Is Primitivism anarchist?

Primitivism is anarchism taken to its logical conclusion
0% (0 votes)
Anarchism and primitivism are not related at all
74% (20 votes)
Not completely but there is a close connection
26% (7 votes)
Total votes: 27

Comments

Steve Booth
Aug 18 2005 09:45

Hello everybody,

Sorry if this question has been asked before:

In what way (if any) is 'anarcho-Primitivism' anarchist?

Any ideas?

best wishes

Steve Booth

Lazy Riser
Aug 18 2005 11:57

Hi

Primitivsm is as anarchist as, say, Christian Anarchism.

Tolerated but not endorsed. I have no problem with the Woodcraft folk etc, and am happy to accommodate them in my post-revolutionary vision. I hope they can show us high-tech chrome plated galaxy spanning types the same respect.

Love

Chris

revol68
Aug 18 2005 13:28

heres another question though, what has Steve Booth got to do with anarchism other than being either a) an embarrasment with his crack pot theories or b) a state asset?

for your own sake I hope you are a state asset cos if you really are as deluded as you come across I have nothing but pity.

kalabine
Aug 18 2005 15:18
Lazy Riser wrote:
Hi

Primitivsm is as anarchist as, say, Christian Anarchism.

Tolerated but not endorsed. I have no problem with the Woodcraft folk etc, and am happy to accommodate them in my post-revolutionary vision. I hope they can show us high-tech chrome plated galaxy spanning types the same respect.

Love

Chris

i agree, i imagine primmos would be allowed to live on their own reservations where no technology or language or whatever is allowed, and everyone dies from rhumetism before 40, while we go on to construct arcologies and other cornacopian technologies 8)

revol68
Aug 18 2005 15:44

I think the Social Workers syndicate will be the place to be in a post revolutionary society.

"Please don't take my baby away, I promise not to feed it any more tofu or let him play with Granpa Hakim Bey!"

"Too late hippy, your kids going with me. Come on kids, do youse wanna Play computer games!""

"YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!"

"Fuck you mum, fuck you and your ketamine habit"

Another result.

Steve Booth
Aug 18 2005 20:17
revol68 wrote:
heres another question though, what has Steve Booth got to do with anarchism other than being either a) an embarrasment with his crack pot theories or b) a state asset?

for your own sake I hope you are a state asset cos if you really are as deluded as you come across I have nothing but pity.

I think this is a worthless contribution.

revol68
Aug 18 2005 20:25
Steve Booth wrote:
revol68 wrote:
heres another question though, what has Steve Booth got to do with anarchism other than being either a) an embarrasment with his crack pot theories or b) a state asset?

for your own sake I hope you are a state asset cos if you really are as deluded as you come across I have nothing but pity.

I think this is a worthless contribution.

That was a horrible thing for your mothers midwife to say! No wonder your so fucked in the head.

Jacques Roux
Aug 18 2005 21:16

Leave it out in the 'nice' forum you two...

Refused
Aug 18 2005 21:42

Primitivism is the nightmarish lovechild of luxury and lunacy.

Steve Booth
Aug 19 2005 16:02
Refused wrote:
Primitivism is the nightmarish lovechild of luxury and lunacy.

Tha's a good comment.

I think the way forwards towards answering the question is to ask:

(a) Is Primitivism a theoretical body of ideas which leads to a programme of activity intended to alter society?

(b) Does Primitivism merely remain a Postmodern collection of theories, mere words, texts, which are not intended to lead to any sort of practical social programme?

pingtiao
Aug 19 2005 16:25

(c) Is primitivism a product of insane navel-gazing hippies, so caught up in their own moralising that they fail to take any notice of the gap between what they think they desire, and what the rest of the world is prepared to tolerate

Refused
Aug 19 2005 16:56

(d) Is it just a platform for technophobes to get together and to discuss how much they hate computers and other confusing gadgets?

Steve
Aug 19 2005 17:16

(e) or just a load of old bollocks?

Steven.
Aug 19 2005 17:19

Shame they all left here, eh? Mr giving-birth is painless, Mr Shoot the nuclear waste into the Sun and Mr Dig-up-the-animal-testers-dead-mothers. They were ace. sad

meanoldman
Aug 19 2005 18:12

If primitivism is anarchist then I'm finding myself a new label.

JDMF
Aug 20 2005 08:25

while i am in the camp that sees primitivism as stupid, useless, alienating and dangerous, what is inherently anti-anarchist about it if people want to live like that?

Privitivists (falsely) seek to mirror some societies based on gatherer-hunters, or small scale undeveloped agricultural communities: is there something inherently anti-anarchist about it?

Also, the primitivists who i know of, and who don't really fit into the stereotype of a primitivist usually portrayed on this board, believe that there will be an industrial collapse and people will need to find ways of living in that situation. Kind of like deep green version of historial determinism smile

cantdocartwheels
Aug 20 2005 12:45

Its a cult, we shouldn't even be talking about it. As cults go its not even got a following worth worrying about, their are about twenty of them in the UK or something, and of those only about half are actually mad enough to apply their ideas to their own lives.

If someone wants to go and live in the woods they're free to do so, afterall they'd die off within a few weeks anyway.

l'agité
Aug 20 2005 15:47

... in France Primitivism doesn't exist really ...it's lucky... Zerzan nor Bob Black are not traducts in French (i see just a text of Zerzan in a Fanzine). And i hope nobody will have the idea a day to diffuse theirs books... But i respect men or women who want to exist civilisation and live in forest but it's not anarchism, i don't understand why this guys names themselves "anarchists" when nothing in what they wants is anarchism... it's strange...

I dont' know very well primitism, but it seem to be only developped in USA & England .... why ?

L' A G I T é

Steven.
Aug 20 2005 16:19

I think it's the result of defeatism - in the UK and US the workers' movement's been more comprehensively beaten/co-opted than elsewhere.

JDMF
Aug 20 2005 16:51

I agree with john, when talking to people who have been infected by these primitivist ideas/zerzan etc they are extremely disillusioned of any possibility for positive change.

But here comes the contradiction: at the same time the same people glorify uprisings in latin america, algeria and whatnot (seems like all primitivist minded people are insurrectionists as well?).

ok, hands up and admit: who has read days of love nights of... can't remember what it is?

redyred
Aug 20 2005 21:05
JDMF wrote:
ok, hands up and admit: who has read days of love nights of... can't remember what it is?

I noticed that one on John.'s bookshelf last night, as it happens.

lucy82
Aug 20 2005 21:43
Quote:
Its a cult, we shouldn't even be talking about it. As cults go its not even got a following worth worrying about, their are about twenty of them in the UK or something, and of those only about half are actually mad enough to apply their ideas to their own lives.

If someone wants to go and live in the woods they're free to do so, afterall they'd die off within a few weeks anyway.

well you could look at this from this angle, to the majority of the population libertarian communism is a cult too with a following not worth worrying about.

subcultures don't ya just love them?

tongue

i agree though that disillusionment has a lot to do with it and actually people who want to live as "naturally" as they think is possible are only reacting to the doomsday ecological scenerio which we are all aware of. there aren't that many primitivists around anyway in the uk (could probably be counted on the fingers of one hand). and there are at least as many wacky ideas floating around at the average more mainstream leftie meeting (like the idea that the unions will defend the working class if we only tell them what the problem is. duh) so i don't really get why people are so bothered about it. is primitivism anarchist? well i sort of agree with JDMF and John but really why does primitivism attract so much attention on libcom? every so often the primmie thing comes up yet again and arguments like "bringing the word anarchism into disrepute" "will put off potential anarchists" come out as justification for slagging off the primmies..

what repute? there are other targets more worth attacking on that basis than a few primmies. like probably your next door neighbour or the mainstream media for example. as for putting off potential anarchists, at least give people who are thinking overtly politically some credit for having half a brain.

there are a lot of good tree hugging crusties around. the question should be why do some people feel that primitivism offers a solution? and how, as an anarchist, do you address that? cause primitivism is only the extreme manifestation of that fear and disillusionment. i've had variations on the same doomsday theme from young people when i've been doing stuff. and the fatalistic acceptance of ecological doomsday as inevitable worries me far more than a few people choosing to live a rather unusual lifestyle. attacking primitivism is really pretty useless.

big al
Aug 24 2005 12:34

While I see Primitivism as a complete load of bollocks and absolutely unachievable, possible only at the hands of Fred Flintstone, I would be interested to read more about it...can anyone recommend anything substantial written on the subject? Or is the pen/typewriter/computer slightly contradictory to theory... roll eyes

Steven.
Aug 24 2005 13:39
JDMF wrote:
I agree with john, when talking to people who have been infected by these primitivist ideas/zerzan etc they are extremely disillusioned of any possibility for positive change.

Ditto, either that or incredibly stupid, or with severe psychological problems, or just plain old misanthropist, or some combination thereof. But I do think most of these things stem from a defeated workers' movement. Well except the stupid bit.

Quote:
But here comes the contradiction: at the same time the same people glorify uprisings in latin america, algeria and whatnot (seems like all primitivist minded people are insurrectionists as well?).

Most primmos seem to be like Maoist third-worldists, thinking the only hope comes from tribal people on the fringes of capital. Don't really think the primmos think too much of say the Argentine uprising, unless they just liked the burning cars. Which is probably true.

Quote:
ok, hands up and admit: who has read days of love nights of... can't remember what it is?

Trust funds?

I've read it yeah - Balls.

Thora
Aug 24 2005 13:49

I liked Days of War, Nights of Love.

Quote:
Do not be frightened by the Unabomber's willingness to stand out from the crowds and take whatever actions he believes are necessary to achieve his goals. In a civilization so stricken with mindless submission to social norms and irrational rules his example should be refreshing rather than horrifying; for his worst crimes are no worse than ours, in being citizens of this nation... and his greatest deeds as a dedicated and intelligent individual far outshine those of most of our heroes, who are for the most part basketball players and cookie-cutter pop musicians anyway.

At least, given the chance as we are, we should read his manifesto and come to our own conclusions, rather than allowing the press and popular opinion/paranoia to decide for us.

black bloc

Anarchoneilist
Aug 24 2005 15:03

Maybe the question is: can communism only be achieved

through primitivism?

Which is why I dislike being called a communist, although I am

into council communism and "social communism i.e tribalismish"..

OK, hows about:"What is it about Primitivism that makes people

type such absolute shite?"

Anyway, to be fair if you disregarded syndicalism the anarchist society

you'd end up with would be at least Proudhonist...and I have no arguments to back that up embarrassed red n black star

Volin
Aug 24 2005 18:18
big al wrote:
I would be interested to read more about it...can anyone recommend anything substantial written on the subject? Or is the pen/typewriter/computer slightly contradictory to theory...

I'm probably gonna get a kicking for even suggesting this in a friendly, for-your-curiosity way but for Primitivism you should check out;

John Zerzan (On Language, Art, Number, Time -smart but off his head)

Fredy Perlman (Against His-story; Against the Leviathan -pish)

and

Green Anarchy stuff (Mass Society etc.)

Thora brought up the Unabomber, his Manifesto's alright for an anti-civilisation/foaming at the mouth attack on everyone especially "the Left" and Feminists.

big al
Aug 24 2005 18:34
Volin wrote:
big al wrote:
I would be interested to read more about it...can anyone recommend anything substantial written on the subject? Or is the pen/typewriter/computer slightly contradictory to theory...

I'm probably gonna get a kicking for even suggesting this in a friendly, for-your-curiosity way but for Primitivism you should check out;

John Zerzan (On Language, Art, Number, Time -smart but off his head)

Fredy Perlman (Against His-story; Against the Leviathan -pish)

and

Green Anarchy stuff (Mass Society etc.)

Cheers Volin smile

I'm sure I'll get a good laugh out of it, as I did with old back issues of Black Flag with their great rants about Green Anarchist tongue

xeirecorex
Aug 25 2005 12:50

here are some texts on primitivism etc. - www.insurgentdesire.org.uk

Some of them are quite well written and manage to not just spout ancient marxist ideas - which makes it more interesting than half the anarchism I've read about on here.

Although I don' fully agree with the primitivist ideology, some anarchists are too dismissive (I was too before I read zerzan) of their ideas without actually being familiar with what primitivists actually want.

I'm not a primitivist but I really enjoy John Zerzans work and contrary to what someone above said about him being "off his head" he's seems to be a rather intelligent, together person. (check out his radio show or his part in "surplus")

revol68
Aug 25 2005 13:22

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