Should we publish in minority languages, of which nearly all of the speakers can speak the dominant language?

Yes
48% (16 votes)
No
39% (13 votes)
Unsure
12% (4 votes)
Total votes: 33

Posted By

Devrim
Mar 30 2006 10:08

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Lazy Riser
Mar 30 2006 15:01

Hi

Definitely. As a living language, Klingon can only be taught by society as a whole.

Love

LR

Serge Forward
Mar 30 2006 15:05

Weird. Who'd have thought it about Libcom?

The people who are continually saying gaelic, welsh, etc, are 'nationalist' languages and therefore crap are actually coming out with the heaviest nationalistic shite I've ever seen on this site.

What is the fucking matter with you?

martinh
Mar 30 2006 15:07
Serge Forward wrote:

In the 1960s unmarried mothers in Britain were still having their kids taken away from them to be adopted by middle class married couples.

Despite the racist, bigotted and religious rhetoric, the main excuse given for this sort of behaviour was always "best interests of the child" rubbish.

Serge,

agree with all the rest of your post, but while it may be true that unmarried mothers were forced to give up kids for adoption, it wasn't always forced (though there was a lot of social pressure) and certainy not only to middle class married couples. I should know... (Though perhaps this is a different thread smile )

Regards,

Martin

Serge Forward
Mar 30 2006 15:22
Jack wrote:
So to use an extreme example, if a family of geeks had a kid, and decided to raise it in Klingon, you don't think society has an obligation to step in?

Very unlikely, in fact it's a bloody silly example. But I'll answer you with a couple of true 'extreme' examples.

I know a French/Anglo couple. When they met, he didn't speak English, she didn't speak French. However, they both spoke Esperanto fluently. The kids' (who are now young adults) first language is of course Esperanto, as that was spoken in the home. They now also both speak French and English fluently, did well in their A levels, went to University, etc, etc. They are in no way 'disadvantaged'.

I know a woman who was born into a family in England that spoke only Italian in the home. The first day she started to learn English was her first day at school. She did well with her education, and as an adult, got what people would generally assume is a good job. Where's the disadvantage?

Your argument suggests their parents' language was tantamount to child abuse. Of course, neither family spoke Welsh or Gaelic in the home, so possibly would have been safe from your language police.

Your argument is just a load of anglo-nationalistic piss.

georgestapleton
Mar 30 2006 15:29
Serge Forward wrote:
Your argument is just a load of anglo-nationalistic piss.

Yep.

georgestapleton
Mar 30 2006 15:33
Jack wrote:
Except, not, because I'm not saying people should just speak English, I'm saying that it's better that people do than some Gaelic. I mean ffs, are you seriously going to pretend you wouldn't be pissed off if your parents decided to raise you speaking a language that only a tiny number of people spoke, and had almost 0 use internationally?

I was educated through Irish. I have a load of Irish speaking friends. I know a load of people form Dublin, Wicklow and Kildare (i.e around Dublin) who spoke Irish at home and I have never met, actually I have never even heard of anyone who was upset by the fact. In fact I've never even heard of any of these people not loving the language. So stop talking crap.

Steven.
Mar 30 2006 15:38
georgestapleton wrote:
John. wrote:
Pretending nationality and culture are in any way related is highly reactionary. Though george does it here:
georgestapleton wrote:
I don't give a shit if you 'don't give a fuck' if irish culture lives or dies. But I do care if irish culture lives or dies.

Is the paedophilia of some Irish people part of Irish culture?

What about Urdu groups within ireland, to use Bodach's example? What's the inherent link between nationality and culture in Ireland? If I moved there would I be part of Irish culture?

I don't see what you are getting at unless you want me to say gaelic culture. Which would be equally flawed. This is really silly. And actually really fucking offensive. I speak Irish and you're telling me not to, that i shouldn't that its a waste of time. Well you can fuck off, you have absolutely no right or authority to tell me what language to speak. I can't believe I have to say this on an anarchist forum.

I mention it because even your argument buddy here Bodach seems to agree with me about nationality and culture:

Bodach gun bhrigh wrote:
John. wrote:

Pretending nationality and culture are in any way related is highly reactionary.

which is why gaelic isn't nationalist

You haven't addressed my questions about culture and nationality at all george, just seemingly got really angry, which I don't quite understand. Particularly as what you're getting angry about is something which doesn't even exist - namely a complete "culture" for an arbitrarily defined "nation" which a: has no basis in actual reality and b: as an anarchist you presumably don't even think should exist as an arbitrary entity.

And yet I'm a nationalist? Nationality is complete bollocks.

Serge Forward
Mar 30 2006 15:45

Yes, Jack. It is tantamount to shouting child abuse. You have already said that it places kids at a disadvantage. I'd argue that having awful parents would be much more of a problem than the language spoken in the home.

Actually, I don't have a problem with people who might use klingon in the home. If they treated the kids well, the language would in no way be a hindrance. To do that though, the parents would like as not have an interest in actively learning languages (even if it is klingon) and that would make it a linguistic asset for the child. Bilingualism is generally beneficial to kids, and it really doesn't matter what the language is. Of course, this scenario is so unlikely because most klingon speakers have English as a first language, so they already have a common language anyway. And when you've got a common language already, using a second learned language just makes hard work of things.

martinh
Mar 30 2006 15:45
Jack wrote:
Except, not, because I'm not saying people should just speak English, I'm saying that it's better that people do than some Gaelic. I mean ffs, are you seriously going to pretend you wouldn't be pissed off if your parents decided to raise you speaking a language that only a tiny number of people spoke, and had almost 0 use internationally?

Jack

There are quite a few people on here whose first language is something that's not a lot of use internationally (Irish, Finnish, Gaelic) all of whom appear to think you are very wrong on this. Perhaps they've been brainwashed by their parents? Or nationalists?

IME it's actually native english-speakers, particularly those of us who happen to also be working class and from a BBC-unfriendly area (London, Tyneside, W.Midlands, Glasgow, Liverpool) who have a harder time communicating with people abroad. Now I've actually got no problem with that, per se, it's the reasons why it happens that piss me off. And guess what, they come down to class. So, my version of English won't be understood by most people from abroad because they've learnt the BBC version. Am I pissed off at my parents for talking to me in London English? Of course not. I just have to work harder when talking to them (and some may decide I don't actually work hard enough wink )

Regards

Martin

georgestapleton
Mar 30 2006 15:48

I don't think nation=nation state. There for nationality doesn't imply or cause nationalism. But I've had this argument with boul a million times before and it really comes down to what you think the word nation means. A rather silly argument that i'm not going to have again.

This disscussion is about language, not the nation so if you want to discuss what the word nation means I suggest you start a new thread and I will politely ignore it.

Quote:
what you're getting angry about is something which doesn't even exist

What i'm getting angry about is you and jack telling me not to speak irish, that i shouldn't that its a waste of time....when...you have absolutely no right or authority to tell me what language to speak.

And yes the irish language does exist.

Serge Forward
Mar 30 2006 15:51

Yes, I'm jolly well brassed orf with my parents for bringing me up to speak in a hideous Salford argot - which incidentally, in no way helped me to get a posh job. The deuce! Why couldn't they have spoken RP standard English? Awfully bad form, what! wink

Steven.
Mar 30 2006 15:52
georgestapleton wrote:
What i'm getting angry about is you and jack telling me not to speak irish, that i shouldn't that its a waste of time....when...you have absolutely no right or authority to tell me what language to speak.

What do I care what language you speak? confused

Why am I going to stop you? And where have I "told you not to speak Irish"? Have you got that 1982 WSM cartoon picture in your head or something?

If you want to speak Irish, go ahead. Of course, only speaking that would massively reduce the number of people on the planet you can communicate with, from what say about a billion to a few thousand, but that's your business...

Serge Forward
Mar 30 2006 15:53

Jack, it's you that keeps talking about 'society stepping in'? That tends to happen with child abuse, not with speaking an unpopular language.

Serge Forward
Mar 30 2006 15:56

In your book, the example of speaking Italian in the home was ok. But it was used solely with the family in the home during her childhood. So how was it of more benefit to her as a child than say, speaking welsh in a welsh language area?

JDMF
Mar 30 2006 15:58

jack, following your reasoning, you recon teaching the children of finnish migrant workers in Sweden and US finnish is a waste of time?

georgestapleton
Mar 30 2006 15:59
John. wrote:
georgestapleton wrote:
What i'm getting angry about is you and jack telling me not to speak irish, that i shouldn't that its a waste of time....when...you have absolutely no right or authority to tell me what language to speak.

What do I care what language you speak? confused

Why am I going to stop you? And where have I "told you not to speak Irish"? Have you got that 1982 WSM cartoon picture in your head or something?

If you want to speak Irish, go ahead. Of course, only speaking that would massively reduce the number of people on the planet you can communicate with, from what say about a billion to a few thousand, but that's your business...

Ahh a reasonable post. I was begining to worry about you John.

Just one last thing, if you don't care what language I speak then don't denigrate the languages that I do speak. Its really quite offensive.

Well actually you can make fun of me for speaking irish but do it on licommunity not on a political thread. Languages shouldn't be a political issue.

georgestapleton
Mar 30 2006 16:01

Actually its funny that you use finnish as an example. Finnish was a language that was almost extinct at the begining of the 20th century but was revived. It's one of the examples Irish language revivalist use most.

Serge Forward
Mar 30 2006 16:01
Jack wrote:
Altho in the case of Welsh certainly, I'd say that 90%+ of people who speak it as their main language ARE nationalist, and do it for nationalist reasons.

And probably 90% of British native English speakers are also nationalistic. 90% of Irish native English speakers are nationalistic. You'll find similar statistics for other countries, whatever the language.

So what's your point other than you hate Welsh and Gaelic?

Jack, only internationalists are... not nationalistic. We're in a minority the world over. Clearly, not even every anarchist is an internationalist.

georgestapleton
Mar 30 2006 16:11

N.B. 7 pages in 6 hours!!!!

Serge Forward
Mar 30 2006 16:11

The more society steps in the better, huh? What kind of socialism are you talking about Jack? Libertarian stalinism? No one is claiming parents should have any 'special rights'. What is important is that the child is cared for and happy. What the fuck has language got to do with it? Your comments about Welsh and Gaelic are clearly chauvinistic. Most unbecoming for a socialist.

Interestingly, you were more positive about Italian. Why? It's not in any way an international language. With the ascendancy of the English 'lingua franca'(!), in 50 years time, Italian (along with Greek, Portugese, Hungarian and many other European languages) will probably be in the same position Gaelic is in today.

Jack wrote:
But for a socialist, should happen for all sorts of things. I don't think parents have any special rights to decide for their child; that's a load of individualist shite. There are plenty of times short of noncing when society should step in and force things for the good of the child, whatever the parent may want - if they don't educate their kids, if they don't give vaccinations etc. etc.

Now obviously I think language is different, and you shouldn't 'force' them not to speak whatever load of crap they want - but they should be strongly encouraged to raise their kid in whatever the mainstream language for that individual is. If they wanna then later teach them some crap like Gaelic, then they can go for it and waste their time - but they shouldn't get the massive support and encouragement they get now, and it shouldn't be treated as anything more than a rather pointless hobby.

JDMF
Mar 30 2006 16:13
Jack wrote:
It depends. I certainly think if they're in Sweden they should be brought up in Swedish or if in the US English - but obviously there are wider factors. If there's some reason (they're planning to go back, have family members who don't speak English/Swedish etc.) then there's no reason why not to teach the kid child too. But I definatly think it'd be wrong to (unless totally impossible, eg. if they didn't speak the language) the raise the kid in the language of the country they're growing up in.

one thing to remember is that kids soak this stuff really easy. Learning a language as a kid is piss easy, my cousin who lives in sweden, has a finnish mother and chilean father speaks all three languages fluently - at age of 6. Sweet 8)

Anyways, if i breed or adopt, i will teach the kid finnish even if i lived in south africa just to take the piss. It is such a weird language wink

Serge Forward
Mar 30 2006 16:15
JDMF wrote:
Anyways, if i breed or adopt, i will teach the kid finnish even if i lived in south africa just to take the piss. It is such a weird language ;)

And Jack'll be there to see your kids get taken into care wink

Steven.
Mar 30 2006 16:17
georgestapleton wrote:
John. wrote:
georgestapleton wrote:
What i'm getting angry about is you and jack telling me not to speak irish, that i shouldn't that its a waste of time....when...you have absolutely no right or authority to tell me what language to speak.

What do I care what language you speak? confused

Why am I going to stop you? And where have I "told you not to speak Irish"? Have you got that 1982 WSM cartoon picture in your head or something?

If you want to speak Irish, go ahead. Of course, only speaking that would massively reduce the number of people on the planet you can communicate with, from what say about a billion to a few thousand, but that's your business...

Ahh a reasonable post. I was begining to worry about you John.

So you misrepresent my position throughout this debate, then get angry and start with "fuck off"s, etc., refuse to answer any of my points to you, then then patronise me!

Quote:

Just one last thing, if you don't care what language I speak then don't denigrate the languages that I do speak. Its really quite offensive.

When have I done that? A link please.

I don't even have to denigrate anything, you basically acknowledge my point anyway, though you may not like it, because you're here, speaking English. And the WSM and struggle websites are both in English - a very good thing, since they can be read potentially by hundreds of millions, not hundreds, of workers.

Well actually you can make fun of me for speaking irish but do it on licommunity not on a political thread. Languages shouldn't be a political issue.

Steven.
Mar 30 2006 16:20

I say bring them up with as many as possible.

Serge Forward
Mar 30 2006 16:22

Klingon! Or how about Toki Pona?

Steven.
Mar 30 2006 16:24
Jack wrote:
John. wrote:
I say bring them up with as many as possible.

That's dodging. There's clearly going to be one 'main' language - even in multi-lingual countries people generally have a 'main' language - what gets spoken most often, what is reverted to when parents get angry, what's on TV, in the books / TV programmes you watch etc. etc.

That's what I'm asking.

It's a dumb question, stuff's more spontaneous than that. My sister, for example, spoke italian with my mum, and english with everyone else.

Serge Forward
Mar 30 2006 16:52
revol68 wrote:
right can everyone ignore Jack.

I thought the issue was to do with the praticalities of tiny lil organisations printing literature in tiny minority languages that are spoken exclusively by next to no one. Especially when they're are thousands of immigrants around who can't actually read english and would probably be much more receptive to the literature than some fucking sheep shagging peasant who only exists in Kerry Cheddar adverts.

and George you've been asked to justify your convenient seperation of nationality from nationalism before and have never once managed it in a convincing manner.

It's nothing personal against a lot of these languages. It's just that the AF had a member who spoke Scots Gaelic and a sympathiser who spoke Welsh who donated their labour gratis. If we had members who spoke, say, Gujerati, then I'm sure we'd have stuff in that language too. But as far as I know, we haven't got any Gujerati speakers.

phoebe
Mar 30 2006 17:04

Differences in language are inevitable. Language develops and mutates at different speeds in different regions. I see no need to preserve or "save" languages as they're not static (and neither is culture). On the other hand I find the idea that people should have a different language forced on them or suggestions that we should all speak 1 primary language worryingly authoritarian (and I don't believe that it's a tenable suggestion without authoritarian enforcement).

I know people in Spain who speak Euskara but aren't remotely into Basque nationalism. I don't really know if that's the general case, but when I stayed there for a while it seemed to be something that most people spoke with other Euskara speakers just because it was there to be spoken.

Oh, and a couple did try to bring their kid up Klingon/English bilingual, but the attempt failed shortly after the kid started to school.

Personally, I think that in the case of propaganda, you're trying to appeal to as many of the working class as you can. In terms of translation, that means first of all they've got to understand what you're saying and second they should be able to understand it without too much difficulty.

So basically, take a utilitarian perspective to it, perhaps taking extra effort to focus on groups of people who don't speak the primary language of the region.

martinh
Mar 30 2006 17:06
Jack wrote:
JDMF wrote:
Anyways, if i breed or adopt, i will teach the kid finnish even if i lived in south africa just to take the piss. It is such a weird language ;)

Seriously, if you have kids here, what would be the first language you raised them with?

No dodging by saying they could learn 3 at once, you have to choose one. tongue

As I said earlier, it'll be the mother's. One reason why we have the phrase "mother tongue". It's one of the reasons why Jack's so wrong here - this sort of thing happens automatically. JDMF would have to make a big effort to teach any kids Finnish, esp as I am guessing the mother wouldn't speak it. But if they are exposed to other languages they will learn them if they are young enough. One of the reasons the British are so crap at languages is that we didn't start learning them until we were 11, and the part of the brain that's good at learning languages basically is diminished after about the age of 12. And it is also true that if you know 2 or 3 languages, new ones come much easier than if you only know one.

(note to self: ask Finnish-Algerian couple I know what language the kids spoke first - they all speak English obviously - and whether they know much Arabic).

It's also why no one will be brought up speaking Klingon, as it tends to be a bit of a male pursuit roll eyes

And as for Italian, it didn't exist 160 years ago. I don't think it'll die out, nor Hungarian, as it is not being repressed and both have a state behind them. Given the French state's Jack-like approach, I'd say Breton, Provencal and the other minority languages in France don't have good prospects, nationalists notwithstanding. Catala and Basque, though, have regional states backing them in Spain, so they won't have everyone speaking French. wink

Regards,

Martin

phoebe
Mar 30 2006 17:14
martinh wrote:
It's also why no one will be brought up speaking Klingon, as it tends to be a bit of a male pursuit roll eyes

Now you mention it, with the bilingual klingon/english couple, the father was speaking klingon to the child and the mother english. Both mother and father spoke it but the effect you're describing may have had an effect.

What's a real problem with Klingon being used as a proper language is a lack of basic useful words (apparently there isn't one for "table" for instance).