Should we publish in minority languages, of which nearly all of the speakers can speak the dominant language?

Yes
48% (16 votes)
No
39% (13 votes)
Unsure
12% (4 votes)
Total votes: 33

Posted By

Devrim
Mar 30 2006 10:08

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Devrim
Mar 31 2006 08:32

JDMF, regarding what you said about the Finnish kids, the work that Stephen Krashen did on the total immersion schools in Quebec is quite interesting.

Jef, Günaydin, if 40% of people speak Turkish where you live, I presume that you live in the Dalston/ Stoke Newington area. If so, you have probably seen the word ‘Devrim’ in graffiti, or on Stalinist banners. It means revolution not worker. Worker is ‘isçi’ . Devrim is not my name, but it is a common Turkish name. I do have one friend called Devrim, whose sisters are called Evrim (evolution), and Eylem (demonstration/movement/action), no prizes for guessing the political ideology of their parents.

I think that language revival movements are linked to nationalism. I think this is particularly true in Ireland. It is both the ideology of the state, and of the republicans. Culture is also linked to nationalism, and I think that defending national culture has problems too. Some of the Irish posters on this board got very heated yesterday. Yes, Revol does try to wind you up, and yes you do fall for it. Everytime! The Irish language revival movement is linked to politics. I don’t think that can be denied.

Last night I spoke to a Welsh speaker in my local pub (Ankara is such a cosmopolitan place!), and he agreed that the Welsh language in intrinsically linked to the nationalist movement. He just didn’t get annoyed with this because he supports it.

Capital does have a tendency to destroy languages. We can hold different views about how we imagine communism either as a world community speaking a common language, or one with a patch work of different languages, beautiful in its diversity. Language revival movements are not political neutral though. They are attached to nationalism, and we should be aware of this. They are often an attempt to build a national community or culture.

BB
Mar 31 2006 09:24
Jack wrote:
JDMF wrote:
"next friday" doesn't mean the next friday - obviously?!?! - but next weeks friday.

Yea, but people in different bits of the UK mean different things by this. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who means it as next weeks Friday is a cretin. tongue

I'm a cretin! Woo Hoo! If you didn't already know...

My ladies scottish, an she means this coming friday.

BB
Mar 31 2006 09:31
JDMF wrote:
the button wrote:
English is nuance mayhem for the non-native speaker.

too fucking right!

once i was an hour early to a meeting because people said "half one" - which to me means half of one, which clearly would be 12.30.

I'm sorry mate but that's just made me piss myself!

JDMF wrote:

oh the amount of domestic fights i have had with my native english speaking wife which are down to nuances and misunderstandings grin

I'd like to hear what she's got to say about that... wink

You must have learned by now that you're always wrong.

JDMF wrote:

Anyway: about translating material, if a volunteer exists, why not. Often people are keen on translating material, makes them feel like contributing something concrete and enjoying the process. No harm done.

Couldn't agree more!

BB
Mar 31 2006 09:41
Jack wrote:
Yea, so when I said a drink next Tuesday, we meant April 4th. tongue

Your wording "on Tuesday - you able to make it for a drink?" hence i knew what you meant! grin

I'm skint as usual, maybe though. Got paid yesterday, i've got £1.60 left. cry

Steven.
Mar 31 2006 09:42
BB wrote:
I'm skint as usual, maybe though. Got paid yesterday, i've got £1.60 left. cry

Just a half?

alyn gruffydd
Mar 31 2006 09:46

Bore Dda

from a non welsh speaking, welsh person, speaking english but living in exile in France, (and speaking french constantly in real life)

Yes minority languages can be linked to nationalist movements, but in the case of welsh, gaelic, breton, irish, cornish, galician and yes Basque, also more prominantly linked to a progressive pan celtic federation which has a few arguments with past colonisers, (anglo-norman-saxon) and in the case of the welsh attempted colonisers (romans.) As well as more recently stripping our land (which they, the norman aristocrats still own) of its economic resources (coal during the industrial revolution, water/electricity more recently) we were also victims of attempted cultural genocides (romans pushing the druids into the sea in Ynys Mon (Anglesey for non welsh speakers) and Oliver Cromwell who ordered the burning down of the Welsh language library at Raglan Castle in the 17th century, an act many put in the same league as the destruction of the Library in Alexandria, Egypt.

We don`t have short memories!, why should we when we`re offered an "Assembly for Wales", as opposed to of Scotland, and are now being offered a Governor General for Wales?

Bring back capitalist imperial colonisation, you know it makes sense....

And in the case of many of the Brits in England, many of you are celtic, you`ve just "forgotten" over the passage of time

Devrim
Mar 31 2006 09:49
Quote:
a progressive pan celtic federation

confused

the button
Mar 31 2006 10:00
revol68 wrote:
should i feck off back to France or Scotland?

France. It's further away. wink

Steven.
Mar 31 2006 10:07
the button wrote:
revol68 wrote:
should i feck off back to France or Scotland?

France. It's further away. :wink:

Or of course Africa where we'll all orginally from...

Joseph Kay
Mar 31 2006 10:14
John. wrote:
Or of course Africa where we'll all orginally from...

IMPURE RACE TRAITOR! Everyone knows we are stardust. Revol, feck of back to the sun! wink

Steven.
Mar 31 2006 10:15
Joseph K. wrote:
John. wrote:
Or of course Africa where we'll all orginally from...

IMPURE RACE TRAITOR! Everyone knows we are stardust. Revol, feck of back to the sun! ;)

The sun he came from won't still be here. It'll probably be a black hole or a brown dwarf or something.

Joseph Kay
Mar 31 2006 10:20
John. wrote:
The sun he came from won't still be here

Revol predates the solar system? You learn something every day on libcom wink

martinh
Mar 31 2006 10:21
the button wrote:
revol68 wrote:
should i feck off back to France or Scotland?

France. It's further away. :wink:

No it's not. Not from London, anyway. Scotland - 4 hours, France 2.

Maybe someone should ask Revol where he'd like to go?

And then whether the people there would be prepared to have him.

Regards

Martin

Steven.
Mar 31 2006 10:22
martinh wrote:
And then whether the people there would be prepared to have him.

No borders!

the button
Mar 31 2006 10:22
Joseph K. wrote:
Revol predates the solar system?

No, it can just feel that way sometimes. wink

the button
Mar 31 2006 10:24
martinh wrote:
the button wrote:
revol68 wrote:
should i feck off back to France or Scotland?

France. It's further away. :wink:

No it's not. Not from London, anyway. Scotland - 4 hours, France 2.

Oh yeah. embarrassed

You're forgetting that I calculate all distances from East Yorkshire, the centre of the universe. wink

alyn gruffydd
Mar 31 2006 10:26

http://www.socialforumcymru.org.uk./

Top World Author to kick off Social Forum Cymru Aberystwyth 29th April.

Kevin Cahill - Who Owns Wales - Colonial Reparations? http://www.socialforumcymru.org.uk

See www.amazon.co.uk

**'-Who Owns Britain' Kevin Cahill (2001).Book signing at Aber.

Table of Contents

Part 1.

Britains greatest secret-the ownership of land

-‘Who owns the World : The hidden facts behind landownership’ Kevin Cahill (2006. Orderable now but coming out Nov)

Synopsis

A breathtaking tome, "Who Owns the World" is of huge political, economic and social importance and is set to revolutionise our understanding of our planet, its history and its land. It is the first ever compilation of landowners and landownership structures in every single one of the world's 191 states and 41 territories. The book is divided into two parts: the first covers the history of landownership as far as written history will allow, while the second shows the division of landownership in every region of the world. Packed with revelatory information, the book: identifies the person who owns the most of the world's land and documents the landholdings; provides details of the next 50 top landowners and lists the next 1,000 thereafter; reveals the 100 most prominent aristocratic families who own over 60 per cent of Europe's land mass and who receive most of the EC's agricultural subsidy allowance; documents the vast landholdings of the four largest religious groups: the Catholic Church and the other Christian churches, the Islamic trusts and the temple possessions of the Hindus and Buddhists; covers in full the land of the British Empire, which amounts to one quarter of the planet's surface; details in special individual sections who owns America, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, China and Russia; contains a complete survey of the historic record of landownership, starting in Mesopotamia/Iraq in 8,000 BC. It lists many of the world's great Domesdays, going back to the earliest in Ptolemaic Egypt and includes an analysis of the legal structures reducing 95 per cent of the earth's population to the role of serfs in relation to landownership

Joseph Kay
Mar 31 2006 10:29

so bourgois nationalism against feudal aristocratic colonialism then?

martinh
Mar 31 2006 10:33
the button wrote:
martinh wrote:
the button wrote:
revol68 wrote:
should i feck off back to France or Scotland?

France. It's further away. :wink:

No it's not. Not from London, anyway. Scotland - 4 hours, France 2.

Oh yeah. embarrassed

You're forgetting that I calculate all distances from East Yorkshire, the centre of the universe. :wink:

Yes, that's why you're on a differnet GMT, Grimsby Mean Time as opposed to Greenwich. How Greenwich ever won out I don't know. I mean, it's not as if SE London isn't the centre of the world, is it?

wink

aketus
Mar 31 2006 10:38

it's GMT +11 hours here.

And it's totally fucked up because they changed daylight saving time to suit the Commonwealth (aka Stolenwealth) Games. Now all the servers at work are totally confused.

Anyway that's the third meaningless post for this evening. I'm going to bed. o/

alyn gruffydd
Mar 31 2006 10:47

Things are a bit busy in France rightnow, no time to go into detail, real world calls, lets just say more like a geographical/cultural manifestation of an internationalist movement going in the right direction for once...

But go and take a look, or read some of our history (along as it`s not that written by the romans, or anglo saxons for that matter)

try

http://www.espirito.org.br/portal/download/pdf/fr/leon-denis-le-genie-celtique-et-le-monde-invisible.pdf

sorry no references in english,

phoebe
Mar 31 2006 11:43

I take back what I said earlier. I've just had a look at Esperanto and it's a fucking horrid language. c^? Sure it was invented before linguistics, but having a conlang that requires new characters not used in *any other language* just plain sucks. Not to mention the fact that any constructed language where they maintain the tradition of having a word for "person" and a separate word for "woman" but no word for "man" is pretty fucking suspicious. It's not like women-as-derivative-of-man is ubiquitous in language or anything (at least if you look beyond Europe).

Ido looks vaguely promising.

I imagine that Basic English is far more practical as a global auxiliary conlang though, and that's got plenty of problems with it.

Serge Forward
Mar 31 2006 13:45
phoebe wrote:
I take back what I said earlier. I've just had a look at Esperanto and it's a fucking horrid language. c^? Sure it was invented before linguistics, but having a conlang that requires new characters not used in *any other language* just plain sucks. Not to mention the fact that any constructed language where they maintain the tradition of having a word for "person" and a separate word for "woman" but no word for "man" is pretty fucking suspicious. It's not like women-as-derivative-of-man is ubiquitous in language or anything (at least if you look beyond Europe).

Ido looks vaguely promising.

I imagine that Basic English is far more practical as a global auxiliary conlang though, and that's got plenty of problems with it.

The characters are used in other languages, that's why you'll find them all under 'symbol' in Microsoft Word.

Homo = person

Viro = man

Ino = woman (virino for the more conservative users).

So, you seem to have really clued yourself up before spouting off.

Probably less than a hundred people worldwide speak Ido. Dunno who speaks Basic English but it was intended to be a tool for international business and good old Winston Churchill was a big fan - see, it's more patriotic than the suspect 'jewish' Esperanto which was intended to be a tool for humanity, not business. I wonder if that's why a fair few anarchists speak Esperanto but (as far as I know) not one speaks Basic English?

Serge Forward
Mar 31 2006 14:37

And just to underline the fact that Esperanto does indeed have a place in anarchist tradition, here's a few famous anarchists from history, who all spoke the International Language:

Errico Malatesta, Augustin Souchy, Sebastian Faure, Rudlof Rocker, Ba Jin, Ito Noe, Osugi Sakae, A. Levandovsky, J.Zilberfarb, Julien Migny, Shusui Kotoku....

The Durruti Column even published a monthly Esperanto language buletin from the Aragon Front, which they sent out to thousands of readers worldwide.

And who spoke 'Basic English'? Winston fucking Churchill.

ftony
Mar 31 2006 15:24

can i just ask, isn't esperanto totally western-eurocentric?

its logical and etymological forms are completely english/french/german from what little experience i have of it.

so it's not really that international is it?

Serge Forward
Mar 31 2006 15:39
ftony wrote:
can i just ask, isn't esperanto totally western-eurocentric?

its logical and etymological forms are completely english/french/german from what little experience i have of it.

so it's not really that international is it?

Zamenhof knew polish, russian, german, latin, greek, hebrew, yiddish, possibly some English, and bits and bobs from other languages. So he drew from those to form the root word vocabulary. If he'd known Swahili, he'd have used that too. But he didn't. So he couldn't. The actual language structure is not western European but uses a number of suffixes and prefixes in order to boost a relatively small root vocabulary. There's an element of this 'word building' in Turkish and some far eastern languages. In fact, people from East Asia - Korea, Japan and China (which are Esperanto strongholds) find it less alien than European languages.

Question: just how fucking international does it have to be? roll eyes

Steven.
Mar 31 2006 15:46

I've seen estimates of Esperanto speakers at 1-2m. Which is not a lot. It doesn't really seem worth it confused

JDMF
Mar 31 2006 15:53

i LOVE different languages - they haven't born in a vacuum, they are products of the people involved, the cultures, customs, class, behaviours etc the whole lot.

Which is why you understand finns much better when you learn few things about the language (as an example i pointed out already that there is no word for "please").

The idea that we are just one global mass sounds terribly flat to me, and unifying languages seems like a project to polish down many of those nyances of culturess.

At the same time languages die, and thats not a big deal, but if there is a group big enough to sustain its continuous development, then i'm all for efforts to keep it alive.

edit: this is also a criticism for a need for an artificial language like esperanto.

nastyned
Mar 31 2006 15:53

Only one to two million people to speak to? Pah, obviously pointless. roll eyes

phoebe
Mar 31 2006 15:53
Serge Forward wrote:
The characters are used in other languages, that's why you'll find them all under 'symbol' in Microsoft Word.

Which ones (and I don't mean other conlangs)?

Quote:
Homo = person

Viro = man

Ino = woman (virino for the more conservative users).

So, you seem to have really clued yourself up before spouting off.

So you're saying that esperanto doesn't use a diminutive suffix to make default-masculine words feminine? ino is just an abbreviation of "virino" as far as I was aware. Anywho.

Quote:
Probably less than a hundred people worldwide speak Ido.

Yeah, but there aren't that many Esperanto speakers, and they're speaking a pointlessly broken language. Improving it in various ways would only be sensible.

Quote:
Dunno who speaks Basic English but it was intended to be a tool for international business and good old Winston Churchill was a big fan - see, it's more patriotic than the suspect 'jewish' Esperanto which was intended to be a tool for humanity, not business. I wonder if that's why a fair few anarchists speak Esperanto but (as far as I know) not one speaks Basic English?

fair point.