posts in and no-one's made the cringible 'antifa are no platformists' gag? ah well, one for the team.

john
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Jun 11 2009 18:26
Eastern Barbarian wrote:
In case of UAF- as a group they are clearly against physical opposition

not sure about this? it was UAF that egged Griffin wasn't it?

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sum-one
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Jun 11 2009 18:53
Joseph Kay wrote:
20 posts in and no-one's made the cringible 'antifa are no platformists' gag? ah well, one for the team.

Bastard! I was going to put that in mine but forgot by the end.

Sickdog, why did you ask if they were platformists in the first place?

John - yes, but that is probably the most 'physical' thing they have EVER done.

Skips
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Jun 11 2009 19:40

The platformist thing. I dont know, just sounded good. I guess I was reading about makhno and the black army etc reminded me of antifa.

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jef costello
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Jun 11 2009 19:55
john wrote:
Eastern Barbarian wrote:
In case of UAF- as a group they are clearly against physical opposition

not sure about this? it was UAF that egged Griffin wasn't it?


strictly gangster

Eastern Barbarian
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Jun 11 2009 23:09

just quick one- those that egged N.Griffin were not neccesarily part of the UAF and even if they were, this was their spontaneous reaction as individuals because even that kind of things would be too extremist for most of the UAF liberal wankers..
Devrim please- this is not Turkey and I really don't see same dangers here.

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AES
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Jun 11 2009 23:38

I agree with ToJ and Devrim on this issue. I realise there some people that do put their heart into it but I feel that groups functioning on the fundamental basis of being a counter-power to the fascists can slip into gangsterism - same as what happened in Turkey.

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Joseph Kay
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Jun 11 2009 23:48
Eastern Barbarian wrote:
just quick one- those that egged N.Griffin were not neccesarily part of the UAF and even if they were, this was their spontaneous reaction as individuals because even that kind of things would be too extremist for most of the UAF liberal wankers..
Devrim please- this is not Turkey and I really don't see same dangers here.

i don't think so. there's probably some truth to griffin's claim that it was allowed to happen - have you ever seen that few cops reacting so uselessly to obviously harmless liberals in parliament square? Weymann 'despicable fucking cunt' Bennett was also all over it claiming it for UAF.

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Jun 12 2009 07:12
Eastern Barbarian wrote:
Devrim please- this is not Turkey and I really don't see same dangers here.

No, the dangers aren't the same because their is more social peace in the UK, but the same trends can be spotted, definitely. When I was briefly involved with Antifa in London, there were definitely people there whose main political activity was anti-fascism and I also heard stories about dodgy AFA and links with anti-Prod Celtic hooligans. These things lend themselves more to Devrim and ToJ's 'fascists' and 'anti-fascists' fighting it out with little connection to working class struggle argument.

Similar could be said of when I was in Sweden and hung out with some SAC and AFA people - this was a criticism some SAC people had of AFA people. Also, when the firebomb attack on some AFA/SAC members' house happened in Stockholm (last year, I think), one AFA-sympathising SAC member told me it was for their anti-fascism rather than their worker organising and that such an action wouldn't happen to those not involved in anti-fascism as fascists just don't think so deeply about these issues (surprisingly).

I'm not saying I'm wholesale against any anti-fascist activity, I think it can be relevant in some places (I couldn't imagine not doing it in Russia, for instance, though the same problems would still apply), but I think anti-fascism can have a tendency to break down into gang-like warfare. This is especially the case in somewhere like the UK, where there is a recent history of militant anti-fascism but little in the way of current working class struggle.

Caiman del Barrio
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Jun 12 2009 09:33

I know a couple of people who went to protest against Griffin, it was UAF (SWP) organised...who knows as to the exact identity of the egger though.

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Jun 12 2009 09:39
Eastern Barbarian wrote:
Devrim please- this is not Turkey and I really don't see same dangers here.

No, it isn't, and of course one of the main differences is that in Turkey the fascists are actually very strong dangerous organisation who still murder members of ethnic and religious minorities and within living memory have led pogroms and massacres murdering hundreds of people whereas the BNP are a small right populist group, whose vote has actually decreased slightly in places where they stood previously, and who managed to get a couple of Euro MPs through a change in the electoral rules.

It is not about things that are specifically to one country though. Before I lived in Eastern Europe I was told that there was a real danger from fascists there and it was impossible to conduct political activity.

I spent six months there, went to political meetings and demonstrations, gave out leaflets outside factories, and walked around speaking Turkish and being obviously foreign. Guess what? I didn't see a single fascist.

That doesn't mean that there is no fascist activity whatsoever, but the danger is certainly being exaggerated. It is not as if these people are attacking communist meetings or communists leafleting factories. Nor is it something that I believe they do much of in the UK today.

However, if you want conflict with these people it is possible to form gangs and go out and have street fights. What does it do for us though?

Devrim

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Farce
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Jun 12 2009 10:40
Joseph Kay wrote:
20 posts in and no-one's made the cringible 'antifa are no platformists' gag? ah well, one for the team.

I was going to, but then I couldn't be arsed.

sickdog24 wrote:
The platformist thing. I dont know, just sounded good. I guess I was reading about makhno and the black army etc reminded me of antifa.

Yeah, but being militant isn't the same thing as being a platformist. I don't think antifa have an executive committee.

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Jun 12 2009 15:53
Eastern Barbarian wrote:
Problem with robbing banks, that these days its just really difficult to do and money is not worth the risk wink (with some exceptions like Greece, where some comrades still manage to net neat sums)

Monkey see, monkey cite.

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Joseph Kay
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Jun 12 2009 17:07
weeler wrote:
Whats wrong with Weymann Bennett? I've spoken to him on the phone a couple times and he seems nice. Dirt plz.

first time I encountered him he was smearing the anarcho-interventionists at the European Social Forum in London as racist, anti-Semitic muggers. every subsequent time I saw his name attached to something it was either cringinle populist liberalism or stock-in-trade SWPpie lies and slander. but I'm pretty intolerant of that species of trot.

Eastern Barbarian
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Jun 12 2009 21:51

Cuntmann Bennett can claim all what he wants. Anyway, thats bit sad times, when egging somebody is considered radical smile It was even more funy to hear N.Griffin talking about "mob violence"- fuck me, I don't think he remembers what the real violence looks like smile
Whatever you think about Antifa etc. at the end of the day these are groups like that keeping fash in check and it times of crisis fash will the the ones breaking up strikes etc as they always did.