Should we publish in minority languages, of which nearly all of the speakers can speak the dominant language?

Yes
48% (16 votes)
No
39% (13 votes)
Unsure
12% (4 votes)
Total votes: 33

Posted By

Devrim
Mar 30 2006 10:08

Tags

Share

Attached files

Comments

Devrim
Mar 31 2006 19:32

I have a Turkish keyboard, and use it with a Turkish version of windows. It has separate letters for ç,ş,ö,ü,ğ,ı and İ. I also know that people who have bought laptops abroad (basically as they are much cheaper) can install a programme to change it from English function to Turkish, even though the keys don't correspond to the letters. It is a bit difficult for me to use as I type slowly, and still have to look at the letters sad . Maybe this is possible for Esperanto too.

I don't have any problem with Esperanto. What I was originally discussing when I started this thread was whether using minority languages is a concession to nationalism. Esperanto obviously isn't.

Whether it is useful for the workers movement, or not is a different issue. It is in no way against it though. Even if it is just a hobby, and in my opinion quite an interesting one allowing people to contact those in other countries, it is not a bad thing, probably better than some of my hobbies like going to watch Ankaragücü, which has absolutely no connection to the class struggle. Football is the new opiate of the masses. At least there is a possibility that Esperanto might be useful.

Dev

jef costello
Mar 31 2006 20:57

You were close Devrim, I live in Tottenham, I spotted a form of devrim in the name of a party and assumed it was worker rather than revolutionary.

Quote:
Oliver Cromwell who ordered the burning down of the Welsh language library at Raglan Castle in the 17th century, an act many put in the same league as the destruction of the Library in Alexandria, Egypt.

Now that is a fucking crime, as anyone who reads my posts will know destroying books will make me very angry. I also can read two dead languages and speak two living languages so I'm hardly a bigot. I despise Henry VIII for the destruction of thousands of Anglo-Saxon Manuscripts when he dissolved the monasteries and the horrendous attitude of the French who destroyed mediaeval manuscripts in the 18th/19th centuries because they were not "proper" French.

Quote:
Ah but he had, page 1 I'll think you find

my bad Bodach, but it seems odd that you added him and not any of the other posters.

Serge, don't worry I don't think anyone's coming out of this thread looking good, (except perhaps Devrim)

Quote:
Citation:

What version of Gaelic is taught in schools?

Which fucking dialect, or did they standardise it (removing the elements of culture by homogenisation) as a nationalistic response to English.

What's your point caller?

The one that I made perhaps? Is the diversity and culture being preserved or is it a reactionary attack on English inspired by nationalism.

Quote:
Well don't expect me to agree with you, and Gaelic isn't dead, although a lot of people may like it to be.

I don't give a flying fuck about it, I find it odd that you support state efforts to revive it in a bastardised form. If communities wish to maintain their language and culture then that is great, if some bunch of cocks decide that Irish has to be maintained, define it, then force it down people's throats then I am not happy with that.

Quote:
And stop comparing Gaelic speakers to racists, or is that racism?

I think nationalists are racists, I was referring to what I see as nationalistic desires, rather than ordinary people. I love languages, I like the sound of gaelic, I think that nationalistic attempts to force people to use it are unacceptable. If I knew a gaelic speaker I'd love to hear some of it.

Quote:
Citation:

So, given that the death of these languages is all tied up with capitalism, why the fuck do anarchists want to help this process along?

Citation:

Capitalism also builds hospitals, does that mean that they are bad too?

Yeah but it also kills millions of people, is that a bad thing?

My example showed that yours was ridiculous, why would you reinforce that with another example?

Quote:
Why, cause we object to having something we've spent a lot of time and energy on, out of purely humanitarian, cultural motives, disparaged cause it's not English?

Not in the slightest, because this thread has been derailed into a shite fest. The translations were criticised as a waste of time because they will reach a tiny amount of people, a huge percentage of whom could have read an English leaflet. It wasn;t criticised because it was not English, it was criticised because it seemd rather pointless, you haven't defended it on those grounds, apart from asserting that Welsh/Gaelic speakers would ignore English leaflets as they were in English.

Odd that despite your protestations about culture you haven't answered my questions about the elimination of dialects from modern day Gaelic and the homogenisation of the language, considering that you've been banging on about culture. Almost as if you have a desire to see the language survive in any form simply for nationalistic anti-English purposes rather than to actually preserve anything within the language.

Rugger person, Americans should be very careful talking about Ireland, largely because its a very good way to look like a twat. The relentless idiotic support for the IRA and other forms of Irish nationalism drives many people insane. Especially non-nationalistic Irish people

Quote:
now i'm a liberal postmodernist wanker.

Newyawker, I think you're a little harsh there, you're not a liberal smile

ASCII is a way of expressing letters using binary code (which is the language that computers use.) If I remember rightly standard ASCII supports 256 characters, which is why some languages require special add-ons to languages.

Accents are not that necessary, it would seem a good idea to leave them out unless they are applied consistently and simplify the language.

Devrim, its easy to use a foreign computer you just need to get a new keyboard and install a patch. They are often included, for example with English versions of MS word you can get French and Spanish dictionaries and spell checkers if you look at the options. It is a bitch to type accented characters online though.

phoebe
Mar 31 2006 21:16
Devrim wrote:
I have a Turkish keyboard, and use it with a Turkish version of windows. It has separate letters for ç,ş,ö,ü,ğ,ı and İ.

Sure. Just none of those are used in Esperanto. Esperanto uses characters not used in any other natural (as opposed to constructed) language. In this aspect, it might as well be klingon, but more people speak klingon (I believe).

That is to say, Esperanto has been pointlessly complicated in a way that follows no known language for absolutely no reason (pragmatic, aesthetic or otherwise).

One of the cool things that Ido does is get rid of the extra (pointless) letters.

What's the difference between gh and jh again? And why is there a difference in a "totally phonetic language" when most languages don't distinguish between the sounds comprising gh and jh? Even with only 100 Ido speakers (I'm pretty sure at a cursory search of the net I've found more than that) it still makes sense to switch to it when only 2M people speak esperanto.

revolutionrugger
Mar 31 2006 21:17
Jef Costello wrote:

Rugger person, Americans should be very careful talking about Ireland, largely because its a very good way to look like a twat. The relentless idiotic support for the IRA and other forms of Irish nationalism drives many people insane. Especially non-nationalistic Irish people

I hardly think any of my posts were some sort of ringing ignorant american endorsement of irish nationalism. In fact I seem to remember asking people to state their opinion about minority languages in an american context, namely first world people. So don't use some kneejerk tactic about american ignorance to avoid the point I made. Namely that diversity in language is important. Because individual language contain concepts worth preserving. Frankly, I don't have an opinion on the Irish question, my course of action in the past, when asked about it, is to say, "I agree with what ever Andrew Flood says."

phoebe
Mar 31 2006 21:30
Jef Costello wrote:
ASCII is a way of expressing letters using binary code (which is the language that computers use.) If I remember rightly standard ASCII supports 256 characters, which is why some languages require special add-ons to languages.

Accents are not that necessary, it would seem a good idea to leave them out unless they are applied consistently and simplify the language.

ASCII's on it's way out. on the other hand I can't imagine keyboards being extended to cover the ridiculous number of possible characters in unicode (utf-8 or utf16).

And given that Esperanto is supposed to be a universal auxiliary language, I can't see any value in Esperanto-only keyboards (as the point of Esperanto is that you use it when you and another Esperantist don't have a different common language, not that you push it as a universal primary language).

The "accents" in esperanto are absolutely necessary. They aren't technically "accents", but create genuine new characters. c^=ch, gh=j, jh=zh. I'm not entirely sure what's up with u~. This is sorta similar to Hungarian where if you look in a Magyarul dictionary you'll find "cs" has a different section from "c", "sz" has a different section from "s" etc.

Bodach gun bhrigh
Mar 31 2006 21:44
Jef Costello wrote:
Quote:
Ah but he had, page 1 I'll think you find
Quote:
my bad Bodach, but it seems odd that you added him and not any of the other posters.

Except for Jack and John. the other two bigots

Quote:
Citation:

What version of Gaelic is taught in schools?

Which fucking dialect, or did they standardise it (removing the elements of culture by homogenisation) as a nationalistic response to English.

What's your point caller?

Quote:
The one that I made perhaps? Is the diversity and culture being preserved or is it a reactionary attack on English inspired by nationalism.

I fail to see how preserving an indigenous language is attacking English

Quote:
Well don't expect me to agree with you, and Gaelic isn't dead, although a lot of people may like it to be.
Quote:
I don't give a flying fuck about it,

There you go again

Quote:
I find it odd that you support state efforts to revive it in a bastardised form. If communities wish to maintain their language and culture then that is great, if some bunch of cocks decide that Irish has to be maintained, define it, then force it down people's throats then I am not happy with that.

I don't think it's bastardised, that would denigrate the efforts of many Gaelic teachers to keep the language alive in the face of official indifference. It's a shame I know that the state is the organisation largely responsible for keeping Gaelic alive, but it's the least they could do, considering the previous century of marginalisation. Gaelic education in Scotland is entirely optional, and therefore not being forced down people's throats.

Quote:
And stop comparing Gaelic speakers to racists, or is that racism?
Quote:
I think nationalists are racists, I was referring to what I see as nationalistic desires, rather than ordinary people. I love languages, I like the sound of gaelic, I think that nationalistic attempts to force people to use it are unacceptable. If I knew a gaelic speaker I'd love to hear some of it.

I think speaking your community language is not nationalist, and I don't think anyone is being forced to speak it, at least not in Scotland. I don't see how preserving a culture that has been around for thousands of years against every form of brutality is racist. You seem to have the wrong end of the stick, the attempts to wipe out Gaelic in the last 500 years were certainly racist, the attempts to revive it, or at least ameliorate its decline, are attempts to save aspects of a culture that otherwise would be wiped off the face of the earth, to the detriment of everyone's humanity. And I could speak some to you, assuming there was an available medium.

Quote:
Citation:

So, given that the death of these languages is all tied up with capitalism, why the fuck do anarchists want to help this process along?

Citation:

Capitalism also builds hospitals, does that mean that they are bad too?

Yeah but it also kills millions of people, is that a bad thing?

Quote:
My example showed that yours was ridiculous, why would you reinforce that with another example?

To show that your example was equally ridiculous, saving people's lives in a hospital is not the same as eradicating a culture, which is what is going on.

Quote:
Why, cause we object to having something we've spent a lot of time and energy on, out of purely humanitarian, cultural motives, disparaged cause it's not English?
Quote:
Not in the slightest, because this thread has been derailed into a shite fest. The translations were criticised as a waste of time because they will reach a tiny amount of people, a huge percentage of whom could have read an English leaflet. It wasn;t criticised because it was not English, it was criticised because it seemd rather pointless, you haven't defended it on those grounds, apart from asserting that Welsh/Gaelic speakers would ignore English leaflets as they were in English.

I would suggest you haven't read John's initial comment, or Jack's comment about children being taken away from their parents because they were being raised with another language. I didn't say they would ignore it, I said they'd prefer the effort that someone has put in to speak to them in their own language.

Quote:
Odd that despite your protestations about culture you haven't answered my questions about the elimination of dialects from modern day Gaelic and the homogenisation of the language, considering that you've been banging on about culture. Almost as if you have a desire to see the language survive in any form simply for nationalistic anti-English purposes rather than to actually preserve anything within the language.

I would like it to survive, and it is a tragedy that these dialects are being eroded, but again, you argue from the point of view that it should be consigned to history, rather than that it should survive, almost as if you've got an anti-Gaelic, pro-English agenda. I would like it to survive in the form it had at the beginning of the 1900's, but that ain't gonna happen, so we may as well work with what we've got, considering the enmity that Gaelic has faced, and which has been reproduced here, it's a miracle anyone is raised with it at all.

Bodach gun bhrigh
Mar 31 2006 21:59
revol68 wrote:
aye thats fair enough, but the simple matter is that most of the clowns that are defending gaelic never grew up with it as their 1st language and instead embraced later on in order to make a political point or to get back in touch with some ancient identity/ stroke national culture.

Or get in touch with a living part of their local culture? Gaelic isn't ancient or national, it's a living part of my culture, but one that isn't necessarily connected with Scottish Nationalism. I speak it because I want to, and because I want to speak to Gaels, and find out about their culture, same reasons as with any other language.

Quote:
My point being that if we are going to do that then why don't we start a campaign to bring back Old English or Cornish?

Cause Gaelic isn't dead. And it's only reached it's present precarious position in the last hundred years or so. Before that in Scotland at least its position was fairly stable, most people in the Highlands spoke Gaelic. I don't want everyone to speak it, as I've said before, I'd just like more people to speak it.

jack white
Mar 31 2006 23:00

Usually I try to stay away from threads like this - politically they're worthless and people just get wound up.

In real life, for example, I know that revol68 is a nice guy whose a good comrade and whose heart is in the right place. I'm sure Jack and John are the same but on threads like this they just come across like reactionary fuckers.

I mean the central question got answered ages ago - the AF translated material into certain languages because they were able to at little or no effort. If they could translate their propaganda into every language under the sun they would. They would also prioritise languages which were the most relevant to the most possible people.

.....

More impoprtantly JDMF, I was chatting up a Finnish woman in the pub tonight and mentioned that I heard Finns had no word for please* - she said that this was true but that they used a conditional tense to get the meaning across. i.e. instead of saying 'can I have the fucking salt' they say 'would you give me the salt'. I must say my illusions of a totally ignorant / rude functioning language** were ruined!

*No, its not a great way to try and score anyone - I went home alone.

**I thought it could be like a language developed on libcom.

People would only say things like:

'can i have the fucking salt?'

'No you cock, fuck off!'

'Yeah, why don't you totally misrepresent what I said just so you can try and take the upper hand in a fucking internet debate'

'You kilt wearing fucking sheep shagger'

'Activist!'

As the language spreads these type of exchanges would continue untill it reaches the point where the whole world becomes a really functional "resource for all people who wish to fight to improve their lives, their communities and their working conditions"

(edited lots cos my spelling is terrible)

phoebe
Mar 31 2006 23:42

I once made the mistake of saying something in Irish to an Irish person. Whoops. I lived and learned. Thank fuck for that.

georgestapleton
Apr 1 2006 00:11
Devrim wrote:
I have a Turkish keyboard, and use it with a Turkish version of windows. It has separate letters for ç,ş,ö,ü,ğ,ı and İ.

I know 3 of my flatmates are turkish and a few weeks ago my computer broke and I had to use there's I was typing at a speed of maybe 5 words a minute. angry The ı is where the i should be. Its so bloody irritating. Actually does anyone know

Quote:
I also know that people who have bought laptops abroad (basically as they are much cheaper) can install a programme to change it from English function to Turkish, even though the keys don't correspond to the letters

Does anyone know how to do this For some reason loads of the symbols on my computer are in the wrong place. Maybe I should create a thread in culture.

-------------

revol68 wrote:
revolutionrugger wrote:

I hardly think any of my posts were some sort of ringing ignorant american endorsement of irish nationalism. In fact I seem to remember asking people to state their opinion about minority languages in an american context, namely first world people. So don't use some kneejerk tactic about american ignorance to avoid the point I made. Namely that diversity in language is important. Because individual language contain concepts worth preserving. Frankly, I don't have an opinion on the Irish question, my course of action in the past, when asked about it, is to say, "I agree with what ever Andrew Flood says."

ah so you do support the IRA! wink tongue

te he he he

tongue

--------

phoebe wrote:
I once made the mistake of saying something in Irish to an Irish person. Whoops. I lived and learned. Thank fuck for that.

Yeah there's an urban legend about some japanese bloke who developed an infatuation with Ireland. Spent ages saving up to go on holiday to Ireland, bought himself Irish language tapes. Learnt Irish then came over here and wasn't able to talk to anyone cos he spoke Irish not english. As I said I'm sure its an urban legend, but it's still funny.

---------

Finally I'd like to distance my self from 'alyn gruffydd's posts. They're almost as silly as Jacks. Although to be fair I used to have similar ideas before boul, JoeBlack and Terry (only posts in Ireland forum) knocked some sense into me. To be fair I was young and that was years ago when I was an anarcho-novice. I know almost everyone on this forum had silly politics at one stage or another. I was an anarcho-republican. embarrassed

Steven.
Apr 1 2006 00:11
Bodach gun bhrigh wrote:
Except for Jack and John. the other two bigots

roll eyes

georgestapleton
Apr 1 2006 00:12
georgestapleton wrote:
I was an anarcho-republican. embarrassed

Were? confused

(Just to save revol the effort wink )

Steven.
Apr 1 2006 00:18
georgestapleton wrote:
georgestapleton wrote:
I was an anarcho-republican. embarrassed

Were? confused

(Just to save revol the effort wink )

Well you were just saying you were part of an Irish national culture, which you wanted to defend - from people outside the national culture, presumably. neutral

jack white
Apr 1 2006 00:26

do you think that there could be a japanese national culture John?

Steven.
Apr 1 2006 00:32
jack white wrote:
do you think that there could be a japanese national culture John?

No. What does that even mean anyway?

I'm sure there's some Japanese revol68 telling a japanese Alan that hardcore's shit and emo is great, and hating each other, despite their shared "blood and soil"

jack white
Apr 1 2006 00:35

John said: "No. What does that even mean anyway? "

Really? You don't think that japanese people have a shared cultural identity formed from, amongst other things, a common language, history, music, cuisine, set of experiences or values?

Do you think they don't share any of these things or do you think that these things don't add up to a cultural identity?

Steven.
Apr 1 2006 00:38
jack white wrote:
John siad: "No. What does that even mean anyway? "

Really? You don't think that japanese people have a shared cultural identity formed from, amongst other things, a shared language, history, music, cuisine, set of experiences or values?

Do you think they don't share any of these thngs or do you think taht these things don't add up to a cultural identity?

No. Nationality, is bollocks. I could move there. I could become a citizen, their culture would be nothing to do with me.

I think that because you're in a former colonised country, you can say shit like that and sound progressive, whereas here you'd just sound like a fascist. They're the only people here who ever talk about protecting british/english culture. In fact they're like the only ones who ever talk about a british or english culture, cos there isn't one.

jack white
Apr 1 2006 00:49
Quote:
No. Nationality, is bollocks. I could move there. I could become a citizen, their culture would be nothing to do with me.

I think that because you're in a former colonised country, you can say shit like that and sound progressive, whereas here you'd just sound like a fascist. They're the only people here who ever talk about protecting british/english culture. In fact they're like the only ones who ever talk about a british or english culture, cos there isn't one.

No to what? No they don't have these shared cultural experiences or No these things don't add up to a national identity?

I don't think believing that national identities exist has anything to do with being nationalist. And its got nothing to do with being a former colony / colonised country. Poles have a common shared identity, the Irish have a common identity (which not everyone in Ireland shares) and yes the English have a common shared identity. A cultural identity is nothing more than a group of people self identifying as having a common characteristic.

I mean you don't doubt that there's a punk cullture do you? A culture that punks share? So why not a Japanese cullture? You do believe that Japanese people exist don't you? I mean if someone calls themselves Japanese are you going to tell them that they're wrong?

Steven.
Apr 1 2006 00:53
jack white wrote:
I don't think believing that national identities exist has anything to do with being nationalist. And its got nothing to do with being a former colony / colonised country. Poles have a common shared identity, the Irish have a common identity (which not everyone in Ireland shares) and yes the English have a common shared identity. A cultural identity is nothing more than a group of people self identifying as having a common characteristic.

Er, or a common passport?

I've got fuck all culture to "defend" in common with the 100,000 convicted paedos in the UK, or with thousands of rapists/fascists what have you. I've got much more on common with some asylum seeker from Iran or something if he's a decent human being.

Quote:
I mean you don't doubt that there's a punk cullture do you? A culture that punks share? So why not a Japanese cullture? You do believe that Japanese people exist don't you? I mean if someone calls themselves Japanese are you going to tell them that they're wrong?

Self named subculture... nation state... yeah same thing really.

Oh. My. God.

jack white
Apr 1 2006 00:54

But I think all cultures contain: " a shared sphere of cultural reference and conflict, ... a multitude of cultures all expanding and contracting" The national identity, what these groups share can be seen as the lowest common denominator.

It doesn't mean that these groups are totally homogenous. Nobody is arguing that a shared national identity is the most important thing in peoples lives. In fact people here would all argue that class is more important than national identity. But I think that saying national identities don't exist is trying to force your reality to fit you political perspective.

jack white
Apr 1 2006 00:59

John said:"Self named subculture... nation state"

Why does national identity have to equal nation state?

I'm from a medium sized town in Ireland. There are lots of things I don't have in common with other people from that medium sized town.

Which doesn't mean that there aren't lots of things I have in common with other people from that medium sized town.

Self named subculture = punk

self named national culture = irish, polish, basque, japanese etc etc

Steven.
Apr 1 2006 01:00
jack white wrote:
But I think all cultures contain: " a shared sphere of cultural reference and conflict, ... a multitude of cultures all expanding and contracting" The national identity, what these groups share can be seen as the lowest common denominator.

It doesn't mean that these groups are totally homogenous. Nobody is arguing that a shared national identity is the most important thing in peoples lives. In fact people here would all argue that class is more important than national identity. But I think that saying national identities don't exist is trying to force your reality to fit you political perspective.

What identity do immigrants have? Or mixed race people? Is it in their blood, or their soil? Are they part of the native culture where they grew up? Or where they've settled? Or where their parents are from?

(This is surreal, like talking to some Valhalla type or something. I really cannot believe an anarchist could say this stuff. Is this a WSM line?)

jack white
Apr 1 2006 01:01

Revol68 said: "no I really think national identities don't exist, in fact I think national identities were a very real case of forcing reality to fit your political perspective or have you forgotten that the japanese, irish and any other national identity only took form around the 18th century."

If they don't exist how did they 'take form'? (I'm not saying they were eternal btw)

jack white
Apr 1 2006 01:06

John said:"What identity do immigrants have? Or mixed race people? Is it in their blood, or their soil? Are they part of the native culture where they grew up? Or where they've settled? Or where their parents are from?

(This is surreal, like talking to some Valhalla type or something. I really cannot believe an anarchist could say this stuff. Is this a WSM line?)"

I think that national identities are self identified (mostly). If a kid in Dublin born of immigrant parents feels that he's Irish then I guess he is. Are going to tell him that he isn't?

Likewise I guess that kid could decide / feel that he's nigerian / indian / Chinese etc.

If it was a WSM line we'd have a position paper on it. (tongue )

Really your language is pretty insulting by the way. Likening me a Valhalla type hardy brings the debate forward does it?

georgestapleton
Apr 1 2006 01:07
revol68 wrote:
of course they nevr did take full form and are ravaged with fissures and contradictions.

But to be ravaged with fissures and contradictions they'd have to exist.

And no this isn't a WSM line.

jack white
Apr 1 2006 01:10

George said: "But to be ravaged with fissures and contradictions they'd have to exist. "

Exactly. Basically what I'm saying is that if people belive that they have a common national identity then they do.

Anarchists shouldn't argue that national identity doesn't exist, since this flies in the face of reality. Its like saying that religious or any cultural identy doesn't exist. Instead we say that national identity isn't very important from a political point of view and that class is the shared experience that counts the most.

jack white
Apr 1 2006 01:22

Revol68 said"Cos national identity has real discursive power and stems from and is nurtured by certain real social relations (albeit one sided distorted ones), means that a critique of nationalism doesn't merely mean saying it's a myth but rather strenghtening those tendencies that show beyond it and can leave it in the dustbin of history alongside the divine right of Kings."

Well that makes much more sense to me. I guess i was arguing with John's earlier statement.

Mind you I don't think that national identity has to equal nationalism. national identity includes things like cuisine, music etc. Now irish cuisine is shit / mostly non existant (thats what happens when you go through centuries of being a pesant society with no real native bourgois / ruling class) but I quite like some trad music, irish myths, some poetry and literature and sports. (And yes the period of the irish 'cultural revival' was largely driven by nationalism - doesn't mean all its products were / are tainted though)

jack white
Apr 1 2006 01:23

Revol said: "And personally i don't feel like I have a national identity as do alot of people in the north, to us national identity is just a shroud that masks real conflict and commonality."

Again that makes sense - like i said earlier i think national identity is tied up with self identification.

Steven.
Apr 1 2006 01:33
jack white wrote:
I think that national identities are self identified (mostly). If a kid in Dublin born of immigrant parents feels that he's Irish then I guess he is. Are going to tell him that he isn't?

If he's got an Irish passport, no.

If he says he's an anarchist, and yet has a precious national culture in his blood then yes I'll say he's talking shit, as I would an English person who wants to protect his "national culture" from outsiders.

Quote:
Really your language is pretty insulting by the way. Likening me a Valhalla type hardy brings the debate forward does it?

Sorry, but I've been repeatedly called a bigot, and quite possibly a racist. And in all seriousness the only people I've heard this kind of stuff from are nutty valhalla or BNP types.

georgestapleton
Apr 1 2006 01:33
revol68 wrote:

well of course they exist as discourses. My point being that they exist as much as nation states do, in that they are reflect a certain reality, a reality that is incomplete and mystified.

rather like commodity fetishism.

Cos national identity has real discursive power and stems from and is nurtured by certain real social relations (albeit one sided distorted ones), means that a critique of nationalism doesn't merely mean saying it's a myth but rather strenghtening those tendencies that show beyond it and can leave it in the dustbin of history alongside the divine right of Kings.

Today the inadequacies of national identity are being concretely torn asunder and that is something we should be celebrating and seeking to deepen. Anything that attempts to recompose itself around a national identity is therefore reactionary.

Infact i would say national identity is the muck of the ages. And personally i don't feel like I have a national identity as do alot of people in the north, to us national identity is just a shroud that masks real conflict and commonality.

Yeah honestly, I completely agree with all of this.

Except I'm not sure what you are saying here: 'Anything that attempts to recompose itself around a national identity is therefore reactionary.'

If you are saying any political movment 'that attempts to recompose itself around a national identity is therefore reactionary.' I completely agree. If you are saying the GAA or Conradh na Gaeilge or Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann is reactionary. I'd disagree.