Anarchists join fight against IS to defend Kurdish autonomous areas

Anarchists join fight against IS to defend Kurdish autonomous areas

Taken from a report by the French Anarchist weekly paper Alternative Revolutionaire this short article gives a taste of developements on the ground in the fight against Islamic State.

On Friday 26th September Alternative Libetaire reported that "Istanbul anarchists along other leftists and feminists, have managed to cross over into Syria and the northern town of Kobane which is currently threatened by ISIS.”

“For several days at the Syrian-Turkish border, the city of Kobanê is besieged by forces of the Islamic State (Daesh). Kobanê is a strategic turning point. If the city falls, the whole of Syrian Kurdistan is threatened, and with it a political and social model, that of "democratic autonomy" and "democratic confederalism" built since July 2012.

More than 100,000 inhabitants and residents have become refugees on Turkish territory.
The city is defended by the People’s Protection Units (YPG), militias linked to the PKK, and in which alongside the majority of Kurdish fighters, are also Arabs, Turks, Muslims, Yazidis, Christians or atheists, united against the fanatics of Daesh/ISIS.

Thousands of young people, socialists, trade unionists, revolutionaries, feminists, libertarians have poured in from all over Turkey to Kobanê. They go there to support the refugees and defend the city.
The Turkish army tries to disperse them, yet is accused of being much more permissive with the jihadists who are also trying to cross the border to join Daesh/ISIS

Despite the blockades of the Turkish army, hundreds of activists and militants have managed to cross the border. Among them, the comrades of the Revolutionary Anarchist Action Group, who made the trip to Istanbul to join the defence of Kobanê.

Posted By

Glimmer
Oct 3 2014 21:42

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mikail firtinaci
Oct 9 2014 04:34

I think it is also helpful to read this interview with the "Kurdistan Anarchist Forum". They clearly condemned PKK as nationalist (at least back in 2010):

Quote:
Kurdistan Anarchist Forum: We believe that the PKK is a Stalinist, Maoist and terrorist organisation that was created in the climate of terror, suppression and oppression. The military, fascist and racist government in Turkey pushed the situation further and further until the announcement of the birth of a radical, popular but suicidal organisation, the PKK. In our opinion they serve neither their cause nor that of the working class. In fact, what they do by their actions is give justification to the military government to damage the Kurdish question nationally and internationally. they ( PKK & Turkish Government) have caused the destruction of so many Villages and small towns, displacing million of people, killing so many innocent people.

The Turkish government and the PKK actually help each other. The PKK makes the Turkish government stronger, and the working class issue much weaker. At the same time, the way the Turkish government has tackled the problem has made the PKK stronger - at least in some parts of Kurdistan.

These actions by both of them have made the working class and anarchist movement in Turkey weaker and weaker.

https://libcom.org/news/interview-anarchist-iraqui-kurdish-05032010

I don't have any clue if they are still around, but it would be interesting to know what they think about the situation now.

ben.
Oct 9 2014 06:02

interesting indeed, as Graeber claims the PKK has turned around to take a much more anti-authoritarian stance of late.

kurekmurek
Oct 9 2014 08:14

Good morning

ben.

Why it is strange? Graeber did come to Turkey in 2012. Maybe back then he was informed about Kurdish struggle and its current ideological tendency. He might even had contact with some Kurds.

mikail:

Quote:
https://libcom.org/news/interview-anarchist-iraqui-kurdish-05032010

I don't have any clue if they are still around, but it would be interesting to know what they think about the situation now.

I know this interview. Yeah totally it might be interesting to hear back from.them. However they do not back up their convictions and judgments with any supporting evidence in the interview and claim some unintelligible stuff "We believe that the PKK is a Stalinist, Maoist ...organisation" How can one be both?

There are also other Kurdish anarchists of course. Apart from people engaged with ecology and communal living, there is Qijika Reş http://qijikares.blogspot.com.tr/2012_06_01_archive.html It is (or was) a Kurdish anarchist magazine published in two languages. They were from Turkey and they had a much more nuanced relation to Kurdish movement. According to some of their current posts (of Kurdish anarchists in general I know) people are also very supportive for Syrian Autonomy project to live and realize Bookchinian principles for the first time. They are especially sure about the ideological integrity and truthfulness of YPG fighters.

slothjabber
Oct 9 2014 11:10

How can one organisation be 'both' Maoist and Stalinist? Because Maoism is a form of Stalinism, that's how. Stalinist = believing in socialism in one country; Maoist = believing in socialism in one country through peasant war. All Maoists are Stalinists; not all Stalinists are Maoists.

Spikymike
Oct 9 2014 11:24

As stated ealier under threat of war, ethnic cleansing and death the choices facing Kurdish people in Kobane and northern Syria are few. None in practice offer any guarantees of safety or even survival. Decisions made to fight back or to flee from ISIS are hard ones that can only be made by those immediately affected and have little to do with matters of ideology in the immediate situation.

As to the political background and strategies being employed by the various political players in the region this is the way I read it:
Ocalan and the PKK clearly have changed their political approach in a belated recognition that they were never going to get a traditional independent nation state in a real world dominated by the major world and regional imperialist powers and that the best they could hope for in the forseable future was a power base in a regional autonomy secured through a compromise with those same powers. This in turn has necessitated a new approach to gaining the popular support of local Kurdish and other geographically based ethnic minorities accross class divisions to such a change of course and a move towards a more secular and democratic regime. The attachment of elements of Bookchins mistaken municipalist strategy to this ideological turn provides a link to support in the wider international leftist movement which might otherwise remain reluctant to support a more obvious new capitalist state in the region. Clearly the Kurdish political/military apparatus in Iraq have found other routes towards autonomy and a potentially independent state by means of other compromises with local and world imperialism and have no need of any such ildeological turn. Graeber's comparisons are ridiculous in terms of both the content of the two situations and the historical period - the International brigades, despite their bravery, were a failure then and are no solution now. Imperialist powers do not intervene under pressure from leftist movements for humanitarian motives but only ever in their own perceived interests something only too obvious now in the current battles raging in the Middle East.

kurekmurek
Oct 9 2014 11:30

slothjabber:

Yeah I know what you mean. But you disregard all of the obvious differences between these two authoritarian currents and also of the fact that it was an important part of separation between different socialist currents historically (I don't know your country but for example it was very important if you side with Russia or China in socialist groups in Turkey. People even died due to this debates) Anyway I just would like to point out an obvious non-very precise analysis that was made in the interview. It was not that important actually.

kurekmurek
Oct 9 2014 12:11

http://www.firatnews.com/news/guncel/kobane-den-acil-yardim-cagrisi.htm#...

This one says Kobane is close to fall. There is need for humanitarian supplies for thousands of civilians and Kobane is surrounded totally now.

Spikymike:

Quote:
Graeber's comparisons are ridiculous in terms of both the content of the two situations

I do not think it is ridiculous to compare these two.Of course historically they are two different instances (but what is not different historically?) However the content (as he says) is possibly the closest you can get to Spanish Revolution in your life time. I think this has some truth value. I think he tries to make reference to a common point for all libertarian leftists to make them aware what is at stake there. This is not a full fledged equalization, but rather underlining the possible importance of Autonomy project and a call for a support. (However of course I know not everyone agrees on what is at stake in Kobane)

Caiman del Barrio
Oct 9 2014 16:08
kurremkarmerruk wrote:
Why it is strange? Graeber did come to Turkey in 2012.

There's currently a fundraising campaign to send him back ie put his money where his mouth is: http://gogetfunding.com/project/homage-to-kobane

Juan Conatz
Oct 9 2014 16:54

I think its pretty remarkable than in basically 2-3 days, the framing of what is occurring has gone from "the YPG is a progressive force worth defending in this situation" to "Catalonia 1936"...

kurekmurek
Oct 9 2014 18:09

According to IMC TV (a non-mainstream channel that reports also on Kurdish issues in Turkey) live report just now. As the border gate Mursitpinar (Turkey) is closed currently 9 wounded (YPG I guess) died because of lack of medical treatment.

Another report is this (this is not totally confirmed yet how it happened) but i appears there were attack to Border Gate by two sides of the border (from Syria also Turkey) It was aimed to opening up of the Border. There are two different reports one says Turkish soldiers run away and people crossed the border, weapons are taken by people. Other says it is failed one person died others wounded. (this might be connected to the first one above)

I guess these show the Syrian Kurdish and Turkish (so FSA) relations seems to not go well at all? Any thoughts?

kurekmurek
Oct 9 2014 18:10

Juan Conatz:

Quote:
I think its pretty remarkable than in basically 2-3 days, the framing of what is occurring has gone from "the YPG is a progressive force worth defending in this situation" to "Catalonia 1936"...

Yeah, maybe at this rate, in 2 or 3 more days David Graeber and YPG guerrillas might come to your door and draft you to their national army grin ( If you are woman or child they would probably do much worse though)

Leo
Oct 9 2014 20:35

On the position of the Kurdistan Anarchist Forum today, here's what I've dug up:

Quote:
The only other English-speaking anarchist voice is the Kurdistan Anarchist Forum (KAF), a pacifist group of Iraqi Kurds living in Europe who claim not to “have any relationships with other leftist groups.” While supporting a federated Kurdistan, the KAF declares that it will “only support the PKK when they give up the armed struggle completely, engage in organising popular grassroots mass movements for the sake of achieving the people’s social demands, denounce and dismantle centralised and hierarchical modes of struggle and instead turn to federated autonomous local groups, end all relations and dealings with the states of the Middle East and the West, denounce charismatic power politics, and convert to anti-statism and anti-authoritarianism — only then will we be happy to cooperate with them fully.”

Source: http://roarmag.org/2014/08/pkk-kurdish-struggle-autonomy/

Here's what they've said on what has been going on in Syrian Kurdistan earlier this year: https://libcom.org/news/experiment-west-kurdistan-syrian-kurdistan-has-p...

kurekmurek
Oct 10 2014 13:36

Thanks Leo:

How I missed that the article titled "The experiment of West Kurdistan (Syrian Kurdistan) has proved that people can make changes - Zaher Baher" (link in above comment) was written by Kurdistan Anarchist Forum. I must be blind or something, I even made comments under it.

Anyway they seem to severely changed their approach to PKK and YPG (and Ocalan ) compared to early interview. They now have a much more nuanced and not that clear cut position (like, they no longer say armed Kurdish struggle is Stalinist, Maoist, terrorist nationalist or reactionary). They seem to be supportive of the experiment while debating in an extend the problems that may arise (which is I think the best way to approach it) I think their "change in attitude" come not because of ethical or ideological reasons but by experiencing and realizing the Autonomist experiment from inside (as they are actually European in origin). Not everyone can go there (or need to go there) but I think we should evaluate on the change of opinion of Kurdistan Anarchist Forum as it might provide for us good insights.

kurekmurek
Oct 10 2014 13:57

I don't know if anybody reads but I will continue to translate the news I found important on Kobane here (in summary form and with links) (as I am already doing it for some friends anyway.)

http://www.imctv.com.tr/2014/10/10/pyd-es-baskani-abdullahtan-yardim-kor...

In this link you can see the picture of Asya Abdullah. She is the co-leader of PYD. She is actually at the same rank with Salih Muslim. I did mentioned her in one of the above comments. (By the way I noticed one thing -I also made the same mistake I guess- Salih Muslim is not leader of PYD, he is a co-leader. But must of the news represent Salih Muslim as "the leader" and if hey will report about Abdullah they then call her co-leader. Like she is in some form of inferior position. Only Kurdish resources report this issue rightly, all others from leftists to mainstream media report it wrongly. Another (maybe small but important) thing to learn from Kurdish Struggle.)

She says: We need an urgent "aid corridor" to Kobane to continue the resistance. She asks for coalition to continue attacking the heavy artillery of ISIS positioned in the outside of city (and bombing the city [including the civilians] from there) She only reports ISIS brings army supplies from these cities: Rakka, Minbic, Carablus, Sarrin, Tal Abyad ve Ayn Issa. They need this transportations to stop. She also notes that ISIS also have tanks which are acquired by taking them from Assad's forces.

Caiman del Barrio
Oct 10 2014 14:00
kurremkarmerruk wrote:
Caiman del Barrio:
1) Ok if you want to believe in this sex slave issue do as you please. But it is never proven It was made by a dissident of PKK who might be in a strategy to get the control of Kurds in his movement. It possibly a made up story. I mean how the hell I can now (or you know) It just seems fishy to me.

Nice one mate, so someone says something mean about some people you have an erection for cos they totally use guns AND quote Bookchin, so they must be making it up.

I put it you that your denial of these accusations has nothing to do with an objective assessment of the evidence and everything to do with your preconceived fondness for the PKK. It's total bullshit and it shouldn't be allowed to stand around here. As a general practice, due to the tiny percentage of rapes and sexual abuses on women that result in a guilty conviction (it's 7% in the UK, I wonder what the stat is in Turkey/wartorn Syria), we tend to presume that any accusation is honest and made in good faith. You instead have dismissed it as "Turkish state propaganda" and then "a made up story". This is a Stalinist device: to denounce every error and sin made by 'your side' as a fabrication of 'your' 'enemies'.

Funny how anarchists are so quick to drop their principles and ideas when someone waves an AK around, AND WOMEN TOO. Oooh I wonder if they're single hurruh hurruh...ad nauseam...

kurekmurek
Oct 10 2014 14:42

I was wondering when I will get the first threat to be kicked out grin

But please do not try to frame me as a misogynist or a mindless supporter of PKK.

On your (very old) accusations of rape by Ocalan I just said I do not know. But it just sounds fishy as it was only argued by someone who formed his own Kurdish party in opposition to PKK. There is no hardcore evidence or even there is no evidence of women statements who are harmed like this. However if this issue happened we should condemn them and Ocalan for that.

However your coming up with this old accusation actually works the discredit the current fight of women, and their current good position of them in movement (See above mentioned Kurdish anarchist forum article for that) I mean if you really care go find do your search come up with objective evidence then I will agree with you, no problem and I hope Kurdish Women's movement will also agree with you either.

Moreover if you are really interested in learning some objective criticism (I mean based on real hard evidence) of PKK for example see this (or ask for your comrades to read it than maybe sum it up to you). http://t24.com.tr/haber/pkk-dhkp-c-tikko-yoldaslarini-nasil-oldurduler,2... This is a book by an old Kurdish activist titled "how they killed their comrades?" It is based on detailed analysis of the subject matter of the title in PKK, TIKKO and THKP-C. If I remember correctly PKK as the most cases of killing their compromised militants (however also mind that PKK's number is HUGE ) Writer himself also become alienated to PKK after such and incident. These stuff should be condemned made public criticized etc. (also see the note below)

However the thing is this is not the whole picture. For example Omer Laciner owner of the publishing house (and also a leftist) (his name is mentioned in the article) for example is also critical of this stuff of course. but yesterday I saw him in TV he was arguing for help to Kobane, condemning the Turkish State's attitude etc... Although he has a critical attitude towards PKK and its past it does not stop him from realizing the fact that Kobane and Autonomy experiment and its future is an huge issue for any socialist (in a general sense). We can not just say yeah "they are doomed, though luck we should just care about refugees". How can we be so willing to just give up possibly a huge social project as they will definitely fail "in the future" (according to our theoretical position) I think people who think like are at least as much "chair/academic socialist" as Graeber and completely lack any understanding of politics apart from some theoretical constructions.

p.s. I must add that writer of the book says after 2004 no such event (internal killing of militants) occurred to his knowledge. (it is in interview)

Marx-Trek
Oct 10 2014 15:48

The Irish WSM just posted this about an hour ago.

Quote:

The YPG/J continue to fight ISIS in Kobane while heavy Turkish tanks literally look on, the buildings in the background are in Kobane.

The tanks are part of Turkeys intervention, an intervention that is keeping the border closed to prevent the YPG/J being resupplied. Multiple sources report they are not only short of ammo but also out of food. They are facing perhaps 9000 ISIS fighters, Their command has said that if they could resupply they say they could win but these tanks are among the Turkish forced preventing that happening and keeping the border sealed.

On the 25th day of the siege with ISIS closing in 500 civilians are trying to get across from Kobane into Turkey but only 56 were let through in the last hour (source @sommervillebbc )

Can't understand how this could be happening?

Quote:

We'd suggest you read http://www.wsm.ie/c/isis-kobane-turkish-western-intervention

----------------------------------------

This is becoming an strictly ideological debate rather than an analysis and a deepening of understanding the situation in Kobane, the Kurdish resistance to ISIS, and impact of the players involved. Though ideology is an important aspect, it can derail the actual conversation to be had. Throwing around "isms" in order to attack another's position is not productive. I have all but stopped reading this threat because it contains so much ideological back and forth, and the back and forth is drowning out the original conversation. Again, ideology is important but when used to attack rather than carry on a conversation I fail to see the point, especially this being libcom (a place you go for in-depth discussion not name calling (that's what anarchistnews.org is for).
I think we get it the PKK and its off shoots are not anarchists, the various groups and off shoots of the PKK are dynamic and are reassessing their political ideology as they fighting a left-wing national liberation struggle (much like many other sympathetic national liberation struggles in history). Now the changes and the struggles that happen along the way will determine what these organizations are and their place along the political spectrum. Sure criticism is valid and needed but I am not reading this thread to be convinced of being a staunch PKK follower or damn the PKK. There is more happening both politically and on the ground in Kobane and the region.

Pennoid
Oct 10 2014 15:54

Ocalan has admitted to having sexual relations with "thousands" of women (or maybe it was hundreds) and he just called it free love. They also punished other members for even looking at eachother.

Sounds like typical Maoist gangsterism to me.

I mean anarchism..... anarchism....

Mark.
Oct 10 2014 16:37
Marx-Trek
Oct 10 2014 16:50

Pennoid - So now we are attacking the people defending Kobane by digging up Öcalan's "sexual deviance" (meant as a category and sociological term not a full on judgment call). Seriously? Why is this even an interesting or relevant avenue to turn down and discuss?

I am sorry but this sounds like a US senate or presidential campaign advertising tactic used to divert the conversation from anything remotely relevant or interesting.

Pennoid - I am going to go on a little rant here. I apologize before hand.

First consider how many organizations, friendships, and larger regional anarchists networks have had to deal with abusive sexual dynamics and abusive sexual, sexist, and misogynistic occurrences over the years?

How long or what milieu have you been involved in to feel confident enough to begin to conjure up those skeletons without any reaction?

Plenty of people and orgs within the anarchist/autonomist-left have gone through more than enough meetings, processes in figuring out what to do with sexual and sexist predators within their own ranks. I can recall the countless people that have used "free love" as a means to manipulate for their own sexual desires and conquests. I can recall the countless conversation of rape and sexual abuse I have had with people who are part of the anarchist/autonomist network. I can recall the countless amount of times that picking the side of the predator shattered a network or destroyed productivity. Seriously? Öcalan's sexual activity is a key factor in discussing what is happening in Kobane and Kurdistan (well, in regards to this conversation anyways)?

Ideological purity from afar does just that - it keeps you so far away from what is materially and politically relevant that you become lost within the purely ideological battle. The ideological debate has only one conlusion -- you are wrong and I am right. Boring. To attempt to score some political points in a debate by bringing up "sexual deviance"? Come on that's cheap.

Negative sexual social interactions, be it rape or manipulation...etc..., is not a PKK problem, it is not a communist problem, it is not a social democratic problem, it is not an anarchist or autonomist problem -- its a social problem that knows no bounds. All groups deal with sexual issues and problems.

In the spirit of getting a rise out of you, it was Chairman Mao who said that contradictions among the people are not contradictions the create lines of demarcation. Contradictions among the people are avenues for creating change, building solidarity by counteracting those contradictions among the people, and is activity done in order to better fight against the larger contradictions between classes and class actors (or fanatical anti-left organizations). So it sounds like Chairman Mao has something to offer anarchists in how to deal with problems within the people.

Again, supporting the popular resistance in Kobane in particular and Kurdistan in general does not make me a "free loving" brainwashed PKK Stalinist-Maoist Communist cult member. Just as much as not really worrying about the reasons why the US has deployed airstrikes against ISIS does not make me a pro-US agenda imperialist lapdog. The days of black and white, good and bad, and good and evil are long gone, if it ever really existed, because we live in a globally grey world (to grey for anyone to deny any longer).

Again, someone's political conviction and ideological center is not so weak that it shatters based on a discussion concerning Kurdish resistance to ISIS and Kurdish political develops in Kurdistan. If the Kurdish autonomous regions begins to shift towards a more Zapatista style governance (not government!) great! If not, ok fine , that is interesting and lets talk about that too. This discussion and support of resistance in Kobane are not mutually exclusive but to zero in on sex when the discussion is about resistance, then we have lost the ball and are playing a completely different polemical game all together.

You can either look at the world and say all this is super interesting, lets figure out a way to act or you can look at the world with predetermined ideological conclusions and just not act because you already figured out what is to be gained or had because ideology somehow controls the material world or predetermines material and political outcomes. Pure ideological conclusions are much like conspiratorial conclusion -- ignoring reality.

Pennoid
Oct 10 2014 18:58

I think that the glorious leader's sexual assaults have a little something to do with a movement widely touted in the popular and anarchist press as being "feminist."

Marx-Trek
Oct 10 2014 19:47

Pennoid, I think you missed or just ignored my point.

Anyway, Al Jazerra article quoting an elder man coming from Kobane

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/10/kurdish-voice-from-koba...

Marx-Trek
Oct 10 2014 20:16

Also with what is happening in Kobane is politicizing and intensifying the streets outside of Kobane.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/one-passerby-stabbed-another-shot-durin...

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/10-people-including-three-police-office...

political groups are beginning to fight for their politics. I do not see the point in people questioning involvement, at this point involvement is must (for the people in the region).

Leo
Oct 10 2014 20:55
Quote:
On your (very old) accusations of rape by Ocalan I just said I do not know. But it just sounds fishy as it was only argued by someone who formed his own Kurdish party in opposition to PKK. There is no hardcore evidence or even there is no evidence of women statements who are harmed like this. However if this issue happened we should condemn them and Ocalan for that.

This is not true. This wasn't argued by one dissident, this was argued by all the dissidents who left the PKK - and they were among the founders of this organization. And there is plenty of evidence of women statements who are harmed like this. Of course Ocalan himself doesn't even deny it. In a book written by him in 1992 titled Cozumleme, Talimat ve Perspektifler (Analyses, Orders and Perspectives), he stated: “These girls mentioned. I don't know, I have relations with thousands of them. I don't care how anyone understands it. If I've gotten close with some of them, how should this have been? (…) On these subjects, they leave aside all the real measurements and find someone and gossip, say 'this was attempted to be done to me here' or 'this was done to me there'! These shameless women both want to give too much and then develop such things. Some of the people mentioned. Good grace! They say 'we need it so, it would be very good' and then this gossip is developed (…) I'm saying it openly again. This is the sort of warrior I am. I love girls a lot, I value them a lot. I love all of them. I try to turn every girl into a lover, in an unbelievable level, to the point of passion. I try to shape them from their physique to their soul, to their thoughts. I see it in myself to fulfill this task. I define myself openly. If you find me dangerous, don't get close!”

As for today, being a Kurd living in Turkey, I get mixed with their circles every now and then and aside from hearing many stories have met several victims as well. In many of these cases, as it is with most rape cases, the victims can't even come out. In cases when they do, it is most often them who are blamed rather than the rapists. If you don't want to take my word for it then you don't have to of course.

All they have done will come out though, sooner or later it will come out.

Their "feminist" (they actually call it jinology or "womanology") propoganda isn't aimed at changing any of this. The family is a quite powerful institution in Kurdistan and forces many women into impossible situations where they in the end are forced to flee their homes from family violence or even honor killings. The PKK's propoganda is about them posing themselves as an alternative to the oppression of the family, so that they're the address for all these women who run away. They do it because they need more fighters, however the actual patriarchal familty structure aids them. They have no reason to change the patriarchal family establishment though because if it hadn't been there, those women wouldn't have to run off to the mountains in the first place. Hence their membership too is marked by such values and they have no need or reason to challange that either because, if nothing else, why risk losing the men? All they need, and all they do is to talk vaguely about women's liberation. It creates the desired image to the sufficient degree and as a side effect excites Western leftists.

Quote:
but I think we should evaluate on the change of opinion of Kurdistan Anarchist Forum as it might provide for us good insights.

They changed their position because they weren't a solid political group anyway. The PKK was a very unpopular organization in Iraqi Kurdistan before due to their actions during the 1991 uprising, which was the reason this group had such a position in the first place. As the PKK's image has been improving, it is completely normal that they've changed their perspective.

Anarchists of Kurdish ethnicity (as well as others) that I know consider "Kurdish anarchist" groups as a form of national anarchism, rightly saying that anarchism can't have national colors.

Marx-Trek
Oct 10 2014 20:21

national anarchism? could you please clarify? National anarchism could have different meanings.

Leo
Oct 10 2014 20:54

Kurdish anarchism like socialism with Chinese characteristics though obviously not like German national socialism.

kurekmurek
Oct 10 2014 22:23

I really do not want to do this, we should not be doing this now under this heading, but here again I am trying to correct some mistakes in the representation of Kurdish Movement.and unfortunately all you know seems to come from this particular link I guess: http://en.internationalism.org/icconline/201304/7373/internationalism-on...

Quote:
This is not true. This wasn't argued by one dissident, this was argued by all the dissidents who left the PKK - and they were among the founders of this organization. And there is plenty of evidence of women statements who are harmed like this.

who by whom? If you check the webpage linked below in the article you will see the website of Selim Curukkaya. He is the same guy I mentioned in above comments that separated from PKK and founded his own Kurdish movement criticized Ocalan and is killed.
To gain more info I wrote down the name of the book to internet only 6 results come up. first one is the website above 2. is a quotation of it in a web forum kind of website. 3. one is the internationalist website. 4. is again a quote from the first one in revleft website. 5. is afain from the first website. and last one is a website with serious coding problems but it is again the same quote. So basically all i can learn is that Selim Curukkaya once wrote it. But there seems to be no sign of even existence of this book. There is no mention of this book. I am really open to discuss it but I can not find the book. Really and in all honesty, If anyone can supply me with it of some sort I would be happy.But under this conditions I really would like to ask you how are you really sure this is definitely true and well documented there are thousands etc??? How are you sure about it? As I can only find one article that mentions the book and it only quotes like 10 sentences from it? How it is gone? Did PKK erased it from all internet what is it?

Quote:
As for today, being a Kurd living in Turkey, I get mixed with their circles every now and then and aside from hearing many stories have met several victims as well. In many of these cases, as it is with most rape cases, the victims can't even come out. In cases when they do, it is most often them who are blamed rather than the rapists. If you don't want to take my word for it then you don't have to of course.

What you are a Kurd? and you know this instances?? You are just trying to frame people?? What are you talking about Do I need to believe you everything you say now? Please support your claims do not bullshit (I use this as it was directed to me before so it is ok I guess to use it?) By the way so maybe you read the 1992 book? In what language is it? Do you have it? Do you have any knowledge of it?

Quote:
They have no reason to change the patriarchal family establishment though because if it hadn't been there, those women wouldn't have to run off to the mountains in the first place.

So women go to hills to fight just because they have bad family lives and they are beaten by their fathers. so they have no political agency, no knowledge of wider political stuff etc.. I guess Kurd woman just stay at home and play with dolls. But suddenly their horrible father beats them so they run away and get tricked to go to hills and fight and die with "shitty weapons" so this is basically your analysis of Kurdish Women's Movement.

Quote:
Quote:
but I think we should evaluate on the change of opinion of Kurdistan Anarchist Forum as it might provide for us good insights.
They changed their position because they weren't a solid political group anyway. The PKK was a very unpopular organization in Iraqi Kurdistan before due to their actions during the 1991 uprising, which was the reason this group had such a position in the first place. As the PKK's image has been improving, it is completely normal that they've changed their perspective.

So it is totally unrelated that as this group was based on Europe (I guess formed in Europe after these people migrated there for mostly political reasons) and now they come to Rojava to see and experience the Autonomy project. You are totally sure that their being changed their opinion is not due to having experience but just because being non-solid in the first place. Happy for you though as you seem to be really solid as you seem to continue to believe what you believe without any evidence (except an internet article) (They wrote possibly the most detailed analysis about the Autonomy experiment with their own first hand accounts and interviews. Go read it. )

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Anarchists of Kurdish ethnicity (as well as others) that I know consider "Kurdish anarchist" groups as a form of national anarchism, rightly saying that anarchism can't have national colors.

I think as you settle the issue for us by saying "they are nationalist anarchists" we can all sleep well now

Leo
Oct 11 2014 00:14
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who by whom? If you check the webpage linked below in the article you will see the website of Selim Curukkaya. He is the same guy I mentioned in above comments that separated from PKK and founded his own Kurdish movement criticized Ocalan and is killed.

No, he is not. Selim Curukkaya actually is still alive as he managed to get away and he lives in Europe. Ocalan of course wanted him dead but that's another story.

The person who was murdered was Mehmet Cahit Sener and he lead a split from the PKK called PKK Vejin. He was killed in a joint operation of the Syrian intelligence agency and the PKK. His death was reportedly celebrated in the PKK camps. He was one of the founders of the organization, and one of the famous prison resistors in the Diyarbakir torture house.

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To gain more info I wrote down the name of the book to internet only 6 results come up. first one is the website above 2. is a quotation of it in a web forum kind of website. 3. one is the internationalist website. 4. is again a quote from the first one in revleft website. 5. is afain from the first website. and last one is a website with serious coding problems but it is again the same quote. So basically all i can learn is that Selim Curukkaya once wrote it. But there seems to be no sign of even existence of this book. There is no mention of this book. I am really open to discuss it but I can not find the book. Really and in all honesty, If anyone can supply me with it of some sort I would be happy.But under this conditions I really would like to ask you how are you really sure this is definitely true and well documented there are thousands etc??? How are you sure about it? As I can only find one article that mentions the book and it only quotes like 10 sentences from it? How it is gone? Did PKK erased it from all internet what is it?

In English, presumably. If you read Turkish, you'll see that the internet is full of reports of such incidents. You can even find interviews with some of the victims.

As for the book, it used to be available online on a pro-PKK website as a pdf although it seems to have been taken down. Nevertheless, you can see referances to it on several websites and you can read the quote in Turkish here: https://www.newroz.com/tr/forum/331689/apocu-hareketin-lk-kurbanlar-kadi... It is also referred to as the December 1992 Analyses (Aralik 1992 Cozumlemeleri).

Luckily, Ocalan's remarks are often compiled into other books so you can find part of the same quote in this book here, starting from page 372: https://rojbas1.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/kurdistanda-kadin-ve-aile.pd...

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What you are a Kurd? and you know this instances?? You are just trying to frame people?? What are you talking about Do I need to believe you everything you say now? Please support your claims do not bullshit (I use this as it was directed to me before so it is ok I guess to use it?)

Believe what you want but if you have any direct contact with the radical millieu in Turkey don't claim that you don't know about any of this because everyone here knows.

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So women go to hills to fight just because they have bad family lives and they are beaten by their fathers.

Or forced to marry men they don't want to marry, or are afraid of for their lives in honor killings etc.

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so they have no political agency, no knowledge of wider political stuff etc..

I'm sure they are generally Kurdish nationalists but a knowledge of wider political issues? No. People tend not to when they are teenagers.

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I guess Kurd woman just stay at home and play with dolls.

No, however joining the PKK is not really a good alternative.

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But suddenly their horrible father beats them so they run away and get tricked to go to hills and fight and die with "shitty weapons" so this is basically your analysis of Kurdish Women's Movement.

My analysis of the "Kurdish women's movement" is that it doesn't exist, that the PKK is actually a deeply macho and male-dominated organization which doesn't really challange the patriarchal family institution in Kurdistan and its propoganda about liberating women has solely the aim of recruiting the women who have to run away from the horrors of the patriarchy and it thus exploits this situation. Your mockery of the influence of the family in Kurdistan shows that you have no idea what you are talking about.

kurekmurek
Oct 17 2014 11:47

I really did not wished to do but I guess I need to please can I ask the International Communist Current about the validity of the text in their website titled "Internationalism is the only response to the Kurdish issue" Link: http://en.internationalism.org/icconline/201304/7373/internationalism-on...

As this text seems to be the base a lot of people develop their understanding of Kurdish Movement in this forum, I will ask for references and point out the obvious faults in the text:

1)

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The eighth party congress of the PKK approved on 16 April 2002 the so-called 'democratic' transformation. Hence, the party would seek 'liberation' through political rights for Kurds in Turkey and renounce violence, even though the current leader of the PKK, Murat Karayilan, still declared in 2007 that an independent state remains the principal objective of the organisation.

This implies PKK still had secret wishes for a nation state in 2007. However there is no reference to it. And on the contrary when I search internet I could only found this interview from 2007: http://istanbul.indymedia.org/tr/news/2007/01/163833.php In which he says exactly the opposite: "our call is not to organize a united Kurdistan"

2) This brings us to women and PKK part: Mehmet Cahit Sener's himself claims Ocalan threat women fighters as his lovers but there is no name, date nothing. There is no real evidence of any of his accusations (check yourself)

3) Selim Curukkaya's accusations that Apo had relations with thousands of women is more oblivious to me the books and reference he make are non-existent in internet only thing that can be found about Ocalan's book called Cozumleme, Talimat ve Perspektifler (1992) can not be found. He only mentions the book quotes like ten sentences. If you search yourself for the book you will find only 5 more pages and that are only pages that make reference or quote from text (use " " by the way otherwise you will see everything that has these three words.) If you search for it in its english name (Analyses, Orders and Perspectives) you will only find internationalism.org website and two more references to it (one of which is the above comment by Leo the other is a refrence in a revleft froum) So basically all I can find about the validity of this issue is not more than 10 websites. Most of them are forums only referencing others. Internationalism.org seems to be responsible to produce an English translation of the name,and the real source is Selim Curukkaya's website and its referenece to a book that nobody actually seems to mention any where in internet. So please decide how reliable is this source? This is like an bilingual island in internet.

------

Unfortunately I could not find any other argument based on something other than how natioanlist and double faced PKK is or what did Rosa Luxemburg said. So it is impossilbe to criticize but this text unfortunately seems to be a source of a lot of proofless biases against PKK and its current ideological position.

It is rather sad that for example part devoted to showing PKK is a deceptive illusion in terms of freedom of women is totally based on (very suspicious) accounts of two men (one of whose reference point itself can not be found) The whole part revolves around three men (including Ocalan). Nobody even needed to find women's account, what they think, what is their relation to such sexist organization.It just seems to written to frame Ocalan (and whole Kurdish movement)

There is no real analysis how Kurdish and Turkish bourgeoisie co-operate and how it oppress the Kurdish working class. These important issues are just jumped over with fancy words without any real references. This makes me think that writers have any real clue how the class operates in the Kurdish struggle

And lastly we are repeatedly called to be open our eyes to their cruel nationalism. The analysis here is so complex it is mind bending: PKK is national so it is bad (you are not convinced? here is a quote from Rosa) what is needed is Internationalism. I really can not comment on this as it is really uninformed account of Bookchinian arguments adopted by Kurdish movement (Neither his concepts nor his ideas are mentioned at all). Unfortunately It just sums the effort spent to analyse any of the current tendencies of the Kurdish movement.

Anyway in short I think this artificial misrepresentation of Kurdish movement caused by this text hopefully will not manage to convince more people in the future.

Pennoid
Oct 10 2014 23:56

Mods, banhammer on rape apologists? Does it work like that?