When patriotic "anarchists" tell a verity?

146 posts / 0 new
Last post
Foristaruso's picture
Foristaruso
Offline
Joined: 10-04-08
Jul 2 2014 14:01
When patriotic "anarchists" tell a verity?

There are only two citations from a man who is one of principal organizer of AWU web page written on his page on Facebook. They are words of Ukrainian patriot and warmonger;

«I will not go to meeting against the ATO (“anti-terror-operation” of Ukrainian forces in the East. – transl.). Because I think that the conflict in Donbass is one of illnesses which become worse if they are not cured. If the Ukrainian troops will withdraw, these fucking idiots from “people`s republics” will a) take control of territory; b) mobilize it own army; c) decide that they win over Ukrainians and conquer all now. Therefore if we listen to some naïve citizens who think that it is possible to enclosure ourselves from Donbass with a frontier line, we would obtain as a result a frontline and not a frontier. They will attack Kharkov, it`s sure. We all were shocked that the separatists in Zaporozhye were made run the gantlet in “corridor of shame”. But after events in Odessa, I think that these fucking idiots there would be alive if such a “corridor of shame” would be just in time organized in Odessa. And I think, we will look at Odessa after ATO and understand that if such a little fire would be organized just in time in the administration house of Donetsk, it could be called small losses. And I don`t want that we will in the end feel regret that the ATO was not organized in proper time” (https://www.facebook.com/sergii.kutnii/posts/839609146068808)

“The left detectors of ATO train at neglect of an elephant. This elephant is the Russian factor which is necessary to considerate. Why Russia didn`t make a military intervention until now? Because it afraid new sanctions… But it is clear now that when Russia can`t wage war with Ukraine openly, the Donetsk and Lugansk people’s republics can it… So it is clear that in a hypothetical situation of permission to republics to separate, Putin will push them to war with Ukraine… Putin will explicitly try to put into practice the same pattern as Milosevic with Republic Srpska (in Bosnia, - transl.). So there are no peaceful alternative to ATO. What is proposed by some left who fall into ill pacifism – is a way to Munchen, to a combination of shame and war” https://www.facebook.com/sergii.kutnii/posts/840916939271362

After the support of bourgeois pro-EU and pro-NATO Maidan coup, many AWU members support now the war of Kiev bourgeois regime against the bourgeois regimes in Eastern Ukraine. It is the support of one nationalists against the others. Infamy like for some "anarchists" in 1914 ((

Foristaruso's picture
Foristaruso
Offline
Joined: 10-04-08
Jul 2 2014 15:23

subprole's picture
subprole
Offline
Joined: 29-01-11
Jul 2 2014 17:12
Quote:
But after events in Odessa, I think that these fucking idiots there would be alive if such a “corridor of shame” would be just in time organized in Odessa. And I think, we will look at Odessa after ATO and understand that if such a little fire would be organized just in time in the administration house of Donetsk, it could be called small losses. And I don`t want that we will in the end feel regret that the ATO was not organized in proper time

I did not know that AWU have degenerated to a level where they accept (left) banderovites and national socialists from Right Sector as members.

Gepetto's picture
Gepetto
Offline
Joined: 28-10-12
Jul 2 2014 17:51

Well, I'm not sure I can believe you he's from AWU, though he likes some anarchist stuff on FB... while having a picture of Banderite as a cover photo

subprole's picture
subprole
Offline
Joined: 29-01-11
Jul 2 2014 20:33
Quote:
Well, I'm not sure I can believe you he's from AWU

Well, we know he will participate during an "inter"national libertarian summer camp in Kiev organised by AWU with at least 28 other people if we take a look at the guest list: https://www.facebook.com/events/785513184814432/ - Considering their influence I doubt there will be any non-members.

Quote:
Sergii Kutnii
6. Juni um 03:33 · Kiew

If you'd like to attend, please fill in the form

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/17PuRpL-0GPO27GCh3wKkTc_A-b4Z2srtBp-HaM-...

akai
Offline
Joined: 29-09-06
Jul 2 2014 20:42

Some international people were interested in this crew. Even SAC made their international visit and people from there have been throwing money around Ukraine. So, maybe somebody will go, but it rather points to some general degradation I suppose.

subprole's picture
subprole
Offline
Joined: 29-01-11
Jul 3 2014 10:54

More liberal-nationalist propaganda on nihilist.li (website of an AWU member / https://www.facebook.com/alexander.volodarsky, https://www.facebook.com/AnarchyAndOtherShit, http://shiitman.net/):

Quote:
The collapse of USSR in 1991, took Ukraine out of being a “colonial” to a modern “semi-colonial” country in relation to Russia. Ukrainian Declaration of Independence of 1991 was a declaration of separation of an abusive spouse in an abusive marriage; it was not a divorce certificate, it only was a separation without complete act of divorce and without the right of divorce for the abused spouse. Hence 2013 movement of Maidan was in essence a fight for the right of divorce for Ukraine: it was a struggle for complete independence from Russia. Unconditional and unilateral right of divorce is a fundamental human right after all. Afghanistan or Bangladesh can join EU if tomorrow they decide to do so without any Russian active intervention. But Ukraine could not. What defined the fundamental dynamics in Maidan movement was the necessity of ending their long history of Russian domination, the necessity of freedom of separation from indirect domination of Russia, a powerful authoritarian neighbor and former imperial master. Ukraine wanted to complete its status as an independent state while Kremlin considers it as a breakaway region that was really Russian. Hence Maidan was a battle cry of popular protests for a total political independence from Russian Federation.

Becoming a member of the European Union is a human right..

Quote:
Along with this tendency for political independence, there was a second urge at work, and that was the deep urge of Ukraine to join a bigger universal, to be part of bigger whole, to integrate with Western Europe, to participate in and directly interact with cultural, social, economic and political achievements of their brothers and sisters in Western world. Of course, by integration is not to mean territorial integration. After all, for man and for a nation, to be an independent part and to be a part of an integral whole is a human right.

Of course the Crimea is not allowed to separate from Ukraine..

Quote:
The Kremlin’s unjust intervention in Crimea will also strengthen the far-right in Kiev and in the western regions of the country (in the same way that Saddam’s initiation of the Iran–Iraq War which began on September 22nd, 1980 helped significantly to strengthen the position of Islamic [counter-] revolutionary guards (aka, Iranian Right Sector plus Iranian Svoboda combined) against Iranian revolution.

http://nihilist.li/2014/05/16/revolution-counter-revolution-ukraine-part...
http://nihilist.li/2014/05/17/revolution-counter-revolution-ukraine-part...

shiitman's picture
shiitman
Offline
Joined: 3-07-14
Jul 3 2014 11:11

Nihilist.li is not a private website of Alexander Wolodarsky, or AWU. There is collective up to 8 people, anarchists and libertarian marxists from Ukraine, Russia and Germany, and only part of them are in AWU. We publish different texts with different points of view.
The quotations are from text of K. Karo, american activist and journalist.
No text we publish on nihilist.li represents position of editors, or position of AWU, unless we tell it directly. We also have at this website texts which criticize AWU, if we find them interesting (as this one here - http://nihilist.li/2013/11/15/o-konstruktivnom-realizme/).

No text posted on facebook, on twitter, on nihilist.li or any website in the Intertnet represents the official point of view of AWU. Only our resolutions represent our point of view.

subprole's picture
subprole
Offline
Joined: 29-01-11
Jul 3 2014 11:25
Quote:
No text we publish on nihilist.li represents position of editors, or position of AWU, unless we tell it directly.

The publication of shit like this implies at least some consent with the positions expressed in this document if there is no distanciation.

Gepetto's picture
Gepetto
Offline
Joined: 28-10-12
Jul 3 2014 11:27

Yeah, why would you host it? On Libcom there are texts that represent many different viewpoints but such thing could be posted only "for reference".

shiitman's picture
shiitman
Offline
Joined: 3-07-14
Jul 3 2014 11:49

It is not picture of Banderite, it is a picture of Ostap Bender played by Alexey Mironov from classical comedy film "Twelve Chairs".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Chairs_(1976_film)
There are a lot of Russian and Ukrainian sarcastic jokes and internet memes about "banderits" and "bEnderits", about Bandera, Ostap Bender, Bender from Futurama and town Bendery which are very difficult to translate.

The word "banderite" is used by Russian-nationalist propaganda to stamp Ukrainian-speaking people. I am from Luhansk (Eastern Ukraine), there word "banderite" is a xenophobic cliche against all West-Ukrainians, and it is often said as "benderite". (here Putin approves my words: http://coub.com/view/10duw)
So, it is not about "Bandera" or "UPA" at all. Some jokes can be understand only in specifical cultural and language context.

Official statement of AWU against any kind of exculpation of Bandera and UPA:
http://avtonomia.net/2014/01/08/rezolyutsiya-z-yizdu-ast-pro-istorichnu-...

subprole's picture
subprole
Offline
Joined: 29-01-11
Jul 3 2014 11:56
Quote:
The word "banderite" is used by Russian-nationalist propaganda to stamp Ukrainian-speaking people.

Who cares? Stepan Bandera is seen as a "national hero" by a majority in Western Ukraine. Even this historian who is known for totally supporting the new regime in Kiev writes:

Quote:
Fascism never had a significant influence in eastern and central Ukraine, and was only important in west Ukrainian political life [...]

http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2010/feb/24/a-fascist-hero-in-democ...

Ablokeimet
Offline
Joined: 30-04-13
Jul 3 2014 11:56
subprole wrote:
Quote:
The word "banderite" is used by Russian-nationalist propaganda to stamp Ukrainian-speaking people.

Who cares? Stepan Bandera is seen as a "national hero" by a majority in Western Ukraine.

People who care about truth care. Just because a majority of people in Western Ukraine have illusions in the Fascist Bandera, it doesn't follow that it is valid to tar all people from Western Ukraine with the same brush. That the AWU is willing to denounce Bandera in the terms they have is a reasonable point in their favour. I still think their position on the current situation is distorted by nationalism, but let's not sink to abuse.

shiitman's picture
shiitman
Offline
Joined: 3-07-14
Jul 3 2014 12:07
subprole wrote:
Who cares? Stepan Bandera is seen as a "national hero" by a majority in Western Ukraine.

It is pretty xenophibic and discriminative statement.
Stalinists justify deportation of Crimean Tatars and Chechen-people in almost the same way, they describe them as "nations of collabortionists", "nations of fascists". The same about Western Ukraine.

It is ironic, Ukrainian nazis use the same rhetoric against Donbass, they try do stamp all the people there (not only separatists) as "putinists", "Russian chauvinists", to make them guilty for crimes of Yanukovitch, etc.

subprole's picture
subprole
Offline
Joined: 29-01-11
Jul 3 2014 12:26
Quote:
It is pretty xenophibic and discriminative statement.
Stalinists justify deportation of Crimean Tatars and Chechen-people in almost the same way, they describe them as "nations of collabortionists", "nations of fascists". The same about Western Ukraine.

It is ironic, Ukrainian nazis use the same rhetoric against Donbass, they try do stamp all the people there (not only separatists) as "putinists", "Russian chauvinists", to make them guilty for crimes of Yanukovitch, etc.

Where have I justified the hypothetic deportation of Western Ukrainians? This comment is not related to what I said at all. It is just a simple fact that most (!) - not all - people in Western Ukraine consider Bandera a "national hero". And of course this is related to the history of Nazi-collaboration in this region.

shiitman's picture
shiitman
Offline
Joined: 3-07-14
Jul 3 2014 12:47
subprole wrote:
This comment is not related to what I said at all. It is just a simple fact that most (!) - not all - people in Western Ukraine consider Bandera a "national hero". And of course this is related to the history of Nazi-collaboration in this region.

This comment was an answer to my statement: "banderites is used as a xenophobic cliche against West Ukrainians (in Eastern Ukrainie) and against all Ukrainian-speaking people (in Russia)".
So, it sounded like "it is ok to use this cliche, who cares".

Really, nobody cares. In my hometown Luhansk you may be offended just for using Ukrainian language, because it is a "banderite" language. So workers and farmers from West-Ukraine and Central Ukraine, who come to cities in Donbass always faced dicrimination.

Rridiculous and shameful cult of Bandera has to be destroyed, but pseudo-anti-banderite xenophobic prejudices against West-Ukrainians, and Ukrainian-speaking people also have to perish.

subprole's picture
subprole
Offline
Joined: 29-01-11
Jul 3 2014 13:17

Television appearance by AWU law expert, fucking ridiculous: http://avtonomia.net/2014/07/03/predstavnik-ast-pro-nebezpechnij-zakonop...

Gepetto's picture
Gepetto
Offline
Joined: 28-10-12
Jul 3 2014 13:17
shiitman wrote:
It is not picture of Banderite, it is a picture of Ostap Bender played by Alexey Mironov from classical comedy film "Twelve Chairs".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Chairs_(1976_film)
There are a lot of Russian and Ukrainian sarcastic jokes and internet memes about "banderits" and "bEnderits", about Bandera, Ostap Bender, Bender from Futurama and town Bendery which are very difficult to translate.

Okay. Though it doesn't change the content of this person's Facebook posts.

Gunner
Offline
Joined: 3-07-14
Jul 3 2014 13:25

Actually, the picture of Ostap Bender, a fictional hero, dressed as banderite means that nationalists are cheaters (like Ostap Bender himself).

It's better to judje AWU on our deeds. The last one is clearly can be described as anti-patriotic: http://avtonomia.net/2014/06/30/yak-skoro-nazvut-usih-nas-posobnikami-te... a criticism of the law, that makes possible to shoot unarmed citizens and introduces military censorship in the ATO area. Not mentioning our campaign against social cuts by ukrainian and local authorities and capitalists, that is going to be.

subprole's picture
subprole
Offline
Joined: 29-01-11
Jul 3 2014 16:00
Quote:
[...]a criticism of the law, that makes possible to shoot unarmed citizens and introduces military censorship in the ATO area [...]

This is worthless garbage if members of AWU distribute nationalist (actually almost fascist) war propaganda: https://www.facebook.com/sergii.kutnii/posts/839609146068808

Quote:
And I don`t want that we will in the end feel regret that the ATO was not organized in proper time [...]

http://l-instant.parismatch.com/Jour-apres-jour/Ukraine-Lougansk-les-civ...

shiitman's picture
shiitman
Offline
Joined: 3-07-14
Jul 3 2014 16:34

"Worthless garbage" should be an opinion of person who doesn't understand Ukrainian political and social context, and is not involved in any class struggle happening there.

I am from Luhansk, I have my friends and relatives living there. Serhiy Kutniy is also from Eastern Ukraine (also Luhansk-area, if I am not wrong), he has his relatives there.
These are his, not yours relatives who are in danger every day because of criminals from "Peoples Republic" or incompetent shooting of Ukrainian army. It is Serhiy who was once attacked and brutally beaten by Ukrainian neonazis, and may be attacked every other day as any AWU-member. For us it is a question of life and death, for you or for topic starter it is just some kind of virtual game.
http://nihilist.li/2014/05/28/razvlechenie-dlya-bely-h-gospod/

And once more about quotations.

We are not so happy as KRAS, and our organisation is a bit bigger, than one man, so it may happen, that there are different personal opinions inside this organisation. And we have right to have our personal opinions.
That's why our position should be judged by our actions (support of refugees from war-zone, protests against social cuts, protests against "anti-terrorist laws") and by our official publications, not by some out-of-the context quotations of facebook posts.

subprole's picture
subprole
Offline
Joined: 29-01-11
Jul 3 2014 17:03

Every sentence of your last comment is so wrong in many aspects I won't reply (also because you legitimise the state propaganda of this AWU patriot). But maybe your are right and the Ukranian army should just attack the cities and villages in the East with more "competence"... As your name suggests you are full of shit, shiitman.

2C-B
Offline
Joined: 7-05-14
Jul 3 2014 18:52

If the guy you try to blame is a patriot or nationalist, you should give examples of statements that directly proove it.

Patriotism means supporting of state sovereignty or governent power because it is, in patriotic meaning, valuable in itself. Nationalism adds the value of nation, that stands over the others and is also valuable in itself.

By your claim Sergii Kutnii's facebook statuses should be written about defending of motherland, supporting ukrainian folk and building a strong nation.

But the quotes of Sergii Kutnii you posted here say definitely nothing that could be counted as patriotism or nationalism. So Your claims do not make sense.

Gepetto's picture
Gepetto
Offline
Joined: 28-10-12
Jul 3 2014 19:05

By supporting "anti-terrorist operation" he sides with "his" own government, what more do you want?

2C-B
Offline
Joined: 7-05-14
Jul 3 2014 20:15
Gepetto wrote:
By supporting "anti-terrorist operation" he sides with "his" own government, what more do you want?

Well, there is a big difference between supporting ATO because of patriotic or nationalist delusions ("I support the troops because they defend motherland and cick ass to the enemies of my nation") and objective assessment of the class interests of ukrainian proletariat, in wich successfull anti-terrorist operation will return peace and regular class war work, unlike long-term war or formation of fascist states from separatist's juntas.

This means just that ukrainian proletariat has no power to finish with war by the class's own forces unlike ukrainian troops. Also this idea doesn't oppose to anti-state class position because it is a FUCKIN ANALYSIS of reality. Of course we all can blame equal two sides of war conflict and repeat anti-war mantras, but the truth is that this methods DOES NOT WORK.

When historican say that capitalism is a mandatory prerequisite for the emergence of communism it doesn't means that he supports capitalism or is capitalist himself. It just means that this is the fuckin reality of our fuckin civilisation. The same thing is about this fuckin war that will not end because of someone's anti-war mantras.

Gepetto's picture
Gepetto
Offline
Joined: 28-10-12
Jul 3 2014 20:47

No, anyone who supports ATO is calling for increase of this capitalist barbarism. And you are just mirroring rhetoric of pro-Putin leftist idiots.

Fascist bandits in Kiev are harrassing people who try to struggle against austerity measures that are already being imposed and you want to strengthen the government as whose stormtroops they are acting!

subprole's picture
subprole
Offline
Joined: 29-01-11
Jul 3 2014 20:45

Psychopaths like 2C-B should enlist at the Ukranian national guard or at some of the other volunteer battalions and get himself FUCKIN KILLED by the separatists if he wants to shoot some Western film. THIS might rather be in the class interest of the proletariat in Ukraine.

2C-B
Offline
Joined: 7-05-14
Jul 3 2014 20:48
Gepetto wrote:
No, anyone who supports ATO is calling for increase of this capitalist barbarism. And you are just mirroring rhetoric of pro-Putin leftist idiots.

Fascist bandits in Kiev are harrassing people who try to struggle against austerity measures that are already being imposed and you want to strenghten the government as whose stormtroops they are acting!

Man, did you where in Ukraine last half of a year? How can you know what's going on here better then me if I live in Kiev and see everything with my own eyes?

Gepetto's picture
Gepetto
Offline
Joined: 28-10-12
Jul 3 2014 20:55
2C-B wrote:
Gepetto wrote:
No, anyone who supports ATO is calling for increase of this capitalist barbarism. And you are just mirroring rhetoric of pro-Putin leftist idiots.

Fascist bandits in Kiev are harrassing people who try to struggle against austerity measures that are already being imposed and you want to strenghten the government as whose stormtroops they are acting!

Man, did you where in Ukraine last half of a year? How can you know what's going on here better then me if I live in Kiev and see everything with my own eyes?

So these events: http://libcom.org/forums/news/kiev-workers-against-austerity-03072014 didn't happen?

2C-B
Offline
Joined: 7-05-14
Jul 3 2014 20:58
subprole wrote:
Psychopaths like 2C-B should enlist at the Ukranian national guard or at some of the other volunteer battalions and get himself FUCKIN KILLED by the separatists if he wants to shoot some Western film. THIS might rather be in the class interest of the proletariat in Ukraine.

Hey, what is this war for you? Pictures and videos in the news and nothing more. What can you propose to Ukrainian working class except of antiwar mantras? How can you fuckin know, how do we live here during this fuckin war? Take a visit to Sloviansk and you will be tortured or sent into the penalty troops by separatists if you reveal your political position. Or try to live somewhere in non-separatist regions and feel the social cuts, try to live for 200$ per month.

It is very cool to sit somewher outside of war and to give advises. Oh, you can not do even that.

akai
Offline
Joined: 29-09-06
Jul 3 2014 21:00

As somebody from Poland, I am quite astonished by the publication of crap texts which mislead the working class into thinking that some sort of national independence from Russia and alligning with Western Europe (read EU) is something which is in anybody's interests. It is in the interests of the elite, both financial and cultural who flow into European cultural and subcultural elites and the ruling classes whereas there are few benefits for the bulk of the working class. Ukraine is probably in for even a worse time than Poland when full liberalization finally sets in. I consider it to be pretty silly to spread texts like that. BTW, the same kind of ideas have been found in a lot of different texts floating around.

Here you can't claim that there is any specific Ukrainian situation that people don't know or any reason to think that Ukrainian workers would benefit in the same conditions that Polish, Czech and Slovak workers are being skinned alive.