Protests in Ukraine

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subprole's picture
subprole
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Jun 4 2014 11:19
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The main flag carried by workers then was the national flag.

And this was something "good" I suppose?

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National flags were also frequently present during the recent riots in Brazil, in which anarchists took part

The demonstrations, occupations, riots etc. in countries like Brazil, Turkey or Bosnia (where nationalism was virtually absent) and certainly the 1956 uprising in Hungary can under no circumstances be compared to the ultra-reactionary EUromaidan "movement" and also not to this specific event in Kharkov. The whole context is totally different, so your comparisions are irrelevant and more than ridiculous. The participation during this event in Kharkov is at least a further proof of the facts that AWU/ACT are far from equidistant towards the main rival nationalisms in Ukraine and in hypocritical complicity with the (left/liberal-democratic) segments of EUromaidan.

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are you saying that you would have "hospitalised" them?

No, I said in Greece (for example) people like these would have been into serious trouble if they would have dared to carry their nationalist propaganda physically "close enough" to anarchists.

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Steven.
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Jun 4 2014 09:15
subprole wrote:
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The main flag carried by workers then was the national flag.

And this was something "good" I suppose?

Of course not, why would you think that? I thought my point was quite clear. If it wasn't my point was this: anarchists being near people with national flags without "hospitalising" them is not inherently problematic (even leaving aside the macho bullshit).

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Quote:
National flags were also frequently present during the recent riots in Brazil, in which anarchists took part

The demonstrations, occupations, riots etc. in countries like Brazil, Turkey or Bosnia (where nationalism was virtually absent)

amazing!

If you really think there was no nationalism on display during occupy Gezi, then I think you are basically undermining the appearance of your understanding of international events. And as for Brazil, you are also completely wrong. The far right was active in those demonstrations, and as they were against a left-wing government, some of the institutional left tried to conjure up the "fascist bogeyman" to mobilise support for the government (like here). The same as some did with Ukraine (not to say I think that Euromaidan and the Brazilian movement are comparable, as importantly the latter made working class demands, whereas the former did not).

Quote:
and certainly the 1956 uprising in Hungary can under no circumstances be compared to the ultra-reactionary EUromaidan "movement" and also not to this specific event in Kharkov. The whole context is totally different, so your comparisions are irrelevant and more than ridiculous.

No, I said in Greece (for example) people like these would have been into serious trouble if they would have dared to carry their nationalist propaganda physically "close enough" to anarchists.

good point: the whole context is totally different, so the comparison is are irrelevant and more than ridiculous. Except this was kind of my point: that you can't compare Ukraine to Greece and criticise people on this basis, as the contexts of both are completely different.

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Jun 4 2014 11:21
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If you really think there was no nationalism on display during occupy Gezi, then I think you are basically undermining the appearance of your understanding of international events.

The parenthesis about the absence of nationalism refered to Bosnia and not Turkey or Brazil (that is why it was set behind Bosnia).

Quote:
anarchists being near people with national flags

It also depends in what kind of demonstration, gathering or whatever they participate. That's why I mentioned it is depending on the whole context. If it is exclusively nationalist (like EUromaidan) it cannot be compared to Bosnia etc.. Besides the movements in Turkey and Brazil are inter-class movements so one should not expect to much.

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that you can't compare Ukraine to Greece

I already said Greece cannot be compared to Ukraine: anarchists there would never collaborate with some "EuroSyntagma" (as AWU-ACT does at EUromaidan) and try to "convince" neo-Greek nationalists and other idiotic petty bourgeois civilians.

baboon
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Jun 4 2014 12:17

Anarchistsolidarity above makes out that there is only one report of US special forces at work in Ukraine whereas there are two plus a reference to the German intelligence agency which also provided this information. I can't give Anarchistsolidarity the "concrete proof" that he or she requires. If it isn't clear to anarchistsolidarity that US (plus Israeli and other) forces are at work in Ukraine then there's little more I can say. But anarchistsolidarity shows an extreme naivity. The nuimber of newspaper reports referring to a "thing" doesn't make the "thing" a fact. For examle I could show anarchistsoldiarity 30 or more current media reports from imeccable sources that say that there is a "recovery" in the British economy. The media generally reflects the national intgerest of the ruliing class and as far as the war in Ukraine goes we (in Britain) are getting a particular one-sided view.

Steven asks me above "Why on earth are you singling out Jews and Israel here?" Don't you think it significant for developments in imperialism that forces from Israel are at work in Ukraine? Don't you think it curious that a number of ex-IDF soldiers were active in military units during the original Kiev portests? And I object to your nasty little slur Steven that I am "singling out Jews" (post 276). I got the same sort of racist shit from the "democratic revolutionaries" of Tahrir-ICN who told me that as a westerner criticising the actions of Arab nations, I was a racist.

I agree with subprole that Turkey, Brazil and Bosnia were of an entirely different weight - a fundamental class differece - to the natioanlist and imperialist weight that existed in the Kiev protests right from the very beginning and which from the outset was expressed in the support for a democratic Ukraine, support for one side in an imperialist war by the group AWU.

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Jun 4 2014 13:51
baboon wrote:
Steven asks me above "Why on earth are you singling out Jews and Israel here?" Don't you think it significant for developments in imperialism that forces from Israel are at work in Ukraine? Don't you think it curious that a number of ex-IDF soldiers were active in military units during the original Kiev portests?

not really, no. "Forces" from loads of states all over the world are "at work" in nearly every other country in the world, whether lobbyists, diplomats, consultants, NGOs, government departments, etc, forwarding the interests of capital in their home countries. Israel doesn't do so more than anyone else of a similar size/wealth.

As for ex-servicemen from Israel being involved, you'll also get ex-soldiers from various countries involved in all sorts of protest movements, like the Occupy movement, for example, or the anti-war movement. That doesn't mean anything in itself either.

Quote:
And I object to your nasty little slur Steven that I am "singling out Jews" (post 276). I got the same sort of racist shit from the "democratic revolutionaries" of Tahrir-ICN who told me that as a westerner criticising the actions of Arab nations, I was a racist.

okay well I see you're unhappy about it. If you go pick out a bunch of NGOs and governments which aren't Jewish/Israeli and are also active in the Ukraine then you can have some balance.

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Jun 4 2014 16:00
baboon wrote:
I thought that one interesting component of the situation in Ukraine is that the weak US-backed Kiev regime appears to be using Israeli forces in the east. Ocelot asked for some clarification on this and I gave it.

No you didn't. When I asked for sources that Israeli agents were involved not in the extraction of Jews from threatening situations (as they say they are) but in actually supporting the Kievan war-effort you gave me some flannel about mysteriously disappearing reports from "the Guardian, etc.". Then the following references:

baboon wrote:
Wordpress.com, 26.2.14: "Ukrainian neo-nazis meet with the Israeli ambassador"; AJC (Global Jewish Advocacy) "Delegation meets with PM in Kiev" (also meets with security boss, Foreign MInistry and the US ambassador in Ukraine" and "Jewish Daily Forward of March 7, "Israeli Envoy Meets with Ukrainian 'anti-Semite' Dmitry Yarosh"

The first one appears to be a Greek nazi blog. [which I am not about to link - fuck that]. The second one is a google null return. The third is at least locateable and not nazi - so link here [http://forward.com/articles/194014/israel-envoy-meets-with-ukraine-anti-semite-dmitry/] But it is basically the news that is contained in the headline. I.e. that the Israeli Envoy met with Yarosh - who's a known fascist and antisemite (this is basically the same content that the Greek nazi is all in a lather about). Of the organisation of Israeli military support for Kiev regime troops, absolutely nothing.

baboon wrote:
I don't for one moment think that an Israeli "NGO", on the ground in eastern Ukraine wouldn't comprise of Israeli special forces. And it is clear that senior Israeli officials have met with security elements of the US-backed Kiev regime.

Well given that they're operating in a war-zone with heavily armed antisemites and neo-nazis on both sides, sure, if I was the Jewish Agency, I'd only send my most militarily competent operatives as well. This is the land that invented the pogrom, after all. But again, what does this have to do with providing evidence that the Israelis are there to support the Kievan war effort, rather than doing what they have openly said they are trying to do - extract Jews in vulnerable situations.

You get very huffy about Steven asking you why you are singling out the Israeli agency, and yet you seem to think you have presented evidence and/or a logical argument for why the Israelis are now being used by the Kiev regime as part of their military arsenal. Frankly your "but of course, if they're there they must be" argument is at the level of conspiracy theoretical non sequiteur.

Finally, here is the link for another one of your references, which is interesting enough (as far as it goes, which is not as far as some people appear to think - you do know that Odessa and Kiev are the main cities of the historic Pale of Settlement right?)

Haaretz: The ex-Israeli soldier who led a Kiev fighting unit

But as for referencing 9/11 truther and Galloway-style "any enemy of the US is a friend of mine" conspiraloon Michel Chossudovsky, you really need to pay more attention to your sources, Greek nazis included.

anarchistsolidarity
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Jun 4 2014 18:08

Thank you for your patronizing reply baboon. Still no proof though apart from "German intelligence sources" mentioned here or there.

baboon
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Jun 5 2014 16:48

Don't mention it as.

I'll keep this short because I'm away on holiday - work actually but a holiday.

I know Steven that every nation state has its own forces for imperialism and Israel is certainly no exception. The resaons why I mentioned the activities in Ukraiine is because that is what this thread is about. But you know that.

Ocelot agrees that Israeli forces are present in Ukraine. Ocelot says that they are there to protect pieople. Now humanitarian intervention, protecting our citizens, saving the lives of civilians, where have I heard that shit spouted before over the last many decades?

The situation in Ukraine is definitely dangerous for the working class throughout Europe in the longer term but specifically now for the population of Ukraine the danger of nationalism and democracy is there to overwhelm any actions of the proletariat. Centrifugal tendencies are being strengthened as the crisis spills to the Baltic States, and Abkazia on the Russian side for example. The nationalist movement that began in Kiev was the anti-thesis of the movements of Turkey, Bosnia and Brazil for example, all of which had a relatively strong proletarian content. The content of yet another Ukrainain "revolution" was rotton from the off.

Guerre de Classe
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Jun 5 2014 16:51

Some quotes from Observer Ukraine’s article Petro Poroshenko: the Chocolate King walks onto a sticky wicket:

Quote:
After his election to the presidency in 2010 Viktor Yanukovych had silenced the PR’s nationalist wing by co-opting its leaders into the party’s patronage and power sharing networks in government. But upon his ejection from Kyiv Russian nationalism was needed to spur a whole set of initiatives – People’s Fronts, anti-Maidan rallies, self defense militias. Their declared common aim was to protect Russian speakers from Ukrainian “fascists and banderites”, but their real aim was to prevent the spread of the Maidan movement into the east and its possible transformation into an-anti-bourgeois movement that could threaten the oligarchs’ property and power in their eastern industrial heartland. (Observer Ukraine’s emphasis)
(...)
The separatist campaign has grown in three months and taken effective military control over many government buildings, police stations, state security buildings, weapons stores, transport arteries and communications facilities. It acquired an initial social base by recruiting to its ranks local lumpen elements, unemployed youth and criminal gangs who were given firearms and paid to man the block-posts on the roads.

However, this local source of recruits dried up. The separatists’ military commander, (...) recently complained publicly that local residents were coming to take arms from his stores, only to return home to use them to protect their own communities, rather than to serve in the separatists’ militias. (My own emphasis, GdC) He declared that his forces would start to recruit women. But locals have proved hard to recruit and the most recent reinforcements to the separatists’ fighting units are mercenaries coming over the border from Russia.

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Jun 5 2014 21:35
baboon wrote:
Ocelot agrees that Israeli forces are present in Ukraine. Ocelot says that they are there to protect pieople.

I did not say that. I said the Jewish Agency* have said that they are there to protect Jews (no doubt including family members of people who migrated to Israel from Ukraine in the 90s and 2000s) and that I see no reason to doubt that that task is one of the items on their jobsheet.

That they may be up to other stuff as well is entirely possible, and if anyone has any actual evidence that they are, I'm all ears. But I'm not going to let pass the usual conspiracy logic pass if there's no evidence behind it - which so far, there ain't.

----
* also I did not say "Israeli forces" - given all Israeli men ( other than refusniks, ovs) and a good number of women, are either ex-IDF or reservists, to frame that as "Israeli forces" is a bit like saying that anywhere Swiss tourists go means the presence of "Swiss forces" - given that all Swiss men are likewise in the army.

teh
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Jun 5 2014 23:38
Guerre de Classe wrote:
Some quotes from Observer Ukraine’s article Petro Poroshenko: the Chocolate King walks onto a sticky wicket:
Quote:
Their declared common aim was to protect Russian speakers from Ukrainian “fascists and banderites”, but their real aim was to prevent the spread of the Maidan movement into the east and its possible transformation into an-anti-bourgeois movement that could threaten the oligarchs’ property and power in their eastern industrial heartland. (Observer Ukraine’s emphasis)

Thats so pathetic. For anyone to fear that "Maidan"s "spread" would threaten "the oligarchs property and power" in the Southeast it would have to challenge it even in the most rudimentary way in the rest of the country. So "the oligarchs" felt so threatened by "Maidan" (because it could lead X which "could' lead to Y, and not B and D ) that they organized it and supported it and spoke out against secession from Ukraine, that would break them off from the political center in Kiev. But in reality (hidden from their public) they were behind the secession insurrection, they just forgot to organize it where most of their "property and power" is (and "fascists and banderites" are in quotations because these groups, if they even exist, are doing the dirty work the Maidan leftists shy away from; so why disparage them, they do no harm).

This is the literal mirror image of what anti-maidan has been writing for months http://links.org.au/node/3838 . And in the same vein "local lumpen elements, unemployed youth and criminal gangs who were given firearms and paid to man the block-posts on the roads" is a perfect way to describe the Maidan movement and its left factions from its inception in the department of state. And equally as Observer Ukraine's civilization project is faced with indifference and contempt from Western Ukrainians, who have proved hard to recruit (and not to mention Southern Ukrainians), "the most recent reinforcements to the separatists’[(separatism from Russia)] fighting units are mercenaries coming over the border from" the EU.
The conflict mirrors ever geater the destruction of Yugoslavia by Germany and the US and the internal constituent parts, and yet these leftist cretins have nothing to say besides that their opponents are secretly yearning to join the nationalist project that directs its animosity towards them and that their own financial backers are actually the financial backers of the enemy. You couldn't make this shit up. And it gets more ridiculous with every new massacre and call in Kiev to ban opposition parties. And of course Ukraine is the model and future for the rest of "europe." To think that this left existed before the conflict and waiting for just this bloodbath and financial plunder in order to celebrate it as the new dawn, is just eerie.

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Jun 9 2014 10:51

Ukraine’s Crisis – Local Players and Imperialist Games

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Jun 17 2014 19:04

presented for information purposes:

Stop the War in the Ukraine!

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Stop the War in the Ukraine!

Antiwar Appeal of Left Forces in Russia, Ukraine and Belarus

On June 7-8 a conference of antiwar left forces from Russia, Ukraine and Belarus was held in Minsk. Its purpose was to strengthen the unity of internationalists of the three countries in the fight against the rampant violence, nationalist hysteria and repressions on both sides of the Ukrainian-Russian border. Below is text of the conference's declaration. We invite others to sign it. Translated by David Mandel.

We, participants of the organizational meeting of left and Marxist organizations and groups from Belarus, Russia, Ukraine, consider it our primary task to end the civil war in Ukraine. This military conflict that followed the victory of neoliberal and nationalist forces in Kiev's "Euromaidan" has claimed hundreds of lives and contributed to an unprecedented rise of chauvinism and xenophobia in Ukrainian and Russian societies. This war allows the ruling class to consolidate Ukrainian society around its political regime, distracting workers of both the west and east of the country from the fight for their social and political rights and opposes them to each other in the interests of the big bourgeoisie. The governments of Russia, the European Union and the United States exploit the civil war in Ukraine for the same purpose – the people dying in Donbas are pawns in their competition with each other.

We express our solidarity to all participants of the Ukrainian left-wing movements who fight against war, nationalism and xenophobia, and we consider it necessary to provide them all possible informational, political and material support. We oppose the pressure and repression on the part of all parties to the conflict. We oppose the pogroms, torture and kidnappings whose victims have been Ukrainian leftists, anti-fascists and other Ukrainian citizens, regardless of their political views. We also oppose political persecution in Crimea.

To stop the war – that is the main task of all left democratic movements, regardless of differences on various issues of the political agenda. To this end, we believe it is necessary to coordinate the efforts of all the opponents of the war in Ukraine and to form a mass and influential anti-war movement.

Our demands are:

We demand from the government of Ukraine immediately to put an end to the “anti-terrorist operation,” to its troops from the territory of the Donetsk and Lugansk regions and to conclude a cease-fire with the militia and of the Donetsk and Lugansk People's Republics.

We demand of the parties to the conflict to sign a peace agreement for the complete cessation of hostilities, the release of all political prisoners and prisoners of war, the disbandment of armed groups.

We urge the Ukrainian government to release forcibly mobilized soldiers whose families are now organizing protests in different regions of Ukraine.

We demand from Russia, the EU and the U.S. completely to stop interfering in the Ukrainian conflict and to cease to support the participants.

We demand an end to the chauvinist campaigns conducted by the Ukrainian and Russian media, which, using the language of hatred, are one of the main instigators of the war.

We demand the adoption of a new constitution of Ukraine, new elections to the institutions of state power in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions, the genuine real right to self-determination and self-government for Donbass and all regions of Ukraine.
We believe that an important condition for the formation of the anti-war movement is the informational and organizational consolidation of the left groups in the former Soviet space. To this end, we will initiate the establishment of a joint initiatives, the “Red Cross,” to help left activists and conscientious objectors from military service who have suffered, as well as an information network of leftist and Marxist groups of Belarus, Russia and Ukraine. •

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Jun 19 2014 12:21

presented for information purposes:
Donetsk: miners give Kiev 48h ultimatum “stop war or we will take up arms”

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Jun 22 2014 18:38

About the declaration of AWU "On the confrontation in Ukraine" (http://avtonomia.net/2014/06/17/vojna-vojne-zayavlenie-levyh-i-anarhistov-po-povodu-protivostoyaniya-v-ukraine-2/)

The KRAS, section of the International Workers Association in Russian region, appreciates the statement of Ukrainian "Autonomous Workers' Union" (AWU/AST) "On the confrontation in Ukraine" as a step in the right direction. Condemning both sides of the civil war, it differs in this point favorably from the previous position of AWU/AST representatives who refused in March to sign the statement of KRAS, internationalists of Ukraine, Russia and other countries (http://www.aitrus.info/node/3608)

The AWU/AST representatives motivated their disagreement with our Declaration by the very fact that we stand with the position of condemnation all warring parties, while they supported the "people" who gathered to "Evromaidan" and called for the protection of Ukrainian "homeland" from "Russian aggression". Some groups and members of the AWU/AST participated in the reactionary "Maidan" protests against the also reactionary Yanukovich government, without being disturbed even by an active role of the far-right groups in the "Maidan" coup. After the outbreak of armed conflict in the east of Ukraine, some active members of AWU/AST actually supported the idea of armed suppression of "Antimaidan" by the new Kiev authorities.

A new declaration of the AWU/AST looks more balanced and contains no sympathy for punitive operations of the Kiev authorities in the East of the country. Nevertheless, it is full of contradictions, in our opinion. So, it condemned first of all the separatist coup in eastern Ukraine ("Antimaidan"), and only then the Kiev government, although the "Antimaidan" was a reaction to the earlier "Maidan" coup. Moreover, the statement of AWU/AST contained again praise for "Maidan", which allegedly prevented the curtailing of rights and freedoms, while in fact the "Maidan" coup a opened the way for the adoption of new reactionary laws (including the "austerity" regime imposed by the EU and the IMF) and for the militarization of society, it made largely the hands free for the terror of the ultra-right groups and unleashed a spiral of confrontation, which ultimately led to the current outbreak of the Civil War. In the spirit of the official mode of Kiev war propaganda, the statement asserted that Antimaidan is just a manifestation of aggression of "Putin and his satellites", although most of the population in eastern Ukraine has repeatedly spoken out in the past against the political forces which organized the "Maidan" coup. The authors of the statement warn against the emergence of Ukrainian "Putins" as if regime of billionaire and oligarch Poroshenko is somewhat better than the Kremlin oligarchy. Finally, the AWU/AST condemns expansionist actions of the Russian state, but not one word mentioned inflammatory actions of its equally imperialist rivals from NATO. There is no mention of the need to cease hostilities and stop the death of workers under the bullets and shells of punitive forces of “anti-terrorist operation”. The statement completely ignores the catastrophic humanitarian situation in eastern Ukraine, and blames for this tragedy exclusively the separatists and "agents" of Russia.

We do not feel the slightest sympathy for the regimes established by separatists in Donetsk and Luhansk, as in the past time we did not have any sympathy f.ex. for the nationalist separatist regime in Chechnya. But then and now, this don`t hinder us to condemn the war and to call for a cessation of hostilities and the withdrawal of military troops, paramilitaries, mercenaries or “volunteer” from all sides from the conflict zone.

For us, both camps in the confrontation are equally conservative and nationalist, and any significant difference between them is not visible: neither in social and economic area, nor in domestic or foreign policy. Neither submission to the European Union, nor the submission to the Russian oligarchy can solve the problems of the working people of Ukraine. As before, we emphasize that the victory of one or another group of the bourgeoisie and the national-conservative reaction may lead only to social disaster for workers in the country.

We remain convinced that the workers have no homeland to defend. We equally condemn Maidan and Antimaidan; Kiev and Donetsk; Russia and NATO. We do not believe that a right side can exist in the struggle for power, influence or control over the territories between bourgeois cliques. In situations where the revolutionary internationalists do not have enough force to intervene and to crush both rival gangs, the most urgent task is to conduct an anti-war agitation among the workers so that they do not engage in military or paramilitary forces of Kiev, Donetsk or Luhansk regimes but instead remember their class interest and fight for their basic socio-economic needs: improving the living and working conditions and cancellation of imposed policy of "austerity".

Our slogans remain the same:

WAR ON WAR!
NO WAR BUT THE CLASS WAR!
NOT A SINGLE DROP A BLOOD FOR THE “NATION”!
http://www.aitrus.info/node/3818

S2W
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Jun 23 2014 11:16
subprole wrote:
No, I said in Greece (for example) people like these would have been into serious trouble if they would have dared to carry their nationalist propaganda physically "close enough" to anarchists.

Seems to me you haven't been in Greece for awhile. Since maybe 2009 or 2010 there have been plenty of Greek flags in major demonstrations.

S2W
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Jun 23 2014 11:18
Steven. wrote:
could someone post a translation of that to libcom, if it's worthwhile?

It is worthwile, but no time to translate, sorry.

S2W
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Jun 23 2014 11:35
subprole wrote:
Quote:
The Ukrainian state is attacking and treats the eastern provinces in the most brutal way, while inside the west and center of Ukraine is prevailing bourgeois normality(more or less…).
Why is that? Why also the Ukrainian state characterizes the eastern provinces as “terrorists” (sic)?

This is ridiculous nationalist stuff, as it confuses geographic entities with subjects. There is no "eastern provinces" being attacked, but separatists fighters supported by some 12% of the population. Of course plenty of civilians will be slaughtered the sametime, and we should oppose this (and the war in general), but it is possible to do that without ridiculous nationalist analysis.

S2W
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Jun 23 2014 11:34

I expect AST members to discuss the first paragraph, whereas I will comment parts of your reply which refer to contents of the current statement and not claimed (but unsubstantiated) claims on commentaries of AST members.

Foristaruso wrote:
A new declaration of the AWU/AST looks more balanced and contains no sympathy for punitive operations of the Kiev authorities in the East of the country. Nevertheless, it is full of contradictions, in our opinion. So, it condemned first of all the separatist coup in eastern Ukraine ("Antimaidan"), and only then the Kiev government, although the "Antimaidan" was a reaction to the earlier "Maidan" coup.

The order of the topics is totally irrelevant. More space is sacrificed for criticism of the Kiev government than to criticism of the separatists. The fact that you are even making this a topic is ridiculous.

Coup d'etat is an event in which part of the ruling class just pushes aside another part, without any mass involvement. Revolution is a regime change with a mass involvement - not necessarily progressive, it may also be a bourgeois one.

I consider February events in Kiev as something between coup and revolution, both elements were present. However, if you claim these events as a mere "coup", you deny there was any mass involvement whatsoever. This is denial of the reality, and close to conspiracy theories of the people like Borotba organisation and other European stalinists.

Foristaruso wrote:
Moreover, the statement of AWU/AST contained again praise for "Maidan", which allegedly prevented the curtailing of rights and freedoms, while in fact the "Maidan" coup a opened the way for the adoption of new reactionary laws (including the "austerity" regime imposed by the EU and the IMF) and for the militarization of society, it made largely the hands free for the terror of the ultra-right groups and unleashed a spiral of confrontation, which ultimately led to the current outbreak of the Civil War.

Do you really believe the new reactionary laws would not have been adopted with the Yanukovich regime as well? That is a rather naive belief.

Issue of militarization is dealt in the resolution. As for the "terror of ultra-right groups", this is wildly exaggerated in Russian media and is obviously not the reason of the current spiral of confrontation. The "Banderovists threat" is rather a manipulative scare crow, which apparently has had an effect to you as well.

Foristaruso wrote:
In the spirit of the official mode of Kiev war propaganda, the statement asserted that Antimaidan is just a manifestation of aggression of "Putin and his satellites", although most of the population in eastern Ukraine has repeatedly spoken out in the past against the political forces which organized the "Maidan" coup.

Where and when has "most of the population" spoken? "Most of the population" is rather passive but against both sides.

Foristaruso wrote:
The authors of the statement warn against the emergence of Ukrainian "Putins" as if regime of billionaire and oligarch Poroshenko is somewhat better than the Kremlin oligarchy.

This is a straw man argument. There is plenty of criticism against Kiev regime in the statement.

Foristaruso wrote:
Finally, the AWU/AST condemns expansionist actions of the Russian state, but not one word mentioned inflammatory actions of its equally imperialist rivals from NATO.

Where, in Libya? Or Afghanistan? That is rather off topic. Or do you claim that Maidan was a NATO conspiracy?

Foristaruso wrote:
There is no mention of the need to cease hostilities and stop the death of workers under the bullets and shells of punitive forces of “anti-terrorist operation”. The statement completely ignores the catastrophic humanitarian situation in eastern Ukraine, and blames for this tragedy exclusively the separatists and "agents" of Russia.

Another straw-man argument. There is plenty of criticism of the both sides in the statement, and it is obvious that it is against the war as a whole.

Foristaruso wrote:
We do not feel the slightest sympathy for the regimes established by separatists in Donetsk and Luhansk, as in the past time we did not have any sympathy f.ex. for the nationalist separatist regime in Chechnya. But then and now, this don`t hinder us to condemn the war and to call for a cessation of hostilities and the withdrawal of military troops, paramilitaries, mercenaries or “volunteer” from all sides from the conflict zone.

What do you consider the conflict zone? To me it seems like whole of Ukraine is a conflict zone. And perhaps Russia as well. Obviously you may call for withdrawal of any bourgeois armies from the planet, but that is pretty much the same thing as calling for a workers' revolution. A necessary call, but not any sort of "immediate solution" you are apparently asking for.

Foristaruso wrote:
For us, both camps in the confrontation are equally conservative and nationalist, and any significant difference between them is not visible: neither in social and economic area, nor in domestic or foreign policy.

There are huge differences, which however are not a reason to pick sides.

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Jun 23 2014 12:43

To S2W:

1) Revolution supposes not only the change of ruler but also progressive social and economic changes. There are not such things. So it is ridiculous or reactionary to call Maidan "revolution". Although it was a movement with participation of "masses" sometimes, these "masses" are not obviously progressive. There were "masses" also in the NSDAP or in Ruanda genocide. And the "masses" for EU, as this time

2) Maidan was not a NATO conspiracy, of course. But NATO clearly interfered to forbid Yanukovich to extrude protesters. Unlike the case of Erdogan repression in Turkey f.ex.

3) Immediate solution is the stop of hostilities and not the victory of one side

4) As to reactionary laws or activities of new Kiev government, there are very much, and not only for violent things but also for dissident opinion (http://english.cntv.cn/2014/04/08/ARTI1396964142829309.shtml; http://www.rbc.ua/rus/news/politics/sbu-vozbudila-delo-protiv-polzovatelya-facebook-za-prizyvy-19062014184000 - about punishment of Internet comments; http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/turchynov-law-enforcers-studying-political-parties-involvement-in-supporting-separatists-in-ukraine-347442.html; http://khpg.org/en/index.php?id=1403182147; etc.) It is not better than Yanukovich laws

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Jun 23 2014 13:44
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Seems to me you haven't been in Greece for awhile. Since maybe 2009 or 2010 there have been plenty of Greek flags in major demonstrations.

This is not related to what I exactly said in any way. So this is manipulation by S2W.

Quote:
This is ridiculous nationalist stuff, as it confuses geographic entities with subjects. There is no "eastern provinces" being attacked, but separatists fighters supported by some 12% of the population. Of course plenty of civilians will be slaughtered the sametime, and we should oppose this (and the war in general), but it is possible to do that without ridiculous nationalist analysis.

In S2W's irrelevant opinion this excellent analysis is nationalist. Anyone able to read knows this is more than idiotic. Here the whole text again: http://aruthlesscritiqueagainsteverythingexisting1.wordpress.com/2014/05/15/notes-on-the-fascist-state-of-ukraine-and-many-others/

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Jun 27 2014 10:09
subprole wrote:
This is not related to what I exactly said in any way. So this is manipulation by S2W.

You claimed Greek anarchists have managed to keep Greek flags out of the demonstrations in Greece. This has not been the case for years. Greek social protest is about as plagued by nationalism as in any other place.

subprole wrote:

In S2W's irrelevant opinion this excellent analysis is nationalist. Anyone able to read knows this is more than idiotic.

Obviously you do not have any argument against me.

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Jun 27 2014 09:45
Foristaruso wrote:
To S2W:

It gets a bit complicated to dscuss in 2 threads in the same time. I'll answer in the thread about AST resoluton here: http://libcom.org/news/war-against-war-statement-leftists-anarchists-confrontation-ukraine-19062014

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Jun 27 2014 10:26

Support Crimean anarchist Aleksandr Kolchenko, detained on terror charges!

http://libcom.org/news/support-crimean-anarchist-aleksandr-kolchenko-detained-terror-charges-27062014

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Jun 27 2014 10:43

Statement of the Kharkiv Autonomous Workers Union members about creation of social and cultural center

http://libcom.org/news/statement-kharkiv-autonomous-workers-union-members-about-creation-social-cultural-center-27

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Jul 6 2014 00:44
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You claimed Greek anarchists have managed to keep Greek flags out of the demonstrations in Greece. This has not been the case for years. Greek social protest is about as plagued by nationalism as in any other place.

No, I did not and that is just your psychotic manipulation of what I exactly said and meant. Besides anarchists there have participated in general strikes and not in a (fundamentally) nationalist petite bourgeois "movement" for regime change like Euromaidan in Ukraine. The discussion is over.

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Jul 1 2014 16:31

http://libcom.org/library/ukraine-nothing-expect-europe-or-russia/

As we promised already a few weeks ago, here we finally publish the English translation of the OCL text, originally available in French on http://oclibertaire.free.fr/spip.php?article1506. Very interesting text especially because of its materialist and non-idealist method that analyzes the movement, its process and its dynamics, only after it tackles its weaknesses, its lacks, the illusions of its protagonists, their ideologies, nationalism, the influence of far right, etc.

The only reservation we would like to emphasize here concerns the fact that the text is on the one hand uncritical towards “revolutionary” unionism (although we understand that historically important sectors of the proletariat proclaimed this appellation) that is methodologically unable of being revolutionary just as parliamentarianism cannot.

And on the other hand it is uncritical towards “plenums” that developed as an answer from the dictatorship of democracy (no matter if it claims to be a parliamentary, “direct”, “workers” or another one) to the needs of our class at the time of the recent struggles in Bosnia-Herzegovina. These “plenums” have been so much criticized by many structures (local as well as international ones), which proclaim social revolution, “anarchism” or communism, to prevent anybody to rush again headlong into the trap of democratic myths. Good reading…

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Jul 2 2014 19:10

http://www.thenation.com/article/180466/silence-american-hawks-about-kievs-atrocities

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Jul 5 2014 21:11
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No, I did not and that is just your psychotic manipulation of what I exactly said and meant.

You claimed

Quote:
Any idiot with some national flag coming that close to an anarchist in Greece would immediately be sent to the next hospital without compromise.

But that is bullshit. In austerity protests national flags have been all around, also next to anarchists.

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Jul 5 2014 22:09
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In austerity protests national flags have been all around, also next to anarchists.

Even if this would be true it would be totally i r r e l e v a n t because Majdan was n o t an anti-austerity protest or general strike movement like in Greece with (mostly) working class composition but a neoliberal coup with an petite bourgeois opposition "progressive" as in Venezuela - and ironically intensifying the neoliberal project. Anarchists in Greece and probably almost anywhere else would under n o circumstances participate in reactionary "movements" like EU-Majdan where left-nationalists of AWU were parasiting among liberal democrats, neonazis etc.. As your previous comments clearly demonstrate you consciously try to manipulate the discussion by obfuscating the total difference between the concrete situations and movements in general. You are an idiotic fucking comedian and constantly repeating the same bullshit in robotic manner. Continue your monologue somewhere else or write another petion to the European parliament as the AWU arselickers did. Σκατά στα μουτρα σου!