Groups in London?

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Awesome Dude's picture
Awesome Dude
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Jan 19 2012 20:01

Grey Goose. It's best to a least turn up to a meeting or social organised by the groups mentioned by others. Having said that, you sound like the type of person who would fit in more with ALARM.

Voyages through the ultra far left can be alienating. Far too many ultra lefties (anarchist included) live their lives through a "navel gazing" sub-cultural ghetto. Don't get lost...

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Jan 20 2012 00:28

Thanks for the props to the AYN. Those of us from that who are still active run this site now, and are mostly now in AF or Solfed.

Calling people you've never met, and you have no idea who they are "pussies" is ridiculous. People here could have a go at you demanding to know where you were on June 30 or November 30 when many of us were on strike.

During the riots no anarchist group encouraged kids to join the fighting, and rightly so because it would have been irresponsible. Hundreds of kids have ended up with criminal records or jailed since then, and that isn't something we should encourage.

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Jan 20 2012 01:33
Grey Goose wrote:
"So it's not useful to fling these kind of accusations around. Also calling people pussies is just going to get people's backs up. So it might be best to cut that out if you want people to respond to you in a constructive fashion. and FYI there's a (deserved) crack down on macho posting currently in effect on this forum, so don't be surprised if that sort of stuff attracts a banhammer. Posting guidelines are here."

Between Your Teeth

This exactly the kinda shit that alienates ordinary people, this is why I'm embarrassed to bring anyone from my estate to an actual meeting. I've taken a mate to the bookfair which was bless cause he didn't have to have to sit in the meetings listening to people chat shit. To much rhetoric, feminist nonsense (not sayin ALL feminism is nonsense) and political terminology and whatnot. We clocked some books, chatted to Ian Bone and watched some film about Cuba. He couldn't understand the vegan heads though. Whatever, it was cool. The point is I knew as soon as we sat down in one of those meetings, he'd offend someone's delicate anarcho sensibilities and it would've kicked up a shitstorm. Macho is one thing I have never been accused of until now, wha guan? I'm genuinely searching for an organization that I can relate to and get involved in. Maybe I was too harsh about AFED. Battlescarred says they replied me, well if that's the case then I appreciate it but did not receive. I would have come to your meetings cantdocartwheels and battlescarred, but this site was "on strike" (!?) yesterday and I am only seein replies now. It was just frustrating when some of us were out on road givin the filth a solid pasting I hear certain man from a certain London based anarchist organization are gettin pissed on the sidelines watchin! People that are older than me who was tellin me when I was a likkle yute about anarchism and squattin and all these wonderful ideas not practisin what they preach. I respected those people and when the riots come that they've all been having wet dreams about, they don't set pace?! If you've got kids or you on license (which didn't stop me by the way) or whatever, then you exempt in my eyes. But still relatively young and not participating? It was dispiriting to say the least. Anyways I'm not here to bash anyone or anyone's org in particular, I'm just seeking for something real and relevant. I'm doing a short, part-time course so I've got lots of time for gettin involved in stuff. Anyway it's cas, thanks for feedback.

Sorry grey goose but really feal like i need to intervene right now. I get what you were saying earlier on about real people and anarchism and the riots etc, and get what your saying about a trying to find an organisation that you can really relate too, but have really got to challenge your assumption that feminism and challenging macho culture is alienating to ordinary people. I am an ordinary person and personally find machismo, sexism, patriarchy, etc, alienating.
If you are really interested in finding a space in revolutionary poliitics then you are going to have to accept that ordinary concepts of whats comfortable and acceptable to you, are not what acceptable to the rest of us, particularly women.
Feminism may be offputting to you, (nonsense even) but for many working class ordinary women involved in "radical" politics, a basic level of feminism is a non-negotiatable minimal entry-requirement for revolutionary activism.

Also awesome dude your comment about grey goose sounding like the type of person who would fit in more with ALARM, sounds a little derrogatory to me, care to elaborate? what sort of person fits in with ALARM??

ps ian bone is sound, i'm not a vegan, nor am of delicate sensibilities.

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Jan 20 2012 03:43
Marigold wrote:

Also awesome dude your comment about grey goose sounding like the type of person who would fit in more with ALARM, sounds a little derrogatory to me, care to elaborate? what sort of person fits in with ALARM??
.

I agree. Though the Eton campaign is cat shit...

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Jan 20 2012 07:57

I don't know, ALARM does seem to want to do "street" anarchism--demos, prop, distros, actively anti-police, black blocs (?). So I could see how AD came to that conclusion.

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Jan 20 2012 08:44
Marigold wrote:
Sorry grey goose but really feal like i need to intervene right now. I get what you were saying earlier on about real people and anarchism and the riots etc, and get what your saying about a trying to find an organisation that you can really relate too, but have really got to challenge your assumption that feminism and challenging macho culture is alienating to ordinary people. I am an ordinary person and personally find machismo, sexism, patriarchy, etc, alienating.
If you are really interested in finding a space in revolutionary poliitics then you are going to have to accept that ordinary concepts of whats comfortable and acceptable to you, are not what acceptable to the rest of us, particularly women.
Feminism may be offputting to you, (nonsense even) but for many working class ordinary women involved in "radical" politics, a basic level of feminism is a non-negotiatable minimal entry-requirement for revolutionary activism.

This.

Pussy is seen as inappropriate because it is a gendered insult. It is used to indicate that something is weak, craven or pathetic and directly links this to being effeminate. It is used to feminise men who do not conform to cultural norms of masculinity. It's a shit horrible word and it's totally acceptable for someone (who isn't even a mod, but just another user of the site) to point out that words like that aren't acceptable here. There are plenty of alternatives, use them instead.

Grey Goose wrote:
This exactly the kinda shit that alienates ordinary people

No, what alienates ordinary people is the assumption that they're, what, too stupid to understand feminism? Unable to moderate their behaviour when introduced in to new social groups with different rules and norms?

Don't assume that you're the spokesperson for 'ordinary people' because you're not. Most of the people who read this site are 'ordinary people' and most of the people who post get that we have different rules to wider society because that's what we believe - that one day people will live their lives without being oppressed by class society, racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, ableism etcetcetc.

Everyone here is from different backgrounds and I don't just mean levels of wealth. All sorts of things in peoples backgrounds will mean that they think certain things are acceptable. For instance, people brought up in homophobic or racist or communities might uncritically repeat words or behaviours without realising they're unacceptable, and only understand the need to reflect on this when asked to by others. This needs to be taken in to consideration when challenging behaviours. It doesn't mean that 'ordinary people' (whatever you mean by that) get a free pass. It means that someone asking you to reconsider your language in the first instance (rather than, for example, you instantly getting banned) is a proportional and appropriate response.

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Jan 20 2012 11:21
Chilli Sauce wrote:
I don't know, ALARM does seem to want to do "street" anarchism--demos, prop, distros, actively anti-police, black blocs (?). So I could see how AD came to that conclusion.

ALARM don't do black blocs afaik.

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Jan 20 2012 13:50
Marigold wrote:
Also awesome dude your comment about grey goose sounding like the type of person who would fit in more with ALARM, sounds a little derrogatory to me, care to elaborate? what sort of person fits in with ALARM??

Marigold wrote:
ps ian bone is sound, i'm not a vegan, nor am of delicate sensibilities.

Not of "delicate sensibilities"...then maybe you and bone would like to respond to this?...did that sound derogatory?

Harrison
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Jan 20 2012 15:16
Steven. wrote:
During the riots no anarchist group encouraged kids to join the fighting, and rightly so because it would have been irresponsible. Hundreds of kids have ended up with criminal records or jailed since then, and that isn't something we should encourage.

Yeah i know a friend of a friend who is now tagged and can't leave his home for the next 7 years.

Also Bone may as a person be sound, but his politics are not.

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Jan 20 2012 15:36
Harrison wrote:
Steven. wrote:
During the riots no anarchist group encouraged kids to join the fighting, and rightly so because it would have been irresponsible. Hundreds of kids have ended up with criminal records or jailed since then, and that isn't something we should encourage.

Yeah i know a friend of a friend who is now tagged and can't leave his home for the next 7 years.

that sounds very doubtful to me, I'm pretty sure curfews can't be applied like that

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Jan 21 2012 10:53
Awesome Dude wrote:
Marigold wrote:
Also awesome dude your comment about grey goose sounding like the type of person who would fit in more with ALARM, sounds a little derrogatory to me, care to elaborate? what sort of person fits in with ALARM??

Marigold wrote:
ps ian bone is sound, i'm not a vegan, nor am of delicate sensibilities.

Not of "delicate sensibilities"...then maybe you and bone would like to respond to this?...did that sound derogatory?

Touche Awesome Dude, but am not sure what the "death of a paper tiger" written in 1997 has to do with me or ALARM. I can see the Bone connection but thats it.

Harrison
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Jan 21 2012 12:42
Steven. wrote:
that sounds very doubtful to me, I'm pretty sure curfews can't be applied like that

Probably been through some chinese whispers, but what i've heard is that he was due to go uni, but got caught during the riots/looting and now he's tagged and can't leave a certain area until his late 20s. Might not be confined to his house, might just be his neighbourhood... I really don't know the details.

Considering two guys each got 4 years in jail for a facebook post, i don't find the above particularly unbelievable.

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Jan 21 2012 14:15
Marigold wrote:
Touche Awesome Dude, but am not sure what the "death of a paper tiger" written in 1997 has to do with me or ALARM. I can see the Bone connection but thats it.

Former leading lights of London Class War have lent considerable "spiritual" and material support to the Whitechapel Anarchist Group (W.A.G) from it's inception to it's death (see Ian Bones blog). It was seen by some, rightly or wrongly, as the successor to the Class War group of the 80's and 90's (and bits of 2000). For example, their media savvy, populist and intoxicating "street fighting" approach(G20 April 2009). Class War, W.A.G and ALARM are seen by some as part of a continuous spectrum of groups advocating an insurrectionary anarchist approach.

Last year, there was a flood of young student radicals entering the anarchist milieu. W.A.G (who were largely composed of the more youthful "lifestyle scene") were losing their appeal to groups such as AF and Solfed. Where as previously those groups were defined by their more mature membership with "clear political lines" (and are detested by "lifestyle" types for it), they now had considerable groups of young radicals knocking on their door. Previously, it was thought by the class war/W.A.G milieu (still is by some) that "clear political lines" killed the development of a "sexy", radical and dynamic anarchist movement. This was clearly not what students coming from the radical movement thought.

W.A.G dissolved early last year and set up ALARM. IMO it was an attempt to try to capitalise on the wave of radical student protests. ALARM is a more clearly defined political organisation than W.A.G. It seems to be orientating away from the more populist "street fighting" approach of W.A.G and is looking to organise in community spaces (working with radical london) and workplaces (working with solfed/IWW). I think this simply reflects the new currents in the anarchist milieu who would like to see a more "serious" approach to organising and the failure of the summit based activism (G20/climate camp) which revolved around a particular "activist lifestyle" milieu.

Just out of interest, apparently class war had its origins in Swansea, Wales, developing from a group of activists who produced a local paper called The Alarm. I'm not sure if the ALARM group knew about this (I'm sure it's oldest member does) and whether they adopted their acronym from it.

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Jan 21 2012 14:32

VERBAL GYMNASTICS= BORING! I regret coming on here, I'm better off starting my own organization which isn't entrenched in bullshit. If it was up to some of you's on here, we'd all be automatons in an androgynous society with more rules and regulations than this one. Good luck gettin any workin class people among your ranks. Stop reading books and start talking to people. Safe.

gypsy
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Jan 21 2012 14:33
Grey Goose wrote:
VERBAL GYMNASTICS= BORING! I regret coming on here, I'm better off starting my own organization which isn't entrenched in bullshit. If it was up to some of you's on here, we'd all be automatons in an androgynous society with more rules and regulations than this one. Good luck gettin any workin class people among your ranks. Stop reading books and start talking to people. Safe.

Whatever bludclot

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Arbeiten
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Jan 21 2012 15:32

I'm going to carry on reading and talking personally....

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Jan 21 2012 15:50
Awesome Dude wrote:
Just out of interest, apparently class war had its origins in Swansea, Wales, developing from a group of activists who produced a local paper called The Alarm. I'm not sure if the ALARM group knew about this (I'm sure it's oldest member does) and whether they adopted their acronym from it.

I was told that ALARM was chosen in reference to Lucy Parsons.

wojtek
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Jan 22 2012 03:19
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lzbl wrote:
Pussy is seen as inappropriate because it is a gendered insult. It is used to indicate that something is weak, craven or pathetic and directly links this to being effeminate. It is used to feminise men who do not conform to cultural norms of masculinity. It's a shit horrible word and it's totally acceptable for someone (who isn't even a mod, but just another user of the site) to point out that words like that aren't acceptable here. There are plenty of alternatives, use them instead.

Not necessarily, it depends on the tone and context in which it's used. I sometimes call myself it when I'm being melodramatic and moaning about man flu lol. However, I agree with you on the 'ordinary people' bit; I don't think it exists (I mean we all have our little eccentricities and quirks no? It's what makes the world go round) and it's used to crush individuality and as you say, reaffirm reactionary attitudes.

Harrison
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Jan 21 2012 23:34
Awesome Dude wrote:
Last year, there was a flood of young student radicals entering the anarchist milieu. W.A.G (who were largely composed of the more youthful "lifestyle scene") were losing their appeal to groups such as AF and Solfed. Where as previously those groups were defined by their more mature membership with "clear political lines" (and are detested by "lifestyle" types for it), they now had considerable groups of young radicals knocking on their door. Previously, it was thought by the class war/W.A.G milieu (still is by some) that "clear political lines" killed the development of a "sexy", radical and dynamic anarchist movement. This was clearly not what students coming from the radical movement thought.

total smackdown.

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Jan 22 2012 01:10

Grey Goose, I do legitimately wish you the best in starting your organisation, but I think it's really disingenuous to tell to us "go talk to people" considering you were invited to this. Regarding, "reading books", I'm all for practical activity, but that just smacks of a misplaced prolier-than-thou anti-intellectualism.

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Jan 22 2012 01:44
Grey Goose wrote:
VERBAL GYMNASTICS= BORING! I regret coming on here, I'm better off starting my own organization which isn't entrenched in bullshit. If it was up to some of you's on here, we'd all be automatons in an androgynous society with more rules and regulations than this one. Good luck gettin any workin class people among your ranks. Stop reading books and start talking to people. Safe.

With an attention span like yours, I'd be amazed if you could start a piss up in a brewery, never mind your own organisation. Seriously, if we're verbal gymnasts, then that must make you a verbal couch potato.

The weird thing is, most anarchists I know and meet are working class. You on the other hand, sound like a cartoon character, a cliche, kind of what working class is supposed to sound like according to our middle class 'betters'. Funny as fuck, that. Go on, say 'they read books so they must be posh'.

See, over the years, my class has been intentionally and aggressively de-politicised and dumbed down by the ruling class and its media mouthpieces with fake pleb accents but public school backrounds, shitheads on telly, the Sun, fashionable commentators, cool celebs... all loyal to a boss class agenda. And you Grey Goose are spouting the same dumb-down agenda.

I've seen fly on the wall documentaries about 'life on the estate' where the film crew follow around the thickest fucker in the block, telling everyone that's who we are, that's who we're supposed to be. And your comments are no different from the sort of people who make that kind of documentary. And sadly, I hear your kind of attitude every fucking day, time and time again, and it's so fucking tedious. Too many people from my class are mug enough to swallow this sort of 'don't read a book' crap hook, line and sinker, and are even proud to wear their ignorance on their sleeve... because it's not cool to read a book when you can be living the life in the street or talking the usual shit with freddy fuckwit and chums on the corner. Sure, let's give the dibble some backchat but let's still be clueless about anything outside our immediate vicinity, live up to bourgeois stereotypes and know fuck all about our wider class interests.

Grey Goose, I'm sorry I bothered to listen to your whining self pity, with your cliche ridden boss class views of what working class people are meant to be like, how we're supposed to act, talk, do or not do. Do you really think that because someone reads a book means they can't talk to people? Do you think it's not cool to learn anything? Do you think that as a class, we should revel in our ignorance and not read anything with revolutionary ideas, never mind actually discuss such ideas and learn?

Years ago, it was not that uncommon for working class people with very minimal education to get together and struggle through really tough reading matter, for example Marx's Capital or some other lengthy tome. They'd digest it, discuss it and then act on what they'd learned. Sometimes they misunderstood but at least they tried to learn something beyond the narrow confines of their street, workplace or town. But nowadays, as a class, we are comparatively more clueless. Big Brother on telly and txt speak don't help and neither does your attitude, which shows nothing better than willing collusion with this spoon fed mass idiocy.

The bosses must be pissing themselves laughing. Good luck with your project mind, you'll need it.

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Jan 22 2012 13:17

Really? Cause most anarchists I meet are middle-class, vegan and have been to university. I hate knowledge? Shiiiit you don't know me from Adam. Unlike you I didn't have the privilege of school and further education, but I still read searching for a way out of the trap. I've got better things to do than argue with you online. I'm sure I'll meet you at some point and we can have a beer and have a proper chat cause this is going nowhere.

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Jan 22 2012 13:26

You know differerent anarchists to me then. And likewise, you don't know me and what privileges I did or didn't have. Annyway, a beer sounds good any time fella smile

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Jan 22 2012 16:24
Grey Goose wrote:
Really? Cause most anarchists I meet are middle-class, vegan and have been to university. I hate knowledge? Shiiiit you don't know me from Adam. Unlike you I didn't have the privilege of school and further education, but I still read searching for a way out of the trap. I've got better things to do than argue with you online. I'm sure I'll meet you at some point and we can have a beer and have a proper chat cause this is going nowhere.

See, but this is the thing GG. In this post you've dropped the street slang (which seemed quite forced in the first place if you ask me) so you can see how this whole things seems quite disingenuous. In any case, I don't think you know the politics of this site very well, as the majority of the regular post have quite a deep critique of lifestylism, intelectualised anarchism without practical content and, yes, veganism (although there are some vegans on the site, of course). In fact, libcom came out out of a rejection of the "middle class" activism that used to pass for UK anarchism.

Also, considering that you've never met London AF, London SF, or ALARM, I can't imagine that your experience of "anarchists that you meet" is very representative of the London scene.

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Jan 22 2012 19:01
Harrison wrote:
Steven. wrote:
that sounds very doubtful to me, I'm pretty sure curfews can't be applied like that

Probably been through some chinese whispers, but what i've heard is that he was due to go uni, but got caught during the riots/looting and now he's tagged and can't leave a certain area until his late 20s. Might not be confined to his house, might just be his neighbourhood... I really don't know the details.

Considering two guys each got 4 years in jail for a facebook post, i don't find the above particularly unbelievable.

yeah, that's blatantly not true. Not because it is too harsh, but just because curfews aren't applied like that. Curfews wouldn't stop someone going to university, for example, as you would just get your solicitor to apply to alter your curfew. They can't stop you moving house, for example, and also I'm pretty sure they can't be 24 hours a day either, they are more frequently 7 PM-7 AM, that sort of times. And you don't just get a curfew for X number of years. Curfews are generally quite short-term. But anyway, this is derailing…

Grey Goose wrote:
Really? Cause most anarchists I meet are middle-class, vegan and have been to university. I hate knowledge? Shiiiit you don't know me from Adam. Unlike you I didn't have the privilege of school and further education, but I still read searching for a way out of the trap.

you didn't have the privilege of school? Don't you live in the UK? Not only do we all have the "privilege" of school, but actually we are all obliged to attend, to the extent that people's parents can be jailed if kids don't go. It sounds like you are trying to be prolier than thou like those guys in the Monty Python sketch

Quote:
FOURTH YORKSHIREMAN:
I was happier then and I had nothin'. We used to live in this tiny old house with great big holes in the roof.
SECOND YORKSHIREMAN:
House! You were lucky to live in a house! We used to live in one room, all twenty-six of us, no furniture, 'alf the floor was missing, and we were all 'uddled together in one corner for fear of falling.
THIRD YORKSHIREMAN:
Eh, you were lucky to have a room! We used to have to live in t' corridor!
FIRST YORKSHIREMAN:
Oh, we used to dream of livin' in a corridor! Would ha' been a palace to us. We used to live in an old water tank on a rubbish tip. We got woke up every morning by having a load of rotting fish dumped all over us! House? Huh.
FOURTH YORKSHIREMAN:
Well, when I say 'house' it was only a hole in the ground covered by a sheet of tarpaulin, but it was a house to us.
SECOND YORKSHIREMAN:
We were evicted from our 'ole in the ground; we 'ad to go and live in a lake.
THIRD YORKSHIREMAN:
You were lucky to have a lake! There were a hundred and fifty of us living in t' shoebox in t' middle o' road.
FIRST YORKSHIREMAN:
Cardboard box?
THIRD YORKSHIREMAN:
Aye.
FIRST YORKSHIREMAN:
You were lucky. We lived for three months in a paper bag in a septic tank. We used to have to get up at six in the morning, clean the paper bag, eat a crust of stale bread, go to work down t' mill, fourteen hours a day, week-in week-out, for sixpence a week, and when we got home our Dad would thrash us to sleep wi' his belt.
SECOND YORKSHIREMAN:
Luxury. We used to have to get out of the lake at six o'clock in the morning, clean the lake, eat a handful of 'ot gravel, work twenty hour day at mill for tuppence a month, come home, and Dad would thrash us to sleep with a broken bottle, if we were lucky!
THIRD YORKSHIREMAN:
Well, of course, we had it tough. We used to 'ave to get up out of shoebox at twelve o'clock at night and lick road clean wit' tongue. We had two bits of cold gravel, worked twenty-four hours a day at mill for sixpence every four years, and when we got home our Dad would slice us in two wit' bread knife.
FOURTH YORKSHIREMAN:
Right. I had to get up in the morning at ten o'clock at night half an hour before I went to bed, drink a cup of sulphuric acid, work twenty-nine hours a day down mill, and pay mill owner for permission to come to work, and when we got home, our Dad and our mother would kill us and dance about on our graves singing Hallelujah.
FIRST YORKSHIREMAN:
And you try and tell the young people of today that ..... they won't believe you.
ALL:
They won't!

and as for "not knowing people from Adam": you don't know anyone here from Adam either, so you can keep your assumptions to yourself.

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Jan 22 2012 19:13

Yeah, look at you Steven - you're obviously a Oxford educated minor royal! wink

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Jan 22 2012 19:54

This is exactly why I won't bring my mates to a meeting, why am I a being bombarded with Mothy Python sketch's? What is "prolier than thou"? I dropped my usual chat cause I wanted to be clear chilli sauce, bearing in mind my audience. I went to primary school but only got a year in at secondary so don't take my words out of context. I expect you to have been to school, I weren't sayin it like you privelaged or nothing. One could say "I've just read the most fascinating book", "have you"? "No, I havn't had the privilege of reading it". You get me? And as for knowing people on here, shit, I was squattin from the age of 13 to 17 and met alot of people along the way and I know how homogeneous the scene can be, whether it be wombles or antifa etc I know you're lurkin around so it propably turns out I know more people than you think. Bless.

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Jan 22 2012 20:22

Because you're being really combative! You slagged off a bunch of people you don't know for being 'pussies', then you got called on it, then made a load of assumptions about people on here because you knew wombles back in the day, then when people made assumptions about you, you got pissed off because 'they don't know you from Adam'.

'Prolier than thou' normally refers to anarchists having competitions about how working class they are.

And yeah the squatting scene has a really different make up than most of the people who post on here or are involved in Solfed of AF, give them a chance.

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plasmatelly
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Jan 22 2012 20:36

Grey Goose wrote -

Quote:
Cause most anarchists I meet are middle-class, vegan and have been to university.

I love it when people say that - makes me feel posh! I'm afraid I don't tick any of those boxes mate, and like you left school early - though not as early as you (bleeding hell!). But I say, rather than bashing your head against a brick wall online, why not meet up with one of the London groups and see what they got to say face to face, can't hurt?

radicalgraffiti
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Jan 22 2012 20:54

Grey Goose why are you named after an expensive vodka? it doesn't really fit the rest of your image.