NEFAC and IWA-AIT vs. ILS-SIL

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epk
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Feb 10 2007 18:17
NEFAC and IWA-AIT vs. ILS-SIL

Although I have been an Anarchist for a while now, there are in my country (Palestine/Israel) no significant Anarchist organizations, which is why the questions of "who affiliates with what coalition / international organization, and why is it good / bad?" never comes up around here. In fact, I've only very recently become aware of the fact that there seem to be three large (well, relatively) international federations/coalitions of national-level organizations: The IWA-AIT, the ILS-SIL, and the IAF-FAI. The first two seem to at odds with each other, even competing; and their relation to the third one is not clear to me.

Unfortunately, it seems that few Anarchists seem to want to write about these inter-movement and inter-organization relations. Much easier to attack Capitalism and Authoritarian Socialists than to quibble with other Anarchists I guess... anyway, I still feel almost completely in the dark about this subject. Now, I've noticed NEFAC is a member of the ILS-SIL coalition. I was hoping someone could tell me (or direct me to existing writings about) why NEFAC is part of ILS-SIL rather than the other two (especially IWA-AIT), what you (or NEFAC) sees as the difference between the three, and also why you (or NEFAC) thinks there is so much enmity between the first two.

(PS - I don't want to start a flame war, if I said something insensitive or offensive then I apologize in advance)

knightrose
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Feb 10 2007 18:21

For what it's worth, the IFA and IWA seem to have friendly enough relations. I'm in an IFA affiliate. Some IFA members are also in IWA groups - for example, some of the Spanish section are in CNT as well. I'm not sure that ILS really exists any more, neither that it was meant to be an international as such.

Nicolas not Phebus
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Feb 10 2007 18:34

I'm a NEFAC member. We chose to be part of the ILS mainly because its goal is to offer direct solidarity with anarchist groups outside of europe and north america. On our end we have offered the CIPO-RFM (Oaxaca, Mexico) much political and financial support (mainly through speaking tours). You can imagine that we are also part of the ILS because we are very close to Alternative Libertaire and the WSM...

That said, the ILS is more of a concept than an organization, that is, not very functionnal in itself.

We are not part of the IWA because we don't subscribe to "orthodox" anarcho-syndicalism. The IAF? i couldn't really tell you why we didn't join...

To be honest, the question of international affiliations has very little importance within NEFAC. I think we discussed it only once (briefly) at a conference. To my knowledge there are no written documents about this.

rebelworker
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Feb 11 2007 23:28

Id second most of what nic said.

The ILS is not an international, it as varying politics from Somewhat mainstream syndicalism (CGT), to Platformists like NEFAC, WSM, Zabalaza ect, as well asa group like CIPO which is more vaguely anti auhtoritarian (and not very communist at all).

I think we are not part of the IAF because we see it as too synthesist, that is open to varying tendancies within anarchism, some which are tactically if not ideologically at odds with Platformist/especifist type politics.

Having said that, we have not put very much thought into an international, as I dont think its very relevant at this point.

We keep up good international relations with lots of different groups some IAF, some IWA some ILS.

Dumfries
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Feb 12 2007 15:30
rebelworker wrote:
Having said that, we have not put very much thought into an international, as I dont think its very relevant at this point.

Hi D, it's TAT from RevLeft.

Although we've had a little bit of conversation, I'm still no clearer as to why you or NEFAC would take that position?

Building international relations not only engages disparate groups into a wider global movement, giving them confidence and support it offers a coherent, viable international anarchist alternative, which built properly can pose a decisive force in times that call for international solidarity - Or simply in times for mobilisations however small or large they may be.

At a time when governments are reinventing their imperialist agenda, cracking down on dissenting ideas and waging war around the planet I think it's incredibly relevant for class struggle anarchists to unite internationally.

This does not just apply to western countries (which can have a tendency to be quite centric) but to comrades and federations in other more repressive parts of the world who continuously need confidence building, support and solidarity from Internationals.

I'm of the opinion that there is clearly more benefit from being apart of an international than not being apart of one.

What I want to know is, how does the platformist/non-platformist approach and method mean practically for IAF and NEFAC? What is it practically that means unity cannot at least be discussed (in practical terms). Is there a fundamental schism that means practically we cannot unite into an international movement?

At the moment I'm failing to see why there would be? (Perhaps that's my naivety)

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Joseph Kay
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Feb 12 2007 15:57
Eyal Rozenberg wrote:
Although I have been an Anarchist for a while now, there are in my country (Palestine/Israel) no significant Anarchist organizations

although there is another poster here, treeofjudas, who's from israel and has pretty good politics, and i think feels similarly "engulfed by nationalist reformism" - so you never know, there might be potential for something to form in the future. welcome to the boards btw smile

knightrose
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Feb 12 2007 16:03

I for one would welcome a closer working relationship between groups like NEFAC, WSM and AF.

What amkes the differences between the groups around ILS any less significant than those between groups within the IFA?

WeTheYouth
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Feb 12 2007 16:14
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We are not part of the IWA because we don't subscribe to "orthodox" anarcho-syndicalism.

As opposed to what kind of anarcho syndicalism? What makes SAC unorthodox anarcho syndicalists and SF orthodox anarcho syndicalists?

Flint
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Feb 12 2007 16:41
Joe Roe wrote:
Building international relations not only engages disparate groups into a wider global movement, giving them confidence and support it offers a coherent, viable international anarchist alternative, which built properly can pose a decisive force in times that call for international solidarity - Or simply in times for mobilisations however small or large they may be.

This does not just apply to western countries (which can have a tendency to be quite centric) but to comrades and federations in other more repressive parts of the world who continuously need confidence building, support and solidarity from Internationals.

I'm of the opinion that there is clearly more benefit from being apart of an international than not being apart of one.

Right, which is why NEFAC joined the ILS.

Joe Roe wrote:
What I want to know is, how does the platformist/non-platformist approach and method mean practically for IAF and NEFAC? What is it practically that means unity cannot at least be discussed (in practical terms. Is there a fundamental schism that means practically we cannot unite into an international movement?

At the moment I'm failing to see why there would be? (Perhaps that's my naivety)

It's really a a lot simpler than that. NEFAC wouldn't join the IWA because frankly the IWA wouldn't have us, as it is somewhat narrowly focused on a certain interpretation of anarcho-syndicalism, and some of us had plenty of experience of that from membership in the IWW and WSA (that is relationship with the IWA, and the general hostility of some of the IWA to unions like the SAC and the CGT; as well as hostility to the I-99 conference in San Francisco).

NEFAC hasn't joined the IFA because the IFA was largely seen as inactive. From the website, that seems to have changed a bit. I also can't recall a single discussion at a NEFAC congress about the IFA. Noone has ever made a proposal abou it.

The ILS was new, included both the active platformist/specifista groups NEFAC was inspired by and already in contact with, the libertarian syndiaclist unions, and in France had a lot of overlap between different groups: Alternative Libertaire, CNT-F (Vignoles) and No Pasran.

Far from the sectaranism that many of us associate with some IWA comrades, the ILS seemed to make a real effort at inclusiveness. It also wasn't fixating on developing the same ideological line in the international organization, but generally sharing resources. The ILS also invited NEFAC to take part, invites us to conferences, etc.

I think the ILS sort of stalled a bit, from NEFAC's perspective--but we also haven't been extremely active with it. As mentioned, it has helped us improve our connections with CIPO-RFM. In general, the ILS seems a lot more stronger in Latin America, and for a lot of reasons... folks in NEFAC are more interested in increasing connections there; we are already on pretty good terms with a lot of anglophone and francophone groups.

Nobody in NEFAC has an anti-IFA thing, it just hasn't seemed very constructive to as at the moment to add another international group we are involved with when we aren't active enough with ILS. There is no epic drama to uncover here. No vast ideological chasm. I actually imagine that NEFAC might have more in common ideologically with some members of the IFA, than with say CIPO-RFM or the Spanish CGT. At the same time, the groups closest to us ideologically are the likes of the AL, WSM and ZACF.

NEFAC is also a fairly young organization. We didn't really exist until 2000, and a lot of our early activity was tied up in the protests against the WTO/IMF/WB/FTAA. From our perspective, the ILS also seemed like an outgrowth of that... at least our involvement in those activities. In 2000, the average age a NEFAC member was 23 and most of us had little experience in social movements. We consciously de-emphasized summit protests and decided not to take a lead in initiating an anti-authoritarian section of the anti-war movement (though we have consistently done a lot of anti-war work; and in retrospect... not putting more emphasis might have been a mistake). Instead, we focused on getting involved in those social movements on a local level, with varying degrees of success. Those things can take a long while... and I think the organization is gradually changing from black bloc super-activists collective... to something a bit more mature that people at different stages in their life can feel that they participate in a meaningful way.

In my opinion, in terms of international solidarity from U.S. anarchists groups... the group that does the best job of that is the WSA, thanks to the tireless work of Mitch Miller. The IWA lost a lot by loosing Mitch and the WSA. WSA does a better job of it than NEFAC, than the IWW's international solidarity committee, and better than Black Bridges International.

Flint
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Feb 12 2007 16:46
WeTheYouth wrote:
Quote:
We are not part of the IWA because we don't subscribe to "orthodox" anarcho-syndicalism.

As opposed to what kind of anarcho syndicalism? What makes SAC unorthodox anarcho syndicalists and SF orthodox anarcho syndicalists?

I think Tomas from the CNT-F (AIT) and Rata from the Anarho-sindikalistička inicijativa (Serbia) could better answer your question.

Dumfries
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Feb 12 2007 17:12
Flint wrote:
Nobody in NEFAC has an anti-IFA thing, it just hasn't seemed very constructive to as at the moment to add another international group we are involved with when we aren't active enough with ILS.

That seems reasonable, although I am sure there are things within IAF that NEFAC could get involved in locally - Even if it's just days of action?

Quote:
There is no epic drama to uncover here. No vast ideological chasm.

I wasn't suggesting that there were, I am genuinely interested in why there hasn't ever been an official move to at least discuss practical unity with IAF?

Quote:
folks in NEFAC are more interested in increasing connections there; we are already on pretty good terms with a lot of anglophone and francophone groups.

Of course IAF have affiliates in Argentina and friends in Venezuela so it always helps to connect all these federations in to a more coherent unified 'force'.

I think there is an argument to be made that NEFAC joining IAF would help solidify further a sense of international anarchist unity and help build connections. There are comrades in Eastern Europe who may benefit from official connections with American and Canadian comrades and vice versa?

Quote:
I also can't recall a single discussion at a NEFAC congress about the IFA. Noone has ever made a proposal abou it.

It seems as if, at present, there is no real desire to do so. This, I personally think is a shame.

Hopefully things may change in the future smile

Flint
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Feb 12 2007 18:05
Joe Roe wrote:
That seems reasonable, although I am sure there are things within IAF that NEFAC could get involved in locally - Even if it's just days of action?

Well, tell us about a day of action, and we might do something about it.

Joe Roe wrote:
I wasn't suggesting that there were, I am genuinely interested in why there hasn't ever been an official move to at least discuss practical unity with IAF?

Because, noone has ever proposed it. Figuring out our relationship to say reformist unions in our area, seemed more practical.

Joe Roe wrote:
Of course IAF have affiliates in Argentina and friends in Venezuela so it always helps to connect all these federations in to a more coherent unified 'force'.

Who is the Venezuelan affiliate? We'd like to have more of a connection there (particularly since it's the most likely target of a U.S. petrol war in Latin America), but from what we've heard, there is a lot of controversy around position of some Venezuelan anarchists in regards to Chavez and also the employer lock out "general strike". I'm not putting out an opinion here, just pointing out that there is a controversy.

As to Argentina, we are affiliated with the OSL through the ILS, and have had members meet with OSL members, who were even present during some of the most recent dramatic events.

Quote:
I think there is an argument to be made that NEFAC joining IAF would help solidify further a sense of international anarchist unity and help build connections. There are comrades in Eastern Europe who may benefit from official connections with American and Canadian comrades and vice versa?

When Barricada was still publishing, and James was still part of NEFAC, NEFAC had stronger relationships with Eastern European comrades. Those relationships weakening is by no means intentional. If we had to choose emphasis though, I think most NEFACers would want to emphasize solidarity with comrades in Latin America. It's easier to get to, it's where the majority of immigrants in the U.S. are coming from, and the states we operate in are part of the same trade and political agreements (NAFTA, FTAA, OAS).

Joe Roe wrote:
Quote:
I also can't recall a single discussion at a NEFAC congress about the IFA. Noone has ever made a proposal abou it.

It seems as if, at present, there is no real desire to do so. This, I personally think is a shame.

Hopefully things may change in the future :)

Let's turn this around a bit. What does AF participation with the IFA mean in practical terms? Why doesn't the AF join something more inclusive like the ILS? It would seem that the ILS encompasses numerically more libertarian socialists, in more countries, with more languages.

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gatorojinegro
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Feb 12 2007 19:07

i was an observer, on behalf of WSA, at the 2003 ILS
meeting in Porto Alegre. This was held at the headquarters
of the FAG. The ILS seemed to be mainly a vehicle for providing assistance to the Latin Americans from the organizations in the global north. There were representatives at that meeting from Zabalaza, CGT, Uruguayan FAU, AUCA (Argentine especifista group, since dissolved i think), CIPO-RFM, FAG, a Chilean group, Luta Libertaria (Sao Paulo). I don't think there was anybody there from OSL but i could be mistaken.

t.

knightrose
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Feb 12 2007 20:35
Quote:
Let's turn this around a bit. What does AF participation with the IFA mean in practical terms? Why doesn't the AF join something more inclusive like the ILS? It would seem that the ILS encompasses numerically more libertarian socialists, in more countries, with more languages.

Leaving aside the issues of which international grouping we're in. Isn't it worth asking how (or whether) we can work more closely togteher?

Flint
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Feb 12 2007 20:44
knightrose wrote:
Leaving aside the issues of which international grouping we're in. Isn't it worth asking how (or whether) we can work more closely togteher?

Sure. What do you propose?

knightrose
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Feb 12 2007 20:58

That would be something to discuss at relevant conferences or whatever. But we will be having a presence at the bookfair coming up in NY, I think. It might be worth a few friendly words there.
Likewise a couple of us are going to the Dublin bookfair and hopefully will be able to do likewise with the WSM.
It's really a question of working out what issues affect us both. With the Irish comrades it's a little easier as there are a couple of obvious common issues. The Rossport struggle seems to have improved relations between us already, particularly as a number of us visited there last summer, met WSMers in the flesh and have hosted a WSMer doing a speaking tour over here.

Smash Rich Bastards
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Feb 13 2007 00:51
knightrose wrote:
I for one would welcome a closer working relationship between groups like NEFAC, WSM and AF.

What amkes the differences between the groups around ILS any less significant than those between groups within the IFA?

I might be wrong, but I thought the IAF had a 'one group/branch per country' membership clause. If this is true, it becomes a little problematic for us because our membership is limited geographically to one small region, which spans two countries. Also, I got the impression that there was some level of coolness towards platformist organizations... at least among the French-speaking affilates.

If we were welcome, and fit whatever criteria we needed to fit to become members I would personally be in favor of us joining, or at the least sending someone to attend the next conference as an observer and talk more with other members.

syndicalist
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Feb 13 2007 07:03
Flint wrote:
In my opinion, in terms of international solidarity from U.S. anarchists groups... the group that does the best job of that is the WSA ... The IWA lost a lot by loosing ... the WSA. WSA does a better job of it than NEFAC, than the IWW's international solidarity committee, and better than Black Bridges International.

Thanks Flint.

Anyway...the struggle for a better day will never end, regardless of affiliation. Comrades, you can count on the WSA.

knightrose
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Feb 13 2007 08:57

SRB, I don't think anyone's actually suggesting joining each other's internationals. It's more a case of improving bilateral relations.

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Steven.
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Feb 13 2007 10:45
knightrose wrote:
SRB, I don't think anyone's actually suggesting joining each other's internationals. It's more a case of improving bilateral relations.

I'm not sure about the one group/branch per country thing. I'm sure the French speaking fed have members in Belgium

Yeah and Morocco, no?

Smash Rich Bastards wrote:
Also, I got the impression that there was some level of coolness towards platformist organizations... at least among the French-speaking affilates.

French? Hmmm I never noticed that. I did amongst Spanish ones though.

Flint wrote:
Joe Roe wrote:
Of course IAF have affiliates in Argentina and friends in Venezuela so it always helps to connect all these federations in to a more coherent unified 'force'.

Who is the Venezuelan affiliate? We'd like to have more of a connection there (particularly since it's the most likely target of a U.S. petrol war in Latin America), but from what we've heard, there is a lot of controversy around position of some Venezuelan anarchists in regards to Chavez and also the employer lock out "general strike". I'm not putting out an opinion here, just pointing out that there is a controversy.

The only "controversy" I've seen was with that dickhead nationalist Maoist-loving compulsive liar twat "rise."

Quote:
Let's turn this around a bit. What does AF participation with the IFA mean in practical terms? Why doesn't the AF join something more inclusive like the ILS? It would seem that the ILS encompasses numerically more libertarian socialists, in more countries, with more languages.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the ILS is dead. Isn't it? I thought the unions were putting their energies into FESAL and that European alternative union federation thing instead?

syndicalist
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Feb 13 2007 13:54

If I may, one of the reasons why WSA has been able to get campaigns up and running is because we have always tried to "cross the great divide". That is, develop relationships which transcend political and organizational differences ---even if it's just adding someone to a mailing list, or asking about an article in their press or about a struggle which they're involved in. This is not to minimize differences and there will be times when no relations are possible between some organizations. But on the overall it's often times better to have lines of communication open, even if it's infrequesnt and informal.

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georgestapleton
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Feb 14 2007 17:38
John. wrote:
knightrose wrote:
SRB, I don't think anyone's actually suggesting joining each other's internationals. It's more a case of improving bilateral relations.

I'm not sure about the one group/branch per country thing. I'm sure the French speaking fed have members in Belgium

Yeah and Morocco, no?

Smash Rich Bastards wrote:
Also, I got the impression that there was some level of coolness towards platformist organizations... at least among the French-speaking affilates.

French? Hmmm I never noticed that. I did amongst Spanish ones though.

Yeah as far as I know the FAF is pretty anti-platformist. It goes back to George Fontenis and all that jazz. As far as i know.

Smash Rich Bastards
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Feb 14 2007 18:00
knightrose wrote:
SRB, I don't think anyone's actually suggesting joining each other's internationals. It's more a case of improving bilateral relations.

My understanding of the ILS was that it was never intended to be a competing anarchist international. More of a solidarity network. Although, as far as I know its not even that these days. It may very well be a dead project at this point.

The closest NEFAC has to an "international" is our membership in the network of groups involved with the Anarkismo project (which, in addition to us, has participation from groups hailing from Brazil, Chile, Peru, Ireland, Italy, France, Norway, Greece, Turkey, and elsewhere). But I think the general consensus there is that we are not at a level where we could launch a functioning international federation.

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epk
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Feb 14 2007 22:36

Joseph K.: I know treeofjudas in person, actually... funny who you meet on Brittish forums tongue

Flint wrote:
It's really a a lot simpler than that. NEFAC wouldn't join the IWA because frankly the IWA wouldn't have us, as it is somewhat narrowly focused on a certain interpretation of anarcho-syndicalism, and some of us had plenty of experience of that from membership in the IWW and WSA (that is relationship with the IWA, and the general hostility of some of the IWA to unions like the SAC and the CGT; as well as hostility to the I-99 conference in San Francisco).

This October I was on a trip through Europe, visiting with various activists and groups. Specifically, I was visiting with the CNT in Seville, Andalucia. They didn't mention these global-level disputes, but they did bring up some criticism of the CGT which is the reason I started getting interested in these questions. Anyway, my instinct is of course to side with people I've met and have related well too - but I really don't feel I can make up my mind between the two following rough sketches of outlooks:

"The IWA are ossified, dogmatic and pedantic and are driving people and organizations away, and the SAC, CGT etc. are criticized on technicalities and with 'impure' motives."

and

"Many of the ILS-SIL members have serious issues - taking state money, acting sectantically or in bad faith on various occassions, etc., and it is repeated these issues and repeated manipulative or otherwise inappropriate conduct on their part which . The IWA may be too strict in some of its decisions but they are underlining serious problems which need to be addressed seriously, not by sweeping things under the carpet in the name of non-adherence to orthodoxy and of tactial flexibility."

Phebus
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Feb 19 2007 02:46

I'M also a member of NEFAC and have served a rather long term on the International Secretary.

While everything being said here by other NEFAC members is all true, there is just one thing that I would like to clarify. SRB gave the impression that we are in the ILS because they contacted us and some might then think that the IFA never contacted us. Well, it's not true. We where indeed contacted a number of time by various Secretary of the IFA (the Italian, then the French and finaly the English), we where send the various booklet containing the IFA congress resolutions and we where invited to all of their recent International congress. We never went there because we never had the money to send anybody (the only time when we send someone to a congress is when somebody is already going). We have good relationship with at least 3 IFA affiliates (FA (France), AF (UK) and FAI (Spain)). Comrades from France even visit us on a regular basis (and even send a delegate to one of our congress).

Why we are not members then? I, for one, would not be confortable joining the IFA... I see it as the synthesist internationational and even if we have fraternal relations with some affiliates, we still disagree on a lot of issues.

On a practical basis, we dont have the money to participate in an International. It's as simple as that. That was a problem with the ILS too. Except in Porto-Alegre, because someone was already going, we where never able to send someone to the meetings.

On a political basis, we are not strong enough. When we will have a viable, functioning federation, then we will be able to think larger. And even then, building something in North-America would still be a priority over going International... Right now, NEFAC is young and it is still preatty fragile. We must concentrate all our energy on it.

futuretech68
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Feb 19 2007 03:15

Well the NEFAC are Anarcho-Communists, a throw back to the Malatesta of the 1880's before proper class struggle Anarchism emerged ie Anarcho - Sydicalism ....

I havent been convinced enough that the class struggle has changed that much .... to ditch Anarcho - Sydicalism and go back to the 1880's or late 60's with AFED / NEFAC and Malatesta !

Flint
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Feb 19 2007 04:44
futuretech68 wrote:
Well the NEFAC are Anarcho-Communists, a throw back to the Malatesta of the 1880's before proper class struggle Anarchism emerged ie Anarcho - Sydicalism ....

I havent been convinced enough that the class struggle has changed that much .... to ditch Anarcho - Sydicalism and go back to the 1880's or late 60's with AFED / NEFAC and Malatesta !

Uh... what are you even saying? NEFAC supports syndicalism as as a strategy and tactic. NEFAC works with existing unions (including the IWW). At this time, NEFAC is not engaged in building a specifically anarcho-syndicalist union.

NEFAC Workplace Position Paper

futuretech68
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Feb 19 2007 06:25

On the NEFAC workplace position paper:

Well its all a bit hairy fair e - e - you can have all sorta State Socialist (The NEFAC supposly being Anti - State ! ) elements in the IWW ie the Socialist Labour Party of the 20's attempting a dual Party Sydicalist Strategy and ex elemets of the SSP's elemets inflitrating the IWW in uk at the moment.

So you see how theres lots of faction fighting that is potential brewing with the IWW as there has been in past with the IWW in the USA East / West .... which to be honest as a music producer i have better things to do with my time !

I just have had sorta enuf of this piece - meal Anarcho - Communism its like it doesnt have a honest analysis of working class history ie the CGT France , USI Italy, CNT spain etc it belongs in the Malatesta of the 1880's or the Middle Class late 60's.

Just look at history and accept Anarcho - Sydicalism is the way forward ( recent Mercodona srtike in Barcelona for one example ) and we will save lots of petty time and potentially humanity !

For Working Class Anarcho - Sydicalism !

Not Unemployed / Middle Class NEFAC !

futuretech68
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Feb 19 2007 06:35

Well you like a arugment Revol, you must be a very sexually repressed person under all that posing, read the mass psychology of fascism by wilhelm reich !

Right cos im a Anarcho - Sydicalist im not right in the head ...

If driving fascism out of Barcelona in May 36 is not right in the head, well the heads are none !

Well i stick to what i said so smile just read it, rather not have petty pointless remarks from people ( ie revol ) who should just be having a wank, anyway read on ...

I rather not go personal with this.

futuretech68
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Feb 19 2007 06:35

Well you like a arugment Revol, you must be a very sexually repressed person under all that posing, read the mass psychology of fascism by wilhelm reich !

Right cos im a Anarcho - Sydicalist im not right in the head ...

If driving fascism out of Barcelona in May 36 is not right in the head, well the heads are none !

Well i stick to what i said so smile just read it, rather not have petty pointless remarks from people ( ie revol ) who should just be having a wank, anyway read on ...

I rather not go personal with this.

magnifico
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Feb 19 2007 06:44

ft68 the problem isn't that you say are an anarcho-syndicalist, it is that you are being very rude about NEFAC and AFED when you obviously know very little about them or what they do.