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would you give few quid for the comms to set up their army?

Yes
64% (9 votes)
No
21% (3 votes)
I am a fence sitter
14% (2 votes)
Total votes: 14

Posted By

JDMF
May 4 2006 13:33

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revolutionrugger
May 5 2006 13:22

You're right. Its not a third world country, but my point stands.

Devrim
May 5 2006 13:40

Revol,

Maybe this is a step forward for anarchism in the State's. After all they are used to supporting all kinds of left nationalists. At least the WCPI are only radical Stalinists, and do have an internationalist position on the war. That is probably difficult enough for some American anarchists to stomach by itself. This could be a move forward. wink

Then again, I think they will be supporting some other leftist nonsense next week.

Dev

petey
May 5 2006 13:45

buncha bigots youse are

petey
May 5 2006 13:55

feeling guilty revvy??

Devrim wrote:
Revol,

Maybe this is a step forward for anarchism in the State's. After all they are used to supporting all kinds of left nationalists. At least the WCPI are only radical Stalinists, and do have an internationalist position on the war. That is probably difficult enough for some American anarchists to stomach by itself. This could be a move forward. wink

Then again, I think they will be supporting some other leftist nonsense next week.

Dev

revolutionrugger
May 5 2006 13:56

its easy to be ultra-left when you're living in a social welfare state. Ever think that our "leftwing" nonsense is a response to material conditions?

Devrim
May 5 2006 14:03

New Yawka,

Do you feel that I have misrepresented the positions of anarchism in the States. I think I am being kind to it. Look at this: http://libcom.org/library/cleanliness-godliness-deodorant-crimethinc

for example. Whenever we have arguments about nationalism, it always seems to be people, who I presume are from NEFAC coming out with the most anti-working class, pro national liberation shite.

RevolutionRugger,

I live in Turkey. I haven't noticed much of a welfare state here.

Devrim

revolutionrugger
May 5 2006 14:06

my apologies, you just SOUND like a stupid Euro.

Devrim
May 5 2006 14:14
Quote:
my apologies, you just SOUND like a stupid Euro.

Which is better than being the sort of liberal leftist, who supports groups like the PKK, who have been know the to 'fight for the working class' by organising campaigns of shooting school teachers.

Devrim

Devrim
May 5 2006 14:20

I didn't say that anybody had supported the PKK. I said groups like the PKK. The Kurdish nationalist movement does get a lot of support from liberal leftists abroad, and I have heard NEFAC people arguing about people's right to national self determination. I wouldn't be surprised if some 'anarchists' supported them.

Dev

butchersapron
May 5 2006 14:34

Yes.

Devrim
May 5 2006 14:36

Is that "yes" you support the PKK?

butchersapron
May 5 2006 14:45

Sorry, yes i will and do support a group that aims to form an armed self-defence organisation based not on 'the resistance' or any of the reactionary components thereof, and that has a perspective of using those to put forward some sort of class based offensive against both the occupation and the resistance and an immediate defecne of w/c communities agianst these nutjobs. It's not perfect, it's near civil war, so it's unlikey to be - but if the sadrists, the fundies, the baathists and the areas under no control aren't to fall and become bases for the above mentioned to get their foot back on the Iraqi working classes neck then this sort of thing has to happen.

The resistance and the US/capital have converging perspectives - they both want the current shit to continue and kock out any possibility of mass w/c resistance to the pair of them - i'll support any sort of militant action that holds the possibilty of this happeninmg together at a future date together without capitulating to either side. I think many of the groups in the 'popular front/civil society' mentioned above are merely front groups for the worker-communists anyway. I'm not sure that they have the sort of roots in the 'establishment' that are needed to make this accurate.

Caiman del Barrio
May 5 2006 15:23

So, to move this discussion forward, what would have to be the content and form of an Iraqi "proletarian army" to receive the backing of those who voted "no"? And how realistic is this content and form?

Personally I'm undecided. I can see that supporting pseudo-Leninists is problematic but I'm reluctant to be an ultra-left pessimist. Plus, I feel that if I was on strike in a country ravaged by conflict and imperialism, I'd accept the defense of nearly anyone. More importantly, wouldn't the non-politico rank and file majority?

I don't really know much about the Iraqi left so these are genuine questions.

JDMF
May 5 2006 15:32

fuck this fence sitting, lets get some guns to the comrades!

edit: this is a joke, a J - O - K - E, joke, like:

Quote:

joke (jōk)

n.

Something said or done to evoke laughter or amusement, especially an amusing story with a punch line.

A mischievous trick; a prank.

An amusing or ludicrous incident or situation.

Informal.

Something not to be taken seriously; a triviality: The accident was no joke.

An object of amusement or laughter; a laughingstock: His loud tie was the joke of the office.

petey
May 5 2006 15:51
Devrim wrote:
New Yawka,

Do you feel that I have misrepresented the positions of anarchism in the States. I think I am being kind to it. Look at this: http://libcom.org/library/cleanliness-godliness-deodorant-crimethinc

for example. Whenever we have arguments about nationalism, it always seems to be people, who I presume are from NEFAC coming out with the most anti-working class, pro national liberation shite.

of NEFAC and crimethink i know nothing. and, yes, it's true, i have had roaring arguments with my pinko friends about castro, ho etc. but NB: they were pink. your basic american anarchist in the street knows left nationalism when s/he sees it.

if you say "positions", fine, there are many, including the one you (and i)decry. but don't assume one characterizing position. if there is one, it would be primitivism, but that's been blasted on these boards by ... er ... i think it was revrug, and he's a yank.

ps - i'm not REALLY pissed off, but it's as useful to assume you have a moustache b/c you're turkish.

Tacks
May 5 2006 15:59
butchersapron wrote:
Sorry, yes i would and will give money towards supporting a group that aims to form an armed self-defence organisation based not on 'the resistance' or any of the reactionary components thereof, and that has a perspective of using those to put forward some sort of class based ....

...including the PKK? not sure who u are referring to.

Margaret Rutherford
May 5 2006 16:04

No I would not consider it a good idea to fund an armed group in Iraq.

And if somebody encouraged me to say I would on the internet I would wonder what their fucking game was.

Lazy Riser
May 5 2006 16:05

Hi

JDMF wrote:
fuck this fence sitting, lets get some guns to the comrades!

Anarchy baby. Yeah! I thought you were against all this "merry freedom" stuff. Have you had a sudden conversion?

I still say it's like betting on a tramp-fight. Not that I object.

Love

LR

OliverTwister
May 5 2006 16:05

RevRugger, let's be clear, some of the leading "platformists" in the US think that the CRA should support Chavez...

Margaret Rutherford
May 5 2006 16:10
butchersapron
May 5 2006 16:25
Tacks wrote:
butchersapron wrote:
Sorry, yes i would and will give money towards supporting a group that aims to form an armed self-defence organisation based not on 'the resistance' or any of the reactionary components thereof, and that has a perspective of using those to put forward some sort of class based ....

...including the PKK? not sure who u are referring to.

No, of course not. They do none of the things i suggested and never have done - in fact were formed and have acted to block that happening.

Steven.
May 5 2006 16:27
OliverTwister wrote:
RevRugger, let's be clear, some of the leading "platformists" in the US think that the CRA should support Chavez...

Oh dear god no - who? I could split this to the north america forum...

OliverTwister
May 5 2006 16:30

Only one of them posts here, and that isn't very often, so I don't know whether I should say when they can't defend themselves...

Steven.
May 5 2006 16:38
OliverTwister wrote:
Only one of them posts here, and that isn't very often, so I don't know whether I should say when they can't defend themselves...

that [name removed cos it wasn't him] dude?

OliverTwister
May 5 2006 16:43

He's not who I'm referencing, though he may hold that position.

Actually despite what he's written about national liberation, I would be extremely surprised if he thought anarchists should support Chavez

Devrim
May 5 2006 17:53

Butcher's apron,

I feel that there has been some confusion here. The PKK(Partiya Karkerên Kurdistan/Kurdish Labour Party) are not an Iraqi group. They do have a presence there (about 5000 armed militants), and do have an Iraqi group that supports them(PAK). I think that before people give support, and give money to people in Iraq, they should at least know what they are talking about. This is not a criticism of you personally, but what I am trying to say is that with all the confusing initials, and acronyms, you should try to make sure who you are giving money to.

Newyawka,

Yes, maybe it was a glib comment about American anarchism. I would like to be proved wrong. I don’t have a mustache.

Devrim

Tacks
May 5 2006 17:59
butchersapron wrote:
Tacks wrote:
butchersapron wrote:
Sorry, yes i would and will give money towards supporting a group that aims to form an armed self-defence organisation based not on 'the resistance' or any of the reactionary components thereof, and that has a perspective of using those to put forward some sort of class based ....

...including the PKK? not sure who u are referring to.

No, of course not. They do none of the things i suggested and never have done - in fact were formed and have acted to block that happening.

yes exactly. But look at your posts:

ba: ''yes''

Devrim: ''Yes what? that you would support the PKK?''

ba: ''Sorry, yes i would and will give money towards supporting a group that aims to form an armed self-defence organisation....

looked a like you were saying yes to the PKK. Didn't think u were, but.

petey
May 5 2006 18:01
Devrim wrote:
I don’t have a mustache.

and i'm not a left nationalist. so, it's a start.

Tacks
May 5 2006 18:04
Devrim wrote:
Butchersapron,

blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

its fairly clear that he wasn't talking about the PKK.

revolutionrugger
May 5 2006 18:09
OliverTwister wrote:
RevRugger, let's be clear, some of the leading "platformists" in the US think that the CRA should support Chavez...

who? pvt. message me, if you don't want to say outloud. Remember i'm out of the loop due to my piraha status. I only get drips and drabs.