Should we publish in minority languages, of which nearly all of the speakers can speak the dominant language?

Yes
48% (16 votes)
No
39% (13 votes)
Unsure
12% (4 votes)
Total votes: 33

Posted By

Devrim
Mar 30 2006 10:08

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magnifico
Apr 4 2006 10:23
Devrim wrote:
Alan, and Magnifico,

What are communities? It is a word that anarchists use a lot, but what does it actually mean? What is our attitude to ‘the cultural assimilation that is rampant under capitalism’? Do you think that the role of revolutionaries is to fight against cultural assimilation?

No, I just think that if propaganda is to be successful it needs to speak to people in a way that is familiar and comfortable for them. We've had long discussions on this website about the kind of language we should put in our leaflets etc, people are pretty much agreed that it shouldn't sound like it's written by some postmodernist (wink) university academic because this will put people off, but that it shouldn't be too 'dumbed down' as this is patronising. If the area where you live is one where a living minority language like Welsh or Kurdish is spoken then the language issue becomes part of this same debate, IMO.

I'm not the least bit interested in fighting cultural assimilation (or in third positionist fascism, thanks for that) and I don't give a shit if any language 'dies out' but I am interested in communicating our ideas to people effectively. I've been to places in Wales that are not backward, closed-minded little villages but where people going about their everyday lives speak to each other in Welsh. It seems a bit strange, contrived and 'more anti-nationalist than thou' to argue that we should address them in English when their first language is clearly Welsh, and I think it would seem strange to them too.

Would you argue that an anarchist in Quebec should publish only in English despite the fact that everyone speaks French as their first language? Or that anarchists in Switzerland should publish only in German regardless of what part of Switzerland they are in? What's the difference?

the button
Apr 4 2006 10:29

When I hear people going on (and on, and on, and on) about community organising, my thoughts often turn in the same direction as revol's.

There is a danger in invoking "community," in harking back to a "golden age" of working class community. The same golden age as when lodging houses had signs in the windows saying, "No blacks, no dogs, no Irish."

magnifico
Apr 4 2006 10:35

Yeah I agree revol I'm not talking about northern ireland where everyone speaks english as a first language but some people are learning irish purely for nationalistic reasons. I'm talking about 'real' languages that some people still genuinely speak, for example welsh. Like i said, it just seems polite to speak to someone in their first language - why does everyone think that it is so nationalist confused

the button
Apr 4 2006 10:40
revol68 wrote:
when i talk about struggle in the community, i don't mean that we organise the "community" but rather through the struggle a community is produced, and the false community becomes ruptured.

Have you read Jean-Luc Nancy's The inoperative community, revol? I think you'd like it.....

http://www.upress.umn.edu/Books/N/nancy_inoperative.html

MalFunction
Apr 4 2006 11:38

in the news today

not sure how relevant it is but i found it "interesting" (if a little oblique):

Quote:
Al-Jazeera to air TV series about multiracial Welsh sheep family

David Ward

Tuesday April 4, 2006

The Guardian

The Baaas (or properly Y Meees), a Welsh-language programme about an extended family of musical multi-racial sheep, is to be aired on Al-Jazeera, a channel more usually associated in the Valleys and beyond with grim news from the Middle East.

The 52 episodes, broadcast in Britain on S4C, tell of Costas, a latter-day Greek Womble of a sheep who makes good use of the things that he finds. He is married to Baalwen, a black Welsh mountain sheep, and the couple live in Acropolis Cottage with their daughter, Meegan, and her twins, Jaason and Meedea, together with Meegan's partner, Meelvyn: three generations from different ethnic backgrounds living together.

The two series will be shown in Arabic on Al-Jazeera's Children's Channel, seen in countries including Egypt, Lebanon, Libya, Israel, Saudi Arabia and Sudan. Not to mention Iraq.

The programme is said to give viewers, whether in Bangor or Baghdad, a taste of a wide range of musical styles, from opera to rap "while also placing a strong emphasis on the importance of recycling and family interaction".

"The Baaas are colourful, entertaining and ultimately fun and we're delighted they'll be reaching new audiences in the Middle East thanks to this deal with Al- Jazeera," said Anna-Lisa Jenaer, head of children's programmes at S4C International.

"The important thing is that the programme is about how we get on with each other and although there is some bickering in the Baaas' household, they always work things out in the end," said the show's producer Nia Ceidiog when the series was announced.

Al-Jazeera has also bought Sali Mali, another of the Welsh language channel's popular pre-school children's programmes.

Sali Mali is based on the books by Mary Vaughan Jones and illustrated by Jac Jones in the 1960s and 1970s. The cartoon's heroine learns about the world around her with the help of her pet bird, Jac-do, her good friend, Jac y Jwc, and other characters.

Ms Jenaer added: "The adventures of Sali Mali have delighted generations of Welsh youngsters, whether in book, cartoon or live action format.

"This sale to Al-Jazeera is further proof of this delightful and engaging character's enduring appeal."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1746267,00.html

Bodach gun bhrigh
Apr 4 2006 12:46
revol68 wrote:
Local culture is pathetic, petty and ignorant, a pile of self obessed triumphialism and victimisation that nestles easy in areas where the only contact with the other takes place through violence or in the sterilised temporal world of work.

the Nazi's didn't say much interesting but whatever cunt it was who said "when I hear the word culture, I reach for my gun", was onto something.

Misanthropist! Stop generalising from your experience of Northern Ireland to other communities. And it doesn't surprise me to find you quoting Nazis.

Serge Forward
Apr 4 2006 12:52
revol68 wrote:
the Nazi's didn't say much interesting but whatever cunt it was who said "when I hear the word culture, I reach for my gun", was onto something.

It was Hermann Goering, yer closet nazi bleeder wink

Joseph Kay
Apr 4 2006 12:59
Bodach gun bhrigh wrote:
it doesn't surprise me to find you quoting Nazis

Thats dangerously close to Godwin's Law.

you lose wink

edit: link not working confused

Serge Forward
Apr 4 2006 13:04

To paraphrase Maggie Thatcher, there is no 'community'.

At least, there is nothing that makes any sense in an anarcho-comunist context. That's because any notion of community is part and parcel of one facet or 'sub-culture' of capitalist society. So, part of our job as libertarians is the creation of a working class 'community of resistance'. This is all about helping to bring together any forms of resistance that are happening within the class, building solidarity between them and the creation of something new and vibrant. The creation of a 'culture of resistance' is directly related to this, whether it be via song, literature, social events, anarcho-holidays, art, Libcom, or whatever.

Course, it's all a bit of a big job creating this community/culture of resistance. I think I'll just go down the pub.

Devrim
Apr 4 2006 13:38

Magnifico,

I don’t have much to argue with with your points. They seem quite reasonable to me. I am not suggesting that people only publish in German in Switzerland, or don’t publish in French in Quebec. What I am doing is suggesting that we be aware of how publishing in these languages is a political decision, not just a practical one like how much a leaflet costs to print. I am suggesting that it is something that maybe we should think about. I think I have explained why I believe that we shouldn’t publish in Turkish in that it will not give us access to more people, and could link us to Kurdish nationalism. I made the first post after a discussion we had in a bar about languages for publication. I have since talked about it with Kurds (but not Kurdish speakers) who agree with me.

At the moment there is massive unrest in the South East. 15 people have been killed on demonstrations in the last week. I think that it would be very worthwhile (although probably very dangerous) to put out a leaflet in Kurdish criticizing both the state, and the Kurdish nationalists. That said we are in Ankara, and the distance between Ankara, and Diyarbakır, or Batman is similar to the distance between London, and Milan.

Serge,

I realise what situation the AF put those things up in, and I also realize that it wasn’t a political decision. I said so in an earlier post. I can’t be bothered to look back, and find it as this thread is so long, but it is there somewhere. Maybe it should have been though.

As for the council workers strike, I didn’t say that it was the most significant strike. I don’t think it was, but that it was the biggest strike, 1,000,000 workers, in that period. Of course the winter of discontent, and the miners strike for example were much more significant.

You say it was in the last issue of ‘Resistance’. I have just looked at it, and there was half a column on page two. Maybe it was important enough to do a leaflet for, and to distribute it as widely as possible on picket lines. I also noticed there was a small bit about Mehmet Tarhan. What I would say about it is that it was mainly reporting news, and seemed to lack political perspective. Contrast it with the ICC’s leaflet http://en.internationalism.org/node/1735 , and however much you disagree with their politics, it does have a political perspective.

By the way, I don’t mind you giving away all of these virtual cigars, but remember that next time I am in the U.K., which probably won’t be for a year or two (you have time to save up for a quality one), you promised me a real one.

In solidarity,

Devrim

alyn gruffydd
Apr 6 2006 05:03
MalFunction wrote:
in the news today

not sure how relevant it is but i found it "interesting" (if a little oblique):

Quote:
Al-Jazeera to air TV series about multiracial Welsh sheep family

David Ward

Tuesday April 4, 2006

The Guardian

The Baaas (or properly Y Meees), a Welsh-language programme about an extended family of musical multi-racial sheep, is to be aired on Al-Jazeera, a channel more usually associated in the Valleys and beyond with grim news from the Middle East.

The 52 episodes, broadcast in Britain on S4C, tell of Costas, a latter-day Greek Womble of a sheep who makes good use of the things that he finds. He is married to Baalwen, a black Welsh mountain sheep, and the couple live in Acropolis Cottage with their daughter, Meegan, and her twins, Jaason and Meedea, together with Meegan's partner, Meelvyn: three generations from different ethnic backgrounds living together.

Not all all oblique, Lovely as they say in the valleys, (needs singing when you say it, )and on top of that modern day fables based on celtic history (relationships between Celts and Greece) looks like quality TV myself.

and I`ll look forward to seeing it on aljazeera english channel.

All i got served up as a kid was Muffin the Mule, and later on Blue Peter

alyn gruffydd
Apr 6 2006 05:07
Serge Forward wrote:
alyn gruffydd wrote:
Wait on, I said Yiddish weeks ago, bloody anglo centrics, still can`t trust them after all these 000s of years, they`ll never learn...;-)

Alternatively, you can have a free 10 minutes of hot XXX full on hardcore online cyber sex with yours truly... in Esperanto of course.

With yours truly and what, or who?

a Welsh black mountain sheep? or one of those nice greek ones?

alyn gruffydd
Apr 6 2006 05:08
Jack wrote:
Well, at least someone will watch it now.

Jack, tell me when you`re running your next philiosophy course will you?

Serge Forward
Apr 6 2006 08:49
alyn gruffydd wrote:
With yours truly and what, or who?

a Welsh black mountain sheep? or one of those nice greek ones?

Sorry, sheep cost extra.