oops sorry, I probs need sleep
Oct 18 2011 01:55
Oct 18 2011 05:48
mons wrote:
I'm slightly worried that these protests might add to the influence and numbers of people promoting this kind of perspective, along with the Zeitgeist-type perspective. Or at least it's bringing them out of the shadows and into actual organising and doing stuff, for better or worse. I think a massive load of people, a significant proportion of young people, are really into Zeitgeist-type stuff, and conspiracy theories about Rothschild's etc. That's just based on the people who went to my school and what they're into now though, so isn't based on any actual proper evidence.
The Zeitgeist types seem to be having a coming out party as echoed elsewhere maybe in this thread. It seems to be really intertwined with right wing crypto anti-semite conservative Rothschild conspiracy stuff, and the kids seem to lap it up. Also does anyone know where they get their funding from? They seem to be throwing quite a lot of money around. Would be interested in any leaflet/critiques from an Anarcho perspective.
Oct 18 2011 10:16
Oct 18 2011 10:18
Mouzone wrote:
mons wrote:
I'm slightly worried that these protests might add to the influence and numbers of people promoting this kind of perspective, along with the Zeitgeist-type perspective. Or at least it's bringing them out of the shadows and into actual organising and doing stuff, for better or worse. I think a massive load of people, a significant proportion of young people, are really into Zeitgeist-type stuff, and conspiracy theories about Rothschild's etc. That's just based on the people who went to my school and what they're into now though, so isn't based on any actual proper evidence.The Zeitgeist types seem to be having a coming out party as echoed elsewhere maybe in this thread. It seems to be really intertwined with right wing crypto anti-semite conservative Rothschild conspiracy stuff, and the kids seem to lap it up. Also does anyone know where they get their funding from? They seem to be throwing quite a lot of money around. Would be interested in any leaflet/critiques from an Anarcho perspective.
Couple of years back I wrote a critique of the Zeitgeist and the Zeitgeist Adendum in Hungarian perhaps I will translate it, just to add it to the common. But to sum it up, I would say this is a very dangerous path to choose. First of all, at the heart of all big global conspiracy theories is the assumption is a kind of belief of a universal Evil character. Now, while I don't sympathize with any bourgeois asshole, but they are certainly not evil characters, even if they are bankers. Personal interest only contributes to a social system, that was established on the basis of personal interest, no matter how you make your living, labour or profit.
In the recent times, internet gave a rise of the conspiracy theories big time. While we, communists are sticking to our materialist perspective, which always will involve evidence based arguments, conspiracy theories are "sexy" because they don't pull hundreds of references, proving, deep understanding of the world, only a superficial glimpse to our reality. The partially sad fact is, that while we are right in our method to understand the world through this historical materialism, it is able to hardly challenge such a narrow minded explanations, why the world is shit.
It seems harmless, or even understandable sometimes: the bailout of banks has drawn public attention, and people start to blame the banks. Zeitgeist movement with its "big discovery" of the money multiplier effect could get easily involved with the banker-focused movements. No wonder then, how we ended up with this shit pile at all. But to be honest, I have no clue how to deal with this surge of newage crap. At some point, it's the same as religions: you can't just argue against the existence of god, or the world-conspirator jews, who're living off the fraction reserve system. The very premises of such an ideology is that they are so perfectly disguised, and you're brainwashed not to see them. It's very discomforting to see this happening.
Oct 18 2011 11:41
It is discomforting, but I don't think it's a particularly novel phenonemon. If you look back at the close-grained social history of things like the French revolution or what have you, there's a hell of a lot of conspiracy theory going around at the time.
I think the problem (conspiralunacy) is more fundamental and one that we have to understand and confront as promoters of a left perspective. While I don't accept Lakoff's concept of cognitive frames entirely uncritically, the terms can be useful.
People understand the world through stories and the basic convention of stories is to personalise or embody problems and principles into characters. So most people's starting position, as a frame, is to see the existence of evil as an indication of wickedness or "bad people". The left perspective is that social problems are predominantely caused by systemic problems. Our difficulty - and the conspiraloon's opportunity - is that the "systemic problem" frame is much more difficult (at least initially) to sell than the "wicked people" frame. But sell it we must.
One of the more effective ways of challenging frames is to make them explicit and lay them out for inspection. In this case we need to convince people that Grimm's fairy tales may have been an effective way of scaring kids to stay out of the woods in times gone by, but that they are not going to help us overcome the problems of a system that works according to a logic of money rather than human need.
I remember seeing a documentary on Toni Negri a few years back and he came out with a line something like "Evil does not exist. There's no evil, there's only us" - which given Negri's somewhat Luciferan past, may not be as reassuring as it might otherwise be 
, but I think the point is sound. Of course it's hard not to see the likes of Jamie Dimon and Lloyd Blankfein as evil hollywood-style villains, but if we are serious about capitalism as a social system being the problem, not the individuals who happen to currently be filling the roles of the top capitalists, then we do have to push that line to a degree.
Oct 18 2011 12:54
ocelot: I read your post with interest. I think your example of how people understand the world is quite useful to challenge this strain of conspiracy theorist perspective. Though it seems quite a task: basically it's idealism vs materialism once more and the old methods clearly didn't do the job.
I think it worth to look in to. It's not just about the zeitgeist, illuminati and such: the understanding of how the world works is essential task for building a revolutionary movement. Effective arguments against the lines of "banks and corruption" would be great weapon against the reformist propaganda.
Oct 18 2011 13:28
I think the attendance in London was - and continues to be - really low, and this, IMO, indicates some of the limits of this movement. It's predominantly young and internet-savvy hippy liberals whose only unifying ideology is a fundamentalist pacifism. Other than that, I think we should remember that 10x as many people came to G20, 250x more to M26 and more even went to UK Uncut's pro-NHS demo the week before. It's largely clueless, abstract beyond belief and utterly, utterly non-threatening.
Moreover, as the wintry winds and chills set in, as well as the working week, it seems to demonstrate a certain amount of activist ghettoisation in its obstinant, immovable, pseudo-authoritarian 'tactics' and pseudo-discussions. If folks decided to 'occupy' their local parks, or flat blocks, or Job Centres, etc, then I'd be excited.
I mean, I can see a thin sliver of potential in events here (eg if they get battered by the cops and/or abandon their incredibly dogmatic insistence on a strategy that i'm sure even they know will fail), but for the moment at least, I'm applying the Morrissey Law here ("it says nothing to me about myyyy liiife" ).
Oct 18 2011 20:47
I think that the issue is wider than conspiracy theories involving the Illuminanti, Jews, Rothschilds, etc. These are just an extreme end of a right wing idea that is perfectly compatible with leftism and it is one that is being pushed to the hilt by all elements of the ruling class and their media - they may even believe it, that's not the point. The idea is that the economic crisis is the fault of untamed capitalism, the traders, the speculators, the banks/bankers, the financial side of capitalism - these, or a combination of them, is a source of all ills.
The solution is therefore simple: regulation (or "real" regulation), put a stop to speculation and banking excesses, manage capital in a more equitable manner for the good of all. This is nothing but an ideological smokescreen peddled by the right and the left and its message is to promote the ideas of reform, democracy and the perpetuity of capitalism - and all such related illusions. To this end, the whole of the bourgeoisie's media points their fingers at the "exesses" of capitalism and the irresponsibility of its financial sector.
What is particularly strong about this mystification is that it is based on an element of obvious truth and a real revulsion within the exploited masses against the greed and cynicism of the political and economic apparatus. But the economic crisis of capitalism is much deeper than its symptoms here and there.
It is a system that has attempted to maintain its profits by the extension of debt since the 1970s and all the time needing more and more of the drug in order to maintain its profits. Capitalism has always been a savage system of exploitation with its representatives, whether bankers or industrialists, ready to sacrifice as many workers as necessary on the alter of profits. The amount of debt forwarded to the system in the last forty years (and still growing) can only lead to "irresponsibility" and speculation. For example, in 2008, financial transactions amounted to $2.200,000 billion against a world Gross National Product of $55, 000 billion (http://www.jacquesbgelinas.com/index_files/Page3236/htm), ie, forty times more than real (and this is overestimated) world trade.
The economic crisis is much more profound than financial elements which are only the symptoms of a far deeper and deadly malaise. The left certainly has no answer; look at the "bolivarian socialism" of Chavez (whose largest trading partner is the Great Satan itself) which is attacking the working class and going down the capitalist pan along with everyone else.
Oct 18 2011 21:11
Rosa Noir wrote:
Quote:
R.R. Berkman wrote:from my point of view as an anarchist-communist who happens to be a Jew, I perceive a metric shit-tonne of crypto/overt anti-Semitism from a lot of the folks.well yes, i haven't been involved with or even been able to pass by Occupy Newcastle this weekend, but have just seen some photos and what stands out is an anti-semitic "peace" flag hanging in pride of place. Earlier photos show it being carried by one woman (probably a lone conspiracy type) but the fact that it has presumably gone unchallenged and people are happy to have their banners next to it is absolutely shit.
That flag is the symbol of some ufo-religion bullshit that is so fucking bonkers it's not funny but scary and creepy and I want no part of that kind of movement. and people think anarchist flags put 'normal' people off!!!!!
Quote:
At the age of 27, Claude Vorilhon (now known as “Rael”) was living his passion as a race-car driver and journalist. That was to change on December 13, 1973, when, on his way to work, he had the UFO encounter that transformed his life forever. From that day forward, he has toured the world recounting his astonishing experience in media interviews and conferences.
Listen to Rael as he describes in detail what he lived that day.
Oct 18 2011 21:23
Sidney Huffman wrote:
Rosa Noir wrote:
Quote:
R.R. Berkman wrote:from my point of view as an anarchist-communist who happens to be a Jew, I perceive a metric shit-tonne of crypto/overt anti-Semitism from a lot of the folks.well yes, i haven't been involved with or even been able to pass by Occupy Newcastle this weekend, but have just seen some photos and what stands out is an anti-semitic "peace" flag hanging in pride of place. Earlier photos show it being carried by one woman (probably a lone conspiracy type) but the fact that it has presumably gone unchallenged and people are happy to have their banners next to it is absolutely shit.
That flag is the symbol of some ufo-religion bullshit that is so fucking bonkers it's not funny but scary and creepy and I want no part of that kind of movement. and people think anarchist flags put 'normal' people off!!!!!
The Raëlians also advocate a crazy system that reminds me of the technocrat weirdos that are the Zeitgeist Movement:
The organizers tolerate all this shit but they threaten to give people's details out if they don't toe their ultra-pacifist line. 
Oct 18 2011 23:31
EGADS wrote:
the technocrat weirdos
I wonder what "socialist" forum online has given them a huge platform to spread their silly ideas?
Oct 19 2011 00:04
Hey all,
Yes the swazi-star of david is the Raelians. They have a new updated model which is less mind boggling batshit mental but the true believes still hold to the older one. I live in Brisbane which is pretty much their strong-hold in Australia (maybe Byron Bay too) and in my local suburb there is a sculpture of a space ship they helped pay-for.
Occupy Brisbane has also had a fair share of Zeitgeist/Chemtrails/anti-vaccines/end the Fed/Ron Paul/Law of Attraction wackyness. But things really went off the charts when THIS HAPPENED!
There are some positives - a Free University of (Occupied) Brisbane has been started to create space for more serious discussion and that is getting some good attention.
Also there are a lot of interesting people who just drop by and want a chat.
cheers
Dave
Oct 19 2011 00:11
grumpy cat wrote:
Hey all,
Yes the swazi-star of david is the Raelians. They have a new updated model which is less mind boggling batshit mental but the true believes still hold to the older one. I live in Brisbane which is pretty much their strong-hold in Australia (maybe Byron Bay too) and in my local suburb there is a sculpture of a space ship they helped pay-for.
Occupy Brisbane has also had a fair share of Zeitgeist/Chemtrails/anti-vaccines/end the Fed/Ron Paul/Law of Attraction wackyness. But things really went off the charts when THIS HAPPENED!
There are some positives - a Free University of (Occupied) Brisbane has been started to create space for more serious discussion and that is getting some good attention.
Also there are a lot of interesting people who just drop by and want a chat.
cheers
Dave
"People are not sleeping in Africa"
This is my favorite
I think in the end though, the most dangerous (ideologically) will be the liberals.
Oct 19 2011 00:25
baboon wrote:
I think that the issue is wider than conspiracy theories involving the Illuminanti, Jews, Rothschilds, etc. These are just an extreme end of a right wing idea that is perfectly compatible with leftism and it is one that is being pushed to the hilt by all elements of the ruling class and their media - they may even believe it, that's not the point. The idea is that the economic crisis is the fault of untamed capitalism, the traders, the speculators, the banks/bankers, the financial side of capitalism - these, or a combination of them, is a source of all ills.The solution is therefore simple: regulation (or "real" regulation), put a stop to speculation and banking excesses, manage capital in a more equitable manner for the good of all. This is nothing but an ideological smokescreen peddled by the right and the left and its message is to promote the ideas of reform, democracy and the perpetuity of capitalism - and all such related illusions. To this end, the whole of the bourgeoisie's media points their fingers at the "exesses" of capitalism and the irresponsibility of its financial sector.
What is particularly strong about this mystification is that it is based on an element of obvious truth and a real revulsion within the exploited masses against the greed and cynicism of the political and economic apparatus. But the economic crisis of capitalism is much deeper than its symptoms here and there.
It is a system that has attempted to maintain its profits by the extension of debt since the 1970s and all the time needing more and more of the drug in order to maintain its profits. Capitalism has always been a savage system of exploitation with its representatives, whether bankers or industrialists, ready to sacrifice as many workers as necessary on the alter of profits. The amount of debt forwarded to the system in the last forty years (and still growing) can only lead to "irresponsibility" and speculation. For example, in 2008, financial transactions amounted to $2.200,000 billion against a world Gross National Product of $55, 000 billion (http://www.jacquesbgelinas.com/index_files/Page3236/htm), ie, forty times more than real (and this is overestimated) world trade.
The economic crisis is much more profound than financial elements which are only the symptoms of a far deeper and deadly malaise. The left certainly has no answer; look at the "bolivarian socialism" of Chavez (whose largest trading partner is the Great Satan itself) which is attacking the working class and going down the capitalist pan along with everyone else.
That's the best summary of the thing...However, crazy or not it's what there is....we should carry on (with discussion and enlightment.)
Oct 19 2011 04:40
How many of these economically illiterate people are trying to keep "the left" from "co-opting" the "movement"? I even heard some of them were defending racists/fascists as part of the "99%".
Definition of PESSIMISM
1
: an inclination to emphasize adverse aspects, conditions, and possibilities or to expect the worst possible outcome
2
a : the doctrine that reality is essentially evil b : the doctrine that evil overbalances happiness in life
— pes·si·mist \-mist\ noun
Oct 19 2011 07:22
OccupyLSX have posted a link to Google Moderator from their twitter page.
Quite interesting, I didn't know about Google Moderator - a useful tool?
Some fairly reformist proposals being put forward - but also the opportunity to directly engage with the people making them and people voting on them.
Oct 19 2011 12:44
CRUD wrote:
EGADS wrote:
the technocrat weirdos
I wonder what "socialist" forum online has given them a huge platform to spread their silly ideas?
To be honest, RevLeft would still be a pile of shit even without any technocrat mods, considering how it's infested with die-hard trots and tankies. Heck, one of the first threads I read there was one about whether "Stalin was right" and half the twats were justifying what he did.
Oct 19 2011 12:09
grumpy cat wrote:
Hey all,
Yes the swazi-star of david is the Raelians. They have a new updated model which is less mind boggling batshit mental but the true believes still hold to the older one. I live in Brisbane which is pretty much their strong-hold in Australia (maybe Byron Bay too) and in my local suburb there is a sculpture of a space ship they helped pay-for.
Occupy Brisbane has also had a fair share of Zeitgeist/Chemtrails/anti-vaccines/end the Fed/Ron Paul/Law of Attraction wackyness. But things really went off the charts when THIS HAPPENED!
This....sounds....terrible....
Oct 19 2011 12:54
Arbeiten wrote:
grumpy cat wrote:
Hey all,
Yes the swazi-star of david is the Raelians. They have a new updated model which is less mind boggling batshit mental but the true believes still hold to the older one. I live in Brisbane which is pretty much their strong-hold in Australia (maybe Byron Bay too) and in my local suburb there is a sculpture of a space ship they helped pay-for.
Occupy Brisbane has also had a fair share of Zeitgeist/Chemtrails/anti-vaccines/end the Fed/Ron Paul/Law of Attraction wackyness. But things really went off the charts when THIS HAPPENED!This....sounds....terrible....
Conspiracy theorists...I think I actually hate them more than I hate fash or tankies(which is a lot!). They're as bad as the frigging primmies. 
Also, this:
DC Hat Guy wrote:
The vibes are so good here that I havent smoked drugs for three days
Oct 19 2011 12:48
yeah the conspiracy theorists are going to ruin everything! Prims and Fash are conspiracy theorists man. Prims think the whole of humanity and 'civilization' is a conspiracy, while fash have a race conspiracy. I don't know what a tankie is. Sounds like something you would call an alcoholic...
Oct 19 2011 12:57
Arbeiten wrote:
yeah the conspiracy theorists are going to ruin everything! Prims and Fash are conspiracy theorists man. Prims think the whole of humanity and 'civilization' is a conspiracy, while fash have a race conspiracy. I don't know what a tankie is. Sounds like something you would call an alcoholic...
I know that fash are a different type of conspiracy theorist(mostly the "Jewish finance, political correctness stifling everything, letting the immigrants take over, Islamisation" etc), but at least you don't see the BNP prattling on about chemtrails/vaccines/"poisoned food"/etc.
Though, a good deal of conspiracy theorists like Alex Jones, LaRouche, UK Column et al do have a nationalistic character...
And "tankie" is slang for a Stalinist.
Oct 19 2011 12:54
@Arbeiten; tankies are hardline stalinists, who approve of the tanks being sent into Hungary in '56 and stuff. We used to bump into a couple of them in Jarrow in the old days. They were known as...err...'The Jarra Tankies'.
Oct 19 2011 12:59
aaaah Stalinists, gotcha . Didn't realize they existed outside of RevLeft...
As for conspiracy theorists and fash. Yeah totally, just look at the stupid flag ^^^^
Oct 19 2011 13:12
DC Hat Guy wrote:
The vibes are so good here that I havent smoked drugs for three days
That guy is actually beyond parody.
The lameness and high profile wankery of this Occupy movement is great propoganda for authoritarian Stalinist types...
Oct 19 2011 14:28
Yeah that article and the DC Hat Guy is pretty ridiculous, but that's where a lot of people are and it's worth engaging with. Also, the vibes being so good that he hasn't felt like drugs for a few days (when presumably normally he has stuff all the time) is genuinely good!
Oct 20 2011 04:04
This is from a local Leninist blog, some brief reports on 3 out of the 4 current occupations in New Zealand. It seems fairly accurate to me, unfortunately.
Quote:
Occupy WellingtonDon Franks writes:
A friend of mine went on the Saturday, the first day of the event and told me later that the majority were young hippies, smoking dope and drumming.
Two of us looked in on the Sunday morning. At the top of the bridge there was just a row of placards and no people, but they were there round the corner.
One the small grassy space beside the top of the bridge was a ring of five or six pup tents with an inner circle of twenty young hippies on mats, deep in discussion. For a former hippie like me it was like being suddenly transported back to 1971. The only difference between today and our old Jerusalem commune was what they were passing round. We used to circulate a number, or else an ordinary tobacco cigarette. These folks were passing a small blue plastic baseball bat which served them as a talking stick.
They were quite uninterested in our appearance and we stood a bit awkwardly for a minute waiting to be called onto their marae. Then a slightly older guy got up and came over to greet us. We had a bit of a yarn with him standing apart from the circle.
When asked he said they’d had no trouble with the police, who’d left them alone to chalk their slogans on the walls and play their guitar. We commented that there was no one there that we recognised from the left and asked if they were hooked up to any organisation, he said they were unaffiliated to anything. ( I felt there must have been some common association, because they were all very much the same in terms of age, appearance and general demeanour.)
When we asked where this thing was going he proudly said they were hoping to get the mayor down to meet them, as if this was the high point of their project. I said mate, the mayor and the council are totally committed to capitalism, she’s part of the problem.
He’s like, ah but we’re hoping to win her over. Knowing the mayor would be capable of eating them all for breakfast before she was properly awake I got a bit shitty and tried, with spectacular lack of success, to convince the guy that the mayor is one of the enemy. He was not to be moved and said them and the mayor both agree on light rail. His manner, I have to say, was that of a kindly vicar patiently explaining something to a rather stupid child. I was uncomfortably reminded of my own past know it all hippie mindset.
Not long after that we shook hands and agreed to disagree about the revolutionary potential of the mayor. We wished them well and headed back home.
On reflection the gathering had an overall religious feel to it. They were certainly heavily fixated on something and it wasn’t anti-capitalist militancy of any variety that I’ve ever come across.
I’d been feeling a bit guilty about going, the day before, to the Kapimana Country and Western club instead of the first day’s protest. Well, perhaps Occupy Wellington may develop in a bit more progressive direction, but it’s hard for me to see how. If the guy I debated with is typical they are nice enough folks but not very open to any concrete anticapitalist concepts.
Occupy Christchurch.
Phil Ferguson
Saturday 15th October
I was at the Christchurch Occupy site very briefly for a while before and after 1pm Saturday. I’d say there were maybe a hundred people there. Mostly faces I didn’t know, which was good; but, again, a rather student/bohemian-looking group. There was an open mic and I heard about half a dozen people speak; mainly they wished for a better world with equality and caring and sharing and so on.
Everyone got a polite clap, even a besuited young guy who said it was wrong to attack corporate
greed because corporate greed could be good for society and we were all greedy anyway and that the problem was something to do with the political system. Longtime local anarcho-feminist Jo spoke about the October 15 arrests and how they fitted a longtime pattern of suppression in this country…
One of the speakers was also a student from Linwood College, one of the lowest-decile high schools here and one that was hard hit by the quakes. He and a few others had started up a Political Society at school and he said they had 16 members.
Thursday 20th October
There are now about four bigger tents and about ten pup tents. They are in one small corner of Hagley Park and could be girl scouts / boy guides / woodfolk / whoever. I only saw about a dozen people, but I guess there must be 20-30 of them…
When I looked at the wee encampment what struck me was the dichotomy between the reality (a few tents and alternatively-looking folk) and the grandiose title “Occupy Christchurch”. The authorities don’t feel at all threatened by it – there were no cops in sight. (Although given the levels of paranoia in some parts of the state apparatus, as revealed by the Urewera case, I wouldn’t be surprised if there wasn’t an undercover spook somewhere there).
I mean there might be various criticisms that could be made of the Occupy Wall Street people, but they are actually occupying Wall St (or trying to) as far as I know. Everyone can understand the point of that protest, regardless of what disagreements there might be about it. But “Occupy a wee corner of Hagley Park” – I mean, what’s the point?
With the earthquakes and the CBD still being closed, the capital properties of the local bourgeoisie are rather spread out and there isn’t really an obvious target here that equates to Wall Street – but a corner of South Hagley Park still seems pretty naff! It seems to be not really about promoting any effective form of struggle; rather about doing something that makes the protesters feel good.
I got politically active when I was 14 and I can kind of imagine that I might’ve got a bit excited about living in a tent in Hagley Park for a few days back then…but no-one is pointing out that this is not occupying Christchurch or posing any political questions, but is just a few people camping out.
Dunedin
This report is compiled from a number of emails I received about the events which I’ve paraphrased plus my own reflections from my brief visit on Monday.
Colin Clarke
The beginning of the ‘Occupy Dunedin’ protest was marked by a eulogy to the recently deceased capitalist Alan Hubbard who the IRD were attempting to prosecute for a variety of dubious offences. The speaker saw him as a bulwark against the bankers and someone who had helped out his local area. In many ways, this speech summed up the political confusion of the occupation. On the Saturday, many different political groups had an input, from the international Socialist Orgnisation who some see as trying to dominate proceedings, to others who were only there to attempt some electioneering.
The occupation is taking place right in the centre of the city, the Octagon, in a small space that is now almost completely covered by tents. The prime location of the site is such that it is hard for anyone to ignore and indeed, the Mayor, Dave Cull, and the CEO of the Council, Paul Orders visited together. Cull’s offer for people from the occupation to address a council meeting caused quite a bit of discussion between those who were in favour of the idea and those who saw it as in opposition to the politics of the protest. In the end, a delegation attended the council meeting on Wednesday evening.
Occupy Dunedin at the council.
When I visited on Monday afternoon, there were small groups sat around talking but I was struck by the fact that no-one came up to me to tell about the occupation or ask to me what I thought about it. This didn’t seem very inviting, especially for a protest that is supposed to be involving the majority of people against the 1%. Luckily, I met a few people who I knew and was able to talk about the occupation with them.
While the political ideas of those occupying are very diverse and full of contradictions, the fact that even for a short space of time, there is a prominent space for people to discuss politics could be a positive point. However, it’s important to not go overboard about the potential of this essentially small gathering of activists. At the moment, it is basically a talking shop but it would be good if the energy and idealism of those involved could lay a solid basis for organising in Dunedin in the future.
Oct 20 2011 10:46
Capetown - video from zeitgeist
Oct 20 2011 16:05
Wolfram Siener, who is according to the media the best-known public figure of the Occupy movement in Germany is a fan of Zeitgeist-crap and of the "theories" of Bruce Lipton
Oct 21 2011 01:14
EGADS wrote:
CRUD wrote:
EGADS wrote:
the technocrat weirdos
I wonder what "socialist" forum online has given them a huge platform to spread their silly ideas?
To be honest, RevLeft would still be a pile of shit even without any technocrat mods, considering how it's infested with die-hard trots and tankies. Heck, one of the first threads I read there was one about whether "Stalin was right" and half the twats were justifying what he did.
I think the Stalinists on that site are trolls but still, it's supposedly the no 1 socialist site online and a great deal of the mods are the Technocracy/Zeitgeist kids who know fuck all of socialism. The dumb asses that run that site aren't doing any of us any favors by allowing that shit to fly. That's what it is, shit. It's not as bad as any free market capitalist or fascist theory but only serves to confuse people as to how to get rid of capitalism (some of the early Technocrats do in fact look like some sort of fascists and they do in fact seek to put a minority in control of the means of production so at the least they're advocating the continuation of hierarchical society). They have some points any socialist would agree with but the the core message is counterrevolutionary even if well meaning.
In the end everyone (average person on the street) is just going to be confused with all these various "solutions" floating around. In comes the same old same old to save the day.....vote Obama in 2012.
Can comment on articles and discussions
OK as usual, my dry (perhaps shite) sarcasm has not translated well over the internet. I know what these people mean when they say corporate/crony (what ever) capitalism. My point is capitalism is capitalism, in any of its formulations, its exploitative dogshite.