Should we publish in minority languages, of which nearly all of the speakers can speak the dominant language?

Yes
48% (16 votes)
No
39% (13 votes)
Unsure
12% (4 votes)
Total votes: 33

Posted By

Devrim
Mar 30 2006 10:08

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jack white
Apr 1 2006 01:36

Revol 68 said:"but you see the whole idea that they are irish culture is bollox, ireland never existed at the time of the book of kells (im sure i'm not spelling that right), there were seperate kingdoms and indentity was tied up with clan. The music that is seen as traditional irish was itself a product of many cultures. By reducing these complex, interdependent cultures to a national identity you are helping to mystify real social relations."

But like I said earlier i think that national identities are the lowest common demoninator of all these different experiences. When the book of kells was written (you spelled it right by the way) there were lots of different kingdoms, but there was a common language (with different dialects), a 'high kingship' and some other common stuff.

And there's nothing special about Ireland. I mean you can speak of European culture and a shared heritage without pretending that Europe is some homogenous zone or that massive differences don't exist.

(edited to make it clear what I'm responding to)

georgestapleton
Apr 1 2006 01:41
revol68 wrote:
but you see the whole idea that they are irish culture is bollox, ireland never existed at the time of the book of kells (im sure i'm not spelling that right), there were seperate kingdoms and indentity was tied up with clan. The music that is seen as traditional irish was itself a product of many cultures. By reducing these complex, interdependent cultures to a national identity you are helping to mystify real social relations.

Hmm I see your point. However I don't think you are completely right that I am helping to mystify real social relations. Believe me I've alienated enough friends and lost enough friends because I took them up on their nationalism while arguing for class politics.

I think its possible to talk about 'irish' music without setting back the communist movement. Or at least not setting it back to much. wink

jack white
Apr 1 2006 01:42

John said: "If he's got an Irish passport, no."

So he's irish if he has a passport? But not if he considers himself irish?

John said: "If he says he's an anarchist, and yet has a precious national culture in his blood then yes I'll say he's talking shit, as I would an English person who wants to protect his "national culture" from outsiders. "

Right, I think I said that national identity is tied up with self identification. Did i mention blood? Revol doesn't consider himself irish, did i tell him that he is because of his bloodline? the belief that national cultures exist isn't the same as saying that they need or should be protected from outside influences. And I haven't said anything like this anyway.

Steven.
Apr 1 2006 01:43
jack white wrote:
Right, I think I said that national identity is tied up with self identification. Did i mention blood? Revol doesn't consider himself irish, did i tell him that he is because of his bloodline? the belief that national cultures exist isn't tha same as saying that they need or should be protected for outside influences. And I haven't said anything like this anyway.

Right sorry I'm conflating your view with georgestapleton's then. Sorry I'll try not to, cos that's what people were doing with me + Jack.

georgestapleton
Apr 1 2006 01:45
revol68 wrote:
yeah, i would say irish music is shite

Okay now you've just gone to far

angry angry angry

georgestapleton
Apr 1 2006 01:47
John. wrote:
jack white wrote:
Right, I think I said that national identity is tied up with self identification. Did i mention blood? Revol doesn't consider himself irish, did i tell him that he is because of his bloodline? the belief that national cultures exist isn't tha same as saying that they need or should be protected for outside influences. And I haven't said anything like this anyway.

Right sorry I'm conflating your view with georgestapleton's then. Sorry I'll try not to, cos that's what people were doing with me + Jack.

Well I agree with jack white. I never said anything about blood or protecting national cultures from outside influences either.

Maybe he's just more articulate than me. sad

Steven.
Apr 1 2006 01:53
georgestapleton wrote:
Well I agree with jack white. I never said anything about blood or protecting national cultures from outside influences either.

You did say this:

Quote:
I don't give a shit if you 'don't give a fuck' if irish culture lives or dies. But I do care if irish culture lives or dies.

And got quite aggressive about it.

Doesn't that imply then that you wish to protect your nation's culture?

How can you protect a national culture, say, with mass immigration taking place?

jack white
Apr 1 2006 02:00

I'm off to bed now but I thought I'd just respond qucikly to this.

Revol 68 said:"I mean why is it that he would pick one incidental part of his culture to define himself by?"

Well I consider myself Irish. I don't think its very incidential - a lot of major things in my life were affected by this - from the way i was raised to the way I conduct relationships to the way I deal with friends passing away. Its not the only, or even the most important aspect that affected those things. And its not the only or even most important way i define myself.

jack white
Apr 1 2006 02:02

(fairly incoherent point)

georgestapleton
Apr 1 2006 02:08
John. wrote:
georgestapleton wrote:
Well I agree with jack white. I never said anything about blood or protecting national cultures from outside influences either.

You did say this:

Quote:
I don't give a shit if you 'don't give a fuck' if irish culture lives or dies. But I do care if irish culture lives or dies.

And got quite aggressive about it.

Doesn't that imply then that you wish to protect your nation's culture?

How can you protect a national culture, say, with mass immigration taking place?

Well that post was in the context of people saying that they looked forward to the day that the Irish language died. (Perhaps I was guilty of conflating what you and Jack were saying, so sorry if I was.)

And I'd say that I want a healthy living culture not that I want to protect it from something. I also wouldn't tie nationality down to those living in a specific territory. I'd use it as a very loose term. The best male irish dancer I know is from manchester. The pogues are part of Irish culture despite being form london. Luke Kelly and the Dubliners are part of Irish culture despite half their songs being Ewan McColl songs. One of the most common Irish music instruments nowadays is the bazouki, which is a greek instrument first used to play irich music by andy irvine in the 1970s.

I don't think anyone has a problem with this. And I certainly don't.

alyn gruffydd
Apr 1 2006 05:07
revolutionrugger wrote:
I attempted to learn Irish a couple years ago, and failed miserably (again, i'm in the states) but one word I thought was really cool, because it had a combined meaning english didn't have a word for: geiso- it means madman and poet at the same time. Isn't that cool, it is a fundamentally different worldview, perhaps one we want.

There are similarly a host of words that exist in the Welsh vocabulary but are not directly translateable, hirwaeth for example, it means a sort of longing for "home" nostalgia, the Irish sing about it all the time given the scale of their diaspora and their history I`d better my bottom international currency unit there is a similar word in Irish. Or "hwyl" what you see when the Welsh play well on the rugby field, there`s some "patriotism" not nationalism in the meaning, but also beauty. Say that in English in one word. The Irish word quoted is probably a linguistic reference to "Bards"

There is a revival of Cornish, there is also where I live in South of France a very active radical movement around Occitan, Provencal, Langue D`oc a family of languages spoken from Catalonia into Piedmont and Liguria. In Piedmont where I visit, they speak Italian in the town, Piedmontese in the village in the valley, and Occitan in the farms and hamlets on the hills. Last I was there I had a short but edifying conversation with the old woman in the farm in a sort of bastardised version of Provencal, (just for the record it was about exactly this subject, how can we manage to communicate with each other, we left it talking about the role of Mandarin in the future... )

Why were my posts silly? Or reactionary?

Devrim
Apr 1 2006 12:14

Jef said that he didn’t think that anyone had come out of this thread looking good except perhaps me 8) . Well, there is still time to change that. It is time to get a bit theoretical.

The whole idea of the nation state is an artificial construct that dates in its modern form from the period of the French revolution. Before that states were to a certain extent merely fiefdoms of specific rulers. We could argue that the nation state has a history, which stretches back further, but it doesn’t invalidate my point. That doesn’t meant that nation states are not real things of course they are. The idea of a national culture is one of the things that was used as a propaganda tool in the struggle to create these states. When people ask whether a Japanese, or an Irish culture/identity exists, the answer is that of course it does. It is, however, a false community. Human’s crave community. This is normal. We are social animals after all. One of the things that capital does very successfully is to create ‘false’ communities as a substitute for real human ones. These false communities are based on submerging the interests of those involved into a common interest that is not really there. The feelings of belonging that they give to humans are important. I do feel good when my football team, Ankaragücu wins a match. I know that it is irrational, yet I still do. Communism is a movement to go beyond that, and to create a real human community.

What this community will be like is at the moment an unanswerable question. We can talk about what it won’t be like in some very basic ways (e.g. it won’t be based on turning people into commodities), but to speculate on the culture that it will create itself is just idle (though possibly enjoyable)speculation. The SPGB do it very well if anyone is interested. The sort of culture that a world human community ,born through intense struggle will create, is beyond our imaginations just as modern capitalist culture would have been unimaginable to 18th century French peasants. I have no idea whether one language will achieve dominance be it Mandarin, English, or even Esperanto, or whether there will be a massive revival of moribund languages each celebrated for its diversity, and what it adds to the world human culture. Anyway, let’s leave the theory, and the SPGB meeting, and get back to the real world.

Today national identity is completely tied to nationalism. Let’s just quote the worst of the comments posted on this thread:

Quote:
hwyl" what you see when the Welsh play well on the rugby field, there`s some "patriotism" not nationalism in the meaning, but also beauty.

The TKP in Turkey at the moment has a thing going called the Patriotic Front (Yurtsever Cephe), and it is completely a nationalist front. What is the difference between ‘patriotism’, and ‘nationalism’? What do you imagine the content of communism to be, a reversion to Europe as a continent of a thousand flags with autonomy for all of these different ‘ethnic’ groups each patriotic, and glorifying in their own diversity. It sounds very close to ‘Third Positionism’ to me. The Turkish nationalists (which includes a large section of the left) are always talking about defending Turkish culture, but what exactly is it? Capitalism has do a certain extent homogenized world culture. This has happened. It is to a certain extent an inevitable process. When I hear the leftists complaining that American cultural imperialism is destroying Turkish culture, I want to vomit all over their Levi’s. When I walk past the statues of Mustapha Kemel with the slogan ‘How happy I am to be a Turk’ on the plinth, I feel frightened. Whilst not supporting the dominant bourgeoisie’s assimilation campaigns, I don’t want to be drawn into supporting the ‘oppressed’ bourgeoisie’s defense of national culture.

Of course people from these communities feel sad when their languages are dying. They are losing a real sense of community, however partial it is. Of course it is sad when great-grandparents can’t communicate with their great-grandchildren (I know one old Kurdish woman who can barely speak Turkish who can’t communicate with her great-granddaughter, who is a Londoner who barely speaks Turkish). It doesn’t mean that we should join in the defense of national culture though.

Finally to just reply to a few points:

Alyn (shouldn’t that be Alun if you are so Welsh) wink , As far as I understand ’hwyl’ means fun, quite a simple word, but not one that I would usually associate with the performance of the Welsh national rugby team : It also has the meaning of goodbye. Maybe this was the association you were looking for as in when they are playing in a world cup match. Every language has words that are not directly translatable. Most European languages (not including English) have one word for ‘foreigner’, and ‘stranger’. It comes from a pre-capitalist backward feudal village mentality. Not one I would want to emulate, or think is particularly beautiful.

George, I have no problem on my keyboard, though I understand that ı, and i can be a problem when writing in English if you are not used to it, especially having to use one of them for the capital I, and the other for the little i. If your computer breaks down again, and you have to use theirs, I would advise typing into WordPerfect, and letting the automatic spell check do the corrections. My problem is typing on an English keyboard which has Turkish soft wear on it.

Jef, Have I blown it now? tongue

o maeliosa
Apr 1 2006 13:41

To be honest i dont see what the issue is as the pamphlets were also written in English. If people of the group want to publish them on both English and Gaelic whats the issue I could see it being a problem if it was only written in gaelic.

Bodach gun bhrigh
Apr 1 2006 14:25

To labour a point even more, I don't see how any language is necessarily nationalist. In any language you can have and express thoughts of any kind, nationalist thoughts, internationalist thoughts, racist thoughts, anti-racist thoughts. Gaels are not by nature any more nationalist or racist than anyone else, and probably even less so, as far as my contact with them goes in Scotland anyway. So I don't get the point of people labelling minority languages as nationalist when they haven't had any contact with them, or read anything in those languages, or investigated the history. Sorley MacLean, ( Somhairle MacGill-Eain) the most famous Gaelic poet of the 20th century, was a socialist, purposely joined up in the second world war to fight Nazis, and wrote a poem about the Spanish Civil War from the side of the republicans. Alasdair Caimbeul has written explicitly anti-nationalist short stories, the idea that minority languages are intrinsically racist or nationalist, or that people learn them for these reasons, is short-sighted at best.

Bodach gun bhrigh
Apr 1 2006 14:26

Oh and Aonghas Caimbeul (Angus Campbell) in his autobiography included an internationalist critique of the second world war, one for the ICC I feel.

Devrim
Apr 1 2006 15:09

Bodach,

I didn’t label either languages or people as reactionary or racist. What I stated was that language revival movements tend to have links to nationalism. You argued on an earlier post that Scots Gaelic has no connection with Scottish nationalism. I am not well enough informed about it to comment. What is quite certain is that it is generally true. The Irish language movement is intrinsically linked with the ideology of both the Irish State, and Republicanism, so to is the Welsh language movement, and the Kurdish language movement here. People who grow up speaking these languages do not do it because they are nationalists, but people who make a conscious decision to learn them in latter life often do. I am not saying that this is always the case. I learnt a little Kurdish because I heard it around me, and also because when I go to the South East, it makes my holiday more pleasant if I can communicate with people if even on a very basic level.

The Platformist group here, AKİ (Anarşist Komünist İnisiyatif ), has just published the latest issue of their magazine, and it is full of pro Kurdish nationalist articles. The English group class war seems to me to be pro Irish republicanism. I feel that it is a very short road from defending people’s cultural identity to giving open critical support to nationalism. Actually I have just looked at their website http://www.anarsistkomunizm.org/AKi/portal , and found an article on last weeks Kurdish New Year celebrations entitled ‘Newroz Piroz Be!’, which is Kurdish for ’long live the Kurdish New Year’ following this are pictures of the anarchists, and the Kurdish nationalists on the demonstration. I couldn’t find one of the Anarchist flags flying together with the PKK flags, but there is no criticism on nationalism there. I think that it is a slippery slope.

Bodach gun bhrigh
Apr 1 2006 16:32

It's true enough that support for minority languages can be found among nationalists, but the link isn't neccessarily absolute. I think that in most minority communities there is a diversity of political opinion, just as in majority communities, and this can be reflected amongst those who chose to learn them, for sure I've met a few gaelic learner arseholes, but I've also met a lot of decent people. With regard to Welsh, there are bands such as Datblygu, who sing anti-Welsh songs through the medium of Welsh. In any community there will be diversity of opinion, and Nationalism seems to be so prelevant wherever you go, that this will be reflected in any community, whether this is minority or majority. I must say though, that Nationalism seems less prominent amongst the Gaels I've met than among the Lowland Scots, though that may be just because I haven't had many long political discussions with them. Although the seminar where I was asked questions about anarchism for an hour by other students through the medium of Gaelic was good fun, they seemed really receptive and not hostile in any way. I haven't got any objections to anything you've said on this thread Devrim, I was just objecting to other posters posting up ideas that you come across regularly in Scotland, that Gaelic is a waste of time and money. Gaelic doesn't neccessarily deserve to survive more than any other language, but, conversely, why should any language be deleted from history? I reckon learning Gaelic has made me less nationalist, not more, because once you start dealing with real people, who are supposedly guardians of Scottish national identity, then you realise they are anything but. It has been largely the fault of the Scots that Gaelic has been marginalised, along with Lowland scots (the language, not the people) so why would I support a nation that has basically persecuted itself out of existence? Real Gaels aren't nationalist, they're just Gaels, just like French people aren't neccessarily nationalist, or internationalist. I think learning a language goes deeper than political allegiance, because once you're part of a different culture, you can express any political opinion you want through the medium of that language. It also reflects political allegiance at a basic level, you want to communicate with more people, rather than remain isolationist, and Gaelic gets such a thrashing up here from every two-penny bigot with a newspaper column, that you are siding with the underdog, and the oppressed class.

jef costello
Apr 2 2006 00:43

Alyn, do you speak Occitan?

I can read it but not brilliantly.

Bodach, your dissection of my post was absolute shite, I'll pull it to pieces in the morning if I can be bothered. You seem like a nationalist to me.

George stapleton/Alyn you guys seem more interesting although I think you are both lining up on the wrong side here.

Alyn, you are aware that Old Provencal, as a term, was connected to a nationalistic movement. One of the reasons that it was surpassed by Occitan as a term (the other being the fact that it was wrong)

I love these dialects, I'm probably going to learn italian because of Occitan. Then spanish then catalan.

Assuming some idiot will pay me for it at some point.

Can vei la lauzeta mover

de ses alas contr'al rai

alyn gruffydd
Apr 2 2006 12:46
Jef Costello wrote:
Alyn, do you speak Occitan?

George stapleton/Alyn you guys seem more interesting although I think you are both lining up on the wrong side here.

Alyn, you are aware that Old Provencal, as a term, was connected to a nationalistic movement. One of the reasons that it was surpassed by Occitan as a term (the other being the fact that it was wrong)

I love these dialects, I'm probably going to learn italian because of Occitan. Then spanish then catalan.

No I don't speak Occitan, yet, internal debate as to whether to learn, Occitan, Welsh or Italian.

Reply to someone, my official papers name is Alun, sometime I call myself Alyn, it's a bit like the Irish do, choose their anglicised name or retain their Irish name, Alun is more South Walian than North Walian, which tends to be Alyn, I like using alyn cos at least people know how to pronounce it which they don't with alun. (It's exactly the same wink

Aline exists in French but is a girls name. Despite all the laughter and confusion this causes I oblige a correct prononciation in France and why shouldn't I? Would you change yopur name to make it easier for "strangers" to pronounce it, or agree with tghe French Revolutionairies who pronounced on an official list of firts names that could be used? or is my approach even more bigoted nationalism.

Ca m'étonnerait

"We just want the right to be different, that's all" Jarvis Cocker, Common People

Thanks for compliment but I don't think I'm on any side, just exploring ideas... and it's better to really know languages in detal before commenting on them, have never heard anyone use hywl to say good bye in Welsh.

Could we move on to a discussion of the Triades soon wink?

is more interesting and I'm feeling philosophical

jef costello
Apr 2 2006 14:17

I'd go for Italian if I were you, opens you up to the maximum number of people and sources.

Occitan is lovely though, once you get into the swing of it.

If you can read French well its not hard to get into the swing of it.

Bodach gun bhrigh
Apr 2 2006 14:20
Jef Costello wrote:

Bodach, your dissection of my post was absolute shite, I'll pull it to pieces in the morning if I can be bothered. You seem like a nationalist to me.

Go for it, ya radge!

Devrim
Apr 2 2006 15:09

Alyn,

'Hwyl Fawr'. I believe that that means goodbye in welsh. I would hope that we could use it to say goodbye to all of these reactionary nationalistic ideas on this thread, but I doubt that we can. There is nothing wrong with speaking these languages, but when you start to talk about 'patriotism' I start to worry.

Actually, I did change my name, or the name I use, to make it easier for people to understand. My attachment to that culture wasn't quite as high as my irritation with constantly being asked 'what?', 'sorry?', or 'can you say that again?' in goverment offices. I prefer something simple that people can recognise.

Quote:
Reply to someone, my official papers name is Alun, sometime I call myself Alyn, it's a bit like the Irish do,

Yeah, reply to 'someone'. The name I use on this forum isn't my real name. Devrim means revolution in Turkish, and although it is a popular name it isn't mine. If I were to go along with some of the posters on this thread. I would now scream something like 'racist' or 'bigot'. You can't even bother to remember a 'dirty' foreign name.

That's ok with me. I don't care at all. I did notice that all of these so-called 'English bigots' managed to get it right though.

Actually I was brought up with one of the minority languages that has been spoken about on this thread. It has nothing to do with my political activity, and I don't care to use it often. I do still use it with members of my family occasionally. Perhaps you colud try throwing nationalist insults at me until you realise which one I understand.

Devrim

jef costello
Apr 2 2006 16:08
Bodach gun bhrigh wrote:
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Citation:

What version of Gaelic is taught in schools?

Which fucking dialect, or did they standardise it (removing the elements of culture by homogenisation) as a nationalistic response to English.

What's your point caller?

Quote:
The one that I made perhaps? Is the diversity and culture being preserved or is it a reactionary attack on English inspired by nationalism.

I fail to see how preserving an indigenous language is attacking English

So you've still failed to answer my original question. I think that trying to erect a "gaelic" edifice as a response to English is reactionary and nationalistic. There is a difference between preserving a language and forcing people to learn it.

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Well don't expect me to agree with you, and Gaelic isn't dead, although a lot of people may like it to be.
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I don't give a flying fuck about it,

There you go again

You said people may like it to be dead. I said I didn't care. Not giving a shit about something that is irrelevant to me personally is not the same as attacking it. Why do you paint yourself as a victim?

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I find it odd that you support state efforts to revive it in a bastardised form. If communities wish to maintain their language and culture then that is great, if some bunch of cocks decide that Irish has to be maintained, define it, then force it down people's throats then I am not happy with that.

I don't think it's bastardised, that would denigrate the efforts of many Gaelic teachers to keep the language alive in the face of official indifference. It's a shame I know that the state is the organisation largely responsible for keeping Gaelic alive, but it's the least they could do, considering the previous century of marginalisation. Gaelic education in Scotland is entirely optional, and therefore not being forced down people's throats.

Finally an actual response using some logic! Interesting to hear.

Quote:
I think speaking your community language is not nationalist, and I don't think anyone is being forced to speak it, at least not in Scotland. I don't see how preserving a culture that has been around for thousands of years against every form of brutality is racist. You seem to have the wrong end of the stick, the attempts to wipe out Gaelic in the last 500 years were certainly racist, the attempts to revive it, or at least ameliorate its decline, are attempts to save aspects of a culture that otherwise would be wiped off the face of the earth, to the detriment of everyone's humanity.

I think speaking a community language is not necessarily nationalistic. We're at crossed purposes here I think. I see no problem with attempts to preserve it, I do not agree with attempting to revive it as a first language, I do not think that this is possible or worthwhile.

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So, given that the death of these languages is all tied up with capitalism, why the fuck do anarchists want to help this process along?

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Capitalism also builds hospitals, does that mean that they are bad too?

Yeah but it also kills millions of people, is that a bad thing?

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My example showed that yours was ridiculous, why would you reinforce that with another example?

To show that your example was equally ridiculous, saving people's lives in a hospital is not the same as eradicating a culture, which is what is going on.

Argh!

You said that capitalism wanted to destroy the languages, I was trying to make the point that that's an irrelevant argument. Just because capitalism does something does not make it bad.

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I didn't say they would ignore it, I said they'd prefer the effort that someone has put in to speak to them in their own language.

Reread your post. I still think that this post has been derailed, Jack's language

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I would like it to survive, and it is a tragedy that these dialects are being eroded, but again, you argue from the point of view that it should be consigned to history, rather than that it should survive, almost as if you've got an anti-Gaelic, pro-English agenda. I would like it to survive in the form it had at the beginning of the 1900's, but that ain't gonna happen, so we may as well work with what we've got, considering the enmity that Gaelic has faced, and which has been reproduced here, it's a miracle anyone is raised with it at all.

I think it has effectively been consigned to history, and you aren't too far off that opinion yourself it would seem. I think it is worth preserving languages and dialects, dead or alive.

Why assume that I have that attitude?

Incidentally, although I think Jack can be unnecessarily dismissive of dead languages I think that He, John. and Revol all criticised the translations on practical grounds, at least initially.

Quote:
"next friday" doesn't mean the next friday - obviously?!?! - but next weeks friday.

Unless they said "Friday next" JDMF. That would mean Friday next week.

And that's me done.

Bodach gun bhrigh
Apr 2 2006 17:48
Jef Costello wrote:
Bodach gun bhrigh wrote:
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Citation:

What version of Gaelic is taught in schools?

Which fucking dialect, or did they standardise it (removing the elements of culture by homogenisation) as a nationalistic response to English.

What's your point caller?

Quote:
The one that I made perhaps? Is the diversity and culture being preserved or is it a reactionary attack on English inspired by nationalism.

I fail to see how preserving an indigenous language is attacking English

Quote:
So you've still failed to answer my original question. I think that trying to erect a "gaelic" edifice as a response to English is reactionary and nationalistic. There is a difference between preserving a language and forcing people to learn it.

It's not trying to erect a Gaelic edifice, it's trying to restore Gaelic to areas which have recently lost it. No-one is being forced to learn it, as I've said before, unless you count kids being placed in Gaelic-medium education as forcing them to learn it, in that case, why have education at all?

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Well don't expect me to agree with you, and Gaelic isn't dead, although a lot of people may like it to be.
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I don't give a flying fuck about it,

There you go again

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You said people may like it to be dead. I said I didn't care. Not giving a shit about something that is irrelevant to me personally is not the same as attacking it. Why do you paint yourself as a victim?

Why are you even posting on this thread if it's irrelevant to you personally? It's not irrelevant to me, which is why I've objected to a lot of the opinions on this thread.

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I find it odd that you support state efforts to revive it in a bastardised form. If communities wish to maintain their language and culture then that is great, if some bunch of cocks decide that Irish has to be maintained, define it, then force it down people's throats then I am not happy with that.

I don't think it's bastardised, that would denigrate the efforts of many Gaelic teachers to keep the language alive in the face of official indifference. It's a shame I know that the state is the organisation largely responsible for keeping Gaelic alive, but it's the least they could do, considering the previous century of marginalisation. Gaelic education in Scotland is entirely optional, and therefore not being forced down people's throats.

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Finally an actual response using some logic! Interesting to hear.

All my responses have used logic.

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I think speaking your community language is not nationalist, and I don't think anyone is being forced to speak it, at least not in Scotland. I don't see how preserving a culture that has been around for thousands of years against every form of brutality is racist. You seem to have the wrong end of the stick, the attempts to wipe out Gaelic in the last 500 years were certainly racist, the attempts to revive it, or at least ameliorate its decline, are attempts to save aspects of a culture that otherwise would be wiped off the face of the earth, to the detriment of everyone's humanity.
Quote:
I think speaking a community language is not necessarily nationalistic. We're at crossed purposes here I think. I see no problem with attempts to preserve it, I do not agree with attempting to revive it as a first language, I do not think that this is possible or worthwhile.

It is worthwhile, I've learned oodles about my culture and history through learning Gaelic, whether it's possible is up to the people that speak it.

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So, given that the death of these languages is all tied up with capitalism, why the fuck do anarchists want to help this process along?

Quote:
Citation:

Capitalism also builds hospitals, does that mean that they are bad too?

Yeah but it also kills millions of people, is that a bad thing?

Quote:
My example showed that yours was ridiculous, why would you reinforce that with another example?

To show that your example was equally ridiculous, saving people's lives in a hospital is not the same as eradicating a culture, which is what is going on.

Quote:
Argh!

You said that capitalism wanted to destroy the languages, I was trying to make the point that that's an irrelevant argument. Just because capitalism does something does not make it bad.

But that's because of your intitial value judgment, you've repeatedly said you don't care, and therefore you don't see it as a bad thing. A native Gaelic speaker who can't communicate with the younger generation of his community in the language he was raised in, which is therefore the language closest to his thoughts and feelings, would see it as a bad thing. As do I.

Quote:
I didn't say they would ignore it, I said they'd prefer the effort that someone has put in to speak to them in their own language.
Quote:
Reread your post.

Which one?

Quote:
I would like it to survive, and it is a tragedy that these dialects are being eroded, but again, you argue from the point of view that it should be consigned to history, rather than that it should survive, almost as if you've got an anti-Gaelic, pro-English agenda. I would like it to survive in the form it had at the beginning of the 1900's, but that ain't gonna happen, so we may as well work with what we've got, considering the enmity that Gaelic has faced, and which has been reproduced here, it's a miracle anyone is raised with it at all.
Quote:
I think it has effectively been consigned to history, and you aren't too far off that opinion yourself it would seem. I think it is worth preserving languages and dialects, dead or alive.

Why assume that I have that attitude?

Well 50,000 people may beg to differ, and your attitude in your first post wasn't as liberal as your later ones.

Quote:
Incidentally, although I think Jack can be unnecessarily dismissive of dead languages I think that He, John. and Revol all criticised the translations on practical grounds, at least initially.

Re-read their first posts, bigoted swill, I think you'll find.

jef costello
Apr 2 2006 21:02
jef costello wrote:
ps I hate most of you for this stupid thread, no one has come out of this smelling of roses except those with the brains to ignore it.

I said this in my first post and I stand by it.

Please don't call me a liberal, and I don't think my later posts are much different. I was very pissed off by the fact that this arse of a thread exists, Devrim asked a reasonable question and instead we have this useless crapfest.

I have learnt nothing, except that, according to you, no one is obliged to learn gaelic in Scotland. I wash my hands of this thread.

alyn gruffydd
Apr 2 2006 21:15

I, `m sorry Devrim if you are offended it was n`t intended believe me, lack of time earlier today skimmed posts wanted to make some replies didn`t check through to see who had said what, wouldn`t happen in real life shouldn`t happen here.

On the other hand don`t know what we are getting so worked up about, I choose my approach to my name, you yours... for many many years in UK I let it go, and then I thought no fuck it, it`s my name there are a lot of us around, they should make the effort, not only that (but many weren`t to know this, it was chosen to rime with my middle name (perhaps some revelation of Welsh and celtic cultural importance of poetry here, wink ) so for me, who was the important person in this story, when I heard my name pronounced properly it gave me immense pleasure even as far as explaining this to people, (with another story of course, we`re full of stories.)

Now I live in rationalist, republican France with a surname Griffiths, anyone who knows Latin language speakers knows this is impossible to hear or pronounce for them, what shall I do, change my name to Dupont? to make my life easier wink

As for the use of the word patriot this illustrates the problem beautifully, I was trying to explain a celtic/welsh linguistic concept using an alien language to that concept, it is perhaps understandably so being misinterpreted, it doesn`t mean patriot in a crude nationalist sense, it means it in the sense of a love of the aesthetics of a culture and history which is manifested in peoples living in a set of geographical localities now, + various diaspora.

I can understand your criticism but it is based on lack of knowledge of the history and philosophical thought, thought which goes back 000`s of years, before christianity, islamic, greek, and certainly roman thinking.

Understanding what the Scottish and Irish people on this discussion are saying isn`t so hard for us, we`re just asking you to try and understand us as we grapple our way towards explaining points of view.

On Gaelic, and so called community languages, we have a slightly different take on that in wales, because our history and development. Welsh is the mother tongue of around 25% of the population, i.e. the language they learn before school, this so called community is majority in many areas, if they want to put out documents only in welsh what is the problem? I`m not going to stop welsh speakers in the street and tell them to switch to english so I can eaves drop am I?Welsh is obligatory in schools, it is an administratively bilingual nation, with a high proportion of mother tongue speakers and loads of bilinguals. That`s the track we are going down, part of our cultural development, Scotland and Ireland and Brittany will probably never catch up, but the Basques and Galicians are with us so that`s ok. At the same time I`ll support writers like Irvine Welsh and others in the new scottish writing schools who are writing in (often working class) New Scottish. In the same way as I like Wenglish spoken a lot in South Wales, all part of our cultural development. No one`s imposing that on anybody. Enjoy if it you like, if not hywl fawr as Devrim says.

Of course there will be welsh speaking groups singing "against" welshness, and Wales. Look at what is happening to the idea, as it is being sucked into marketing often around sport, but in other sectors as well. ideological Imperialism. We have a too, too long history of being colonised to let that one through unnoticed. (Or not to be sung about) wink

Nos Dda

alyn gruffydd
Apr 2 2006 21:22

oh yes

PaulMarsh
Apr 2 2006 22:33
alyn gruffydd wrote:
IWelsh is the mother tongue of around 25% of the population, i.e. the language they learn before school,

/quote]

Can you provide any proof for this claim?

Bodach gun bhrigh
Apr 2 2006 22:42
Jef Costello wrote:
jef costello wrote:
ps I hate most of you for this stupid thread, no one has come out of this smelling of roses except those with the brains to ignore it.

I said this in my first post and I stand by it.

Please don't call me a liberal, and I don't think my later posts are much different. I was very pissed off by the fact that this arse of a thread exists, Devrim asked a reasonable question and instead we have this useless crapfest.

I have learnt nothing, except that, according to you, no one is obliged to learn gaelic in Scotland. I wash my hands of this thread.

What an arrogant blowhard, so people object to having part of their lives slagged off by people who know nothing about minority languages and you seem to feel you're the referee? Bigots are people who dismiss other cultures or religions while knowing nothing about those cultures or religions, and thus fits a lot of people on this thread accurately. I don't know why you seem to feel you have to defend the indefensible Jef, but you've come out of this thread looking insufferably pompous.

As have I, I suppose. grin

alyn gruffydd
Apr 3 2006 08:12
PaulMarsh wrote:
alyn gruffydd wrote:
IWelsh is the mother tongue of around 25% of the population, i.e. the language they learn before school,

/quote]

Can you provide any proof for this claim?

No of course not Paul, like the rest of us on this thread I`m just talking out of my a*se and conjuring up statistics and so called facts to support my narrow bigoted beliefs wink

actually, Yes you can download a map here, a bit out of date, 1991 census and I did slightly oversestimate I admit, but it still shows nearly 40% language speakers in rural wales which drops to just under 10% in the urban south. (my origins are in the urban south) giving an average of just under 20%. The proportion of people who are able to understand welsh and converse whilst having english as another language is of course higher.

http://www.wales.gov.uk/keypubstatisticsforwales/content/publication/compendia/2001/sb49-2001/sb49-2001-m1-1.pdf

WikiPedia gives the 2001 breakdown showing a slight increase in people who can use Welsh which they put down to the compulsory teaching (<16) in schools.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_Language

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Welsh_principal_areas_by_percentage_Welsh_language

Breton nationalist? I`m not even sure I would qualify myself as a Welsh Nationalist. To much mirth from revol68 I`ve talked about a pan celtic federation, I`d still maintain support for that open, forward looking movement, whilst understanding this dividing line between an open advocacy of "minority " cultures and development and crass nationalism which other contributors have talked so eloquently about. So likewise would support the development of Breton culture including it`s language and dialects. Take a trip to the Interceltic Festival in Lorient this August, you`ld find it fun. This support is particularly as the Breton culture and people were historically subjected to heavy nationalistic and Jacobin conservatism in the past which nearly led to the death of the language in the last century.

We`re trying to have a progressive discussion Revol68, I`ll ignore your other misunderstandings and over simplified rants if you don`t mind.

(Or you can meet me outside later, I`m the one with the shiny (red of course) Docs, and very short (red of course) hair with red (of course)dragons tattoed on my forehead. You can`t miss me. Oh and I`ll probably be singing in an unintelligible language close to gibberish. wink Whilst trying to pick the stray green bits of laverbread out of my poorly maintained teeth. (Watch out for the halitosis attack, deadly!)