This marking up/down crap you still allow for posts...

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Sleeper
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May 6 2016 18:14
This marking up/down crap you still allow for posts...

Hello,

I'm really surprised to see Libcom forums still using this long outdated shite that allows certain individuals in the know to slag off others without having to even present an argument. It's 2016 get rid of it, and do it quickly, it's disgraceful on a site that is asking for new posts and new posters.

Noah Fence's picture
Noah Fence
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May 6 2016 22:37

That's a very fair point mate. Don't expect much improvement though, you'll quite likely ignite that very thing with your post on this thread.

First rule of Libcom - don't criticise the big hitters
Second rule of Libcom - prepare to have a can of whoopass opened on you if you do

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The Pigeon
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May 7 2016 02:21

You've got it the opposite, what we need is to extend it farther. In real life interactions we need to thumbs up and smiley face with things we agree with, and thumbs down and frown grumpy face when we don't. How else will I be able to obsess over phantom feelings of approval and disaprooval?

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Tarwater
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May 7 2016 13:56

I still think that down votes are useful for when someone is being rude or abusive to someone. I don't feel the need to make an entire post about their behavior.

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jef costello
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May 7 2016 06:57

I wasn't in favour of them when they were introduced and I'm not sure if they work particularly well because down votes don't seem to stop bad posting nor encourage good posting (although that would be harder to spot).
I don't know if people take much notice of them, At first I would re-read down-voted posts to see if there was a problem but as you don't know why they were down-voted, nor by whom there doesn't seem much point to it. It is nice to get some up-votes when you have put a lot of effort into a post, it is flawed but at least it shows you people have actually read what you wrote.

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Juan Conatz
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May 7 2016 07:11

I like them. Sometimes I don't have time to read everything, like on break at work, and I'll read stuff that has been upvoted a lot. Plus I like the peer pressure it places on shitposters. I don't like that sometimes people use it because they don't like the poster personally. I also don't like the offtopic posting about a downvote that happens because someone recieved one and they have trouble accepting it.

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Schmoopie
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May 7 2016 07:35

The 'up' / 'down' votes are only seen by private members of libcom.org and not by the general user of the site and therefore are acceptable in my eyes. If one is confident in the comments one makes, receiving an up or down vote makes no odds. However, if one is hoping to be elected, it could be disconcerting.

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Noah Fence
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May 7 2016 07:55
Noah Fence wrote:
That's a very fair point mate. Don't expect much improvement though, you'll quite likely ignite that very thing with your post on this thread.

First rule of Libcom - don't criticise the big hitters
Second rule of Libcom - prepare to have a can of whoopass opened on you if you do

True story: last night before posting this I fell over in the street and bashed my head on the kerb. That is my excuse for this post coz I completely misunderstood the OP. That's the only excuse I've got. Duh.

So, I think the voting system is pretty good. It can be used however you want. Sometimes I'll view upvotes as positive and the same with downvotes, it depends on the topic and who's joining in with the thread. Easy to misenterprate however you use them. If it bothers you when you get downvotes you really need to toughen up a bit, it's just not very important. There a poster I know IRL that hardly ever gets voted down but is really bothered by it when it happens. I don't understand this, I mean, I really couldn't care less but then, we're not all constituted alike.

Sharkfinn
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May 7 2016 09:47
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I wasn't in favour of them when they were introduced and I'm not sure if they work particularly well because down votes don't seem to stop bad posting nor encourage good posting (although that would be harder to spot).

Jeff basically summed it up. What I get from posts by admins on other threads is that down votes were meant as a way of flagging up posts that are against the posting guidelines but fall short of actually needing to be reported. The problem is that there really isn't an agreed upon definition of what this would mean in practice and people aren't using them in the way they are intended.

I do use the voting system, and I tend to get both up votes and down votes for any posts that I think say anything meaningful, but I don't think its necessarily a good system. I have friend who was really upset about the an argument on a thread a while back. When I had a look at the posts I couldn't understand what she was on about until I logged in and saw the votes, how polarized it seemed. I think they make conversations seem more divisive than they are.

Spikymike
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May 7 2016 11:27

I was also one of those most vociferous in my arguments against this function when it was introduced and didn't make use of it at all for ages, but have to admit getting tempted in more recently when confronted with regular, and in my experience on the site, very repetitive stale old arguments I find it hard to summon the energy to respond to endlessly, especially when started by (new?) posters too lazy to do a bit of their own research of the site. I will try to be more patient in future.

Sleeper
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May 7 2016 17:26

You could just ignore and let their argument play out. Or of course you could take the time to explain how these forums work. Or you could press the minus button like a smug twat who thinks they've seen it all before.

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Noah Fence
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May 7 2016 17:53
Noah Fence wrote:
That's a very fair point mate. Don't expect much improvement though, you'll quite likely ignite that very thing with your post on this thread.

First rule of Libcom - don't criticise the big hitters
Second rule of Libcom - prepare to have a can of whoopass opened on you if you do

9 down votes? Oh no, my poor crushed ego. I'll never post anything dumb, irritating, trollsome, or original again. The dissaproval is killing me!

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Auld-bod
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May 7 2016 20:51

Noah, I'm sure all is now forgiven. How is that bump on your head?

Sleeper
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May 8 2016 17:11

See no one can really be arsed to use it anyway. It's a load of shit that was brought in to play by a couple of internet providers in the early 2000's, we're talking 2001/2004, as an experiment some authoritarians thought would solve what they considered the problem of people not agreeing with them.

It makes libcom look old and outdated.

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Noah Fence
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May 8 2016 17:42

I see your point sleeper(apart from the 'outdated' bit - Libcom is the least outdated looking political site out there) but I don't agree. That to one side, what's the big deal? It has to be pretty exceptional circumstances for me to give a fuck. You're right that it does get misused, sometimes for a bit of a laugh and sometimes(I think) because people have a resentment with someone else and will downvote anything that person posts. These guys are just dicks though and I don't reckon we should change a feature jus because a few people are dicks.

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Noah Fence
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May 8 2016 17:46
Auld-bod wrote:
Noah, I'm sure all is now forgiven. How is that bump on your head?

I don't think it was really the knock on the head, it's just coz I'm a dumbass. The head is fine but my leg is sore and my right shoulder and arm are fucked. You know you're old when you fall over and feel unsure as to whether or not you can get up again!

cactus9
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May 8 2016 17:53

Upvotes are kind of interesting because I'm interested to see what other people think although whether that is good or just means groupthink is a difficult question.

Downvotes are basically meant to be like "flagging" a post, right. They are misleading and confusing, I can't remember seeing one actually used it that way.

I don't really understand what downvotes are all about actually. I also don't understand why people get so worked up about them although I probably would if I got a lot.

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Noah Fence
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May 8 2016 18:00
Quote:
I also don't understand why people get so worked up about them although I probably would if I got a lot.

Lol, try swapping places with me for a week or two.

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May 9 2016 13:36

Bourgeois democracy advocates the secret ballot; proletarian democracy favours a show of hands. Perhaps the element of anonymity could be removed from the votes cast here in the manner of Facebook. I don't know if that would be a difficult task to achieve technically.

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Steven.
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May 9 2016 14:52

There have been numerous discussions on this where we have given the libcom view, so we won't be making a formal response to this. However just to say we are working on a major redesign of the site behind-the-scenes, and comment feedback is one of the areas we are thinking about what we should do with it. So if anyone has any concrete suggestions on decent ways of providing both positive feedback, and ways of flagging up bullying, abusive or rude posts but which don't necessarily break the posting guidelines please let us know.

TBH some of this thread does seem a bit like someone being sore they have got lots of down votes, stemming from their dismissive posts about women, people of colour and other discriminated-against groups. Which is one of the reasons we brought it in, so that kind of shows it's been working in one respect at least.

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Auld-bod
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May 9 2016 15:18

Think I may have said this before (but that’s never stopped me in the past).

I vote ‘up’ if I’m 90%+ in agreement with a post; or if an argument is very well put - even if I think it is misguided; or strikes me as very witty.
I vote ‘down’ if someone is fundamentally wrong or being overtly offensive.

Sharkfinn’s post about the point system making things more divisive is a good one, especially as everyone will use different voting criteria. I'm in favour of open voting.

EDIT
Noah hope you feel better soon. I slipped on the stairs about a year ago and manage to drag myself into the recovery position. I stopped there for half an hour. Eventually the cat wanting her breakfast made me shift myself. My insides still feel a bit, 'shake rattle and roll'.

S. Artesian
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May 9 2016 15:51

I love my down votes. Wouldn't trade them from anything. Up votes bore me to tears.

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Noah Fence
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May 9 2016 16:46
S. Artesian wrote:
I love my down votes. Wouldn't trade them from anything. Up votes bore me to tears.

And there, in a nutshell, is the only really sensible of the voting system. I'm occasionally unnerved by an upvote but downvotes are milk and honey to me. Er, vegan honey obviously. Oops, I aside the word vegan - here come the downvotes. Shit, I said vegan again. Hang on, I just said... etc.

Sleeper
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May 9 2016 17:06

Hi Steven it makes libcom look stupid and outdated. Like something from the arse end of the 20th century. If people want to vote about something they will let you know, and it will be to your advantage to allow them to.

Steven. wrote:
There have been numerous discussions on this where we have given the libcom view, so we won't be making a formal response to this. However just to say we are working on a major redesign of the site behind-the-scenes, and comment feedback is one of the areas we are thinking about what we should do with it. So if anyone has any concrete suggestions on decent ways of providing both positive feedback, and ways of flagging up bullying, abusive or rude posts but which don't necessarily break the posting guidelines please let us know.

TBH some of this thread does seem a bit like someone being sore they have got lots of down votes, stemming from their dismissive posts about women, people of colour and other discriminated-against groups. Which is one of the reasons we brought it in, so that kind of shows it's been working in one respect at least.

Fleur
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May 9 2016 17:50

You know what really makes libcom look stupid and outdated? Dismissive posts about women, people of colour and other discriminated-against people.

Sleeper
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May 9 2016 18:02

Perhaps you should read back through what I have said instead of spouting crap you've been told by someone else.

Fleur wrote:
You know what really makes libcom look stupid and outdated? Dismissive posts about women, people of colour and other discriminated-against people.

Fleur
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May 9 2016 18:09

Or perhaps I just remember some of your more memorable posts.

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fingers malone
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May 9 2016 20:31
Sleeper wrote:
Perhaps you should read back through what I have said instead of spouting crap you've been told by someone else.

lol as if the women that post here need to be told by the admins that sexism is bad.

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Noah Fence
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May 9 2016 20:47
Sleeper wrote:
Perhaps you should read back through what I have said instead of spouting crap you've been told by someone else.
Fleur wrote:
You know what really makes libcom look stupid and outdated? Dismissive posts about women, people of colour and other discriminated-against people.

The thing is Sleeper, Fleur is right here. Old fashioned attitudes matter. Internet trends do not. Anyways, late 90s is like yesterday to me! Shoes have been worn for a long time, they work though so I ain't gonna stop wearing them coz their old fashioned. Same with votes. Bad analogy I guess but you get my meaning? I like the feature but take votes with a pinch of salt.

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Steven.
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May 9 2016 21:22
Sleeper wrote:
Perhaps you should read back through what I have said instead of spouting crap you've been told by someone else.

yeah we do remember your posts. Changing your name doesn't make everyone forget. Like Sellafield.

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Chilli Sauce
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May 10 2016 01:24

So, I've been against the up/down system from the get-go - despite using it, admittedly. I think it actually makes flaming more likely as people may feel they have more to prove/defend if they've got a lot of votes one way or the other.

But, as Steven has pointed out, the admins have made their decision on this and I don't think there's much chance of them changing their minds. That said, I really think there's something to think about here:

Quote:
Downvotes are basically meant to be like "flagging" a post, right. They are misleading and confusing, I can't remember seeing one actually used it that way.

Up-votes and down-votes are used to express agreement or disagreement (including disagreement with sexist or oppressive shit). That's the reality of the situation and I don't think we should pretend that down votes are somehow part of a system of self-policing or whatever.

Just on this:

Quote:
proletarian democracy favours a show of hands. Perhaps the element of anonymity could be removed from the votes cast here in the manner of Facebook.

This is come up before and, man, if we think there's beef now, I can't even imagine how nasty things could get if people saw (or at least perceived) a pattern of the same person consistently downing their posts.