UK European Union referendum

Submitted by Steven. on June 22, 2016

New thread for discussion of the EU referendum tomorrow. There was a previous thread here but that got derailed. So please do not resurrect the derail discussion. This thread is for continued discussion of the EU referendum and its ramifications.

Steven.

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Steven. on June 22, 2016

So, what do people think?

My main feeling on the whole thing is depression. Depressing that basically migration has become the issue, and the racist Leave campaign is dominating the agenda. And almost as depressing the number of "anarchists" and radicals supporting one side of the capitalist class over another. Usually accompanied with the same sort of denunciations which they themselves decry in others when it comes to bourgeois elections (namely that you should choose the least worst option, and that refusing to do so is not "pragmatic")

Schmoopie

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Schmoopie on June 22, 2016

In a fit of madness I decided yesterday that for only the second time in my life I would cast my vote in a British election. Thankfully, a young proletarian woman showed me the folly of my intentions. Thank fuck for that: without our principles we are nothing.

Scallywag

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Scallywag on June 22, 2016

I've avoided it like the plague, thank fuck uni finished up before the referendum and I don't have to be around annoying liberals arguing over it 24/7 :D

I think most people don't know what to make of it, feel really disgusted and alienated by the whole thing.

The leave side is horrific, but the remain side seems to be really middle class to me, naive and out of touch from the material concerns of working people whom they are really patronising towards.

D

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by D on June 22, 2016

I agree that the whole thing has been depressing. On a personal level the right to live in the country I live in is based on the UK being an eu country. I am thus worried about the consequences of a leave vote.

jef costello

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by jef costello on June 22, 2016

I almost cracked and asked for a postal ballot when they extended the deadline by a day. I'm in the same boat as D so I'm going to have to think about citizenship.

I think the whole campaign has been relentlessly negative, it encourages disengagement from the political process, they're offering us nothing, just trying to scare us into doing what they want.

Schmoopie

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Schmoopie on June 22, 2016

The leave side is horrific, but the remain side seems to be really middle class to me, naive and out of touch from the material concerns of working people whom they are really patronising towards.

You are describing the footsoldiers in this election. Who are the generals and what interests are they serving? My instinct is that the Brexit party is essentially the petit bourgeoisie and the Bremain party represent the grande bourgeoisie. As in all elections, the working class is not represented at all.

radicalgraffiti

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by radicalgraffiti on June 22, 2016

leaving the EU's has been a project for the far right and the most right wing section of the tories for decades, a leave vote or a close remain will empower them. I don't think over welling remain vote is likely, so i expect boarder controls to get harsher and an increase in racist violence

2 W

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by 2 W on June 22, 2016

I think the key thing for us is how do we respond, it's also difficult to know which way it will go cos I think the media thrives on a closely fought contest so the reality and facts that could help us prepare are at the moment being kept from us.

Either way the far right will get momentum from this confidence if there's a Brexit and a rallying call if people vote Bremain. It seems to have become a battle ground between the far right and those left and centre of capital. Right now it's not our fight but the winner will probably be the one that comes after us, or more than likely both of them.

I'd be interested to get people's thoughts on how we respond to Brexit or Bremain. Personally as I've been exiled in North America :( I've been quite inspired by indigenous resistance to colonialism. We're fighting over borders that were created out of elite European plunder....the legacy still continues today...this phoney debate is the remnants of that. This article touches on it a bit.

Don't agree with all of it and the Lexit - sounds a bit nationalist still in my mind

http://criticallegalthinking.com/2016/06/19/brexit-nostalgia-empire/

But feel like if we can counter attack the kicking we'll get tomorrow with dialogue, discussion and action around decolonising Europe and link that in with other countries whose proles are feeling the same we might be able to counter this race to the bottom. Whoever has the power to ask the questions can create the answers. The elite have created a squabble for we the rabble....if there's one thing it's taught me is not to hide our politics now....the mainstream left, centrists, right wingers and the fash have had a good olde ding dong, the answers they've come up with have been as shit as the questions they were given....our turn now. Real talk ....peoples.

Migrant solidarity.
The guts to reject England and Europe.
Visions of a post colonial Europe.
Tackling class snobbery within the white community.

and a big

F.ck....the lot of ya party.

This has been a negative campaign I think if we can counter attack with hopeful solutions that shift the conversation from the lesser of two evils to fuck these two evils....we'll be good. That's no easy task though.

Watching the two political sides Brexit and Bremain has been I agree throughly depressing, after tomorrow I think they'll both be coming for the rest of us. Which might not be a bad thing, get the feeling we're a bit out-resourced and numbered though....nowt new there though.

We rise.

2 W

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by 2 W on June 22, 2016

I think a resounding bremain vote will empower them too, this whole conversation has been a rallying call for bigotry and liberal capitalism.

We need a rallying call for something better....where's Geldoff and Bone when you need them ;)

2 W

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by 2 W on June 22, 2016

Bono sorry my bad.

Sharkfinn

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Sharkfinn on June 22, 2016

Brexit would potentially be a life changing event for EU migrants living in the UK, endangering the current status of loads of people there. It would also be a watershed moment for nationalist parties gaining ground (or for the most part already in power) in other EU countries. As a political backlash the right to free movement within EU would probably be renegotiated and internal border checks within EU brought back within couple of years. How are these not material conditions of working people?

Joseph Kay

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Joseph Kay on June 22, 2016

I voted remain (postal, I'm away). I don't think it's necessarily a queston of principle with yes/no referenda (depending on the stakes), so a consequentialist approach is fine. I mean I think either way things are getting worse, but as it's a de facto vote on open xenophobia that swayed me. Ofc Frontex are gonna keep killing migrants either way, so voting pales in comparison to practical solidarity [insert direct action boilerplate].

Craftwork

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Craftwork on June 22, 2016

This is how I voted:

On a side note, I hope to see some of you at Friday's migrant solidarity demo (and thanks for sharing it on the libcom FB page btw).

Look-out for a 22 year-old with a red scarf (or not, depending on the weather).

jef costello

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by jef costello on June 22, 2016

Joseph Kay

but as it's a de facto vote on open xenophobia that swayed me.

I kind of agree with you here and I've been back and forth on the issue, but you could also make a similar case for voting against Zac Goldsmith in the London Mayoral election (I didn't see much of the campaign but when the Tories are claiming their own candidate is too negative and racist then I take it as read that he is)

To be honest I feel a bit ashamed of not voting and also annoyed about feeling that.

Sharkfinn

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Sharkfinn on June 22, 2016

Sorry Jef, but if you feel ashamed about it why aren't you voting then? Sorry if I'm being forward with this but I'm just trying to understand what people think is the rationale for this heroic communist inactivity of not voting in this case?

2 W

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by 2 W on June 22, 2016

....but now that the squabble in the Cons club has spilled out onto the streets, before there was covert racism, now that there is overt racism, there is also the opportunity to confront it. How do we support those who wish to remain and have now been illegalised? Can we ramp up our pressure to open the borders? Could this be a rallying call away from electoral and voting responses? Can we have a people's referendum on Europe and England and can we start to leave both in solidarity with other nations. Can we hijack their shit like they hijacked ours?

The great exodus from capitalism....sorry trying to be positive :(

Steven.

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Steven. on June 22, 2016

radicalgraffiti

leaving the EU's has been a project for the far right and the most right wing section of the tories for decades, a leave vote or a close remain will empower them.

Leaving the EU has also been a project of the far left and the left-wing section of the Labour party for decades. That doesn't really mean much.
Sharkfinn

Brexit would potentially be a life changing event for EU migrants living in the UK, endangering the current status of loads of people there. It would also be a watershed moment for nationalist parties gaining ground (or for the most part already in power) in other EU countries. As a political backlash the right to free movement within EU would probably be renegotiated and internal border checks within EU brought back within couple of years. How are these not material conditions of working people?

On this, a couple of points. In terms of free movement, that is pure conjecture. And on this and in terms of nationalist parties, you could use this as a justification for voting for left-wing social democratic parties, or doing some sort of "anti-fascist" tactical voting in general elections. However we argue against this as being a false choice. The same is the case here.

I am really worried about EU migrants in the UK (including loads of my friends/family), and UK citizens living abroad (again including loads of my friends and family). However despite this doesn't justify me voting for a murderous, anti-immigrant, bureaucratic capitalist entity, the EU.

I'm also worried about EU-imposed austerity, neoliberalism and things like TTIP, which are clearly "material conditions of working people". However that doesn't mean I support voting to leave the EU: I support using direct action and solidarity to ameliorate things in all of these areas.

Scallywag

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Scallywag on June 22, 2016

Sharkfinn

Heroic communist inactivity of not voting

I don't think any anarchist has ever claimed that.

For me not voting in this case has nothing to do with 'sticking by my principles', it's because there not offering us anything, the whole thing has been so negative and alienating that like a lot of people I don't see the point in voting in it. I've seen leftists argue in favour of leaving and leftists argue in favour of staying, but I don't think either of them really knows what to make of it. None of them really know how things will play out whether we leave or stay and they have too many ifs and buts about it.

radicalgraffiti

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by radicalgraffiti on June 22, 2016

Steven.

radicalgraffiti

leaving the EU's has been a project for the far right and the most right wing section of the tories for decades, a leave vote or a close remain will empower them.

Leaving the EU has also been a project of the far left and the left-wing section of the Labour party for decades. That doesn't really mean much.

not in the same way, this referendum is the result of decades of propaganda against immigrates and the EU, it doesn't in anyway come from leftist antagonism to the EU, in fact i've literally never seen or heard a leftist advocate leaving the EU before this referendum

Steven.

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Steven. on June 22, 2016

radicalgraffiti

Steven.

radicalgraffiti

leaving the EU's has been a project for the far right and the most right wing section of the tories for decades, a leave vote or a close remain will empower them.

Leaving the EU has also been a project of the far left and the left-wing section of the Labour party for decades. That doesn't really mean much.

not in the same way, this referendum is the result of decades of propaganda against immigrates and the EU, it doesn't in anyway come from leftist antagonism to the EU, in fact i've literally never seen or heard a leftist advocate leaving the EU before this referendum

I don't disagree in terms of saying that this referendum has not happened because of the left, it has happened because of the Tory right. However the left has historically been a bigger opponent of European integration than the right. The Labour Party (especially the left-wing of it: see Tony Benn etc) were officially in favour of leaving up until 1983, when they changed policies under Kinnock.

That you haven't seen it doesn't mean it wasn't there

Sharkfinn

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Sharkfinn on June 22, 2016

In terms of free movement, that is pure conjecture.

Can you elaborate what you mean by this.

Scallywag

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Scallywag on June 22, 2016

Is there even a left case for leaving which isn't tarred by anti-immigration? All I've seen from left exiters is anti-immigration and socially conservative politics painted 'left' and 'working class'.

radicalgraffiti

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by radicalgraffiti on June 22, 2016

Scallywag

Is there even a left case for leaving which isn't tarred by anti-immigration? All I've seen from left exiters is anti-immigration and socially conservative politics painted 'left' and 'working class'.

Apparently the EU is capitalist

S. Artesian

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by S. Artesian on June 22, 2016

couple of things to keep in mind. Even MSF (Doctors Without Borders) "opted out" of the EU, returning the millions (e63million if I recall correctly) awarded by the EU. MSF stated it would not accept funding from a source which had imposed such a inhumane policy upon refugees. So those who think voting to "remain" is a vote for "solidarity" or a vote against xenophobia, should think again because remaining in the EU is remaining in a union that quite clearly is shredding all its high-sounding principles and enshrining xenophobia.

Secondly, if there was an actual social revolution in Britain, with a government of workers' councils, would you still want Britain to remain in the EU? Of course not. Would xenophobia wither and die overnight? Also of course not. So.... a) you have to separate the anti-confederacy European capitalist aspect from the xenophobia, by opposing the xenophobia, by linking exit to open borders for all workers and b) you can't do that by ceding that by "remaining" or remaining silent; by not opposing the EU in all its manifestations.

If you wouldn't want Britain to remain in the EU after a revolution how can you advocate for remaining in it prior to a revolution?

Those who vote to remain are voting for a confederacy of capitalists; it's just that simple. You can certainly oppose that and oppose the xenophobia at the same time. The approach should be, EU OUT, Migrants WELCOME

Steven.

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Steven. on June 22, 2016

S. Artesian

Those who vote to remain are voting for a confederacy of capitalists; it's just that simple. You can certainly oppose that and oppose the xenophobia at the same time. The approach should be, EU OUT, Migrants WELCOME

I know we had extended discussion on the other thread about this. But I think perhaps in the US it's not coming across how much this referendum is just being seen as a vote on immigration. Basically the entire public face of the Leave campaign is outright racism and hatred. So pretty much everyone I know (from apolitical friends to anarchists) is voting Remain to support migrants.

Anyway on this note, got a good contender for cunt of the day, with "red" Len McCluskey (who is prominent in the Remain campaign weirdly enough), slagging off EU migrant workers: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/20/len-mccluskey-unite-eu-referendum-migration-experiment-uk-workers-expense

radicalgraffiti

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by radicalgraffiti on June 22, 2016

S. Artesian

If you wouldn't want Britain to remain in the EU after a revolution how can you advocate for remaining in it prior to a revolution?

after a revolution we want wage labour to be abolished but right now, we want workers to get paid more, aren't we fucking hypocrites

S. Artesian

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by S. Artesian on June 22, 2016

Steven.

S. Artesian

Those who vote to remain are voting for a confederacy of capitalists; it's just that simple. You can certainly oppose that and oppose the xenophobia at the same time. The approach should be, EU OUT, Migrants WELCOME

I know we had extended discussion on the other thread about this. But I think perhaps in the US it's not coming across how much this referendum is just being seen as a vote on immigration. Basically the entire public face of the Leave campaign is outright racism and hatred. So pretty much everyone I know (from apolitical friends to anarchists) is voting Remain to support migrants.

Anyway on this note, got a good contender for cunt of the day, with "red" Len McCluskey (who is prominent in the Remain campaign weirdly enough), slagging off EU migrant workers: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/20/len-mccluskey-unite-eu-referendum-migration-experiment-uk-workers-expense

No, that has come across. But it's a myth to think that voting to remain is going to do a single thing to quell the outright racism and hatred. To argue that way is to just put another spin on the dead bottle of US politics-- "vote the less evil."

Suppose for example there was some movement in the US to dismantle the NAFTA accords; accords which have been pretty effective in accelerating the dispossession of Mexico's smaller rural producers and (along with the "war on drugs," and maquilladoras and other 'benefits' of modern capitalism) have just about brought Mexico to collapse.

Wouldn't Marxists be opposing NAFTA but welcoming migrants? Wouldn't we link our opposition to NAFTA to protection of migrant workers and abolition of the distinction between "legal" and "illegal" migrants? Demanding an end to deportations? An end to workplace raids? I think so. It's not an easy thing to do, given the racism that will accompany "End NAFTA," but there's no alternative to confronting that racism.

And there's no alternative to confronting the hypocrisy of the pro-EU or remain group; the "soft" racism that propels the EU's concern that Greece hasn't been aggressive enough in deporting refugees to Turkey. I mean if MSF can take a principled stand an "opt out," why can't the "left"?

potrokin

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by potrokin on June 22, 2016

I was all for abstaining until yesterday when I thought about it long and hard. Basically, not only am I voting against the racism and xenophobia of UKIP, Boris Johnson, Gove and the tabloid press, but also because austerity will be alot worse if Brexit happens. I've heard some anarchists say they will vote leave to create a more 'revolutionary' atmosphere but these are people's lives we are talking about and I'm not sure we should be looking at people as pawns in a chess game. We don't have a significant worker's movement anymore. Working class people, and people in general, will be worse off if Brexit happens, in so many ways. I will be voting remain, I don't like the EU, but being left alone with the British state will be worse, I don't expect my life to be easier or to improve, but atleast it has less chance of getting worse.

fingers malone

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by fingers malone on June 22, 2016

I've been in some ferocious arguments for several days with left wing people taking an anti migrant position. One of them is the secretary of my local trades council and someone I've known for twenty years. Him and loads of other people are saying that arguing for freedom of movement is assisting bosses in driving down wages and conditions, and a whole load of other really horrible stuff. There is a really worrying separation being made of 'working class' and 'immigrants' as if immigrants are not part of the working class. The whole thing is terrible.

S. Artesian

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by S. Artesian on June 22, 2016

radicalgraffiti

S. Artesian

If you wouldn't want Britain to remain in the EU after a revolution how can you advocate for remaining in it prior to a revolution?

after a revolution we want wage labour to be abolished but right now, we want workers to get paid more, aren't we fucking hypocrites

No, you're not a hypocrite. Just indistinguishable from a union bureaucrat, a Labor back-bencher, a Corbyn-ite, a Fabian, a social-democrat--- etc etc ad infinitum.

Oh wait, you're going to tell how you distinguish yourself from them because you don't limit your actions to simply the struggle for higher wages?

Very impressive. But somehow you can't find a way to distinguish yourself from Farage if you dare suggest workers should oppose the confederation of European capitalists? That's a pity. A failure of imagination, vision, or nerve, but not a reason to endorse abstentionism.

Serge Forward

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Serge Forward on June 22, 2016

A shower of shit on both sides. A bremain win will bolster the capitalist status quo but a brexit victory will bolster the far right faction of capital. Hmm... what to do tomorrow...

On the subject of leftist brexit people like McCluskey, the RMT, TUSC, SPEW and the CPB-Morning Star, their vision is on no fucker's agenda outside of their own political cliques. It's racism and anti immigration being touted night and day.

S. Artesian

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by S. Artesian on June 22, 2016

fingers malone

I've been in some ferocious arguments for several days with left wing people taking an anti migrant position. One of them is the secretary of my local trades council and someone I've known for twenty years. Him and loads of other people are saying that arguing for freedom of movement is assisting bosses in driving down wages and conditions, and a whole load of other really horrible stuff. There is a really worrying separation being made of 'working class' and 'immigrants' as if immigrants are not part of the working class. The whole thing is terrible.

Indeed it is. The sort of xenophobia is at the core in the creation of the "white working class" in US history. It's the single greatest obstacle to the development of class consciousness.

radicalgraffiti

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by radicalgraffiti on June 22, 2016

S. Artesian

radicalgraffiti

S. Artesian

If you wouldn't want Britain to remain in the EU after a revolution how can you advocate for remaining in it prior to a revolution?

after a revolution we want wage labour to be abolished but right now, we want workers to get paid more, aren't we fucking hypocrites

No, you're not a hypocrite. Just indistinguishable from a union bureaucrat, a Labor back-bencher, a Corbyn-ite, a Fabian, a social-democrat--- etc etc ad infinitum.

Oh wait, you're going to tell how you distinguish yourself from them because you don't limit your actions to simply the struggle for higher wages?

Very impressive. But somehow you can't find a way to distinguish yourself from Farage if you dare suggest workers should oppose the confederation of European capitalists? That's a pity. A failure of imagination, vision, or nerve, but not a reason to endorse abstentionism.

the material consequence of a leave vote right now will be an increase in racist violence, it doesn't matter what anyones personal reasons for the vote are thats what will happen.

2 W

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by 2 W on June 22, 2016

I think that will happen either way, this has hyped them up and given them momentum if they win they'll up the ante if they lose they'll up the ante.

The gloves are off for the far right now. Which is why I think we need to up the alternatives to fascism and capitalism quickly.

Leave both. Start something that matters,

S. Artesian

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by S. Artesian on June 22, 2016

the material consequence of a leave vote right now will be an increase in racist violence, it doesn't matter what anyones personal reasons for the vote are thats what will happen.

Pick the correct answer

A. "The material consequences of a vote against (Allende, Morales, Rousseff, Maduro) will be an increase in right wing violence."

B. "The material consequences of a vote to abolish the NAFTA accords will be an increase in in racist, anti-immigrant violence."

C. "The material consequences of a vote against TARP to bail out the US bourgeoisie will be a total collapse of the capitalist economy with massive unemployment and accelerating poverty with hundreds of thousands of children suffering physical deprivation.."

D. All of the above.

I pick D. You have no choice but to confront those material consequences.

Sharkfinn

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Sharkfinn on June 23, 2016

I'd actually like to hear what people think brexit would do to status of EU migrant in Britain?

The stuff about EU being an institution of neoliberalism or evil or whatever is true but its completely besides the point in this contex, since the vote isn't about the EU but Britain remaining in it. Its not like by voting for brexit or abstaining or whatever is going to take away the Fortress Europe, that's not realistically on the table. What would happen is it would change the status of many migrant workers in Britain. The long term effects in the EU would probably be changing the rules of Schengen treaty, not purely because of brexit but because of that and the strength of far right parties in Western Europe. No wait, its not just that. Like Fingers describes its not just the far right, the anti-migrant sentiment is really strong left and right. That's why this is so dangerous. Really heinous policies could actually have significant popular support. You may call that a conjecture but its my judgement on this. I don't see how its could turn any other way.

Brexit would't mean sovereignity or stop to neoliberalism, UK on its own is pretty much an unnecessary attachment to a tax haven known as the City of London. Outside the EU its labour laws and human rights are likely to get worse at a faster rate (not that they are the most progressive at this point anyway).

mikail firtinaci

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by mikail firtinaci on June 23, 2016

European Union is the organization that imprisoned Syrian proletarians escaping massacre to the prison-labor camp, i.e. Turkey.

A question: don't you think if the capacities of national bourgeois fractions in Europe for coordinated action weakens by a brexit that would strategically benefit the working class?

Steven.

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Steven. on June 23, 2016

S Artesian, the EU and NAFTA aren't directly comparable. Of course the free-trade element is about the same (indeed, that's the primary purpose of the existence of the EU), however the EU also includes freedom of movement within it, and strong protections of workers' rights and environmental protections etc.

If the NAFTA zone had something similar, and as a result there were millions of Latin American citizens in the US with the same rights as US citizens, who were then at risk of losing them getting deported, then the situation would be a lot less clear-cut. Also of course wealth disparity within the EU is less significant than in the NAFTA zone, so it is much less straightforwardly a way for the wealthier countries to outsource production to the poorer ones.

Steven.

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Steven. on June 23, 2016

radicalgraffiti

the material consequence of a leave vote right now will be an increase in racist violence, it doesn't matter what anyones personal reasons for the vote are thats what will happen.

Sorry, but again this is pure conjecture. Do you have any evidence whatsoever that this might be even slightly true?

The public mood has become more nationalist, on the right and left as fingers points out, and more racist because of the referendum, regardless of its outcome.

mikail firtinaci

European Union is the organization that imprisoned Syrian proletarians escaping massacre to the prison-labor camp, i.e. Turkey.

A question: don't you think if the capacities of national bourgeois fractions in Europe for coordinated action weakens by a brexit that would strategically benefit the working class?

Mikail, that is the same kind of logic that trots use to support national liberation movements. It is not a communist argument.

mikail firtinaci

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by mikail firtinaci on June 23, 2016

Steven,

I think the EU is a barbaric establishment that has nothing to be defended. Needless to say Britain is no less violent or anti-working class. So, I am not trying to put forward an argument for or against the Brexit or voting for either. Just trying to understand the meaning of the outcomes. The best thing I can conceive in the case of a possible disintegration of the EU is that it may weaken the European national states.

fingers malone

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by fingers malone on June 23, 2016

Steven.

radicalgraffiti

the material consequence of a leave vote right now will be an increase in racist violence, it doesn't matter what anyones personal reasons for the vote are thats what will happen.

Sorry, but again this is pure conjecture. Do you have any evidence whatsoever that this might be even slightly true?

The public mood has become more nationalist, on the right and left as fingers points out, and more racist because of the referendum, regardless of its outcome.

Well, the public mood becoming more nationalist because of the referendum is part of what makes me think that there will probably be an increase in racist violence if the referendum actually wins.

Look, everyone I know who is a migrant from Europe, including my friend who came as an asylum seeker years ago and has ILR, so you would think wouldn't be so directly affected, is upset and scared about the referendum, don't you think there's something bad happening? And fascists shooting people in the street, isn't that some kind of 'evidence'?

Serge Forward

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Serge Forward on June 23, 2016

To be fair Fingers, there's always been fascist violence such as people like Copeland. However, in the current nationalist frenzy, then yes, racism and anti-foreigner sentiment is heightened. How could it not be? The bosses meeja has repeatedly told us the main issue is immigration, immigration, immigration. Say it enough times and surprise surprise, immigration is the main issue. I suspect there will be a rise in racist attacks either way, but should Brexit win, then as their campaign seems to be based primarily on anti-immigrant rhetoric, then I expect it to lead to higher level of racist attacks than you'd get with Bremain. Just conjecture like.

mikail firtinaci

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by mikail firtinaci on June 23, 2016

don't you think there's something bad happening? And fascists shooting people in the street, isn't that some kind of 'evidence'?

I have never been to Britain, so I can not speak for the mood over there. However, my impression is that nationalism is rising everywhere. And contemporary nationalism does not look like a 30s type of nationalism which was attached to the state glossing over local cultural differences, but a micro, cultural-ethnic-religious nationalism that emphasizes small communities. 19th Century nationalism based on a secular citizenship is almost completely dead everywhere. And this new nationalism is crazier, more irrational and have the least perspective for a positive future.

In my humble view, this is not due merely to the weakening of bourgeois institutions like EU, which is in no way in antagonism with this trend, but due to a lack of certain clear political alternative to the existing system. I don't think that a universal, humanist vision that can truly improve the conditions of the immigrants can be defended without at the same time putting forward a program for a world without borders and visas.

Why are we so weak to do that? Why fascists and fundamentalists are so courageous and open but we communists are so hesitant and voiceless, to the degree that we are almost invisible to the public? I don't understand that. That is really upsetting, and for me this is more upsetting than this referendum and what it signify in terms of rising nationalism.

fingers malone

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by fingers malone on June 23, 2016

Mikail, yes I agree, there's bigger things going on than just this referendum, the rise in racism isn't all because of the referendum and is probably going to continue to get worse whichever way the vote goes. However what I was trying to say is that a Leave result, I believe, would mean a greater increase in racist violence as well as specific attacks on the rights of migrant workers.

mikail firtinaci

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by mikail firtinaci on June 23, 2016

a Leave result, I believe, would mean a greater increase in racist violence as well as specific attacks on the rights of migrant workers.

Do you mean that would encourage the fascists to be bolder?

Ed

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Ed on June 23, 2016

Just held my nose and voted Remain, though can't help but feel that the smell is actually coming from me.. :(

Agree with whoever said that right-wing violence is gonna be on the up regardless of the result. They've taken a shot of adrenaline from this referendum and turned anti-immigration into the central political argument that everyone has to pander to.

Also agree with Steven that both sides seem basically the same. Even on free movement, we've got some Remainers saying we might have to restrict free movement. I suppose where I felt that voting Remain was better than abstention/Leave victory is basically while people like Steven are right to point out material reasons why Leave may not be able to restrict immigration/free movement in the way they've promised, the risk they might do it (or something similar, like further restricting EU citizens' access to public services, benefits etc) is greater than the risk of the Remain campaign doing something they mostly haven't talked about doing (though they might).

As an aside, I went to a library today and saw a picket line outside it. There's a strike against the privatisation of the mobile library service. The library, however, was still open as it was a polling station for the referendum. If there's a more apt metaphor for today's politics, I'm not sure I can think of it..

fingers malone

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by fingers malone on June 23, 2016

mikail firtinaci

a Leave result, I believe, would mean a greater increase in racist violence as well as specific attacks on the rights of migrant workers.

Do you mean that would encourage the fascists to be bolder?

Basically yes, the fascists but also general anti migrant politics

Bambuľka kvantová

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Bambuľka kvantová on June 23, 2016

I am one of the east european immigrants to the UK and I found this bleak opinion by some lawyers.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/22/will-europeans-be-free-to-stay-in-the-uk-after-brexit

It sounds like more bullying, divisions among the class and easier deportations of east europeans for minor delicts. The fact that the EU/Cameron lets Syrians and other die at sea and in the camps doesn't mean that we should let take power for those who want to let Syrians die outside EU borders PLUS kick out part of the EU workers already in this country.

Steven, if you really do not want to add to EU migrant/refugee misery at the continent today, what's the problem of voting Remain? Is the most important that we, as commie or anarchist INDIVIDUALS, have our hands clean, while the whole politics around is dirty and messy?... Or is what matters more that we can intervene when necessary? My dad used to say: if you dig into mud, your hands get dirty!... Ignoring the mud is no solution in my opinion.

But while I think either Remain or Abstain are options worth discussing, I have no time for 'left-wing' Leave position. Even if all the left Leavers had their national Conference and came up with a big united Socialist alternative to the UK... so what? Today, there are only two types of vote, not three!
(It's not like tomorrow the prime minister will read the results and say, hang on, out of the Leave vote there was an X% of the 'Socialist case' vote, so we are gonna have a special Parliament debate on that!... :-))

mikail firtinaci

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by mikail firtinaci on June 23, 2016

Fingers; I see the point. Still, I feel the choice is between a EU regulated slavery, which means dumping the majority of migrants to buffer countries while exploiting the rest in a systematic way and, in case of a brexit, doing the same in a more decentralized manner. I doubt that the British state would ever need to resort street violence as its main tool to deal with the situation. That is the way the weaker states like Turkey behave.

Bambuľka kvantová

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Bambuľka kvantová on June 23, 2016

Spot on Fingers!
Mikail, whether this would weaken the national states should perhaps get a separate thread to discuss. But if we look at member states like Poland, Hungary or Slovakia, they are all very anti-Brussels but at the same time very strong national states. They expect more and more of the EU disintigration which will start a new era of the Nation states in Europe. (Far Right were going on about it for decades...) So I'd expect exactly this might happen. Of course this will not be smooth but chaotic, full of national disputes, ethnic conflicts, shootings at the borders etc... especially if the economic situation will get worse. So it may appear that some states will be more destabilized than now, but certainly not weaker when comes to the fiscal and armed repression!

Spikymike

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Spikymike on June 23, 2016

OK so time for some honesty on my part - I'm about to go and vote. I usually abstain and sometimes cast a 'protest' vote in other elections. All the arguments on libcom and the particularly ultra-nationalist and often outright racist stuff coming from the 'Out' campaign supported by most of the capitalist media (the specific atmosphere in the UK referred to by Steven in his post No 26 for instance) has persuaded me that I could not vote for 'Brexit', but looking at the issue beyond the confines of the UK political campaign (as alluded to by mikail and S.A. for instance) I certainly could not show any support for the 'Remain' option either. So I will cast my usual protest vote along the lines of that old AF sticker ''No to All Borders - For a Free World'' (for what that's worth - ie not a lot) It seems people have been swayed one way or the other by a set of differing assumptions about the possible impact of the vote result - none of which can be reliably proven either way - the efforts of tiny political fractions in and around our milieu to base some kind of strategy on this that would give them any real influence on subsequent events is frankly pure illusion! So abstaining or voting one way or the other comes down only to being consistent in oneself. Certainly the Referendum in itself has proved a useful capitalist strategy - sowing division and diversion within our class - and it seems amongst our little milieu as well!

mikail firtinaci

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by mikail firtinaci on June 23, 2016

So it may appear that some states will be more destabilized than now, but certainly not weaker when comes to the fiscal and armed repression!

Do you think it does not happen because there is the EU?

fingers malone

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by fingers malone on June 23, 2016

Messed up quoting, sorry

fingers malone

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by fingers malone on June 23, 2016

mikail firtinaci

Fingers; I see the point. Still, I feel the choice is between a EU regulated slavery, which means dumping the majority of migrants to buffer countries while exploiting the rest in a systematic way and, in case of a brexit, doing the same in a more decentralized manner. I doubt that the British state would ever need to resort street violence as its main tool to deal with the situation. That is the way the weaker states like Turkey behave.

Yes, fair enough, what I mean is I think there will be attacks on benefit entitlements, housing rights, more immigration controls, and also more anti-migrant feeling, so a rise in harassment and everyday racism, and more police violence, more immigration patrols. Not mass organised street violence really as such.

mikail firtinaci

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by mikail firtinaci on June 23, 2016

I think the partial aim in this referendum is exactly to demoralize the working class. And this is partially done by isolating any possible radical critique, preemptively, as irrelevant. The tool the government using is fear. The immigrant workers have to fear and be obedient, politically passive etc. because the British workers hate them and only a conservative government can save them. Blue collar workers have to hate the immigrant workers, should accept austerity measures imposed and embrace nationalism. The white collar have to remain alienated from the blue collars for they are "nationalist" and chauvinists and the only "realistic" thing to do is to accept the EU as a lesser evil.

I am familiar to the exact same game - with more violence and bloodshed- from Turkey. Communism is urgently needed. As we remain fearful of these barbarians and lack self confidence they will continue to attack... from both left and right.

S. Artesian

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by S. Artesian on June 23, 2016

Steven.

S Artesian, the EU and NAFTA aren't directly comparable. Of course the free-trade element is about the same (indeed, that's the primary purpose of the existence of the EU), however the EU also includes freedom of movement within it, and strong protections of workers' rights and environmental protections etc.

If the NAFTA zone had something similar, and as a result there were millions of Latin American citizens in the US with the same rights as US citizens, who were then at risk of losing them getting deported, then the situation would be a lot less clear-cut. Also of course wealth disparity within the EU is less significant than in the NAFTA zone, so it is much less straightforwardly a way for the wealthier countries to outsource production to the poorer ones.

So you would suggest there is an argument for support of NAFTA if it provided workers from Mexico with gastarbeiter status, while the US continued workplace raids to deport workers from Honduras, Guatemala, El Salvador, etc?

Got it. Clear to me. The confederacy of European bourgeoisie allows "freedom of movement within it, and strong protections of workers' rights and environmental protections etc." when it's convenient, so therefore, cast a vote in support in favor of supporting the continued existence of the confederacy.

That's some internationalism, that. That's some class consciousness.

Spikymike

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Spikymike on June 23, 2016

And then on the back of recent arguments about the effects of Brexit on the north/south Irish border issue there is this anarchist attempt at an anti-EU/anti-nationalist approach from the Irish WSM:
www.wsm.ie/c/anarchist-observations-brexit-lexit-uk-eu-referendum

Steven.

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Steven. on June 23, 2016

S. Artesian

So you would suggest there is an argument for support of NAFTA if it provided workers from Mexico with gastarbeiter status, while the US continued workplace raids to deport workers from Honduras, Guatemala, El Salvador, etc?

It's not "gastarbeiter" status, it is having the same rights as a citizen in the home country. So yes, if the US allowed free movement of an amount of people over 10 times larger than its own population, and gave them the same rights as its own population as part of NAFTA (which is what is the case with UK membership of the EU) then there would be an argument for this. Although of course not one which I think outweighs the negatives.

Got it. Clear to me. The confederacy of European bourgeoisie allows "freedom of movement within it, and strong protections of workers' rights and environmental protections etc." when it's convenient, so therefore, cast a vote in support in favor of supporting the continued existence of the confederacy.

That's some internationalism, that. That's some class consciousness.

Firstly as you are well aware that's not what I've said, I support neither side in this referendum. I'm curious if you think your argument is so ironclad, why do you feel the need to misrepresent my position?

You are the one who has thrown your hat in the ring with basically all of the U.K.'s racists, neo-Nazis, old Empire fanatics, conspiracy nuts, a handful of paper selling trots and George Galloway. Now that really is some internationalist class consciousness.

fingers malone

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by fingers malone on June 23, 2016

Ok S. Artesian. 1. Doing things that you hope will protect EU migrants does NOT imply that you are fine with deportation or removal of rights from other migrants and I'm sick of Leave people on the left acting like it does.
2. Not wanting your mates to be deported or to lose their rights to housing or to benefits r health care is not the same as convenience.

Auld-bod

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Auld-bod on June 23, 2016

The main reason I may decide to vote will be to negate Nigel Farage’s vote, smug sod.

Chilli Sauce

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Chilli Sauce on June 23, 2016

Sharkfinn

In terms of free movement, that is pure conjecture.

Can you elaborate what you mean by this.

So, just on this, Britain has other agreements outside of membership in the EU that could very well allow for continued free movement and, indeed, free movement is supported by a large section of the British bourgeoisie.

That said, a Brexit vote will definitely empower the political forces of anti-immigration, xenophobia, and just straight up racism. So, I'm with Sharkfinn on this one, even if Brexit doesn't explicitly spell an end to freedom of movement, it certainly makes it more likely, especially given the leave campaign was waged on those grounds.

Fleur

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Fleur on June 23, 2016

I didn't sort myself out a postal vote but I wish I did now, just to annoy the half-wit radicals who are supporting Brexit on the grounds that it might cause the UK economy to tank, fulminate unrest and bring the world one step closer to revolution. No it fucking won't but it might get your neighbours deported.

*Actually, I'm not even sure if I'm entitled to a postal vote, I've never tried.

S. Artesian

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by S. Artesian on June 23, 2016

It's not "gastarbeiter" status, it is having the same rights as a citizen in the home country. So yes, if the US allowed free movement of an amount of people over 10 times larger than its own population, and gave them the same rights as its own population as part of NAFTA (which is what is the case with UK membership of the EU) then there would be an argument for this.

10X larger? 3 billion people in the NAFTA region? Problem one,-- the math.

Firstly as you are well aware that's not what I've said, I support neither side in this referendum. I'm curious if you think your argument is so ironclad, why do you feel the need to misrepresent my position?

You are the one who has thrown your hat in the ring with basically all of the U.K.'s racists, neo-Nazis, old Empire fanatics, conspiracy nuts, a handful of paper selling trots and George Galloway. Now that really is some internationalist class consciousness.

Priceless. I'm misrepresenting "your position"-- which BTW is not the same as your personal decision to vote or not vote, but is your position that it's OK for Marxists, anarchists, revolutionists to vote for the EU--, but you're fairly representing mine when claiming that I've "thrown my hat in ring" with racists, neo-Nazis, etc.-- when everything I have written hinges precisely on opposing those racists, anti-migrants, etc. etc.

Take a hike.

S. Artesian

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by S. Artesian on June 23, 2016

fingers malone

Ok S. Artesian. 1. Doing things that you hope will protect EU migrants does NOT imply that you are fine with deportation or removal of rights from other migrants and I'm sick of Leave people on the left acting like it does.
2. Not wanting your mates to be deported or to lose their rights to housing or to benefits r health care is not the same as convenience.

1. Voting to remain in the EU, to support the institutions that do in fact remove the "rights" of refugees and migrants doesn't imply anything. It actually is supporting those assaults.

2. Not what I said (cross-check with Stephen)-- I said the EU allows it when it is convenient. But since you brought it up, yeah as a matter of fact, if your actions, advocacy etc. are limited to what you think is best for your personal "mates"-- as opposed to what needs to be accomplished by the class-- it is precisely that same as "convenience." It's better known as opportunism.

Fall Back

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Fall Back on June 23, 2016

fingers malone

Ok S. Artesian. 1. Doing things that you hope will protect EU migrants does NOT imply that you are fine with deportation or removal of rights from other migrants and I'm sick of Leave people on the left acting like it does.
2. Not wanting your mates to be deported or to lose their rights to housing or to benefits r health care is not the same as convenience.

All of this, and also:

1. This referendum campaign has been conducted almost entirely on the issue of migration ~per se~; not just EU migration. If Leave wins today (and presumably the right wing of the Conservative Party take control) after having won a referendum fought on the issue of controlling Britain's borders, it's not just EU migrants who are going to get fucked, there will be even further attacks on all migrants of all stripes, and there will be an even further bolstering of the UK border against all migrants - and in practical terms, this is far more likely to be non-EU migrants who get caught in this.

2. In the rest of the EU, if one of the largest economies leaves - in a tide of rising right wing populist anti-migrant sentiment across Europe - it's almost inconceivable that the reaction will be anything but Fortress Europe being tightened even further. The rest of the EU are not going to just sit there and watch their project unravel - they will respond to these concerns (or let's call a spade a spade, racism). Or to be blunt, even more bodies in the Mediterranean.

These are the "material consequences" we have to "confront", and I'm far more interested in these than whether the UK is it's own shitty bosses club, or part of a bigger trans-European bosses club.

Whoever wins, things will get worse. It genuinely disgusted me to vote in a way that can in any way be seen as an endorsement of the EU, but in the face of the facts on the ground, I did it, and I don't have a single regret.

Fall Back

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Fall Back on June 23, 2016

If you wouldn't want Britain to remain in the EU after a revolution how can you advocate for remaining in it prior to a revolution

This is absolutely priceless, genuinely the most ludicrous Lexit argument I've encountered so far (amidst pretty stiff competition). How can you advocate something, and then advocate a different thing in an entirely alien, utterly incomparable situation.

Like, I get my dick out to piss, doesn't mean I'm going to do it on a picket line.

Steven.

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Steven. on June 23, 2016

S. Artesian

It's not "gastarbeiter" status, it is having the same rights as a citizen in the home country. So yes, if the US allowed free movement of an amount of people over 10 times larger than its own population, and gave them the same rights as its own population as part of NAFTA (which is what is the case with UK membership of the EU) then there would be an argument for this.

10X larger? 3 billion people in the NAFTA region? Problem one,-- the math.

You may consider it a "problem", but it's not. The UK being in the EU means that we, a country with a population of 64 million, allow free movement and give the same rights to a population of over 740 million. So a numerical equivalent to this would be the US doing so for over 3 billion (of course if you do it by economy size, rather than population size, then it's even bigger).

So care to answer the question?

Firstly as you are well aware that's not what I've said, I support neither side in this referendum. I'm curious if you think your argument is so ironclad, why do you feel the need to misrepresent my position?

You are the one who has thrown your hat in the ring with basically all of the U.K.'s racists, neo-Nazis, old Empire fanatics, conspiracy nuts, a handful of paper selling trots and George Galloway. Now that really is some internationalist class consciousness.

Priceless. I'm misrepresenting "your position"-- which BTW is not the same as your personal decision to vote or not vote, but is your position that it's OK for Marxists, anarchists, revolutionists to vote for the EU--

No, you did previously misrepresent my position, you are now doing it again, with a different misrepresentation of my opinion. I have not said that "it's okay" for them to vote for that, what I said was that "it is an argument". I also have made clear many times that it is not an argument I agree with. But it is just about as wrong as your arguments.

You are now lying about your previous misrepresentation of my position, in which you clearly said:

Got it. Clear to me. The confederacy of European bourgeoisie allows "freedom of movement within it, and strong protections of workers' rights and environmental protections etc." when it's convenient, so therefore, cast a vote in support in favor of supporting the continued existence of the confederacy.

That is your own words. You said I supported a vote in favour of the EU. I have consistently opposed a vote for either.

but you're fairly representing mine when claiming that I've "thrown my hat in ring" with racists, neo-Nazis, etc.-- when everything I have written hinges precisely on opposing those racists, anti-migrants, etc. etc.

Yes, that is a fair representation of your position, because that is exactly what you have done. You are calling for the same vote in the election as the racist tabloid press, neo-Nazis and George Galloway. Are you now trying to deny this?

Steven.

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Steven. on June 23, 2016

Now I'm going to go argue against the other side…
Fall Back

fingers malone

Ok S. Artesian. 1. Doing things that you hope will protect EU migrants does NOT imply that you are fine with deportation or removal of rights from other migrants and I'm sick of Leave people on the left acting like it does.
2. Not wanting your mates to be deported or to lose their rights to housing or to benefits r health care is not the same as convenience.

All of this, and also:

1. This referendum campaign has been conducted almost entirely on the issue of migration ~per se~; not just EU migration. If Leave wins today (and presumably the right wing of the Conservative Party take control) after having won a referendum fought on the issue of controlling Britain's borders, it's not just EU migrants who are going to get fucked, there will be even further attacks on all migrants of all stripes, and there will be an even further bolstering of the UK border against all migrants - and in practical terms, this is far more likely to be non-EU migrants who get caught in this.

This is definitely a worry, however this will be a worry whichever side wins. TBH if Remain wins, then migration may continue to become an even bigger issue, as people will still to blame EU free movement rules for everything.

Also the Leave side of the Tory party only has 138 MPs, against 185 Remain. The Leave camp in total has 150 MPs out of 450. And the total Tory majority is only 12. So I think it is conjecture to say that things will necessarily get worse for migrants from within or without the EU if there is a Leave vote. And certainly there is no guarantee it would be any better if Remain wins.

More migrants have come to the UK from outside the EU than within in any case, so the government clearly doesn't actually want to limit migration to the numbers it claimed (in the tens of thousands per year), because if it actually wanted to it would have done it. But it doesn't want to, because these people are here to assist business.

2. In the rest of the EU, if one of the largest economies leaves - in a tide of rising right wing populist anti-migrant sentiment across Europe - it's almost inconceivable that the reaction will be anything but Fortress Europe being tightened even further. The rest of the EU are not going to just sit there and watch their project unravel - they will respond to these concerns (or let's call a spade a spade, racism). Or to be blunt, even more bodies in the Mediterranean.

Again, there is some truth to this, but this will be the case if Remain wins as well.

These are the "material consequences" we have to "confront", and I'm far more interested in these than whether the UK is it's own shitty bosses club, or part of a bigger trans-European bosses club.

On this I completely agree. Especially if the government continues with its current plan to deport migrants earning less than £35,000, we need to try to fight every single deportation.

Whoever wins, things will get worse. It genuinely disgusted me to vote in a way that can in any way be seen as an endorsement of the EU, but in the face of the facts on the ground, I did it, and I don't have a single regret.

But the next time the EU implements something anti-working class in the UK, you will be partially responsible.

Sharkfinn

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Sharkfinn on June 23, 2016

So, just on this, Britain has other agreements outside of membership in the EU that could very well allow for continued free movement and, indeed, free movement is supported by a large section of the British bourgeoisie.

What are these agreements exactly and are they related to the status of EU migrants? There's a huge difference between a migrant with a temporary work visa and migrants covered by the rights given by the Schengen treaty. The main benefit of the Schengen treaty for Eastern European workers is that it gives you a freedom of movement within the EU, it effectively promotes their passport to the same level of British or American passports (which like most Western or Northern European passports give you access to effectively anywhere). I fail to see what solid guarantee is there for the right of residence beyond Schengen treaty. Bambuľka kvantová already posted about this on #49 -definitely the best post on this threat so far.

Also on the British bourgeoisie: I don't think the City of London cares whether their coffees are served by migrants covered by the Schengen treaty or migrants on non-permanent work visas. Brexit would't cause a shortage of workers in Britain from the point of view of employers but it would almost certainly undermine existing right from the point of view of many workers.

EDIT: the idiot is talking about the Maastricht Treaty

Steven.

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Steven. on June 23, 2016

Sharkfinn

So, just on this, Britain has other agreements outside of membership in the EU that could very well allow for continued free movement and, indeed, free movement is supported by a large section of the British bourgeoisie.

What are these agreements exactly and are they related to the status of EU migrants? There's a huge difference between a migrant with a temporary work visa and migrants covered by the rights given by the Schengen treaty

The Schengen treaty is completely irrelevant here, as the UK has never been part of Schengen.

The same free movement within the EU applies to the non-EU countries of Switzerland and Norway. As the government clearly want us to remain within the EU, I believe even if we have to leave it we would remain in either the EEA or single market, which would mean free movement would remain.

wojtek

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by wojtek on June 23, 2016

What do you make of Mason's and Bastani's call for mandatory closed shops?

Sharkfinn

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Sharkfinn on June 23, 2016

Yeah I got the EEA and Schengen are mixed up, Sorry. But the argument still stands. I don't get where this idea that Britain would automatically remain in the EEA comes from. Schäuble recently firmly denied that it would be possible and in order to do anything about migration they would have to stay out.

Reddebrek

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Reddebrek on June 23, 2016

Cast your votes

[youtube]RgVIQWItFE8[/youtube]

D

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by D on June 23, 2016

If leave wins I think there would be a significant chance of the UK not being part of the EEA. . Considering a leave win would be based on 'controlling our borders' it would seem illogical to me that they would then join the EEA thus changing nothing.

Khawaga

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Khawaga on June 23, 2016

Sure it's seemingly illogical, but that's what happened in Norway in 1994. About two weeks after a referendum that ended in a no to join the EU, parliament voted to join the EEA.

fingers malone

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by fingers malone on June 23, 2016

S. Artesian

fingers malone

Ok S. Artesian. 1. Doing things that you hope will protect EU migrants does NOT imply that you are fine with deportation or removal of rights from other migrants and I'm sick of Leave people on the left acting like it does.
2. Not wanting your mates to be deported or to lose their rights to housing or to benefits r health care is not the same as convenience.

1. Voting to remain in the EU, to support the institutions that do in fact remove the "rights" of refugees and migrants doesn't imply anything. It actually is supporting those assaults.

2. Not what I said (cross-check with Stephen)-- I said the EU allows it when it is convenient. But since you brought it up, yeah as a matter of fact, if your actions, advocacy etc. are limited to what you think is best for your personal "mates"-- as opposed to what needs to be accomplished by the class-- it is precisely that same as "convenience." It's better known as opportunism.

Do I need to clarify here that my actions are not only about what I think is best for my personal mates or can I assume that people know that?

Sharkfinn

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Sharkfinn on June 23, 2016

Steve is definitely right in that Cameron would try some kind of last minute rescue, "oh we didn't mean the EEA" but I don't think this would necessarily work out. He would probably resign eventually and the leaving negotiations can be stalled to 2020, when the conservative party ones again has something to gain from racist campaigning.

I don't think its impossible that Britain would leave EU and opt out of many EEA rules, mainly concerning freedom of movement and other things British conservatives like to whinge about. I think so because it seems to me the simplest way to implement brexit. The EU has always allowed individual states to opt out from particular individual rules before, just not at such radical level. What makes this possible is the far right and anti-migrant sentiment across Europe and how politically powerful it is. The far right has gained ground in the EU parliament as well. I don't see the EU at the current state fighting for the freedom of movement of EU citizens enough to affirm existing rights when individual states start leaving.

Steven.

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Steven. on June 23, 2016

D

If leave wins I think there would be a significant chance of the UK not being part of the EEA. . Considering a leave win would be based on 'controlling our borders' it would seem illogical to me that they would then join the EEA thus changing nothing.

Of course, but politics isn't based on logical ideas, it's based on economic interests.

Big business wants the UK to remain in the EU, as does the government and three quarters of MPs. This being the case, it would be entirely illogical for the government to get us to completely pull out of the EU, the EEA and the single market, wouldn't it?

Of course some Leave voters would be annoyed, but the government is quite happy for people to be annoyed by things.

Sharkfinn

I don't think its impossible that Britain would leave EU and opt out of many EEA rules, mainly concerning freedom of movement and other things British conservatives like to whinge about. I think so because it seems to me the simplest way to implement brexit.

That maybe simplest on one level, but when you think that the overriding will of the government, and British and European capital, is for the UK to remain in the single market, then isn't the most likely outcome, given that the government will be in charge of deciding what happens, that they will do what they want to do and what British and European capital wants them to do?

One thing which has surprised me about this whole referendum is how some anarchists seem to think that British capitalists and the government would actually allow a popular vote to completely fuck up the economy. Especially as they were the ones to choose the question they asked, and so set the whole agenda for the referendum. If they were really going to give us the option of leaving the single market, wouldn't have that in the question?

fingers malone

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by fingers malone on June 23, 2016

Look I don't think it necessarily has to hinge on restricting freedom of movement as such, as in restricting EU passport holders' ability to cross the border. I think the prospect of loads of smaller scale rules about whether you can access public services is also possible and would also screw up people's lives.

And could I just save the men some time here by saying that, yes, I do understand that those things are happening already and that, yes, those things might happen as well if the vote goes to remain.

Steven.

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Steven. on June 23, 2016

fingers malone

Look I don't think it necessarily has to hinge on restricting freedom of movement as such, as in restricting EU passport holders' ability to cross the border. I think the prospect of loads of smaller scale rules about whether you can access public services is also possible and would also screw up people's lives.

On this, if Leave wins and the outcome is what I predict (we remain in the single market or EEA), then this can't happen any more than it would under Remain, as the rules on equal treatment of EU citizens remain.

I mean I could well be wrong on this, but given the lengths the government go to to protect business interests, I just cannot believe that they would let them be completely wrecked just to keep Nigel Farage happy.

D

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by D on June 23, 2016

Steven.

D

If leave wins I think there would be a significant chance of the UK not being part of the EEA. . Considering a leave win would be based on 'controlling our borders' it would seem illogical to me that they would then join the EEA thus changing nothing.

Of course, but politics isn't based on logical ideas, it's based on economic interests.

Big business wants the UK to remain in the EU, as does the government and three quarters of MPs. This being the case, it would be entirely illogical for the government to get us to completely pull out of the EU, the EEA and the single market, wouldn't it?

Of course some Leave voters would be annoyed, but the government is quite happy for people to be annoyed by things.

[

I generally agree that government does things based on economic interests but I'm not sure thats always 100% the case. What were the economic reasons for Nazi concentration camps? Or Pol Pot's genocide etc. I know these are obviously very different situations but the idea goverments will only ever follow economic pressures seems at least a bit too simplistic for me.

Steven.

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Steven. on June 23, 2016

wojtek

What do you make of Mason's and Bastani's call for mandatory closed shops?

Typical pie in the sky "pragmatic" lefty nonsense under the guise of pragmatism. It's not going to happen.

It is also particularly hilarious as an argument for Remain, because European legislation bans union closed shops, and Labour originally started opposing closed shops in order to get in line with Europe in 1989.

(As an aside, as communists I don't think we should support closed shops, as they force workers/unions to essentially become part of management. This article on it is really good.)

S. Artesian

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by S. Artesian on June 23, 2016

Yes, that is a fair representation of your position, because that is exactly what you have done. You are calling for the same vote in the election as the racist tabloid press, neo-Nazis and George Galloway. Are you now trying to deny this?

Of course I am denying it. My position begins with open borders. My position is directly in opposition to that of the racist tabloid press, neo-Nazis, etc.

Who's lying? I've stated that the opposition to the EU has begin with open borders, and not distinction between legal and illegal workers; EU "citizens" and non-EU citizens.

Here's how it goes with Stephen: Trump says the invasion of Iraq was "justified" by lies; Artesian says the "justifications" for the invasion of Iraq were lies. Artesian has thrown his hat into Trump's ring.

Appropriate response: Fuck-off you syllogizing twit.

Ten X the number? We were talking about NAFTA. It's physically impossible for NAFTA to contain a provision for the admission of 10X the US population since the population of the others in the agreement is less than the population of the US. Like I said, check the math.

Not Gastarbeiters, but "equal rights"-- no, not exactly, since the EU agreed to "special" UK modifications of those rights; since the EU will sooner rather than later internalize its already external policy on refugees, and alter its commitment to "equal rights for migrants."

How can supposed anarchists-- mostly so outspoken against the "sham" of votes, of parliaments, of bureaucrats crumble and endorse, even if "holding their noses" the institutions and organizations that even MSF finds so offensive it now refuses their money is beyond my comprehension.

And oh yes indeed Stephen-- yours is the "abstain" position, which is more or less, whatever happens, status quo, or so change imposed by reaction to the status quo, it's better to do nothing. My apologies for intimating that you in any way shape or form want the UK to remain in the EU. Or do you?

And to all-- don't assume anything. You want to endorse voting to remain, then you are endorsing the institutions and organizations of the bourgeoisie that refuse refugees sanctuary; that train police forces around the world; that demolished Greece. Go right ahead and "protect your mates." Don't tell others it has anything to do with class.

2 W

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by 2 W on June 23, 2016

I think we should be focusing on our response to both outcomes:

How do we blow open this conversation of migration, like people have said who ever asks the questions can determine the answers and now we have mainstream left and centre fighting the far right and the fash on whether to abuse migrants more of less than we already are.

Dreaming of better referendum questions:

Should we open up our borders to everyone?

Should capitalism be made illegal?

Should the business classes of Europe, Russia, North America and their colonies be forced to pay our reparations bill to the South?

Should we replace the pound with no currency at all?

Or for the reformists amongst us:

Should we have an NHS?

Shoud we increase the minimum wage?

Should we see more land given back to the commons?

Should we abolish mortgage and rent for houses that have been built 20-25 years ago?

Should we have a guaranteed income?

The above are just a few examples, but the conversation that people are forced to have from the above questions are very different from the one we've been forced to have through this stupid referendum one.

It's like saying 'Immigrants are the problem, what are the best ways of dealing with them?' as opposed to "Are immigrants the problem, or borders?"

Fall Back

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Fall Back on June 23, 2016

(possibly a slight derail)

Steven.

Of course, but politics isn't based on logical ideas, it's based on economic interests.

Big business wants the UK to remain in the EU, as does the government and three quarters of MPs. This being the case, it would be entirely illogical for the government to get us to completely pull out of the EU, the EEA and the single market, wouldn't it?

Of course some Leave voters would be annoyed, but the government is quite happy for people to be annoyed by things.

I think this is way too simplified in terms of how the government actually works. Like, government is never just a pure, force above society, directing the country perfectly according to the clear and undisputed desires of capital. While that's the ultimate reason, other factors also come into it - there are very definitely people within the ruling class who would happily accept a hit (although not a meltdown obviously) of the economy in order to for example reduce migration or preserve some little englander idea of sovereignty.

There's also not a single economic interest, and there's not a unified view or voice of big business. Most (but not all) large businesses want Britain to stay in the single market, and most serious economic analysts think the economy would do worse outside (but again, let's not get carried away w some of the propaganda coming from the government, Remain campaign etc - most forecasts are that the economy would do worse, rather than a disaster). There are however significant dissenting views within the ruling class (eg Dyson) and the government- while Gove et al may just be opportunists, Johnson, IDS etc clearly do honestly believe the UK economy would fair better outside the EU.

Also obviously at this point it's all supposition, but given the campaign having been fought on migration (and especially looking what happening in Scotland post-Indy Ref) I think it'd be absolute political suicide for the government to try pull a fast one and stay within EEA/Single Market with freedom of movement - UKIP / the Euroskeptic wing of the Tory Party would likely clean up - especially as Johnson is fairly certain to be PM if Leave win, I suspect an awful lot of MPs would see which way the wind was blowing and have a change of heart. The ruling class has always been fractured with competing views and interests, and if it looks like one outlook is expedient then history generally suggests they're happy to bend to it.

One thing which has surprised me about this whole referendum is how some anarchists seem to think that British capitalists and the government would actually allow a popular vote to completely fuck up the economy. Especially as they were the ones to choose the question they asked, and so set the whole agenda for the referendum. If they were really going to give us the option of leaving the single market, wouldn't have that in the question?

Again, I think it's important not to overstate how fucked the economy would be with Leave / no freedom of movement - it looks likely there'd be a hit, but we're not talking 2008 here.

It's a (legally) non-binding referendum, and in popular discourse, the EU is the issue, that's why that's the question. You could just as well ask why the government came fairly close to allowing the Union to break up in 2014. Sometimes things are forced upon it by other factions of the ruling class / wider social forces that they can't control, or just have to roll with.

Steven.

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Steven. on June 23, 2016

S. Artesian

Yes, that is a fair representation of your position, because that is exactly what you have done. You are calling for the same vote in the election as the racist tabloid press, neo-Nazis and George Galloway. Are you now trying to deny this?

Of course I am denying it. My position begins with open borders. My position is directly in opposition to that of the racist tabloid press, neo-Nazis, etc.

No, on this issue your position - Vote Leave - is exactly the same as racist tabloids and neo-Nazis, like I said.

Who's lying?

You lied, above, about misrepresenting my views, as I quoted above, and which you seem to have acknowledged and apologised for later in your post, here:

S. Artesian

My apologies for intimating that you in any way shape or form want the UK to remain in the EU.

Now on to the next bit:

Here's how it goes with Stephen: Trump says the invasion of Iraq was "justified" by lies; Artesian says the "justifications" for the invasion of Iraq were lies. Artesian has thrown his hat into Trump's ring.

That is an accurate statement, if it is with regard to saying you are in the same ring as him in terms of your views on the Iraq war in justified by lies. Just as it is accurate to say that you are calling for the same vote as racists and fascists in this referendum.

Appropriate response: Fuck-off you syllogizing twit.

This is a no flaming forum and personal abuse is forbidden.

Ten X the number? We were talking about NAFTA. It's physically impossible for NAFTA to contain a provision for the admission of 10X the US population since the population of the others in the agreement is less than the population of the US. Like I said, check the math.

That is an amusing use of semantics to avoid answering the question. Okay then imagine NAFTA changed its name to remove the words "North American", then answer the question. Thanks

Not Gastarbeiters, but "equal rights"-- no, not exactly, since the EU agreed to "special" UK modifications of those rights; since the EU will sooner rather than later internalize its already external policy on refugees, and alter its commitment to "equal rights for migrants."

the "special" modifications of equal rights for the UK everyone knows are a complete joke. All he got was temporary restrictions on some benefits, which will be phased in and then will end.

And to all-- don't assume anything. You want to endorse voting to remain, then you are endorsing the institutions and organizations of the bourgeoisie that refuse refugees sanctuary; that train police forces around the world; that demolished Greece. Go right ahead and "protect your mates." Don't tell others it has anything to do with class.

Seriously you are being so obnoxious here that you are making it very difficult to observe the no flaming rules.

Fingers Malone was very clear she wasn't just talking about "her friends". As many of us have made clear many times, this is about the lives of millions of EU migrants who are living in the UK. And yes, it is to do with class, because they are proletarian. They are our friends, our families, our lovers, our colleagues, our partners. If they were rich we wouldn't worry about what would happen to them. But because they have nothing to sell but their labour power, they are at risk here (as I said I don't think this is a significant risk, but this is a gamble).

If you think the lives and futures of a couple of million workers don't matter for anything, just because they're not English, then to be honest maybe you do have more in common with Nigel Farage and co than you thought.

freemind

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by freemind on June 23, 2016

I was arguing with a Londoner In my street who insisted I should vote leave.He didn't know I was an Anarchist but in the course of conversation he said re;Nationalism/Racism that Individualism was the problem that the Anarchists started and the Nazis adopted.I put him right and told him Anarchism was based on individual freedom tempered by collective responsibility and was essentially fundamentally anti state Communism.I also added that Anarchists had suffered terribly resisting Fascism and Racism.
Essentially this vote is a parley by the British Ruling class and it's European counterparts to renegotiate their treaty with the aim of abolishing Maternity and Minimum pay.
I told my neighbour that I won't consent to being put over a barrel by a European boss or one with a bloody Union Jack wrapped around it-our position as wage slaves and working class subjects is still one of copper fastened bondage to Capital.

Pennoid

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Pennoid on June 23, 2016

I like how voting for remain is the worst anti-communist thing you can do, and voting for leave is the sharpest left politics. It's almost like plebiscite referendums called by bourgeois parties don't offer the working class very much in the way of politics at all.

It's almost like leave or remain, the international capitalist class will still exercise a functional veto over the polices of this or that nation state.

It's almost like in order for the working class to stop tailing events and voting on these bullshit referenda, they'd have to be organized into a mass socialist party, (or political organization in general, my anarchist friends) which could engage in politics on it's own terms.

Almost...

S. Artesian

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by S. Artesian on June 23, 2016

SA

Here's how it goes with Stephen: Trump says the invasion of Iraq was "justified" by lies; Artesian says the "justifications" for the invasion of Iraq were lies. Artesian has thrown his hat into Trump's ring.

S

That is an accurate statement, if it is with regard to saying you are in the same ring as him in terms of your views on the Iraq war in justified by lies. Just as it is accurate to say that you are calling for the same vote as racists and fascists in this referendum.

SA

Appropriate response: Fuck-off you syllogizing twit.

S

This is a no flaming forum and personal abuse is forbidden.

Come off it. So anybody opposing anything that anybody else opposes for whatever reason is allied with that person? Pure fucking genius. Here's one: Golden Dawn opposes the Syriza government. Libcom administrators oppose the Syriza government. Therefore Libcom admins are allied with Golden Dawn.

Those are syllogisms-- presenting an appearance of truth based on formalism that disregards the content and context of the material conditions. And you say I'm being so obnoxious, it's hard to adhere to flaming rules.

It's all too redolent, stinks actually, of the old Stalinist "objectively allied with 'counterrevolution' " smearing used against Trotskyists, left communists, anarchist. That's whose ring your hat is in.

Fuck off you syllogizing twit is personal abuse? OK, how's this: Buzz off you sophist--- is that better? Does that trigger your flame alarm?

You say you're "depressed" and you take no position-- but that's either a beard or just cowardice. You don't say that those who advocate remain are "in the ring" with those who allow refugees to perish at sea; with those who have taken military action to create massive numbers of refugees; are "in the ring" with those launching air-strikes in Syria, like they launched in Libya.

If you actually think that my positions are the same as neo-Nazis-- that my "Out of the EU, Open the Borders to All, is a neo-Nazi position, than you as an admin should take the appropriate action-- which would be to ban me from Libcom for that reason. Of course, you'd then have to explain how you could allow those "in the same ring" with those conducting air-strikes in Syria to remain, but I'm sure you would figure out something.

radicalgraffiti

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by radicalgraffiti on June 23, 2016

S. Artesian

If you actually think that my positions are the same as neo-Nazis-- that my "Out of the EU, Open the Borders to All, is a neo-Nazi position, than you as an admin should take the appropriate action-- which would be to ban me from Libcom for that reason. Of course, you'd then have to explain how you could allow those "in the same ring" with those conducting air-strikes in Syria to remain, but I'm sure you would figure out something.

hi could you locate "Out of the EU, Open the Borders to All" on the ballot paper? i cant seem to find it.

Sharkfinn

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Sharkfinn on June 23, 2016

Steven.

Sharkfinn

I don't think its impossible that Britain would leave EU and opt out of many EEA rules, mainly concerning freedom of movement and other things British conservatives like to whinge about. I think so because it seems to me the simplest way to implement brexit.

That maybe simplest on one level, but when you think that the overriding will of the government, and British and European capital, is for the UK to remain in the single market, then isn't the most likely outcome, given that the government will be in charge of deciding what happens, that they will do what they want to do and what British and European capital wants them to do?

Fall Back's reply already said most of what I was going to say. But I'll do my own rant anyway.

Steve is right in that British capitalist would definitely want Britain to stay in the EU and their politicians would try to figure out some kind of way to ensure continued access to EU markets. Where I differ is that I don't think capitalist have that coherent level of control.

Some Marxist (I forgot who) said that "capital rules but it does not govern". Class rule is mostly indirect and based on being embedded in the political system. It doesn't draft policy or even secure its own stability always (I mean we've had two world wars). Capitalism rules us because its the mode of production. Until we create another way of social reproduction we are governed by its logic and contradictions. But just because our lives are subsumed under capitalism doesn't necessarily mean our lives are governed by the political interests of some capitalists. The logic of capital and the logic of capitalist are different things. Having money doesn't necessarily translate into being well organised, for example the interests of the ruling class might end up being represented by Boris Johnson. Like the left, capitalists are also capable of not having their shit together.

There's a difference between capital as a social relationship, which doesn't have any inherent interests since its not an entity, and then there's the capitalist ruling class which does have its own interests. What those would be in relation to Brexit is hard to say as the City of London doesn't necessarily care what happens to British manufacturing, they make their money elsewhere.

British manufacturing would take a massive hit, but how much power does the export sector hold anyway? The big capital that fuels the UK is mostly financial, surplus coming from the rest of the world. While some parts of the UK economy would suffer, global capitalism wouldn't be hit by Brexit alone. Although it might trigger a recession, capital would not necessarily be bearing the brunt of that.

S. Artesian

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by S. Artesian on June 23, 2016

hi could you locate "Out of the EU, Open the Borders to All" on the ballot paper? i cant seem to find it.

I said that's the campaign to be waged. Where on the ballot does it say "Kick Out Migrants"? It does not. The "left" in its finite anti-wisdom has let that become the subtext, the backstory, the front story about leaving the EU by its mealy-mouthing about the "benefits" of remaining in the EU....

Where does it say, "Support Turning Back the Refugees to Turkey"? It doesn't-- but that's the ring your tossing your hat into if you vote remain.

S. Artesian

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by S. Artesian on June 23, 2016

Like, I get my dick out to piss, doesn't mean I'm going to do it on a picket line.

Sure thing... and your politics are just like your dick-- most of the time undercover, and when not....taking the piss.

Serge Forward

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Serge Forward on June 23, 2016

S. Artesian

Where does it say, "Support Turning Back the Refugees to Turkey"?

To be fair, that's not far from the sort of campaign the Brexit side has been running.

S. Artesian

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by S. Artesian on June 23, 2016

Serge Forward

S. Artesian

Where does it say, "Support Turning Back the Refugees to Turkey"?

To be fair, that's not far from the sort of campaign the Brexit side has been running.

To be more fair, it's exactly the program of the EU, which the Bremain side is supporting.

factvalue

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by factvalue on June 23, 2016

Could libcom admins stop waving their illogical and ill-informed little club around for a wee while, it's getting really tedious? Thanks.

Serge Forward

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Serge Forward on June 23, 2016

S. Artesian

Serge Forward

S. Artesian

Where does it say, "Support Turning Back the Refugees to Turkey"?

To be fair, that's not far from the sort of campaign the Brexit side has been running.

To be more fair, it's exactly the program of the EU, which the Bremain side is supporting.

That is a fair point too. But Brexit can trump that by saying send all refugees back to Syria or Iraq but not Turkey as they assure us Turkey's EU membership card is already in the post. It isn't, by the way.

cantdocartwheels

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by cantdocartwheels on June 23, 2016

First time i've ever been in a polling booth and hopefully the last. Voted to remain. Only way I could look a lot of friends, family, co-workers and kids i teach in the eye after really. A leave vote will obviously just be used to drum up even more scapegoating and reactionary shite.

Lexit is mostly the usual mental playing abstract political chess in your heads nonsense from the left that has little to do with reality. Occasionally as others have pointed out combined with a crass ''working class'' vs ''migrants'' distinction.

Abstaining is fine though i think its the wrong choice in this case. Might leave a few with eggs on their faces tomorrow though if its really close.

S. Artesian

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by S. Artesian on June 23, 2016

Congratulations on voting to remain in a union that has pillaged the population of Greece, forced hundreds of thousands to flee Ireland, refused sanctuary to refugees... at least you won't have to ever look any of them in the eye.

factvalue

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by factvalue on June 23, 2016

I like 2W's suggestion but we defo need to close the questions down a bit more:

2 W

Dreaming of better referendum questions:

Should we open up our borders to everyone? [or pull our own teeth out with red hot tongs?]

Should capitalism be made illegal? [better: should any form of trade carry the death penalty or should we go and live in Antarctica?]

Should the business classes of Europe, Russia, North America and their colonies be forced to pay our reparations bill to the South? [or should we drown them all in their own faeces and do it ourselves?]

Should we replace the pound with no currency at all? [in place of 'pound' put 'money', in place of 'no currency at all put 'full communism' and add 'or drain our blood straight into rivers?']

Should we see more land given back to the commons? [replace 'more' with 'all' and add 'or melt down all family cars to form circular saws then do star jumps on the blades?']

fingers malone

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by fingers malone on June 23, 2016

deleted

Steven.

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Steven. on June 23, 2016

S. Artesian

You say you're "depressed" and you take no position

Seriously what is your issue? You boast about how many languages you speak, but despite the fact I have said it several times in very plain English, you still don't understand what my positions?

Anyway, now that you can't dodge the question with semantics anymore, how about answering my question about the theoretical (non-North American) NAFTA?

Fleur

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Fleur on June 23, 2016

Congratulations on voting to remain in a union that has pillaged the population of Greece, forced hundreds of thousands to flee Ireland, refused sanctuary to refugees... at least you won't have to ever look any of them in the eye.

Jesus fucking christ, as if any of this isn't going to happen if the UK leaves the EU.

Steven.

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Steven. on June 23, 2016

Fleur

Congratulations on voting to remain in a union that has pillaged the population of Greece, forced hundreds of thousands to flee Ireland, refused sanctuary to refugees... at least you won't have to ever look any of them in the eye.

Jesus fucking christ, as if any of this isn't going to happen if the UK leaves the EU.

Don't be silly, Fleur, as you well know it is a historical and scientific fact that the British government never did anything bad until they joined the EU. And if they left they would never do anything bad over again.

Also, with Greece that comment is fair enough, but austerity in Ireland started a good couple of years before the EU got involved, so Artesian is kind of showing again he doesn't really know what he's talking about.

fingers malone

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by fingers malone on June 23, 2016

deleted

Steven.

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Steven. on June 23, 2016

fingers malone

The comment about Greece is not fair enough to people like me and Can'tdo.

Well, you will disagree of course but I think it is I'm afraid. The EU is imposing vicious austerity on them, and you have voted for its continuing as the status quo. Similar to people who vote Labour, many of them of course have good intentions and think it will be the least worst option, however if you vote for them you are partially responsible when they inevitably do bad things.

On a related note, final polls put Remain slightly ahead, Farage has conceded he has probably narrowly lost: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/23/voters-still-divided-as-eu-referendum-polls-close

First results should be in around 12:30. Whatever the result, personally I can't wait for this tedious shitshow to be over…

S. Artesian

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by S. Artesian on June 23, 2016

Steven.

S. Artesian

You say you're "depressed" and you take no position

Seriously what is your issue? You boast about how many languages you speak, but despite the fact I have said it several times in very plain English, you still don't understand what my positions?

Anyway, now that you can't dodge the question with semantics anymore, how about answering my question about the theoretical (non-North American) NAFTA?

My issue is your bullshit that I am "objectively" allied with neo-Nazis. That's a fucking smear, worthy of Stalinists, or Labor MPs. You are a smearer. I am allied with neo-Nazis to precisely the same degree that you are allied with the bombers of Syria and Libya. That's the non-semantic issue.

I understand the "cover" for your position. The reality is that you categorize as allied with Neo-Nazis (or Donald Trump) those on one side of the issue through syllogism (a euphemism for the sheer bullshit that you use), but make no such "links" to the real use of bourgeois power to destroy populations among those voting to remain in the EU.

For the record, I never was discussing a theoretic non-North American NAFTA. The very construction of such a "theory" is nonsense as NAFTA stands for North America. If NAFTA afforded benefits of US citizenship to Canadians and Mexicans, I would still oppose it on the ground of it increasing the power of the US bourgeoisie to exploit labor. ... and the main enemy happens to always be at home.

If I were in Mexico, I would oppose NAFTA, not because it represents an affront to "national pride" or allows US capitalists certain advantages, but because it represents a mechanism for the Mexican bourgeoisie to consolidate power, increase exploitation, dispossess subsistence producers.

As for the polls showing a thin but probable victory for remain-- well, congratulations to Cameron and all those who go into his ring by voting remain. Good job. But it isn't going to do your "mates" a bit of good. The bourgeois economy will worsen, and the bleating on the right will increase. The EU will be only too eager to secure its right in order to turn of the "left" that was so diligently carrying its water.

factvalue

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by factvalue on June 23, 2016

Good post SA, don't take any of this weak-minded bullshit.

Steven.

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Steven. on June 23, 2016

S. Artesian

Steven.

S. Artesian

You say you're "depressed" and you take no position

Seriously what is your issue? You boast about how many languages you speak, but despite the fact I have said it several times in very plain English, you still don't understand what my positions?

Anyway, now that you can't dodge the question with semantics anymore, how about answering my question about the theoretical (non-North American) NAFTA?

My issue is your bullshit that I am "objectively" allied with neo-Nazis. That's a fucking smear, worthy of Stalinists, or Labor MPs. You are a smearer… I understand the "cover" for your position. The reality is that you categorize as allied with Neo-Nazis (or Donald Trump) those on one side of the issue through syllogism (a euphemism for the sheer bullshit that you use), but make no such "links" to the real use of bourgeois power to destroy populations among those voting to remain in the EU.

If your problem with my saying that is more that I didn't site about the Remain camp, then I'm happy to say that those who voted for Remain have thrown their hat in the ring with David Cameron, Jeremy Corbyn, Steven Hawking, Caroline Lucas, David Beckham, John Barnes etc etc with regard to this referendum.

I am allied with neo-Nazis to precisely the same degree that you are allied with the bombers of Syria and Libya. That's the non-semantic issue.

That's incorrect though, as the government which bomb Syria and Libya are not calling for abstention, they are calling for a Remain vote.

For the record, I never was discussing a theoretic non-North American NAFTA. The very construction of such a "theory" is nonsense as NAFTA stands for North America. If NAFTA afforded benefits of US citizenship to Canadians and Mexicans, I would still oppose it on the ground of it increasing the power of the US bourgeoisie to exploit labor. ... and the main enemy happens to always be at home.

I'm sure you are just pretending not to understand my question. You compared UK membership of the EU to NAFTA. So I simply said that if you wanted to compare them accurately, then you need to make them comparable. I.e. along with the current requirements of NAFTA, you need to give the same rights as citizens to a population over 10 times the size of the US population, and include worker/environmental protections. And then ask if you still can't understand that pro-remain anarchists do at least have an argument (n.b. for the thousandth time, not an argument I agree with)

As for the polls showing a thin but probable victory for remain-- well, congratulations to Cameron and all those who go into his ring by voting remain.

Er you realise you have just done to the others what you say I did you, is totally unacceptable right? I.e. "smeared" them as being "objectively allied" with Cameron; in exactly the same way that you are allied with Farage and the BNP…

S. Artesian

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by S. Artesian on June 23, 2016

Also, with Greece that comment is fair enough, but austerity in Ireland started a good couple of years before the EU got involved, so Artesian is kind of showing again he doesn't really know what he's talking about.

The crisis in Ireland, centered originally in the construction industry and property markets, and non-performing loans in those areas, brought about a bank bailout by the Irish government in 2008, which included "blank check" guarantees to the banks through 2010. In October 2008, the ECB issued guidelines for state recapitalizations of commercial banks. These recommendations failed given the fact that what was at issue was solvency, not liquidity, and so when the clock struck 2010, the government turned to the Troika for an "Economic Adjustment Programme," in order to meet the payments due on a mass of debt coming due when the "guarantee" expired. 67.5 billion in euros was sought from the EFSF, the ECB, and the IMF.

An agreement was signed in December 2010 which included draconian austerity with severe cuts to government social welfare spending at the very time as unemployment was soaring.

All of this, of course, gets dressed up in Reagan/Thatcher speak as a "National Recovery Plan," which was nothing other than an assault on social programs. From the Irish government's own "report" on the "plan" :

The major drivers of public spending are Public Service Pay and Pensions; Social Welfare and Public Service programme spending; and Public Investment.
Gross Voted Public Spending 2010
27% = Working age social expenditures
24% = Programme expenditures
26% = Public service pay
5% = Public sector pensions
7% = Social welfare pensions
11% = Investment

The bulk of the savings we must achieve will have to come from these categories. The Government is determined to eliminate waste and make maximum savings from efficiencies. But it is simply not credible to suggest that our public finance difficulties can be resolved without impacting on the public service pay bill, social welfare or public services.

http://www.budget.gov.ie/The%20National%20Recovery%20Plan%202011-2014.pdf

That "plan," like the various plans for Greece, was the price exacted by the Troika, and precipitated emigration significantly greater than the pre-2010 levels. Between 2008 and 2009 emigration jumped about 45%, falling back slightly in 2010, but achieving increasing levels every year in years 2011, 2012, 2013, with levels in 2014 and 2015 still higher than that of 2009.

So, uhh, at the risk of flaming, buzz off you syllogistic twit, you don't know what the fuck you are talking about.

jef costello

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by jef costello on June 23, 2016

Some stunningly bad faith from S Artesian there.

Congratulations on voting to remain in a union that has pillaged the population of Greece, forced hundreds of thousands to flee Ireland, refused sanctuary to refugees... at least you won't have to ever look any of them in the eye.

Ireland's economic miracle was massively dependent on the EU (the government got called out for their friendly taw regime that allowed profits from other EU countries to be routed through there for example) and the EU was not responsible for the collapse either.

The problem with Greece is that they can't do what a country in that position would traditonally do, which is devalue the currency. But that would destroy international credit, kill imports etc if you stay within a captialist system then those are bad results. IF you've got communismm then theydon't exist as problems.

As hasbeen said before the EU has plenty of flaws but if you thinking voting for brexit will address those things then you are insane. In terms of migrants the EU may treat them badly but Britain does so and did so before and how anyone can imagine that a leave vote that has been fought largely on immigration would lead to better treatment for migrants is beyond me.

btw didn't vote on ideological grounds but would prefer to see brexit lose. I didn't give a shit about Sadiq Khan but after Goldsmith's racist campaing I was pretty happy to see him lose. Brexit may have actual consequences on people's lives and is also largely a plebiscite on how racist the nation is.

One last this the campaigns have often talked of the results of an EU exit as if it were an exit from the EEA, but no one (I think) has actually said it although some brexiters have cited Switzerland and Norway as if they think that those countries didn't have to accept EU legislation.

factvalue

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by factvalue on June 23, 2016

Dandy racket ball.

Sharkfinn

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Sharkfinn on June 23, 2016

I don't know what people are on about talking about Greece. The vote has nothing to do with what has happened / is happening / will ever happen to Greece. Also the austerity has more to do with Germany (and its nordic lackeys) and the troika rather than the EU as a whole. Here's a thought: maybe S. Artesian shouldn't hijack another referendum thread.

S. Artesian

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by S. Artesian on June 23, 2016

If your problem with my saying that is more that I didn't site about the Remain camp,

No, my problem is that you are a smear artist, using syllogism to create a false linkage. And it's not my problem. Your dishonesty, and specious logic, is your problem

SA

I am allied with neo-Nazis to precisely the same degree that you are allied with the bombers of Syria and Libya. That's the non-semantic issue.

s

That's incorrect though, as the government which bomb Syria and Libya are not calling for abstention, they are calling for a Remain vote.

Correct. Not you. I mean your mates, who to protect their mates, are allied with those who bomb Syria, Libya, invade Afghanistan. All done in the name of "freedom of movement."

For the record, I never was discussing a theoretic non-North American NAFTA. The very construction of such a "theory" is nonsense as NAFTA stands for North America. If NAFTA afforded benefits of US citizenship to Canadians and Mexicans, I would still oppose it on the ground of it increasing the power of the US bourgeoisie to exploit labor. ... and the main enemy happens to always be at home.

I'm sure you are just pretending not to understand my question. You compared UK membership of the EU to NAFTA. So I simply said that if you wanted to compare them accurately, then you need to make them comparable. I.e. along with the current requirements of NAFTA, you need to give the same rights as citizens to a population over 10 times the size of the US population, and include worker/environmental protections. And then ask if you still can't understand that pro-remain anarchists do at least have an argument (n.b. for the thousandth time, not an argument I agree with)

And as I have pointed out the "numbers" are immaterial as they are based, contingent upon excluding as a class entire sectors of the population. Do you really think your "European wide citizenship" is somehow separate and apart, not linked, to the importation of workers without such privileges? Workers imported from outside the EU, like the agricultural and construction workers in Spain prior to the 2008 implosion? Do you honestly think, your fucking little European wide privileges are not built upon the exclusion, impoverishment, and destitution of millions inside and outside Europe?

You don't think the fact that "illegal" laborers working, for example in Naples, producing goods without the prospects of "free movement" or the provisions of social welfare is essential to, inherent in, maintenance of the EU and the so-called "freedom of movement."

I might be tempted to say that "I can't believe you're that blind" or that stupid. But I'm not. Indeed, the evidence is that you are precisely both.

SA

As for the polls showing a thin but probable victory for remain-- well, congratulations to Cameron and all those who go into his ring by voting remain.

S

Er you realise you have just done to the others what you say I did you, is totally unacceptable right? I.e. "smeared" them as being "objectively allied" with Cameron; in exactly the same way that you are allied with Farage and the BNP…

No shit, Sherlock. You must be a detective. Ask your mates how it feels to be in the Cameron camp; in the Schauble camp; in the Hollande camp. It was stated precisely because it parallels what you are only to eager to do.

S. Artesian

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by S. Artesian on June 24, 2016

Congratulations on voting to remain in a union that has pillaged the population of Greece, forced hundreds of thousands to flee Ireland, refused sanctuary to refugees... at least you won't have to ever look any of them in the eye.

Ireland's economic miracle was massively dependent on the EU (the government got called out for their friendly taw regime that allowed profits from other EU countries to be routed through there for example) and the EU was not responsible for the collapse either.

Of course I never said the EU was responsible for the collapse, anymore than I would say the EU was responsible for its expansion. Get that, I never said that? I said that the price the Troika extracted from the Irish government caused hundreds of thousands to emigrate. Get it?

The problem with Greece is that they can't do what a country in that position would traditonally do, which is devalue the currency. But that would destroy international credit, kill imports etc if you stay within a captialist system then those are bad results. IF you've got communismm then theydon't exist as problems.

Two things: Devaluing the currency does not destroy international credit ratings. Repudiating the debt generally means a country can't access the international capital markets. Currency devaluation may, or may not, cause a country to pay higher interest rates. Secondly, the Greek crisis is not a balance of payments crisis, FFS.

As hasbeen said before the EU has plenty of flaws but if you thinking voting for brexit will address those things then you are insane. In terms of migrants the EU may treat them badly but Britain does so and did so before and how anyone can imagine that a leave vote that has been fought largely on immigration would lead to better treatment for migrants is beyond me.

Who said that voting for Brexit will address those things? I said arguing for leaving the EU provides a basis for attacking the confederacy of capitalists that does those things. It provides a platform for distinguishing international working class solidarity from international capitalist solidarity. You do that by attacking xenophobia on your home grounds; by attacking your own bourgeoisie's role in all those areas.

S. Artesian

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by S. Artesian on June 24, 2016

BBC is forecasting that "Leave" will win. And before the shitstorm recriminations start, no I'm not happy about it. Not sad about it, either.

I think it's a disgrace that the "left" ceded the platform of opposition to xenophobic elements. It staggers me that the so-called radicals, anarchists, etc. did not or would not perceive the economic distress that fueled "Brexit," recognize that that distress would only strengthen and make the class conscious argument for leaving as a move against the mutual aid society of the bourgeoisie.

Noah Fence

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Noah Fence on June 24, 2016

Good morning S. Got up at 4 after 2 hours sleep in order to witness the farce. As an absolute refuser in the 'people power'(lol) element of liberal democracy I wouldn't have voted either way even under threat of an acid bath. The xenophobes will do a brief dance of joy preemptive to their realisation that immigration will continue in a big way and the liberals will have a quick chat about it at the farmers market tomorrow before carrying on with their self absorbed existence. The general working class will continue to get shafted whatever view they held. What a complete load of old bollocks.

radicalgraffiti

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by radicalgraffiti on June 24, 2016

S. Artesian

BBC is forecasting that "Leave" will win. And before the shitstorm recriminations start, no I'm not happy about it. Not sad about it, either.

I think it's a disgrace that the "left" ceded the platform of opposition to xenophobic elements. It staggers me that the so-called radicals, anarchists, etc. did not or would not perceive the economic distress that fueled "Brexit," recognize that that distress would only strengthen and make the class conscious argument for leaving as a move against the mutual aid society of the bourgeoisie.

bexit was always racism and could never have been anything but racism from the start, no one ceded a fucking thing, you just didn't understand the situation

potrokin

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by potrokin on June 24, 2016

S. Artesian

Not sad about it, either.

You should be, looks like it may well be a shift further to the right and Britain will now be more of a backwater than it already is.

radicalgraffiti

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by radicalgraffiti on June 24, 2016

Noah Fence

Yo, RG, did you just up vote me?

i don't think i i've vote on your posts for months

Noah Fence

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Noah Fence on June 24, 2016

Aw shame, I thought we could patch things up and embark on a beautiful friendship. I don't mind strong disagreement on certain topics but I don't like general disagreeableness out of resentment or just for the sake of it. I realise I'm guilty of the latter so, you know, sorry about that.

S. Artesian

7 years 9 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by S. Artesian on June 24, 2016

potrokin

S. Artesian

Not sad about it, either.

You should be, looks like it may well be a shift further to the right and Britain will now be more of a backwater than it already is.

And you think that wouldn't happen with a "REMAIN" vote? Talk about not understanding what's behind this.

jef costello

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by jef costello on June 24, 2016

That wasn't a very good post from me, a little bit past my bedtime.
S. Artesian

Of course I never said the EU was responsible for the collapse, anymore than I would say the EU was responsible for its expansion. Get that, I never said that? I said that the price the Troika extracted from the Irish government caused hundreds of thousands to emigrate. Get it?

If that's your only point then yes, you're right that austerity is a condtition of the bailout,

In which case don't take the bailout and surely if the Irish govt had taken a bailout without the EU it would have been similarly tough as it would have been imposed by the international markets? Or would itbe that without the EU there would have been no celtic tiger so there would have been no overheated economy to fall into recession?

The Central Statistics Office estimated that 34,500 people left the country from April 2009 – 2010, the largest net emigration since 1989. However, only 27,700 of these are Irish nationals, an increase of 12,400 since 2006. It's also notable that more people went somewhere other than the UK, EU or US, traditional destinations for Irish emigrants.

Two things: Devaluing the currency does not destroy international credit ratings. Repudiating the debt generally means a country can't access the international capital markets. Currency devaluation may, or may not, cause a country to pay higher interest rates. Secondly, the Greek crisis is not a balance of payments crisis, FFS.

Yes, I forgot to add cancelling their debts. It wasn't a balance of payments crisis but being unable to pay your debts tends to have a negative effect on international trade and as Greece has had a negative balance of trade for the last ten years it would have had trouble asking for more credit to pay for those imports.

Who said that voting for Brexit will address those things? I said arguing for leaving the EU provides a basis for attacking the confederacy of capitalists that does those things. It provides a platform for distinguishing international working class solidarity from international capitalist solidarity. You do that by attacking xenophobia on your home grounds; by attacking your own bourgeoisie's role in all those areas.

I disagree with the idea that by seperating from one authority we make it easier to break free from another. Especially when it's the result of an election called by the bourgeoisie and funded by them. I think all the arguments on that score have been made by others but I'll read any counterarguments that you have.

Noah Fence

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Noah Fence on June 24, 2016

Cameron resigns

Schmoopie

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Schmoopie on June 24, 2016

The British working class make a tactical alignment with the petit bourgeoisie and vote for the UK to leave the European Union.

The European stock markets have reacted negatively to the referendum result. The London Stock Exchange is down almost 7%. To put this in context, on the day of the August Riot, 2011, the LSE saw 4% falls.

Steven.

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Steven. on June 24, 2016

I guess as the result was Leave we are now going to have at least two years of constant talking about this. I'm not looking forward to that.

no1

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by no1 on June 24, 2016

I think I'm going to leave the UK. Can't bear Farage and Gove being on the news all the time.

Noah Fence

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Noah Fence on June 24, 2016

no1

I think I'm going to leave the UK. Can't bear Farage and Gove being on the news all the time.

What aboutCorbyn and McDonell? Or are they allowed?

potrokin

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by potrokin on June 24, 2016

Schmoopie

The British working class make a tactical alignment with the petit bourgeoisie and vote for the UK to leave the European Union.

The European stock markets have reacted negatively to the referendum result. The London Stock Exchange is down almost 7%. To put this in context, on the day of the August Riot, 2011, the LSE saw 4% falls.

Ironically, the Euro is doing much better than the Pound http://www.x-rates.com/graph/?from=EUR&to=GBP&amount=1

potrokin

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by potrokin on June 24, 2016

Leave campaign already back-tracking on promises

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-result-nigel-farage-nhs-pledge-disowns-350-million-pounds-a7099906.html

Noah Fence

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Noah Fence on June 24, 2016

You can't judge the markets based on today. That's just daft.

potrokin

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by potrokin on June 24, 2016

Noah Fence

Cameron resigns

Yep, and he's handing over power. Looks like Boris Johnson is our next PM then.

Auld-bod

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Auld-bod on June 24, 2016

The World Service last night suggested that Boris and Gove wanted Cameron to continue only if he was prepared to purge his cabinet and put in their place men, including Gove to negotiate the UK’s withdrawal from the EU. Cameron presumably thought this was adding insult to injury (so he will not be ‘porked’ by pigs).

Best laugh so far - the zombie Tebbit on telly claiming the market fall was all George Osborne’s fault (the rotten trouble maker).

Bambuľka kvantová

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Bambuľka kvantová on June 24, 2016

This comment under Abbott's article in the guardian today indicates which way the political empowerment is going to go now:

"English nationalism is the new normal. Corbyn, as an internationalist and an universalist, can never connect with that. That’s why he needs to follow Cameron and resign as soon as possible.

Post-Corbyn, Brexit might actually not be the worst thing for social democracy. That path can only be taken on a national level, with protectionist policies, and the EU made that impossible.

We need a new Labour leadership, who can join the dots between nationalism and social democracy. The English have embraced nationalism, but they haven’t embraced neoliberal economics or inequality."
Does this connection of nationalism and socialism ring the bell?...

Thanks everyone who dared to make their hands dirty and voted Remain.

Noah Fence

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Noah Fence on June 24, 2016

potrokin

Noah Fence

Cameron resigns

Yep, and he's handing over power. Looks like Boris Johnson is our next PM then.

Excellent, can't wait for PMQs, comedy gold! I know the toff bashing prejudice of Libcom will spit it's dummy out at this but Boris is good entertainment and a lot more fun than old Jezza. None of them are gonna serve us and (in a soap opera kind of way) I like Boris so bring him on.

Spikymike

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Spikymike on June 24, 2016

SA makes a valid if not original observation in their post no 118 about the ''..economic distress that fueled Brexit'' and expresses his ''disgust'' at the failure of the ''left'' to cede the Out campaign to the 'right' but displays some ignorance of the realities of the political situation (including the history and composition of the actual Left) in the UK and the weakness and divisiveness of genuine communist politics internationally. I think a more realistic assessment should have moved SA towards an active Abstentionist (opposition to both capitalist options) campaign rather than what I take to be his imaginary communist 'open-borders' Out campaign.
SA and Steven seem at times to have been arguing 'at cross purposes'' but neither should be accused of dishonesty in an overheated discussion involving more concern to defend every dot and comma of personal statements made rather than a common effort to reach clarity.

Noah Fence

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Noah Fence on June 24, 2016

That is very well put Spikeymike. Bang on.

factvalue

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by factvalue on June 24, 2016

Auld-bod

Best laugh so far - the zombie Tebbit on telly claiming the market fall was all George Osborne’s fault (the rotten trouble maker).

Fuck me is he still alive, he must look like Davros by now. A mate of mine back in the 80s trained his dog to go ape-shit if you said 'Tebbit'.

factvalue

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by factvalue on June 24, 2016

Noah Fence

..I like Boris so bring him on.

Right enough, sure what's not to like? Why do you like him? Sorry, derail (is that what that means I've never known?) - new 'Why do you like that terrible asshole BJ' thread?

Noah Fence

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Noah Fence on June 24, 2016

1. His hair

2. His constant smug but playful smile

3. He's posh

4. He's funny

5. And this is the best one - HE'S A TORY!

That's right, he's a posh Tory. Despite all that most anarchists say and although it totally contrary to the anarchist position, the majority of anarchists hate Tories more than Labour. They also can't stand posh people. Total hypocracy, so it adds a good degree of topspin to my preference that he's going to get up the noses of the average British Libcommer.

factvalue

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by factvalue on June 24, 2016

Yeah I get all that but he's a total fucking evil twat so why do you like him?

Auld-bod

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Auld-bod on June 24, 2016

Best of bull: John Redwood on the telly today, 12.40pm - “The sacred flame of the people’s will”.

Boris (the good) he’s a witty fellow who is good at acting the buffoon.

Boris (the bad) like Trump he is a wealthy, expensively educated actor; their right wing populism appeals to working class people who they hold in utter contempt.

factvalue

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by factvalue on June 24, 2016

Auld-bod

Best of bull: John Redwood on the telly today, 12.40pm - “The sacred flame of the people’s will”.

Is that what Redwood shouts when he lights his farts or was it a racing tip?

Auld-bod

Boris (the good) he’s a witty fellow who is good at acting the buffoon.

A half truth at best surely?

Scallywag

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Scallywag on June 24, 2016

Ugh the Scottish nationalists are kicking up a fuss again, I'll be hated if I don't vote this time. Sister just had a go at me for not voting in the EU ref lol

Noah Fence

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Noah Fence on June 24, 2016

factvalue

Yeah I get all that but he's a total fucking evil twat so why do you like him?

It's not a matter of liking. There has to be someone and I prefer him. And it's a bit unfair of you to ask why 'I like him' just because I said I like him. You're starting to some like a fucking v•~#+. I mean, asking reasonable questions is typical of you extremists.

Scallywag

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Scallywag on June 24, 2016

Does anyone know the turnout for the referendum?

Steven.

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Steven. on June 24, 2016

Scallywag

Does anyone know the turnout for the referendum?

Turnout was 72.2%, meaning about 33 million votes. But of course the population is 64 million, so about half the population voted

Schmoopie

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Schmoopie on June 24, 2016

No Fences:

You can't judge the markets based on today. That's just daft.

We are not judging the markets; the markets are the judge.

Brace yourself for a Black Friday on Wall Street.

CNN Money

Scallywag

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Scallywag on June 24, 2016

Steven.

Scallywag

Does anyone know the turnout for the referendum?

Turnout was 72.2%, meaning about 33 million votes. But of course the population is 64 million, so about half the population voted

Cheers Steven.

I'll take that as a sign that half the population are secret anarchists! :D

Burgers

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Burgers on June 24, 2016

Scallywag

Does anyone know the turnout for the referendum?

Total Electorate: 46,500,001
12,948,018 didn't take part in voting for capitalism for whatever reason.
Rejected ballots 25,359.
51.9% didn't vote to leave and 48.1% didn't vote to remain.
27.85% 12,948,018 didn't take part for whatever reason in the sham
34.71% 16,141,241 voted to remain
37.44% 17,410,742 voted to leave

But doesn't take into account those not on the electoral role or who arent entitled to vote

Scallywag

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Scallywag on June 24, 2016

Burgers

Scallywag

Does anyone know the turnout for the referendum?

Total Electorate: 46,500,001
12,948,018 didn't take part in voting for capitalism and ballots for whatever reason.
Rejected ballots 25,359.
51.9% didn't vote to leave and 48.1% didn't vote to remain.
27.85% 12,948,018 didn't take part for whatever reason in the sham
34.71% 16,141,241 voted to remain
37.44% 17,410,742 voted to leave

But doesn't take into account those not on the electoral role or who arent entitled to vote

I thought everyone had to be on it.

Steven.

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Steven. on June 24, 2016

They do try to force you to be on it, but you cannot be on it (I avoided it for a long time but got forced on a couple of years ago, but then dropped off with the electoral roll changes of the last government, and so far haven't been forced back on)

Also lots of people were not eligible to vote in this election (namely EU migrants living in the UK)

Scallywag

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Scallywag on June 24, 2016

Steven.

They do try to force you to be on it, but you cannot be on it (I avoided it for a long time but got forced on a couple of years ago, but then dropped off with the electoral roll changes of the last government, and so far haven't been forced back on)

Also lots of people were eligible to vote in this election (namely EU migrants living in the UK)

I joined it when I moved into uni accommodation as they had sent letters out to everyone, and there was the threat of a possible fine in the letter.

Burgers

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Burgers on June 24, 2016

Like Steven, I've spent many years off the electoral roll and often just ignored the letter threats without any issues.

klas batalo

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by klas batalo on June 24, 2016

wish you could do so in the US, or fall / get off... unfortunately once you are on you are on and your registration information is public information which can be used to dox you.

S. Artesian

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by S. Artesian on June 24, 2016

klas batalo

wish you could do so in the US, or fall / get off... unfortunately once you are on you are on and your registration information is public information which can be used to dox you.

You are not compelled to register in the US; if you decide to register, you do not need to declare a party; you are not required to vote. You are registered to vote, but if you move from your location, the registration does not automatically move with you, you have to move it.

Schmoopie

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Schmoopie on June 24, 2016

I thought everyone had to be on it [the electoral role].

The following people are not eligible to vote:

– anyone who is not on the electoral register on polling day
– people from abroad, (other than EU citizens, citizens of the Republic of Ireland and qualifying Commonwealth citizens who are resident in the UK - see above)
in England, Wales and Northern Ireland, people aged under 18 cannot vote
in Scotland, people under 16 cannot vote in Scottish Parliament or Scottish local government elections and people under 18 cannot vote in UK General elections or European elections.
– most sentenced prisoners. However, the European Court of Human Rights has decided that this may breach human rights. A prisoner who is not able to vote should get specialist advice.
– people who are detained in a psychiatric hospital as a consequence of criminal activity
– certain people convicted of corrupt or illegal electoral practices
peers of the realm who remain members of the House of Lords (for British parliamentary elections only)
– people who have a severe mental illness and are unable to understand the voting procedure.

jesuithitsquad

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by jesuithitsquad on June 24, 2016

moving on to important matters, donald trump thinks his golf courses will benefit from a devalued pound.

Pennoid

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Pennoid on June 24, 2016

Brexit: Make Donald Trump's Golf Courses Less Mediocre Again.

mikail firtinaci

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by mikail firtinaci on June 24, 2016

I don't agree with everything -and especially its politics- in this article, but what do you people think about this:

It became clear early on in the night that Leave had extraordinary levels of support in the North East, taking 70% of the votes in Hartlepool and 61% in Sunderland. It subsequently emerged that Wales had voted for Leave overall, especially strongly in the South around areas such as Newport. It is easy to focus on the recent history of Tory-led austerity when analysing this, as if anger towards elites and immigrants was simply an effect of public spending cuts of the past 6 years or (more structurally) the collapse of Britain’s pre-2007 debt-driven model of growth.

But consider the longer history of these regions as well. They are well-recognised as Labour’s historic heartlands, sitting on coalfields and/or around ship-building cities. Indeed, outside of London and Scotland, they were amongst the only blobs of Labour red on the 2015 electoral map. There is no reason to think that they would not stay red if an election were held in the autumn. But in the language of Marxist geographers, they have had no successful ‘spatial fix’ since the stagflation crisis of the 1970s. Thatcherism gutted them with pit-closures and monetarism, but generated no private sector jobs to fill the space. The entrepreneurial investment that neoliberals always believe is just around the corner never materialised.

Labour’s solution was to spread wealth in their direction using fiscal policy: public sector back-office jobs were strategically relocated to South Wales and the North East to alleviate deindustrialisation, while tax credits made low productivity service work more socially viable. This effectively created a shadow welfare state that was never publicly spoken of, and co-existed with a political culture which heaped scorn on dependency. Peter Mandelson’s infamous comment, that the Labour heartlands could be depended on to vote Labour no matter what, “because they’ve got nowhere else to go” spoke of a dominant attitude. In Nancy Fraser’s terms, New Labour offered ‘redistribution’ but no ‘recognition’.

This cultural contradiction wasn’t sustainable and nor was the geographic one. Not only was the ‘spatial fix’ a relatively short-term one, seeing as it depended on rising tax receipts from the South East and a centre left government willing to spread money quite lavishly (albeit, discretely), it also failed to deliver what many Brexit-voters perhaps crave the most: the dignity of being self-sufficient, not necessarily in a neoliberal sense, but certainly in a communal, familial and fraternal sense.

source: http://www.perc.org.uk/project_posts/thoughts-on-the-sociology-of-brexit/

mikail firtinaci

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by mikail firtinaci on June 24, 2016

And this was interesting also, something I never read anywhere else:

By the same token, it seems unlikely that those in these regions (or Cornwall or other economically peripheral spaces) would feel ‘grateful’ to the EU for subsidies. Knowing that your business, farm, family or region is dependent on the beneficence of wealthy liberals is unlikely to be a recipe for satisfaction (see James Meek’s recent essay in the London Review of Books on Europhobic farmers who receive vast subsidies from the EU). More bizarrely, it has since emerged that regions with the closest economic ties to the EU in general (and not just of the subsidised variety) were most likely to vote Leave.

While it may be one thing for an investment banker to understand that they ‘benefit from the EU’ in regulatory terms, it is quite another to encourage poor and culturally marginalised people to feel grateful towards the elites that sustain them through handouts, month by month. Resentment develops not in spite of this generosity, but arguably because of it. This isn’t to discredit what the EU does in terms of redistribution, but pointing to handouts is a psychologically and politically naïve basis on which to justify remaining in the EU.

In this context, the slogan ‘take back control’ was a piece of political genius. It worked on every level between the macroeconomic and the psychoanalytic. Think of what it means on an individual level to rediscover control. To be a person without control (for instance to suffer incontinence or a facial tick) is to be the butt of cruel jokes, to be potentially embarrassed in public. It potentially reduces one’s independence. What was so clever about the language of the Leave campaign was that it spoke directly to this feeling of inadequacy and embarrassment, then promised to eradicate it. The promise had nothing to do with economics or policy, but everything to do with the psychological allure of autonomy and self-respect. Farrage’s political strategy was to take seriously communities who’d otherwise been taken for granted for much of the past 50 years.

This doesn’t necessarily have to translate into nationalistic pride or racism (although might well do), but does at the very least mean no longer being laughed at. Those that have ever laughed at ‘chavs’ (such as the millionaire stars of Little Britain) have something to answer for right now, as Rhian E. Jones’ Clampdown argued. The willingness of Nigel Farrage to weather the scornful laughter of metropolitan liberals (for instance through his periodic appearances on Have I Got News For You) could equally have made him look brave in the eyes of many potential Leave voters. I can’t help feeling that every smug, liberal, snobbish barb that Ian Hislop threw his way on that increasingly hateful programme was ensuring that revenge would be all the greater, once it arrived. The giggling, from which Boris Johnson also benefited handsomely, needs to stop.

S. Artesian

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by S. Artesian on June 24, 2016

How about this:

40+ years of Labor and the Tory parties knocking the snot out of the workers plus...

40+ years of deconstruction of the working class brought about by attempts to combine advanced productivity with lower wages outside the UK... the infamous export, and reimport, of capital, plus....

35+ years of the "United, Imperial Europe" being coincident with austerity programs, shrinking opportunity for "stable," i.e. industrial, employment plus...

35 + years of Labor genuflecting before the altar of Britannia, capitulating, for example to the Nationality Act, to the war with Argentina instead of advocating defeat as the lesser evil, allowing Thatcher to import coal from Poland during the miners' strike, engaging in the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan; supporting attacks on Libya, Syria plus...

35+ years of "playing the race card" plus...

?? years of the left not speaking forthrightly against the EU as an imperialist project, a capitalist union, designed to silence, lock-up the working class with "rights," "protections" while smothering the working classes with cheaper labor supplies exploited without labor protections; designed to enhance uniformity among capitals by introducing greater disparity, fractions among workers-- EU vs. non-EU; illegal vs. legal; plus...

8 years of protecting the posh, the punters, the toffs of the City EQUALS

Some seriously damaged chickens coming home to roost.

How about that?

Ed

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Ed on June 24, 2016

Just got back from the Defend Migrants demo in London.. was quite good considering it was organised outside the traditional left channels: a lot of people (I'm rubbish at estimating these things.. I'll say high hundreds?), very lively and involved various migrant groups and organisations.. hopefully a good first step.. Was also my son's first demonstration.. :)

Saw a bit of a scuffle between one demonstrator and some other guy talking shit..

Some pictures (not mine, pulled from internet):

Schmoopie

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Schmoopie on June 24, 2016

Sorry to hark on about stock market reactions to the UK referendum result but I'm a bit flummoxed. Whilst the French, German, US and UK main stock markets have shown major loses, the BBC Global 30 has today shown a significant 4.42% gain in value. This index is a composite of 30 of the largest global companies. From this we can deduce that as far as big capital globally is concerned, the vote by the Great British Public is viewed as a positive.

potrokin

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by potrokin on June 24, 2016

Cornwall wants to have it's cake and eat it.Wonder how many other parts of the UK will feel the same? What fucking idiots-

independent.co.uk

Cornwall voted for Brexit, and is now pleading for reassurance it won’t be ‘worse off’
Will Worley

The Cornish council has issued a plea for “protection” following the United Kingdom’s vote to leave the European Union.

Cornwall, which has a poor economy and as such has received millions of pounds in subsidies from the EU each year for over a decade, voted decisively to Leave.

But this money is now threatened following the severing of ties with the EU.

John Pollard, the leader of Cornwall council said: “Now that we know the UK will be leaving the EU we will be taking urgent steps to ensure that the UK Government protects Cornwall’s position in any negotiations.

“We will be insisting that Cornwall receives investment equal to that provided by the EU programme which has averaged £60m per year over the last ten years.”

European money has helped develop infrastructure, universities and broadband internet in the county. From 2007 to 2013, €654m was given to pay for these projects, the Financial Times reported.

But a statement on the council website posted on Friday said prior to the referendum said the county was reassured by the Leave side that withdrawing from the EU would not affect the funding already allocated by Brussels.

Leave campaigners also promised the county would not be worse off in terms of the investment it receives. “We are seeking urgent confirmation from Ministers that this is the case,” the statement added.

Cornwall, which has a population of just 530,000 people, voted resoundingly to leave the EU, with 56.52 per cent opting for leave – more than the national average - compared to 43.48 per cent voting to remain.

The council said they will now be studying the impact of Brexit on Cornwall, “now and in the future”.

While the majority of Cornwall’s MPs supported Brexit, there have long been warnings on the possible consequences to the county of its effects.

In 2014,Jonathan Lindsell, author of a report on industries benefit from the EU, told the Western Morning News: “Cornwall is a major beneficiary of EU spending so if Britain were to leave then the Treasury would have to take great care in ensuring its local economy was not crippled as a result.

“Not only do Cornwall’s many farmers and fishermen benefit from the Common Agricultural Policy and Common Fisheries Policy respectively, but the county receives tens of millions of pounds a year in structural and convergence funds to support local economic growth and communities.

“In the 2014-2020 budget, Cornwall has been allocated 592 million euros from the convergence fund to assist with further development. If Britain leaves the EU before 2020 the government should seriously consider keeping this fund up.”

Schmoopie

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Schmoopie on June 24, 2016

Apparently an unprecedented number of Britons have today searched on Google to find out what exactly the European Union is. Just got to love the sham that is called Democracy.

S. Artesian

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by S. Artesian on June 24, 2016

Schmoopie

Apparently an unprecedented number of Britons have today searched on Google to find out what exactly the European Union is. Just got to love the sham that is called Democracy.

One of those must have been Farage.

Another, Johnson.

And finally, Cameron.

Steven.

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Steven. on June 24, 2016

Mikail, that is a bit of a factor, some people just wanting to give the government/the political establishment a bloody nose. And of course the maybe 50,000 people that form part of the far left voted Brexit for their left nationalist reasons. But the main reason driving the Leave vote was dislike of immigrants:

See these characters from Barnsley for example:
https://www.facebook.com/Channel4News/videos/10153842562976939/

petey

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by petey on June 24, 2016

Ed

Was also my son's first demonstration.. :)

:D

S. Artesian

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by S. Artesian on June 24, 2016

Yes indeed, immigration was no 1. No 2 however was the economy-- and there was the opening, if anyone had had the sense to drive the truck through it.

Steven.

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Steven. on June 24, 2016

S. Artesian

Yes indeed, immigration was no 1. No 2 however was the economy-- and there was the opening, if anyone had had the sense to drive the truck through it.

Not sure what you mean here?

factvalue

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by factvalue on June 24, 2016

SA: Worrying about 'the economy' being so normalised these days because our own reproduction and capital's have become almost indistinguishable, making it difficult to withstand the shifty displacement of boss v worker to worker v worker and on to blaming 'the other' worker or as hierarchies further saturate us, the line manager, or anything but the underlying causal factor, Boris and Trump, Golden Dawn and AfD, Jobbik and Fidesz and Farages and Le Pen have it easy.

2 W

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by 2 W on June 24, 2016

2 Etonians in a bar decide to have a debate on Europe, after they've finished their pint they step outside, everyone is fighting and kicking the crap out of each other, the 2 Etonians, shake their head at the unruly behaviour, sidestep the violence and thank each other for the heated but healthy conversation. They bid each other good night and retire to their comfortable residences commenting before they part that they should have drinks together again, sooner rather than later. The other agrees and retires to his drawing room, his security guard closes the gate behind him, he moves indoors, draws the curtains, pours himself a glass of port and retires to his favourite chair.

Schmoopie

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Schmoopie on June 25, 2016

Steven:

...the main reason driving the Leave vote was dislike of immigrants

Understand that these surveys can be deliberately biased. Today I was interviewed on the street by a hack from the local newspaper. He asked me what I thought the major factor was that led to the Brexit win. Before I had an opportunity to answer his question he stepped in with his proposal:

Immigration?

P.S. You say, 'dislike of immigrants'; the survey says, 'Immigration'. That is your bias.

Craftwork

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Craftwork on June 25, 2016

Nice, I was at the London demo as well. I'd estimate just under 2,000 in attendance (our expectation was no more than a couple hundred at best! Facebook number of 'goings' = 1,430) - no official support from the big, union-backed fronts (e.g. Stand Up to Racism), just the joint initiative of people in rs21, London Antifascists, Jewdas, and Movement for Justice, with support from Freedom News/Bookshop, London Anarchist Federation, Radical Assembly, Clapton Ultras, Sisters Uncut, English Collective of Prostitutes, Brick Lane Debates, Right to Remain, Sex Worker Open University, Antiuniversity Now, NCAFC, Kent Anti-Racism Network, Dywizjon 161, Razem Londyn, Plan C London, Colectivo Anticapitalista Londres, United Voices of the World union, Lesbians and Gays Support the Migrants, the Psychedelic Society and a bunch of pissed-off young people.

Best speaker: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOXNHpPD4Bw

S. Artesian

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by S. Artesian on June 25, 2016

Steven.

S. Artesian

Yes indeed, immigration was no 1. No 2 however was the economy-- and there was the opening, if anyone had had the sense to drive the truck through it.

Not sure what you mean here?

I mean, seriously-- this is the culmination of a 40 year long process that has been pretty relentless in its assault on the working class; in its appeals to xenophobia to immobilize the class; to disarm, dismantle and pulverize the class through what is mistakenly called "deindustrialization," and capital flight; and the flagrant bailing out of banks, and financial institutions in order to preserve the European Union itself.

So clearly, there was an opportunity to point all that out AND refute the nonsense spewed by the "official" leave.org about having sterling 350 million to devote to the NHS, simply by pointing out, not that in reality "Britain" gets more from EU than it puts in, but that the bourgeoisie qua bourgeoisie aren't going to devote an extra penny to NHS whether Britain exists in or exits from the EU. Only disentangling from the class of capitalists-- by challenging the entire bourgeois program for power; membership in the EU; membership in NATO; military adventures in the Middle East, Asia, and Africa; only in opposition to the "economics" of capitalism, which means rejecting the EU and nationalism in its neo-liberal, or populist, or social democratic iterations, is there the possibility for something other than the "no future" which is the only promise the bourgeoisie have ever kept.

Moreover, right about now, I think the left should flip the script of the whole "reclaim our government, our nation, our borders " bullshit narrative, and to take advantage of the disorder in the ruling institutions, and the hypocrisy of the UKIP, demand a referendum for Britain's a) withdrawal from NATO-- no foreign military bases on British soil and b) closing, cessation and repatriation of all British military personnel, bases, or activities outside the borders of Britain.

Or, shorter version: what factvalue said.

ajjohnstone

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by ajjohnstone on June 25, 2016

Does anyone know the turnout for the referendum?

Only 28,033 spoiled voting papers out of 33,578,016 votes cast, which is 0.08%.

Non-voters were 28% of the 46,501,241 registered voters or about 13 million.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum,_2016

fingers malone

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by fingers malone on June 25, 2016

Steven.

Also lots of people were eligible to vote in this election (namely EU migrants living in the UK)

EU migrants living in the UK were NOT allowed to vote in the referendum. Unlike the referendum on Scottish independance if I remember right.

fingers malone

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by fingers malone on June 25, 2016

One thing I didn't see discussed at all during the referendum was the effect this might have in Ireland. If border controls are reintroduced then that means policing them along the north-south border. There are also lots of implications for the peace process which I don't understand too well, but I'm now realising this could all be quite serious and it's notable that in England that appeared to be totally left out of the discussion.

Sinn Fein have called for a referendum on a united Ireland.

Schmoopie

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Schmoopie on June 25, 2016

Sorry to hark on about stock market reactions to the UK referendum result but I'm a bit flummoxed. Whilst the French, German, US and UK main stock markets have shown major loses, the BBC Global 30 has today shown a significant 4.42% gain in value. This index is a composite of 30 of the largest global companies. From this we can deduce that as far as big capital globally is concerned, the vote by the Great British Public is viewed as a positive.

Is this result really a victory of nationalism over internationalism? Or is it in fact a step in the supercession of international capital over national capital?

Noah Fence

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Noah Fence on June 25, 2016

It's the victory of dickheads over idiots.

Spikymike

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Spikymike on June 25, 2016

Always worth going back and re-reading some of the posts in this discussion - surely there is some relevance in and connections between the content in particular of Mikail's posts 164/165, SA's post 166 and factvalue's post 176 even if SA's subsequent suggestions for a tactical campaign are questionable?

Steven.

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Steven. on June 25, 2016

fingers malone

Steven.

Also lots of people were eligible to vote in this election (namely EU migrants living in the UK)

EU migrants living in the UK were NOT allowed to vote in the referendum. Unlike the referendum on Scottish independance if I remember right.

sorry that was an error of my voice software. That was meant to say "lots of people were not eligible to vote" (I've now edited the original)

fingers malone

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by fingers malone on June 25, 2016

I thought it might be an error but loads of people do actually think that EU migrants had the vote. Some people have told me they thought this is why the remain vote was so high in London.

potrokin

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by potrokin on June 25, 2016

independent.co.uk

France says it will let Calais refugees reach England if UK votes for a Brexit
Lizzie Dearden Thursday 3 March 2016

France could end British border controls in Calais and allow thousands of refugees to cross the Channel in the event of a Brexit, a minister has said.

Emmanuel Macron, the French finance minister, told the Financial Times that a "leave" vote in June's EU referendum may stop “Le Touquet” agreement, which allows British immigration checkpoints in Calais and Dunkirk and French checks in Dover.

“The day this relationship unravels, migrants will no longer be in Calais,” he said.

Current regulations mean that entry to the UK can be refused before entering the Channel Tunnel or boarding ferries, rather than once passengers exit on British soil the other side.

It enables lorries to be searched and scanned for stowaways, with any migrants found arrested or removed from the area by police and drivers fined.

Moving the Border Force checks to the UK could mean that refugees would be the other side of the Channel before being discovered, giving them the right to apply for asylum and stay in the country until a decision is made.

Around 4,000 migrants and refugees are currently living in a camp known as the “Jungle” in Calais, with more in Dunkirk, all trying to reach England.

French authorities are gradually demolishing hundreds of tents and shacks, claiming they have sufficient accommodation to rehome migrants in other areas of the country, but activists claim they have underestimated numbers and will leave thousands without shelter and even more desperate to leave.

David Cameron was accused of “scaremongering” when he claimed that a Brexit could see the camps move to Britain last month.

The Vote Leave campaign group said Downing Street’s warning that the French would “love to pull out” of the 2003 treaty had “no grounding in reality”, while Eurosceptic Tory MP David Davis branded the prospect “preposterous”.

At the time, the French interior ministry pointed to a statement by interior minister Bernard Cazeneuve saying there were "no plans" to change the agreement, which was drawn up as part of a bilateral treaty.

Migrants watch a hut burn as police officers clear part of the 'jungle' migrant camp on February 29, 2016 in Calais, France

Sir Peter Ricketts, the former UK ambassador to France and national security advisor, warned that the French government was under pressure from opposition parties to scrap it.

“If the context changed and Britain made a major decision to leave the EU I think it’s highly likely France would review its position too," he told BBC Radio 4.

Downing Street said the Prime Minister and François Hollande were expected to discuss the situation in Calais at the Anglo-French summit today.

Mr Cameron is expected to make a joint announcement with French President in Amiens on security and other benefits of remaining within the EU.

Serge Forward

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Serge Forward on June 25, 2016

Schmoopie

You say, 'dislike of immigrants'; the survey says, 'Immigration'. That is your bias.

You're kidding right? You really don't think that a sizable number of people who voted 'leave' don't like immigrants? I can see you're a real glass half full type.

Schmoopie

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Schmoopie on June 25, 2016

You really don't think that a sizable number of people who voted 'leave' don't like immigrants? I can see you're a real glass half full type.

I think a sizeable number may express that opinion in public but what they think in private is a completely different matter.

I met my 'uncle' Janos in the park on Friday morning. Jani moved to England from Hungary after the insurrection. He was beaming like a trooper. "They won't be coming over now... They turned the banana boat back this morning..." I asked him when they would be sending him back. He says, "Who me, I'm British!"

Half the story never gets told. That's our job as anarchists/communists: to tell the other half of the story, not repeat their lies.

Serge Forward

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Serge Forward on June 25, 2016

Well, if someone is anti-immigrant in public, then fuck knows what they are in private. Maybe your uncle's "banana boat" comment is a clue?

jesuithitsquad

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by jesuithitsquad on June 25, 2016

So a couple questions for UK posters:

1.) A lot of the US media coverage over the last 16 hours or so has revolved around the concept of a "sense of national regret." Do you think this is just a media narrative that has taken a few cases of remorse to extrapolate a larger phenomemon that doesn't really exist or do you get the sense this is a real thing?

2.) With the final vote of roughly 52-48% I can't help but wonder what the numbers would've looked like without the Jo Cox assassination? I mean, surely that pushed some lean "Leave" into the "Remain" camp, don't you think?

fingers malone

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by fingers malone on June 25, 2016

Can only give you a reply based on my impressions, but will try.

There do seem to be people who voted Leave because they didn't want Remain to 'win big' but didn't think Leave would actually win, but I have no idea at all how many people that is, if it's a significant number or not.

But the people who are now shouting 'Out Out Out' or 'go home' in the faces of anyone they think is foreign, no those people are not regretting anything. Or putting up posters saying 'no more Polish vermin' or putting abusive letters through people's doors in Peterborough, telling them to leave the city.

Yes I'm sure some more people voted remain after the Jo Cox murder but again I have no idea of numbers.

jesuithitsquad

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by jesuithitsquad on June 25, 2016

Thanks fingers-- yeah, i realized shortly after posting that if you reversed the question to ask about the mentality of, say, Trump supporters I could give you my impressions and analysis but it would all be based on speculation since I don't really have many interactions with openly Trump people.

fingers malone

But the people who are now shouting 'Out Out Out' or 'go home' in the faces of anyone they think is foreign, no those people are not regretting anything. Or putting up posters saying 'no more Polish vermin' or putting abusive letters through people's doors in Peterborough, telling them to leave the city.

Yes I'm sure some more people voted remain after the Jo Cox murder but again I have no idea of numbers.

Christ, this sounds awful. Solidarity from here to there--for what it's worth. I think it was pretty obvious in advance that a victory for "Leave" would embolden racists and nationalism, which makes even qualified support from people who believe in emancipatory politics inexcusable.

To make further use of the Trump analogy, it's like those idiotic "lefties" who think a Trump victory would be a good thing because the whole system will crumble.

Auld-bod

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Auld-bod on June 25, 2016

The Leave campaign have already gone back on two election pledges:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/25/leave-campaign-rows-back-key-pledges-immigration-nhs-spending

The referendum outcome is a lesson in, ‘don’t buy a pig in a poke’.

(Don't buy a pig until you have seen it, is enshrined in British commercial law as 'caveat emptor' - Latin for 'let the buyer beware'. This remains the guiding principle of commerce in many countries and, in essence, supports the view that if you buy something you take responsibility to make sure it is what you intended to buy.)

So what does the Brexit beast look like – nobody knows (though it’ll be a capitalist mash-up).

Schmoopie

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Schmoopie on June 25, 2016

Well, if someone is anti-immigrant in public, then fuck knows what they are in private. Maybe your uncle's "banana boat" comment is a clue?

As a 14 year old, he fought the invading Soviet Army. His actions speak louder than his words. I think you are all bluster.

mikail firtinaci

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by mikail firtinaci on June 25, 2016

jesuithitsquad

To make further use of the Trump analogy, it's like those idiotic "lefties" who think a Trump victory would be a good thing because the whole system will crumble.

I find it somehow naive to approach to bourgeois election/referendum results as "good" or "bad". If they are the biggest spectacles in capitalist democracies shouldn't they be analyzed better as artistic performances of the political segment of the rich?

Hence, if the republican party is not able to produce anything but Trump, if that sad anti-social creature is the only thing that American bourgeoisie can offer, then I think there are two crucial lessons here:

1- The bourgeoisie is losing its vision, sense, self-esteem and intelligence. This is a confirmation in the sphere of high politics of what proletarians are experiencing in their daily lives: the absolute senselessness, destructiveness and irrationality of capitalism.

2- This should be encouraging, if one is prepared to fight the state&capital, since it shows that the enemy is weak and can be taken down before it destroys humanity / it is scary, if communism as a goal is already given up and if the best one can expect is the best the capital can offer, and a slow and peaceful death, however possible that is while the world around is painfully dying already.

EDIT: I don't want to say that what communists (left or anarchist) lack is merely a will to fight. Unfortunately we also lack a strategy a generally implementable program for transitioning out of private property as well. Sadly in this respect we seem to share the same weakness with the bourgeoisie. They don't know to preserve capitalism, we don't know how to get rid of it...

Maclane Horton

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Maclane Horton on June 25, 2016

Two main currents can be identified on each side of the referendum vote.

OUT
On the OUT side were the feelings of anger and of fear.
Anger at falling living standards and gross social inequality.
Fear, an atavistic fear of loosing their livelihood or being supplanted by strangers – in this case migrant workers being used by capitalist employers to hold down wages and worsen conditions. An age old example of splitting the working class.

IN
On the IN side were the feelings of greed and fear.
Greed in the form of the triumphalism of those who think they are heading for the top of the ladder, more often than not deluded but they don’t know that yet.
Fear at the growth of racism either affecting them personally or destroying their community.

Juan Conatz

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Juan Conatz on June 25, 2016

Schmoopie

As a 14 year old, he fought the invading Soviet Army. His actions speak louder than his words. I think you are all bluster.

I don't know what that has anything to do with. If you're going around talking about "banana boats" and keeping the immigrants out, you're anti-immigrant. Doesn't matter if you're an immigrant yourself.

There's an immigrant/refugee from the Balkan Wars at my work. He loudly proclaims his admiration for Trump and looks forward to "building the wall" and kicking people out of the U.S. When I say to him he'll have to be one of the people to leave, he stares blankly like I've spoken Swahili. This anti-immigrant sentiment is clearly very specific to people who are not considered white here. In his mind he probably thinks (and is mostly correct) that Trump and his legion of doom are talking about Mexicans, Somalis, and Arabs.

Fleur

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Fleur on June 25, 2016

As a 14 year old, he fought the invading Soviet Army. His actions speak louder than his words. I think you are all bluster.

That doesn't mean he's not a racist.

Schmoopie

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Schmoopie on June 25, 2016

So much emphasis on the overt racism of a certain fringe of working class people but it is not words that turn us back at the border because of the colour of our skins. It is paid officials doing the job they're paid to do by the State. The racist murders are, by and large, carried out by the police, also doing the job they're paid for – to divide and rule us. Talk don't bother me
[youtube]UpBp5ze2n9M[/youtube]

Schmoopie

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Schmoopie on June 25, 2016

As a 14 year old, he fought the invading Soviet Army. His actions speak louder than his words. I think you are all bluster.

That doesn't mean he's not a racist.

No, you are right, but he will have to be answerable for what he is. Equally though, racists can keep their cards very close to their chests.

My original point is that the issue of immigration is being rammed down our throats and we should not be surprised if a few of our people start repeating it parrot fashion. It is not the real issue of this referendum.

Ed

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Ed on June 25, 2016

More reports via twitter of referendum-related racism..

petey

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by petey on June 25, 2016

fingers malone

But the people who are now shouting 'Out Out Out' or 'go home' in the faces of anyone they think is foreign, no those people are not regretting anything. Or putting up posters saying 'no more Polish vermin' or putting abusive letters through people's doors in Peterborough, telling them to leave the city.

i see Ed has referred to this just above.
there's a thread on urban now collecting examples. i had to stop reading, it's just enraging.

cactus9

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by cactus9 on June 25, 2016

jesuithitsquad

2.) With the final vote of roughly 52-48% I can't help but wonder what the numbers would've looked like without the Jo Cox assassination? I mean, surely that pushed some lean "Leave" into the "Remain" camp, don't you think?

I don't think people were putting the pieces together. They didn't think that their nice Portuguese neighbour was going to be affected. They didn't make the connection between UKIPs river of blood poster and Jo Cox's killing by a far right sympathiser. That's what propaganda does to people, it stops them thinking rationally and I think we have seen a triumph of propaganda here.

cactus9

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by cactus9 on June 25, 2016

Schmoopie

My original point is that the issue of immigration is being rammed down our throats and we should not be surprised if a few of our people start repeating it parrot fashion. It is not the real issue of this referendum.

I have seen and heard a few intelligent and potentially persuasive mentions of a left wing/ radical argument for leaving the EU. They generally struck me as undeveloped. This referendum was not fought over those issues and the exit will not be negotiated over those issues.

S. Artesian

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by S. Artesian on June 25, 2016

Ed-- post #205. Do you think you would not have to deal with that if the vote went 52-48 remain? Do your really think racism and xenophobia would have packed up and slipped away into the night?

I'm not asking if racists feel emboldened. Of course they do. But you have to confront that sooner rather than later. Any belief that a "remain" vote would have quelled xenophobic attacks is like, actually not "like" but rather is identical to a belief that the police will protect "free speech," "free assembly" and racial equality.

S. Artesian

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by S. Artesian on June 25, 2016

cactus9

Schmoopie

My original point is that the issue of immigration is being rammed down our throats and we should not be surprised if a few of our people start repeating it parrot fashion. It is not the real issue of this referendum.

I have seen and heard a few intelligent and potentially persuasive mentions of a left wing/ radical argument for leaving the EU. They generally struck me as undeveloped. This referendum was not fought over those issues and the exit will not be negotiated over those issues.

No, of course the exit won't be negotiated on those issues, because the ruling class is going to do the negotiating, right? But Britain's disengagement from the EU, along with incredible contortions the EU has gone through, making a shambles of its own refugee policy; it's assaults on the living standards of workers in order to preserve bankers and bondholders, is indicative that the existing institutions, relations. structures of capital, no longer correspond to the needs of accumulation; and that the needs of accumulation are more than ever in conflict with the limitations of both private property in the means of production, and the reproduction of the working class.

In or out of the EU, the bourgeoisie everywhere are forced to find ways to drive the cost of labor below its value; below what is necessary for its reproduction as a working class capable of yielding a level of surplus value that will also be adequate to levels of profitability. What's in the cards are continued assaults on workers' living and labor standards across the EU (and capitalism) as "economic adjustment" requires liquidation-- liquidation of jobs, liquidation of job protections, liquidation of social welfare, liquidation of "stability" in favor of aggrandizement.

This is not a neat process. That it takes a toll on what some of the so-called "enlightened bourgeoisie" (an oxymoron if ever there was one) consider institutions of "progress" "cooperation" "humanity" shows just how contingent progress, cooperation, and humanity are on expanding capitalist reproduction, and how meaningless those concepts are to capitalism. .

After Greece, Ireland, Spain, Portugal-- does anyone truly think remaining in a union of European capitalists offers a future different, more "hopeful," than its immediate past?

This "dysfunctionality" is not the product of the British working class' xenophobia; its conservatism; its betrayal or duping. The dysfunctionality is capitalism breaking down capitalism. It's ugly. It's unavoidable. There's no sense in trying to preserve institutions that have proven themselves antithetical to the emancipation of labor.

Ed

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Ed on June 25, 2016

Yeah, I agree (and said so before the referendum). If I'm being honest, I'm not so interested anymore in the debates about remain/leave/abstain as that's done now (and I'm certainly not convinced that my choice to vote remain was the right one). More just posting this stuff as a way of keeping tabs on the new post-referendum reality (a reality that looks increasingly bleak).

Schmoopie

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Schmoopie on June 26, 2016

cactus9

I have seen and heard a few intelligent and potentially persuasive mentions of... radical argument for leaving the EU.

The British working class make a tactical alignment with the petit bourgeoisie and vote for the UK to leave the European Union

Press release, English Communist Party

ajjohnstone

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by ajjohnstone on June 26, 2016

To be honest, what the EU referendum (and the Scottish Independence referendum) brought home to me personally was the striking insignificance of ourselves in the "thin red line".

Our influence is negligible, our voice practically inaudible even when both votes were on issues that there was a basis for some co-operation and co-ordination amongst ourselves without breaching our own organisations' principles (such as my own group's 'hostility clause') so as to simply amplify our voice in the political discourse and get a hearing in the conversations of our fellow-workers.

I'm not calling for some utopian hope of unity of parties...but a common-sense acknowledgement of who our real enemies are and how we can help and aid one another in defence of our common interests ie of the working class as a whole, world-wide.

Many of us on are reaching our twilight years and fear passing away before even seeing the dawning of a new day.

Getting together even only temporary and on only one or two matters, just maybe leave us with a vestige of hope for the future after we are gone.

But as i see it we are all still trudging along the road towards socialism unable to share and lighten the load to make the journey easier and faster. We need to consider just how effectively we can use our limited resources.

Woke up a bit pessimistically this morning :(

elraval2

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by elraval2 on June 26, 2016

Does anyone know how this is likely to affect UK nationals living abroad? I live, work and study in Spain. I guess, as of yet, nobody knows for sure, but just wondered if anyone in the UK or living in the EU has heard anything.

Thanks,
el raval

elraval2

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by elraval2 on June 26, 2016

Also, will be interesting if the UK vote will have any effect on Spaniards voting in the general election today...

Spikymike

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Spikymike on June 26, 2016

Looking at the causes and results of the Referendum in shorthand terms of both 'ideology' and 'economics' perhaps combine the observations of mikail's post 198 and SA's post 210 and you get somewhere near a reasonably clear grasp of what's happened/is happening - sorry for being a bit lazy in not explicitly drawing that out but this discussion seems to move on rapidly with new points before I've got to grips with the earlier points!

PS: one conservative politician in the UK contrary to the urging of some EU politicians is voicing a common Out camp view that an actual exit will take 2.5 years as a minimum but much more likely 4 or 5 years in practice - plenty of time to extend the divisive nationalist and anti-working class politics put in place beforehand.

Steven.

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Steven. on June 26, 2016

Spikymike

PS: one conservative politician in the UK contrary to the urging of some EU politicians is voicing a common Out camp view that an actual exit will take 2.5 years as a minimum but much more likely 4 or 5 years in practice - plenty of time to extend the divisive nationalist and anti-working class politics put in place beforehand.

This is my biggest worry about this whole time. This is a battle between rival nationalisms: British nationalism and European supra-nationalism, and the longer the debate goes on the more it squeezes out any dissenting voices, including amongst anarchists and in the ultraleft, many of whom have abandoned their previous principles of not siding with opposing factions of the capitalist class and lined up with one or the other. :(

elraval2

Does anyone know how this is likely to affect UK nationals living abroad? I live, work and study in Spain. I guess, as of yet, nobody knows for sure, but just wondered if anyone in the UK or living in the EU has heard anything.

hi, I answered this on your other thread. If there will be any change at all this will be decided in the two-year period after (and if) the UK government invokes Article 50, stating that they are leaving the EU. Until then people can only speculate

Spikymike

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Spikymike on June 26, 2016

Steven
Agreed but British? - maybe more English, Welsh, Scottish and Irish nationalism in the mix - no more or less 'progressive' than each other or the European 'supra-nationalism' as it is expressed in the political apparatus of the European Union - in each case some common (if evolving) 'cultural' identities used and abused by those in power to preserve that power at our expense.

fingers malone

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by fingers malone on June 26, 2016

Steven, can you please stop saying I lined up with a faction of the bourgoisie, I voted to try to stop what is now happening, which is people having notices put through their doors saying no more Polish vermin and people getting attacked in the street.

Steven.

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Steven. on June 26, 2016

fingers malone

Steven, can you please stop saying I lined up with a faction of the bourgoisie, I voted to try to stop what is now happening, which is people having notices put through their doors saying no more Polish vermin and people getting attacked in the street.

I understand you did that with good intentions. But I think many people with good intentions vote Labour, or against UKIP or the BNP in order to try to stop racist violence (often using the example that after that BNP guy got elected in Welling there was a big increase in racist violence).

But I see that as siding with a faction of the bourgeoisie. Do you not?

As it is a question about who has the power to govern us: this political party or that. I see this referendum is being substantially the same: who has the power to govern us? People in this country or more people in another. Do you not agree with that?

Not trying to be arsey here, genuinely trying to understand your position.

fingers malone

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by fingers malone on June 26, 2016

My position is that four of my mates that I know of have been racially harassed in public since Friday morning, my students were nearly in tears on Friday, my mum is distraught living out on her own in Rule-Brittania-land, and I think I'm probably going to lose my job.
That horrible racist attack that happened on a Polish father and son, leaving them with head injuries, I think that happened near my mum's. I don't actually want to look on a map to check. My mates from other countries come with me some times to visit my mum.
I've seen a guy on fb saying that he's told his wife not to speak their language to their kid when she's in the playground with him if she's on her own.
I'm trying to cope with the situation and support people as best as I can and I don't want people telling me right now that I lined up with the bourgoisie. Maybe if you have something helpful to say about supporting people dealing with racist attacks and insecurity about their future, maybe you could say that instead.

Red Marriott

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Red Marriott on June 26, 2016

It's possible that similar incidents would have also happened after a Remain vote - as expression of resentment at having lost and encouraged by, eg, Farage having talked of 'violence in the streets if immigration isn't controlled'. Even though the end to immigration or even deportations desired by many Leavers aren't likely to happen. The poison is there and would be expressed one way or other sooner or later. It does indicate imo that by any measure of solidarity and class consciousness the UK working class is largely close to rock bottom. The fact that a bourgeois referendum is seen as the means by which the UK working class has had the biggest single social/political impact in decades says a lot.

radicalgraffiti

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by radicalgraffiti on June 26, 2016

yes about the "working class" and leaving the EU

We go on to demonstrate how support for UKIP is even higher among the self-employed and business owners than the working class, and that is quite high even in the professional & managerial classes, who because are their substantial numbers actually provide the biggest bloc of UKIP’s class-based support.

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/working-class-votes-and-conservative-losses-solving-the-ukip-puzzle/

Red Marriott

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Red Marriott on June 26, 2016

radicalgraffiti

yes about the "working class" and leaving the EU

We go on to demonstrate how support for UKIP is even higher among the self-employed and business owners than the working class, and that is quite high even in the professional & managerial classes, who because are their substantial numbers actually provide the biggest bloc of UKIP’s class-based support.

Yeh, that doesn't surprise me. Though working class UKIP support may continue to grow.

mikail firtinaci

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by mikail firtinaci on June 26, 2016

I would not call EU a "European supra-nationalism", but a technocratic EU professional elite that sovereign nationalisms preferred to yield to. EU establishment was much more convenient as a tool to attack proles, when in 90s & 2000s, official left and right parties everywhere were exhausted and ideologically collapsed, at a time when capitalists had to dismantle the Keynesian welfare states. EU with its professionalist depoliticized discourse and its non-democratic procedures made this transformation easy.

Now we are witnessing the rise of a new irrational, aggressive, nationalist-fundamentalist populism everywhere. It is not like a typical mass-movement, but an ugly duplicate of late 90s early 2000s anti-globalization movements. It is ideologically eclectic; a few old-school fascists here, a few adventurist sectarians there, some native fringe lunatic here another international network of anti-islam (or islamist on the other side!) front there... There is no definite, homogeneous economic interest behind the new populist-right either. In most cases a charismatic (in Weberian fashion) & pragmatic leader is promising a redistribution of wealth, a bounty of easy loot (of natural resources, city land, labor etc)... to his supporters.

What is happening now, is that EU national-blind, non-ideological professionalism cover is making some increasingly impatient. They are gathering around UKIP style (as far as I could tell) or Erdogan-Putin-Trump type mobilizations. This also plays a chord with those proles who are fed up with betrayals of official lefts that lined behind the arrogant EU officials. Activist left also alienated this segment of the traditional working class. Activism as a professional elite occupation aimed to find the most oppressed and silenced as the mascot of its cause, and hence does not even want a class mobilization. Activists are professionals of negotiation with EU type bureaucrats, and they eventually hope to replace them further in their careers.

Personally, I expect a total disintegration of this professional/apolitical elites' power base sooner or later. Trump in the US is an expression of that tendency. It already happened in the periphery countries like Turkey or Russia. Maybe Sanders/Corbyn/Podemos etc., can organize the professional activist campaigners into an alternative power bloc - akin to antifascist fronts of 1930s though still different. But what will that present except a left-wing version of the existing momentum?

Scallywag

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Scallywag on June 26, 2016

Red Marriott

It does indicate imo that by any measure of solidarity and class consciousness the UK working class is largely close to rock bottom. The fact that a bourgeois referendum is seen as the means by which the UK working class has had the biggest single social/political impact in decades says a lot.

That's exactly what they want us to think.

They want us to think the working class is racist, defeated and is not class conscious, as others have expressed this referendum has been a tactic of demoralising the working class.

I think its worth remembering that our story doesn't get told in the mainstream media. Our perspective and our arguments aren't allowed to be shown. All we see is the violence, racism, negativity and the world going to shit. No mutual aid and solidarity, no vision of a free society without hierarchical domination and class exploitation.

A big problem is that we are just not visible enough. But I think there are a lot of alienated people out there that would support anarchism if they understood it.

We can never give up.

Red Marriott

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Red Marriott on June 26, 2016

scallywag

That's exactly what they want us to think.

You seem to be responding to my impression of what I see with what you'd like be true. Which refutes nothing; empty wishful sloganising doesn't change reality much or help understand what is going on.

S. Artesian

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by S. Artesian on June 26, 2016

Perfectly, except I think you mean "lining up" not living up, but close enough for government work.

S. Artesian

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by S. Artesian on June 26, 2016

BBC is reporting that up to half of the members of Corbyn's shadow cabinet are threatening to resign over Corbyn's failure to vigorously support the "remain" side.

Seems to me that this sums up pretty well what Labor Party is about-- all controversies are about how heavily to support which sections of the ruling class. I don't know how much remains of the linkage between the trade unions and the LP, although clearly much less than there was 40 or 30 years ago. But I can't imagine the LP remaining as an entity.

Tthose in the LP that did support remain?-- what is their priority now? Is it confronting the xenophobia uncovered in the referendum? Unlikely, No more than it was in confronting the xenophobia before the referendum.

Corbyn? Any attempt to mobilize his supporters against the nationalism? Is anyone doing anything like proposing defense of immigrant neighborhoods (I presume such exist)?

Joseph Kay

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Joseph Kay on June 26, 2016

As far as I'm aware, two Labour MPs have spoken of migrants as human beings (as opposed to exploitable labour etc). One was assassinated, the other is currently facing a coup. Which probably tells you everything you need to know about the parliamentary party's priorities on xenophobia and nationalism (i.e. strongly in favour).

Scallywag

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Scallywag on June 26, 2016

Red Marriott

You seem to be responding to my impression of what I see with what you'd like be true.

I don’t think you got my point.

So I agree that we can look at current events to indicate the overall lack of class consciousness and solidarity in the working class, but at the same time part of the reason the working class isn’t class conscious is because it is told that it isn’t by the media and we shouldn’t accept that. We should be concerned about increased racism, violence and the scapegoating of immigrants, but to accept that the working class isn’t class conscious does not serve us well and seems one sided and defeatist to me. Class conscious workers do exist, we shouldn’t dismiss positive movements and action that is being done, however little and we should focus on increasing class consciousness.

Besides this, I do think workers have an awareness of what their problems are they just haven’t articulated them well and have blamed the wrong people. They are alienated and of course that is extremely worrying, but at the same time I still see potential for increasing class consciousness and revolutionary struggle. I am confident people would accept anarchism if they understood it.

Which refutes nothing; empty wishful sloganising doesn't change reality much or help understand what is going on.

I disagree, this can help us understand a situation and if people get behind it can change reality. I think it’s really important. We have to challenge dominant narratives and show that another world is possible. A bit of idealism and vision is necessary.

jef costello

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by jef costello on June 26, 2016

From a strategic point of view delaying the exit it the best move, it means they don't have to deliver on any promises, they can continue to blame everything on Europe and paint themselves as outsiders etc.

Finger, obviously all the stuff you're doing is real solidarity and exactly the kind of thing that someone on this site should be doing, I don't think you lined up with the bourgeoisie in any ideological sense, but voting is what it is, it's a charade, maybe Labour wouldn't have quite so viciously gutted every social programme going but it still wouldn't justify voting for them. I still think the Brexit comes pretty close to being a justified vote and I don't think anyone should hold it against you (I don't hold voting against anyone, even when they spam my facebook with crap about people dying for my vote...)

fingers malone

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by fingers malone on June 26, 2016

Thanks Jef, I'm not saying I'm right, I'm just asking people to have a human response when other people are having a really hard time. And I'd like people to see the really hard time as the problem, and what we need to be talking about, not whether some anarchists voted or not.

I've never told anyone who didn't vote that they should have voted, either here or IRL.

S. Artesian

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by S. Artesian on June 26, 2016

If the vote had gone 52-48, would Britain be any "safer," any less racist, any less xenophobic? Would the future really be "less bleak?" Would that reversal amounted to "progress" or even a greater opportunity for "progressives?"

Has anything ever played out that way, really?

Really, when the EU is demonstrably barbaric a body that MSF rejects the funds from it, doesn't that tell you what a sham the whole notion of "progress" truly is?

I don't know that the EU can, but I think there is going to be powerful efforts in the EU to get Britain out quickly, even if messily. Financial assets can be relocated electronically, and the "hard assets"-- well as the EU has demonstrated with Greece, with the bank bailouts, with anything and everything it doesn't give a toss about the hard assets. Liquidate, liquidate is the modern corollary to accumulate, accumulate.

Serge Forward

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Serge Forward on June 26, 2016

No Britain wouldn't have been any less racist but the racist elements here would probably not feel cocky enough to be going around threatening Asians and Eastern Europeans in the street and telling them to get out of the country. Basically, it seems to have emboldened the racist pricks a fair bit.

S. Artesian

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by S. Artesian on June 26, 2016

Serge Forward

No Britain wouldn't have been any less racist but the racist elements here would probably not feel cocky enough to be going around threatening Asians and Eastern Europeans in the street and telling them to get out of the country. Basically, it seems to have emboldened the racist pricks a fair bit.

Yes, no doubt. It has emboldened the racist pricks. Now, how do we address that? How do we counter that? Because what really emboldens racist pricks is lack of resistance. Remember something about British fascists trying to march in the East End in what? 1937. Moseley's group wasn't it-- and get their asses pretty well kicked.

And old Jack Spot trying to take credit for organizing the ass-kicking?

That can't be done now?

Alf

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Alf on June 26, 2016

I think Steven is right to express concern about the number of posters on this site, people who would normally argue against participation in bourgeois elections, caving in and (even if with a 'heavy heart') voting Remain. Of course they must have felt strongly pressured by the horrible atmosphere being stirred up by the referendum, and by the 'Brexit' camp in particular, but principles are only worth anything when you can hold onto them under difficult circumstances. And given that the directly anti-working class (and anti-migrant/refugee role) of the EU is not very hard to prove, this was by no means the hardest test revolutionaries are likely to face.
I also support ajjohnstone's concern about the need for more direct discussion among revolutionaries about the current situation. The defence of communist principles is one aspect of our activity; analysis of what's going on is another, and we should use what opportunities exist for face to face discussion. The day of discussion the ICC is organising on 16 July is one such opportunity. The aim is to discuss the question of migration and refugees from a historical and world-wide perspective, as well as the general significance of the rise of populism; but we will obviously be including a discussion on Brexit and its implications.
http://en.internationalism.org/icconline/201606/13980/discussion-day-working-class-class-migrants

Red Marriott

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Red Marriott on June 26, 2016

scallywag

So I agree that we can look at current events to indicate the overall lack of class consciousness and solidarity in the working class, but at the same time part of the reason the working class isn’t class conscious is because it is told that it isn’t by the media and we shouldn’t accept that. We should be concerned about increased racism, violence and the scapegoating of immigrants, but to accept that the working class isn’t class conscious does not serve us well and seems one sided and defeatist to me. Class conscious workers do exist, we shouldn’t dismiss positive movements and action that is being done, however little and we should focus on increasing class consciousness.

Pointing out a truth (one you say you agree with, btw) is not just 'accepting it', it's making a necessary observation if one is to have the understanding to try to change circumstances. To point it out doesn't mean denying there's any remaining positive activity - but discouraging people from stating the obvious (cos it's bad for morale?) is hardly going to encourage trying to understand the present or any positive change.

Scallywag

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Scallywag on June 26, 2016

Red Marriott

Pointing out a truth (one you say you agree with, btw) is not just 'accepting it', it's making a necessary observation if one is to have the understanding to try to change circumstances. To point it out doesn't mean denying there's any remaining positive activity - but discouraging people from stating the obvious (cos it's bad for morale?) is hardly going to encourage trying to understand the present or any positive change.

Yh I suppose your right there.

The working class would be a whole lot more class conscious though, if we had a radical media, that showed ongoing struggles and class conscious workers showing solidarity, mutual aid and engaging in class struggle. As well as critiquing the status quo, offering an anarchist alternative and correctly blaming capitalism and the state for inequality and exploitation.

But obviously it doesn't do that, you never see a class conscious worker on the news blaming capitalism and the state and articulating the need for revolution and anarchism. Only racists and people blaming immigrants. And the former class conscious workers might be the minority, but they do exist, and maybe wouldn't be the minority where they not essentially kept out of politics.

My point is then that the media tries to paint the working class as racist and uninterested in revolutionary politics, and since it doesn't offer the alternative view then its what the working class becomes, so we should be careful about that. We have to argue that they are wrong and give the alternative view.

Sister Ray

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Sister Ray on June 26, 2016

For what it's worth I have never understood the fetishisation of non-voting most anarchists preach. As long as you don't regard voting as revolutionary, or as any kind of coherent political strategy, and purely as a damage limitation exercise then there is nothing wrong with it IMO. Of course anarchist orgs shouldn't be advocating voting, and should be explaining the flaws with it, but I think the approach of anarchists in general should be a lot more 'don't advocate voting' rather than 'advocate NOT voting'.

I voted remain in the EU referendum, and I have to say coming into work on friday morning to see a lot of fellow workers from Italy, Poland etc nearly in tears I don't particularly regret that decision.

Gulai Polye

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Gulai Polye on June 26, 2016

Sister Ray

For what it's worth I have never understood the fetishisation of non-voting most anarchists preach. As long as you don't regard voting as revolutionary, or as any kind of coherent political strategy, and purely as a damage limitation exercise then there is nothing wrong with it IMO. Of course anarchist orgs shouldn't be advocating voting, and should be explaining the flaws with it, but I think the approach of anarchists in general should be a lot more 'don't advocate voting' rather than 'advocate NOT voting'.

I voted remain in the EU referendum, and I have to say coming into work on friday morning to see a lot of fellow workers from Italy, Poland etc nearly in tears I don't particularly regret that decision.

Anarchists are not against voting. They just wanna vote on issues rather than on people. So in case of the EU referendum it was in line with anarchist ideology to vote because the vote was direct.

Your fellow workers might be in tears, but is that because of EU or because of capitalism?

fingers malone

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by fingers malone on June 26, 2016

Info here for EEA citizens

http://bindmans.com/news-and-events/our-opinion/brexit-implications-for-eea-citizens-in-the-uk

I'm translating it, will post translations when finished.

S. Artesian

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by S. Artesian on June 26, 2016

"Remain" lost. Now what do those who supported "remain" because it was supposed to be a vote in favor of "free movement" or "equal rights of labor" and in opposition of xenophobia propose to do next?

I read how banks and financial institutions had run "fire drills" and "stress tests" and whatever in case "leave" won; and it is clearly the case that Labor and the Tories did not consider "what if..." but communists? anarchists? Certainly somebody thought about what to do if exit was selected.

fingers malone

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by fingers malone on June 26, 2016

Well I don't know about anyone else but I propose to finish translating this text.

Jamal

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Jamal on June 27, 2016

I'm an anarchist and an internationalist and an abstentionist. I've been lambasted in the past for telling people not to vote to legalize weed. Class demands can't have anything to do with the state, or nationalism, or they are simply not class demands.

If you went inside a voting booth you should be ashamed of yourselves. Disgraceful

And to completely cross some kinda line---we need more dead bourgeois politicians in my opinion

Edit: *just to be clear, i reject terrorism

D

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by D on June 26, 2016

Jamal

I'm an anarchist and an internationalist and an abstentionist. I've been lambasted in the past for telling people not to vote to legalize weed. Class demands can't have anything to do with the state, or nationalism, or they are simply not class demands.

If you went inside a voting booth you should be ashamed of yourselves. Disgraceful

And to completely cross some kinda line---we need more dead bourgeois politicians in my opinion

The worst someone can be accused of for voting remain in the hope of helping migrants etc is mistakenly believing it could make a difference (which I personally don't entirely agree with anyway)

Personally I think it's disgraceful to label people a disgrace who believed it might make a slight difference even if you disagree with their position.

Jamal

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Jamal on June 27, 2016

The only slight difference you are making is in favor of the class that is oppressing you.

Pennoid

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Pennoid on June 27, 2016

Jamal

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Jamal on June 27, 2016

patient Insurgency

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by patient Insurgency on June 27, 2016

Imo there needs to be coherent anarchist response to all this. And I'm not sure what that would be.

Schmoopie

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Schmoopie on June 27, 2016

Fleur:

As a 14 year old, he fought the invading Soviet Army. His actions speak louder than his words. I think you are all bluster.

That doesn't mean he's not a racist.

Janos is a racist. Many first generation immigrants fall back on racism in reaction to their increased alienation. As far as the argument goes that the referendum result has emboldened racists, in Jani's case, this does not appear to be true. I met my uncle outside Spoons at the Armed Forces day in town yesterday. Far from being emboldened in expressing his peurile racist nonsense, he actually appeared very sheepish.

Auld-bod

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Auld-bod on June 27, 2016

Patient Insurgency #251
‘Imo there needs to be coherent anarchist response to all this. And I'm not sure what that would be.’

The only response to ‘all this’ is libertarian communism.

Yesterday a woman who has never shown much interest in politics was in the supermarket and the fellow at the till asked her what she thought of the referendum. She said she was shocked and ashamed, it made her feel ill. The other assistant turned round to face her, she was Asian, and said she was so pleased to know this, as she was terribly worried for her children. Human solidarity, we are not alone.

Schmoopie

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Schmoopie on June 27, 2016

deleted

fingers malone

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by fingers malone on June 27, 2016

There's been some clarifications in the original advice I was working from, so I'm having to retranslate this (quite annoying, I spent ages on it on Sunday evening) so if you've passed it on to anyone tell them to look for the new translation.

I've had offers of help with other languages so will post them too soon.

Schmoopie

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Schmoopie on June 27, 2016

On the Friday after the referendum result the ALL-WORLD Index (FT) saw a 4.80% decline in value.

Reddebrek

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Reddebrek on June 27, 2016

Gulai Polye

Anarchists are not against voting. They just wanna vote on issues rather than on people. So in case of the EU referendum it was in line with anarchist ideology to vote because the vote was direct.

Your fellow workers might be in tears, but is that because of EU or because of capitalism?

Referendum's in a representative system aren't direct at all. The leave vote has won, and yet the decision is still in the hands of the government and I'm not talking about the rumours that parliament may reject it anyway. How the UK leaves, how long it takes, and what will replace it are all in the hands of the UK and European governments.

Jamal

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Jamal on June 27, 2016

disclaimer: the above image is not a personal endorsement of syndicalism

Schmoopie

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Schmoopie on June 27, 2016

The ALL-WORLD INDEX falls a further 2% today, whilst the pound has fallen to a 31-year low against the dollar. Good old English economics!
[youtube]BQreYYReELA[/youtube]
Money talks, bullshit walks

Jamal

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Jamal on June 27, 2016

Don't forget over $2 trillion in global equity loss.

Schmoopie

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Schmoopie on June 27, 2016

Don't forget over $2 trillion in global equity loss

How could I forget, Jamal? Now pass the fucking spliff!

S. Artesian

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by S. Artesian on June 27, 2016

Pretty much of a body blow to the EU-- not just in that Britain votes to leave; but also what has occurred in Greece, the ongoing paralysis of the ruling parties in Spain, Renzi's losses in Rome (and Turin, IIRC), the class struggles in France, not to mention the condition of Belgium itself.

There is no separating this event from the general impaired state of capitalism, and the various reaction such impairment produces-- including the reactionary formations. But there's no avoiding this. There's no easy way of breaking with institutions, organizations, and a mythology which are no longer sustained by, and in turn cannot support, the preservation, much less the accumulation, of capital.

The EU has proven that with its austerity policy in the attempt to bail out bankers and get past the E1.3 trillion in non-performing debts. It has proven this with its violation of its own regulations regarding refugees.

This, the exit of Britain, is facet of the decomposition of the bourgeoisie's control over the very forces they have unleashed.

I don't pretend to know how severe the repercussions will be on the global capitalist economy; but I do know this is a manifestation of another downward turn.

It's ugly now; it will get uglier soon. It cannot be avoided, and the bourgeoisie have run out of ways of buying.

What needs to be done now is what was so desperately needed all along.

Gulai Polye

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Gulai Polye on June 27, 2016

Reddebrek

Gulai Polye

Anarchists are not against voting. They just wanna vote on issues rather than on people. So in case of the EU referendum it was in line with anarchist ideology to vote because the vote was direct.

Your fellow workers might be in tears, but is that because of EU or because of capitalism?

Referendum's in a representative system aren't direct at all. The leave vote has won, and yet the decision is still in the hands of the government and I'm not talking about the rumours that parliament may reject it anyway. How the UK leaves, how long it takes, and what will replace it are all in the hands of the UK and European governments.

We will have to wait and see then (or make a revolution)

Gulai Polye

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Gulai Polye on June 27, 2016

patient Insurgency

Imo there needs to be coherent anarchist response to all this. And I'm not sure what that would be.

Everyone can make a response as they please. Right now i think there is an overwhelming response to take other countries out of EU in the wake of brexit to bring more freedom to the enslaved people on the buttom.

Burgers

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Burgers on June 27, 2016

Communist Workers’ Organisation response to the result.

The British referendum on the EU may be over but the debate still rages. Let’s just get one thing out of the way first. Nowhere in the UK has the working class anything to gain from Brexit and “Remain” equally meant nothing to a class already suffering the pain of austerity. A vote for either is a vote to give the national capital a blank cheque for more austerity. Britain is “divided” all right, but the division is not between London and the provinces, England and Scotland or young and old. The real divide is between those who want to boost their profits and those who pay for this in lower wages, precarious jobs and generally lower living standards. All those campaigning in the referendum (whatever their claims for Remain or Leave) were campaigning on the nationalist and capitalist agenda of “what’s best for Britain?” As we wrote back in November

“Our position as Internationalist Communists is crystal clear. The real choice for workers is to act in our own interests. Don't be drawn into the bosses' phoney debate”.[1]

http://www.leftcom.org/en/articles/2016-06-27/brexit-vote-%E2%80%93-another-sign-of-global-capitalism%E2%80%99s-deepening-crisis

cactus9

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by cactus9 on June 27, 2016

patient Insurgency

Imo there needs to be coherent anarchist response to all this. And I'm not sure what that would be.

Defending the right of your friends and comrades to stay in a place they had made their home if they want.

Gulai Polye

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Gulai Polye on June 27, 2016

cactus9

patient Insurgency

Imo there needs to be coherent anarchist response to all this. And I'm not sure what that would be.

Defending the right of your friends and comrades to stay in a place they had made their home if they want.

That right can only be achieved by smashing the state eliminate the borders, not more bureaucratic antiworker corrupt EU.

cactus9

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by cactus9 on June 27, 2016

Gulai Polye

cactus9

patient Insurgency

Imo there needs to be coherent anarchist response to all this. And I'm not sure what that would be.

Defending the right of your friends and comrades to stay in a place they had made their home if they want.

That right can only be achieved by smashing the state eliminate the borders, not more bureaucratic antiworker corrupt EU.

What about defending the right of people to stay by smashing the state?

cactus9

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by cactus9 on June 27, 2016

.

.

Gulai Polye

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Gulai Polye on June 27, 2016

cactus9:
Yeah that is what is trying to say

teh

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by teh on June 27, 2016

Ed

The racists are confident and noisy, and on the offensive. Read this, and weep. https://t.co/O8hBznIquv— Richard Seymour (@leninology) June 25, 2016

Seymour didnt have a problem with racists being "confident and noisy, and on the offensive" in Ukraine in the fall of 2013 but the UK getting the same econ-pol arrangement as Norway and Iceland, now that _thats_ a pogrom!

Maybe if EU rats werent so complacent with the status-quo and insipidly self-righteous, workers and pensioners wouldn't have turned out in high numbers to vote Leave and they'd still be in the European Union.
Polls prior to the campaign start had Brexit as likely as the Scottish succession:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum#2015 (link should show 2015 polls)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_Scottish_independence_referendum,_2014#2013

Also heres a chart of far-right parties electoral succes (from a pro-euro source) after the EU vanquished European bolshevism in 1988/89:

But thats got nothing to do with the EU being racialist and ethnonationalist by default, of course.

S. Artesian

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by S. Artesian on June 27, 2016

Seymour didnt have a problem with racists being "confident and noisy, and on the offensive" in Ukraine in the fall of 2013 but the UK getting the same econ-pol arrangement as Norway and Iceland, now that _thats_ a pogrom!

Yeah, Seymour is a pretty pathetic character-- endorser of Syriza; calling Syriza's capitulation a world-historic defeat, from which he has learned the lesson of.......nothing "Let's do it all over again with ____________(Corbyn, Podemos whatever).

I think you make an important point, although perhaps I mean something you don't-- in that while "we"-- we assumed being socialist (of some sort) revolutionists (of some sort) would not have endorsed the government's attempts to put down the "Euromaidan" movement; we would not have endorsed the "Euromaidan" movement; we would have been compelled to confront and oppose the nationalist and xenophobic elements in the movement, and we would certainly have opposed the nonsense about joining the EU, but we would have been there in the square, in opposition to the government.

Difficult, difficult task, given the fact that (almost) everybody, on either or any side, wants to kill you. Sure glad my grandparents fled Zitomer when the reaction to 1905 set in.

jesuithitsquad

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by jesuithitsquad on June 28, 2016

S. Artesian

This, the exit of Britain, is facet of the decomposition of the bourgeoisie's control over the very forces they have unleashed.

I don't pretend to know how severe the repercussions will be on the global capitalist economy; but I do know this is a manifestation of another downward turn.

It's ugly now; it will get uglier soon. It cannot be avoided, and the bourgeoisie have run out of ways of buying.

What needs to be done now is what was so desperately needed all along.

this is well-stated and is what frightens me. emancipatory forces are small, weak, and fragmented. how to counter forces the ruling class themselves cannot contain?

fingers malone

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by fingers malone on June 28, 2016

People keep saying 'well we will need to organise against far right activity but we would have had to anyway' but what the hell do we do to organise against people being racially abused on buses and jumped in the street?

S. Artesian

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by S. Artesian on June 28, 2016

fingers malone

People keep saying 'well we will need to organise against far right activity but we would have had to anyway' but what the hell do we do to organise against people being racially abused on buses and jumped in the street?

Cell (mobile) phones? Informally, exchange numbers with your friends, who can exchange with their friends and form a network of mutual support?

And, I don't know since I don't use twitter or anything like that, but if Twitter is capable of being a platform for "flash" demonstrations, can it be used to provide mutual assistance?

S. Artesian

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by S. Artesian on June 28, 2016

jesuithitsquad

how to counter forces the ruling class themselves cannot contain?

There are examples from recent events in the US and other locations. And there is certainly a huge "supply" of anti-racist, anti-chauvinist activists in the UK. You've confronted racists, fascists, neo-Nazis before.

FWIW I would advise, however, that you NOT make the mobilization along "lowest common denominator" lines-- i.e what we call "civil rights" in the US, or for "European democracy," but rather active defense of the vulnerable, if not most vulnerable, sections of the working class against the goons in the service of capital.

jesuithitsquad

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by jesuithitsquad on June 28, 2016

S. Artesian

jesuithitsquad

how to counter forces the ruling class themselves cannot contain?

There are examples from recent events in the US and other locations. And there is certainly a huge "supply" of anti-racist, anti-chauvinist activists in the UK. You've confronted racists, fascists, neo-Nazis before.

FWIW I would advise, however, that you NOT make the mobilization along "lowest common denominator" lines-- i.e what we call "civil rights" in the US, or for "European democracy," but rather active defense of the vulnerable, if not most vulnerable, sections of the working class against the goons in the service of capital.

These calls are everywhere right now. frontism if you will. especially considering the arguments with liberals about the use of violence for self-defense, most frontism calls seem to mean, 'you lay down your principles and work under mine.'

Sharkfinn

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Sharkfinn on June 28, 2016

Cell (mobile) phones? Informally, exchange numbers with your friends, who can exchange with their friends and form a network of mutual support?

Fingers is and has been doing political activity on behalf of migrants more than any non-migrant worker in the UK that I know of. If you were a real comrade you would know better than to insult and patronize fellow workers when they are having a hard time. Especially when, judging from your posts, you clearly have no idea who you are talking to. Of course London has anti-fascist phone trees, that has nothing to do with the referendum.

Voting remain or leave has nothing do with siding with the ruling class. The ruling class is ruling no matter which way you are voting (or abstaining). Furthermore our problem is with capitalism as a social relation not the capitalist or the elite as some obnoxious people. Anarchist case against voting is that the working class cannot vote its way to freedom, not that voting itself is bad. Unless you take anarchism as a religion and non voting as some kind sacrament. But the vote still has an impact on the working class, mainly migrants and people potentially losing their jobs as a result. If you are not in either category, maybe think about how people in one of those might be feeling right now, before judging them on abstract (and totally contrived) theoretical grounds.

cactus9

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by cactus9 on June 28, 2016

fingers malone

People keep saying 'well we will need to organise against far right activity but we would have had to anyway' but what the hell do we do to organise against people being racially abused on buses and jumped in the street?

Pretty easily, if you see or hear it happen shout "you disgusting racist". I'm taking a bus this evening especially to try and get the chance to do this :-)

Also think about organising more in towns where this sort of thing has happened, here in Cambridge it's been quiet but I hear bad stories from Huntingdon and Peterborough which surprises me because I know people from there and they are sound. All that has to happen for evil to triumph is good people to be silent or something, I cant remember the exact words.

S. Artesian

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by S. Artesian on June 28, 2016

Sharkfinn

Cell (mobile) phones? Informally, exchange numbers with your friends, who can exchange with their friends and form a network of mutual support?

Fingers is and has been doing political activity on behalf of migrants more than any non-migrant worker in the UK that I know of. If you were a real comrade you would know better than to insult and patronize fellow workers when they are having a hard time. Especially when, judging from your posts, you clearly have no idea who you are talking to. Of course London has anti-fascist phone trees, that has nothing to do with the referendum.

Voting remain or leave has nothing do with siding with the ruling class. The ruling class is ruling no matter which way you are voting (or abstaining). Furthermore our problem is with capitalism as a social relation not the capitalist or the elite as some obnoxious people. Anarchist case against voting is that the working class cannot vote its way to freedom, not that voting itself is bad. Unless you take anarchism as a religion and non voting as some kind sacrament. But the vote still has an impact on the working class, mainly migrants and people potentially losing their jobs as a result. If you are not in either category, maybe think about how people in one of those might be feeling right now, before judging them on abstract (and totally contrived) theoretical grounds.

It's hard to be patronizing when somebody asks you a sincere question and you provide a sincere answer, providing even the "?" because they may have already thought of,or utilize such mechanisms.

He/She asked in essence, how do you defend against someone being assaulted? You basically cannot prevent it, until you have a mechanism of response, reaction to it. That's what the experience was of self-defense organizations confronting racism in the US South. The Deacons used CB radios.

He/She did not ask anything about the referendum in this post.

The issue is building defense networks.

You may have phone "trees" and they may not provide for the response, in the time period, that is required. It might be better to build out informally from two or three people.

You have a bone to pick with me? That's fine. Pick the fucking bone. But don't tell me how patronizing I am in answering a question that is presented almost with a sense of despair, a question that I think is of vital importance.

And your last paragraph-- I don't know to whom that is directed. I don't think I've said anything about anarchist case for voting or not voting. I certainly have no problem with voting as a tactic. I don't care how people voted. Seriously. I do have a problem with the argument that says voting "Remain" in the EU is "progressive," and is "way forward...

To Serge-- let's add--

"EDIT: "or even amounts to a defense of gains made by the struggle of workers, poor and oppressed," or that those who supported exit are responsible for an upsurge in racist violence."

It is what it is-- a vote for the status quo and all that that status quo entails-- mistreatment of refugees; mutual aid among capitalists, funding of "neo-liberal" programs, etc.etc

I don't think that status quo is worth a minute of defense. If you don't either, then great. If not......

Serge Forward

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Serge Forward on June 28, 2016

Maybe I missed it. Where did anyone on Libcom say voting remain is "progressive" and a "way forward"?

Serge Forward

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Serge Forward on June 28, 2016

Response to SA's edit:

You see, has anyone actually said people who voted leave are responsible for racist violence? Or are you just making shit up? Unless you can point an instance of this out, then you're just loading the discussion for your own purposes. I can think of my own reasons to criticise them, but to imply that those on Libcom who voted remain were doing so to support the status quo is a gross distortion of reality to suit your own argument.

Craftwork

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Craftwork on June 28, 2016

Sleeper

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Sleeper on June 28, 2016

You're a barefaced fucking liar Steven. I started a thread a while ago and you derailed it by stating that the EU referendum had nothing to offer discussion wise.

Steven.

New thread for discussion of the EU referendum tomorrow. There was a previous thread here but that got derailed. So please do not resurrect the derail discussion. This thread is for continued discussion of the EU referendum and its ramifications.

Sleeper

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Sleeper on June 28, 2016

Now why am I not surprised to see this lying nobhead on the same thread.

Serge Forward

Maybe I missed it. Where did anyone on Libcom say voting remain is "progressive" and a "way forward"?

fingers malone

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by fingers malone on June 28, 2016

oh Jesus can people please go and have rows with each other about not liking each other on a different thread? I think someone set up a thread for that and it has like 200 posts. On this one can we talk about the fallout and concequences of the EU referendum please?

Sharkfinn

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Sharkfinn on June 28, 2016

S. Artesian. The last paragraph is not directed against you since you don't argue against voting (at least not against voting leave). It was directed against a general discourse on this thread were people argue things like not voting (even in referendums) is a principled anarchist stance and people talk about it as if it was a sin, and this is then used to as a put down against other posters.

I understand you did that with good intentions. But I think many people with good intentions vote Labour, or against UKIP or the BNP in order to try to stop racist violence (often using the example that after that BNP guy got elected in Welling there was a big increase in racist violence).

But I see that as siding with a faction of the bourgeoisie. Do you not?

fingers malone wrote:

The comment about Greece is not fair enough to people like me and Can'tdo.

Well, you will disagree of course but I think it is I'm afraid. The EU is imposing vicious austerity on them, and you have voted for its continuing as the status quo.

Oh dear, looks like as per usual as soon as some real-life situation comes along some anarchists ditch their principles and try to be "pragmatic".

It's really negative activist quilt trip politics - and in my opinion completely lacks theoretical rigor. In this context (people have friends whose livelihoods or right of residence could be at risk as a result of the referendum), it's uncomradely behaviour.

Your remark was patronising because you presumed that Fingers didn't know anything about anti-fascism. She wasn't asking about 101. She was asking about what to do about the backlash created by the referendum. The problem isn't that anti-fascist wouldn't know how to organise, it's that the far right has out-organized us. There have been some demos in England in recent years where complete weirdo fringe fascist outnumber antifascist. The far right has been galvanized by the referendum (and yes if the vote had gone different it wouldn't be as bad). If UKIP organised street marches in some of their rural strongholds, random acts of racist violence increase, or the government cut welfare benefits to EU migrants, there wouldn't be existing mass organisation with ability to fight against these effectively right here and now. That's the issue here.

Gulai Polye

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Gulai Polye on June 28, 2016

Sharkfinn

The problem isn't that anti-fascist wouldn't know how to organise, it's that the far right has out-organized us. There have been some demos in England in recent years where complete weirdo fringe fascist outnumber antifascist.

Do you have just one picture showing this?

fingers malone

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by fingers malone on June 28, 2016

There was one in Birmingham, there was one in Fulham, there was one in Central London, there was one in Dover, sorry I don't have any photos as I don't take photos on anti fascist mobilisations.

fingers malone

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by fingers malone on June 28, 2016

Jesus, Sharkfinn, they patronise you just like they patronise me don't they? Well, it's company I'm proud to be in anyway.

Gulai, that post is very accurate.

Serge Forward

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Serge Forward on June 28, 2016

Sleeper

Now why am I not surprised to see this lying nobhead on the same thread.

Huh? What the fuck? If you said remain was progressive and a way forward, then fair play. Otherwise, please go back to changing your posts and changing your name whenever you get rumbled for your unhinged bullshit, you fucking mutt.

baboon

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by baboon on June 28, 2016

"...negative, activist guilt-ridden politics" to be against voting as individual citizens in circuses organised by the bourgeoisie. I'd call it principles worked out by the working class in its historical struggles. I'm well aware, from these boards, that many anarchists support voting in elections, just as I'm aware that many anarchists support the adjunct to bourgeois democracy, nationalism.

At a time when the working class needs to deepen its struggle, to take some profound step forward, the democratic campaign around the EU has given it a further kick in the teeth which is much more effective for capitalist class rule than any "fascist" danger. In continuity with its previous democratic campaigns divisions among the working class have been strengthened within the UK and Europe and nationalist divisions have been strengthened in the UK itself in relation to a question that's totally false for the working class.

Jamal

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Jamal on June 28, 2016

baboon is right about democracy, and many other things.

unfortunately i would presume based on their voluntary and habitual association with the ICC they're one of the patriarchal folks who thinks we need a centralized revolution with "leaders" and "speakers" and shit

all that being said you "anarchists" can't match up to even this person in terms of political understanding and that is embarrasing

like

you went in a voting booth

fuckboys

fingers malone

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by fingers malone on June 28, 2016

I've finally finished the leaflet, not sure how you attach a leaflet though. I'm just going to copy and paste text.

Yeah I'm a disgrace, have no political understanding and only care about my own mates.

If I had decent politics and cared about people maybe I might have done something useful with my free time these last few days, shame I don't really.

Brexit: implicaciones por ciudadanos EEA en Reino Unido
Primero: DON’T PANIC. Probablemente no serà cambios radicales por dos años. Ahora ciudadanos del EEA pueden vivir y trabajar en Reino Unido si estan ‘economically active’ es decir trabajando o buscando trabajo. Despues de dos años la situacion es mas incierto.
Serà un buen idea ahora:
Solicitar un ‘registration certificate’ o certificado de registro si has estado en el Reino Unido menos de cinco años usando formulario EEA QP
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/apply-for-a-registration-certificate-as-a-qualified-person-form-eea-qp
Solicitar un ‘document certifying permanent residence in the UK’ o documento certificando domicilio permanente en Reino Unido si has estado en el Reino Unido mas que cinco años usando formulario EEA PR
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/apply-for-a-document-certifying-permanent-residence-or-permanent-residence-card-form-eea-pr
Estos documentos no son obligatorio aqui pero puede ser importante despues para protegir tus derechos en el momento de salida del UE.
Esto es una guia informative. BUSCA CONSEJOS LEGALES en caso de duda.

S. Artesian

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by S. Artesian on June 28, 2016

Serge Forward

Response to SA's edit:

You see, has anyone actually said people who voted leave are responsible for racist violence? Or are you just making shit up? Unless you can point an instance of this out, then you're just loading the discussion for your own purposes. I can think of my own reasons to criticise them, but to imply that those on Libcom who voted remain were doing so to support the status quo is a gross distortion of reality to suit your own argument.

Crikey. OK add another one: "or amounts to a lesser evil" -- oh wait nobody said that, but you think that might be strongly implied in the argument?

This however

but to imply that those on Libcom who voted remain were doing so to support the status quo is a gross distortion of reality to suit your own argument

really takes the biscuit.

How could voting to "remain" be anything but voting for the status quo?

What is the status quo, or "was" as of June 22: Britain is a member of the EU.

What was the referendum: Should Britain remain in the EU or should it withdraw?

How can you not be voting for the status quo when you are by definition voting for the status quo?

Oh wait, cue Chilli or somebody to say "that's just you playing more semantic games."

OK, ask those who voted remain, what they were voting for, if not for the status quo that they thought protected migrants.

Look, the "best" argument, the only argument that has the slightest reason to be engaged on the remain side is the argument that says "voting to remain protects the status of migrant laborers from other EU countries in the UK."

The problem with that IMO is a) that's voting for the status quo, when everything we have seen across the globe in the last 8 years indicates that the status quo is no longer tenable, and is changing dramatically toward more desperate, more extreme measures of exploitation b) voting for the status quo means voting for all elements of the status quo-- i.e. the austerity policies that have taken such a horrible toll across Europe; and the inhuman treatment of refugees c) winds up depending on the institutions of capitalism to "protect" labor, rather than on the organizations of the laborers' class to protect the laborers through opposition to the institutions of capitalism.

Now (c) is precisely what the so-called left, in its varied shapes and forms has been doing ever since---Fabianism? The Labor Party? New Labor? Ad nauseum.

I thought then and I think now a complete break has to be made with that sort of "continuum of capitulation."

How many years ago was it that Trotsky (and I am not a fan of 'Bolshevik-Leninism) pointed out that the notion of a United States of Europe was unrealizable under capitalism, and only by breaking with the bourgeoisie nationally and internationally was there any possibility for a union of peoples? Well, he was not mistaken.

So now capitalism gets to the point where it begins to break down the very institutions that once served its purposes. That's where we are, but we're there without having pursued intently, or intensely enough, on our own, the opposition to those very same institutions. We wind up voting for a status quo that had already died.

Fleur

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Fleur on June 28, 2016

Jamal
Why don't you just back the fuck off. There are people in the UK who dealing with a shit storm of racism and abuse which has been unleashed by this referendum. Clearly it was there before but it has been made far worse by this result. And don't bother @ me about whether or not it would have happened anyway because that point is moot and I can't be bothered. So, unless you are on the ground, actually doing something useful like Fingers is, then I suggest you take your non-voting fetish and all your ideological purity and place it where the sun doesn't shine.

Jamal

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Jamal on June 28, 2016

Fleur
You're not doing useful shit. Neither is Fingers. We need a global revolution and whatever you are doing ain't working pal

Anyone else want it with me? We can do it. I shoot ones for fun

Jamal

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Jamal on June 28, 2016

Jamal Rayyan remember me cause most of you should be trying for me throat when we meet. If not I don't wanna know you or do this anymore to be honest

Jamal

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Jamal on June 28, 2016

My whole life has been sacrificed for this shit and I'm this close

Fleur

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Fleur on June 28, 2016

We need a global revolution and whatever you are doing ain't working pal

Absolutely. Looks like that is going to happen any day now. Yeah, when you've got it going, call me. Until then let the grown-ups do what the grown-ups do.