U.S election

But that's exactly what Obama did! (unless by cut funding you mean end funding- in which case, if he would try it, the usual 'political process' and a divided legislature/other-institutions would have prevented it).

Also on the subject of difference between the two parties:
Mons mentions real differences having to do with reproductive and gay rights.
I think there is a zany, crazy, nearly fascist end of the republican party which is sincere in its hatred of women and lgbt people.
I think there is a "progressive" wing of the dems that is sincere in its wish to be our dad and do all the other things associated with "progressive"

I just don't think the sincere wing of either party is enough to warrant voting. So you can vote out the sincere republicans in a state, but the best you can do is to replace them with regular dems, who aren't going to un-do the stuff the sincere republicans did while in office. I honestly think the best way to get these people to capitulate is good ole fashioned direct action, and I often hear the argument "but I'd just rather vote, cuz its easier" or something, and I can see that its easier, but its not nearly as practical as DA, and certainly not as reliable IMO.

Or you can elect sincere dems and then when they get into office they realize the structural forces that make capitalist politicians shitty work on them too. My city has a tradition of progressive mayors. Really, really sincere progressive mayors. Like the socialist Tom L. Johnson who started public bath houses since nobody back then had running water. He also put up signs in the public parks telling people they were public parks and poor people were allowed to use them. He even took iww agitator elizabeth gurley flynn out to lunch and gave her dad a city job. But when there was streetcar strike, Johnson had to fight against the workers because he was the mayor. (http://publications.ohiohistory.org/ohstemplate.cfm?action=detail&Page=010424.html&StartPage=24&EndPage=41&volume=104&newtitle=Volume%20104%20Page%2024).

The Carl Stokes story is way more tragic.

And I think the farther up chain you are, the less the sincere wing of either party matters. They certainly don't matter in presidential elections.

Voting is, as Howard Zinn put it, only"marginally useful." What really matters is the level of mass resistance, working class self-activity.

I usually do vote on ballot measures, tho, because it's a form of direct democracy, even tho totally distorted by money power, corporate media etc, that is, the capitalist context. I voted against Prop 32 in California which would have banned unions using dues money for political purposes. This measure went down. Even tho the unions bankroll the capitalist Democrats in a kneejerk fashion, I don't want the state making these kinds of limitations on worker organization.

I voted for the right to know measure (Prop 37) for genetically modified food because the chemical industry saw this as a badge of dishonor, that would discourage use of their seeds. Monsanto is a seed monopolist that modifies seeds to make the plants adaptive to its poisons, pesticides & herbicides, which poison farm workers & pollute water & air. but in this case the vast money the chemical industry spent defeated the measure.

In this election two states voted to legalize marijuana. Three states approved gay marriage. This still sets up a conflict between these states and the federal state.

I miss him. He was a good ballast on the generic left. One of the folks who knew how to sift through the liberal bourgeois intelligentsia but somehow was still connected to it.

some good points

While voting is clearly an inefficient use of libertarian communists' time and resources, this thread makes me think that debating why voting is a waste of time is a far greater drain on our time and resources.

I think there's the potential for a good article comparing the nearly concurrent renewing/re-endorsing of the political leadership in China and the US. Of course from the bourgeois standpoint the two have nothing in common, but from a more sceptical viewpoint the compare and contrast exercise could be interesting. Within the CCP there appear to be two main factions - the "Princelings" or "Elitist" faction and the Tuanpai (League Faction, from Communist Youth League) or "Populist" faction*. In a funny kind of way there's a degree to which these factions are analogous to the Rep/Dem or other two-party systems of the "democratic" West. The need to represent demographic groupings (The elitists represent the coastal development areas, the Tuanpai the interior), the appeal to "trickle-down" vs welfare economics, blue collar vs finance, etc, etc, all have parallels between both states. Anyway, I think it'd be interesting. And get beyond the "but the US is a democracy..." knee-jerk ideological responses. If the Tea Party, hard-core Reps are claiming that Obama's re-election is "four more years of communism", why not take them (jokingly!) at their word and compare and contrast the two "communist" leadership transitions in Chimerica?**

* If we give credence to Li Cheng of the Brookings Institute's categorisation, which is not a given.
** To use (that vile tory) Niall Ferguson's portmanteau

YESSS!!!!!

Also, just for the record, I still think GlennBeck is a joke account. My money's on Nate. Seriously.

If only you did.........

teh has the right answer for mons. The point isn't to "persuade." It's to point out that the rationale used for preventing some action becomes in fact the justification, the facilitation, of those very actions. That's what capitalism is.

Anyone here remember LBJ vs. Goldwater in 1964: "I will not send American boys 10,000 miles away to do what Vietnamese boys should be doing for themselves."????? You can look it up.

Hey, hey LBJ, how many kids did you kill today?

On the peace-loving, lesser-evil Obama against warmonger Romney (or whatever bogeyman you like):

Just over a year ago, using its British, French and Arab pawns, the Obama administration launched a war in Libya. Thousands were killed, many by Nato bombardments and the devastation and destabilisation of the country has been massive. Today, unemployment, misery and threats to the greater population are far greater than they were before and great parts of the country are being run by armed gangs, jihadists and bandits of all stripes. The US administration, acting here on behalf of US imperialism, has actually boasted of the "success" of the "liberation" of Libya.

Out of the chaos and carnage of Libya has poured thousands of tonnes of weaponry along with gangsters, jihadists and bandits who have now destabilised and terrorised the whole region of the Sahel. They have spread down to Nigeria, killed thousands of helpless civilians and brought the terror of fundamentalist Sharia to millions in this once easy-going, strong in music region. Just like the Bushes, Clinton, et al, the actions of the Obama administration have conjured up the reactionary forces of jihadism, in or outside of the loose al-Qa'ida franchise, by its own actions. And just like these previous administrations, US forces will now work alongside local gangsters, drug dealers, traffickers, etc., in trying to clear up the messthat it has created. But just like previous administrations, it will only make it worse.

One of the successes of the ruling class in this election in my opinion, is how the poor and youth has been mobilised onto this poisonous terrain of being a "citizen democrat". This looks like a major change from say ten years ago, when US elections were treated with cynical contempt for the most part (though cynicism is obviously not enough). In Europe, faced with unprecedented economic attacks, the working class has found it very difficult to see itself as a class which has opposing interests to capital. It's a problem that the workers themselves have to confront and overcome. In the US election, youth, the poor, black and Hispanic elements have been targetted and mobilised onto the grounds of the democratic process of the nation. This further tends to strip them of any class identity. A special mention should be made of the role of the trade unions in the US here which, as good defenders of the national interest, fully played their role in the mobilisation for the "lesser-evil".

More insidious communist trickery. Tell me where the gold is Artesian.

It's hidden within LBJ's plan to disengage from Vietnam.

So, you're telling me that the plan to disengage from Vietnam is merely the form. But the content, that's where the gold is.

not really. most of the poor don't vote in the USA. actually most of the working class don't vote. they perceive that neither party is interested in them.

Well I see the libcom communist party has banned my account 1 last time in order to sensor the truth again. If this isn’t a consiperacy, I don’t know what is. But you guys enjoy ignoring the truth, don’t you. Shame on the libcom communist party!

Oh I see, are we still making up things like I’m not a REAL American again. I don’t understand why I have to keep argueing with this. You do realize half of America didn’t vote for Obama right? You guys still don’t get that most Americans are aware that he is a principled communist and can only introduce his programs are through Stalin like progressivism. Stalin can get away with them with one clean sweep, but Americans are wiser than the ruskies and know what real freedom means. The only way obama can do this is through socialized medicine that gives away free insurance, acts like a Christian (even though everyone knows he is a faker liberation theoligist), and does PR campains like shaking veterans hands without serving a single day in the DoD. Honestly, my taxes have gone up tons since 2008. I had to forclose on my home due to the Obama housing crisis. And yet there is no sign of any turn around. He doesn’t care about you or me. And yet Obama is the unanimous victor amongst libcom.org opinion. Mitt Romney was no perfect candidate but at least he loves his country enough to talk up Capitalism and understands economics better. We might not have a Castro Communist Country yet, but its becoming a growing force in the culture.

Why is it so hard to admit to this because you know its true?

I’m not going to bother with a website that sensors what real americans think and fell. This is my last post until next big socialist agenda creeps through the cracks and I will be there to expose the truth once again.

I sense the truth. There! It's over there!

Come on, give it up. Who wants to take a bet on which one of our regular posters GlennBeck really is?

FOR FREEDOM, TAXES, AND COMRADE OBAMA! Thus spoke glennbeck1777

glennbeck1777 FOR PRESIDENT! BETTER DEAD THAN RED!

The democrats copied what Rpmney did with healthcare in his state and the new federal healthcare law, as is the case in Romneys state, forces everyone to buy private for profit healthcare while massively cutting medicare/medicaid and even funding for abortions. The people who wrote this legislation are capitalists, namely, insurance companies. Those damn communist insurance companies are in collusion with the communist banks and communist corporations to force global communism communist commie pornography onto the children.Ron Paul.

Will someone already ban glennbeck for revealing libcom's true motives?

Besides the whole labeling me a person I'm not, my name is Mike by the way, I chose Milgram for his studies on obedience to authority, besides all that I knew it was only a matter of time before I was called racist, sexist and homophobic for questioning the atmosphere at Occupy events in the Bay Area. There's no contempt for women, the gay community or people of color my criticisms center around, and you know it, the tendency to spotlight identity issues at the cost of, well, pretty much anything that has do do with socialism. This isn't to say we don't NEED to be fighting to end (right now, under capitalism) racism/sexism/homophobia my point is all too often people are doing so without the goal of socialism in mind.

Explain for the people in this thread the thinking behind changing the name from Occupy Oakland to Decolonize Oakland. Lets start with that. I mean, it went as far as the term "wage slavery" being called racist. Occupy Oakland turned into a circus of identity politics. You know it, I know it and the ruling class knows it and loves it.

Addition/edit: To the original poster and anyone who thumbs upped his/her post which consisted of throwing around insults, explicitly, saying I'm racist/homophobic/misogynist and full of hate for my questioning of the environment at Occupy Oakland - the person who wrote that and the people who agree with him should expand on that please. Explain yourselves if you can. Thanks. (this reminds me of 2007 when I was called racist for poking at 'socialists' who were suffering Obama fever, the same sort of people in the Bay Area pushing identity politics,clears throat, certain lifestylist anarchsts and ISO members).

Half of America didn't vote for neither judging by past voter turnout.

So effectively only about a quarter of 'Muricans voted Bronco Bamma1.

But Romney still got fewer so this is a funny point to make, glenn mabboy. God must hate the Christian Right so bad.

Where is your God now?

• 1. Don't call bull on my calculations, they're FLAWLESS

The tendency for people on the socialist left to do this sort of thing is common and alienates HUGE portions of the population. Besides what was just done to me in this thread there's another example of it happening on this forum. A poster in the thread concerning some idiots on facebook here:

http://libcom.org/forums/general/disturbing-comments--08012012?page=2

Post #11.

Here is the channel in question: http://www.youtube.com/user/mr1001nights

I've criticized his sophomoric criticisms of feminism for about two years, I deleted my youtube account a few months back, youtube=yuck, but my criticisms centered around his total lack of Marxist/socialist/materialist analysis, his use of evolutionary psychology and as with the poster Transcona Slim have chipped away at his silly primitivist views but to call him a fascist is so off base I don't even know where to begin. Yes he's criticizing feminism and his criticisms are lame but does this make him a fascist? Should we oppose all criticisms by labeling people fascist, racist, misogynistic and full of hate? Do you not see the absurdity in that? Thats the path to total and complete irrelevance in my opinion.

Shouting people down with such labels/slander only serves to....well, what does it accomplish? The same thing was pushed on the poster "Mr Jolly after post 10 in this thread although much more civil, in that case actual discussion took place.

http://libcom.org/forums/general/split-afed-privilege-theory-new-starting-point-thread-01112012

Thousands of real world examples exist as well, I'm just using the posts on this site as a small example.

Also, on the topic of "Decolonize Oakland" which was used to label me a racist, I'd be interested if any of the mods on libcom can resurrect the thread discussed here: http://www.revleft.com/vb/libcom-anarchism-people-t147585/index.html?t=147585&highlight=Libcom+native+americans

From what I gather, according to the poster who was defending "Of Martial Traditions & The Art of Rebellion" the majority of posters on libcom are also racist because they see national liberation of indigenous peoples under capitalism to have fuck all to do with socialism/anarchism. Soo...Hieronymous, what are you doing to fight this evil axis of hate and racism on libcom?

When you're done being a coward you can also address why you're trying to give me the label of misogynist and homophobic. In lieu of just "downing" my posts come at me with some content please. It's chicken shit as chicken shit can get to just label someone "racist, misogynistic/homophobic and full of hate" then just crawl into some hole and hide. Pretty easy thing to do on the internet. Anyone who's upping his posts and downing mine on the subject is free to explain to me why I'm racist,homophobic, misogynistic and full of hate. as you can tell I'm somewhat pissed off. Thanks.

CRUD, you're one to talk of content. Also, you act as if you were born yesterday, like we haven't been discussing some of these topics for years.

I looked up the poster 'crud's' comments surrounding Native American struggles and sorry to tell you that poster, from what I read, would be on board with "Decolonize Oakland". Plus anyone with the name 'crud' by definition is probably going to be full of shit.

crud (krd)
n.
1. Slang
a. A coating or an incrustation of filth or refuse.
b. Something loathsome, despicable, or worthless.
c. One who is contemptible or disgusting.
2. A disease or ailment, imaginary or real, especially one affecting the skin.
3. Sports Heavy, sticky snow that is unsuitable for skiing.

By definition the guy is an idiot or at the least "contemptible or disgusting". Now, lets move past your strange fixation on this crud poster (red herring much?) and get to my point. Why am I , Mike, racist sexist, homophobic, full of hate as you said? All you have to do is explain that and if you recived my PM I'd also like to know who you are and which organizations you work with here in the Bay Area. A little less anonymity might go a long way as it's quite easy to slander a person when you have no real world answering to do. Do you go around here in the Bay Area accusing everyone of racism/sexism/homophobia and hate or is this simply limited to people who don't agree with failed approaches to organizing/guiding a mass movement?

Take the wage slavery issue, you do remember that correct? Things got so absurd that the term wage slavery and the people who use it weer labeled racist. Getting ahead of myself here, why don't we start with explaining the thinking behind "Decolonize" Oakland?

The larger point here Hieronymous is what I was saying in the 'death of occupy" thread, that attitudes like yours are responsible for the fizzling away of participation in occupy events. You and people like you are "working class repellent". Your mindframe is that the working class is so racist, so misogynistic and full of hate that at all mass actions against capitalism identity issues need to take CENTER stage. Even workers with an advanced understanding of socialism are reactionary (according to Decolonize Oakland). This was the stance of "Decolonize Oakland". That the white activists have no clue and all see/experience the world through the eyes of imperialism and need to take a back seat to the women and people of color as they lead us to a new society. It's pretty divisive stuff. It pits men against women, gays against straights, trans against feminist, women of color feminists against white feminists, super poor against the marginally poor working class so on and so forth. Decolonize Oakland went as far as to criticize workers who have a place to live, as in a small rental. Decolonize Oakland went as far as to criticize home ownership. Criticized the racist white' mentality of socialist organizers/participants in Occupy Oakland. Turned every assembly into a joke. Made the labor day march a fucking mess and mixed with the gutter punk lifestylist anarchists who think they're a sort of Leninist vanguard are solely responsible for working class participation in Occupy Oakland events dwindling down to nothing. You/they will blame cops and the city, two actors who do share responsibility in the dwindling of working class support but as I said in the other thread a serious look inward is needed before we go forward with any more prolonged or even short term "mass actions". The working class saw what we had to offer and they said NO THANKS. You know this deep down but aren't willing to admit it. Either that or you're so infused with this specific sub culture in the Bay Area activist community that you can't see it.

http://decolonizeoakland.org/2012/09/17/occupy-was-never-4-me-1-yr-later/

The above article/rant is just one small example. My answer to that is YES, the initial goal of mobilizing workers/people in direct action against capitalism WAS for you. It was for women, it was for people of color, it was for the gay community and it was for the homeless, the students, the factory workers, the garbageman, the janitors and air plain pilots. Hell you can even throw the astronauts into the mix. What YOU wanted was a movement ALL ABOUT YOU. Specifically you. The YOU MOVEMENT. The movement that is all 100% of the time solely focused on your identity of a homeless can collector.

Look, she writes for "POOR" led by poor indigenous people. They are the "most oppressed" and deserve a movement 100% about the issues that the poor people of color face. This all branches out with each identity issue a person latches onto and each faction ends up fighting with the other factions for control of the larger overall movement which SHOULD be about ending capitalism. It's all a fucking mess and I'm racist sexist, homophobic and full of hate for pointing this out?

I concur. We can't just have glennbeck telling the whole world what we're up to on the internet. That might wreck our whole 5,000 year plan for world domination. Instead of discussing this on the thread, lets just talk to one another at the next elders of zion meeting. I made a casserole, we just need a volunteer to bring drinks.