More tedious "reverse racism" whining

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meerov21
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Apr 23 2018 11:59

In Russia, I am familiar with the anarchist historians who believe that many or some of Bakunin's anti-Semitic statements were indeed made by him.

Perhaps some anarchists shared these ideas. But in Russia Jewish anarchists used Bakunin's ideas. In 1905-1907 about 50% of Russian anarchists, whose activity was based on the ideas of Bakunin and Kropotkin were Jewish.

Another thing is that any man can have a lot of dirt. Bakunin along with a brilliant ideas spewed this abomination, so what? It is not an excuse for modern anti-Semites, such as these anti-Semites in universities who, by contrast, do not make an anarchist revolution.

radicalgraffiti
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Apr 23 2018 14:11
Mike Harman wrote:
jolasmo wrote:
given that this stuff has sadly been rife on the left for over a hundred years:

While Bakunin did say some anti-Semitic things, no-one has yet been able to find the original source for that quote - in fact the thread is literally about trying to find a source and running into a wall. So I don't think it's useful to then repeat it here as an example.

according to this https://libcom.org/forums/history/bakunins-antisemitism-25082016?page=1#comment-584794 its from "Lettre aux Internationaux de Bologne. Pièces explicatives et justificatives No. 1" and "Rapports personnels avec Marx. Pièces justificatives No. 2."
which is in the Collected Works CD-ROM

the French Wikipedia references what seems to be the same quote https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikha%C3%AFl_Bakounine#Antis%C3%A9mitisme to Michel Bakounine, Œuvres complètes, éditions Champ libre, 1974, volume 2, L'Italie 1871-1872, page 109.

unfortunately the complete works does not appear to be available on the internet, but it does seem to be real

jolasmo
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Apr 23 2018 15:19
meerov21 wrote:
Mikhail Bakunin was a great revolutionary theorist and practitioner of anarchism. He fought for the self-government of revolutionary communes and workers ' associations. At the same time Bakunin had dirty anti-Semitic ideas. We should see this figure as a whole, with all its advantages and disadvantages. Bakunin made and wrote a lot of great, but he also had this dirt. And in the case of racist students, I see a lot of dirt, but I don't see any anarchist potential. Did they fight for the uprising of the Commune against the government or for the Autonomous self-government of labor collectives? No.

Have you ever fought for the uprising of the Commune against the government, or for the Autonomous self-government of labour collectives?

meerov21 wrote:
Tell that to white racists who "don't feel safe" in the presence of African-Americans and ask them to leave the restaurant or University and make some space "for white people only".

Why would I? That's a totally different type of demand. The fact that it can be expressed in formally similar language is neither here nor there. You can't simply ignore the context of racialised power dynamics at work here. In the same way that a trade union office is not the same sort of thing as an exclusive club for wealthy businessmen, a space reserved for black students to meet, discuss and organise is not the same sort of thing as a whites only student body.

no1
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Apr 23 2018 15:23
radicalgraffiti wrote:
according to this https://libcom.org/forums/history/bakunins-antisemitism-25082016?page=1#comment-584794 its from "Lettre aux Internationaux de Bologne. Pièces explicatives et justificatives No. 1" and "Rapports personnels avec Marx. Pièces justificatives No. 2."
which is in the Collected Works CD-ROM

the French Wikipedia references what seems to be the same quote https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikha%C3%AFl_Bakounine#Antis%C3%A9mitisme to Michel Bakounine, Œuvres complètes, éditions Champ libre, 1974, volume 2, L'Italie 1871-1872, page 109.

unfortunately the complete works does not appear to be available on the internet, but it does seem to be real

if you search google books, it does come up with that quote in the search page, but doesn't seem to want to show the actual book page 109, so can't ascertain its credibility and context. Here's the bit it shows (in French):

Quote:
Eh bien, tout ce monde juif qui forme une seule secte exploitante, une sorte de peuple sangsue, un parasite collectif dévorant et organisé en lui-même, non seulement à travers les frontières des Etats, mais à travers même toutes les différences d'opinions politiques, ce monde est actuellement, en grande partie du moins, à la disposition de Marx d'un côté, et des Rothschild de l'autre. Je sais que les Rothschild, tout réactionnaires qu'ils sont, qu'ils doivent être, apprécient beaucoup les...

anyway, pretty horrible stuff........

meerov21
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Apr 23 2018 16:38

p.s.
I know that some will try to answer that black Americans have experienced centuries of oppression and they have the right to claim that they "do not feel safe when there is a white man in they place." Do you even know what that sounds like? An ordinary white guy from the family of a worker, an engineer or a clerk, hears a statement that he is dangerous for someone. He has nothing against black Americans, he works and studies 12 hours a day to get an education, he is our potential companion and he is told that he is dangerous simply because he is not dark enough. That's crazy.

And moreover, who do they call "white" at all? An Irish whose people have been subjected to terrible humiliation, genocide, violence and exploitation for centuries? A girl from a white worker family who grew up in an atmosphere of Patriarchal violence? A Jew whose grandparents were killed by Hitler? Are you okay?

Finally, our goal is to unite whites, blacks, Jews and any kind of students and workers, not to accept racist prejudices and various forms of racial exclusion and apartheid. The socially revolutionary idea is unity, not apartheid.

meerov21 wrote:
Mikhail Bakunin was a great revolutionary theorist and practitioner of anarchism. He fought for the self-government of revolutionary communes and workers ' associations. At the same time Bakunin had dirty anti-Semitic ideas. We should see this figure as a whole, with all its advantages and disadvantages. Bakunin made and wrote a lot of great, but he also had this dirt. And in the case of racist students, I see a lot of dirt, but I don't see any anarchist potential. Did they fight for the uprising of the Commune against the government or for the Autonomous self-government of labor collectives? No.

jolasmo
Have you ever fought for the uprising of the Commune against the government, or for the Autonomous self-government of labour collectives?

Your question is not directly related to the topic of discussion, but the answer is Yes. I participated in a strike of miners near the house of the government of Russia, I within six months helped the workers who seized machine-building plant in the city of Yasnogorsk and which were attacked by police, I tried to organize a network of the working resistance during a number of years, connecting fighting Autonomous collectives at factories in Rostov, Vyborg, Moscow. I was not alone for sure and also don't think I'm even in one millimeter closer to the achievements of Bakunin. I respect the great revolutionary and anarchist Bakunin, although at the same time I am disgusted with his anti-Semitism. And your students are just a bunch of racists who hate Jews.

Mike Harman
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Apr 23 2018 16:47
meerov21 wrote:
know that some will try to answer that black Americans have experienced centuries of oppression and they have the right to claim that they "do not feel safe when there is a white man in they place."

If you tried to organise a meeting and someone tried to attend, then wrote a big article ranting about how racist you were, would you want to invite them to your next meeting? Given these kinds of apocryphal stories about student intolerance regularly get picked up by outlets like Breitbart you could reasonably expect such an article to generate right-wing backlash, possibly including doxxing members of the student org that organised the meeting in the first place. Not really conducive to holding political meetings 'safely'.

Fleur
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Apr 23 2018 18:23

Just hypothetically, because the opening article is very poorly expressed, supposing there was a meeting organized by a black student caucus why would an elderly white journalist even really want to attend, let alone feel entitled to be there? Why did he feel the need to push his way into somewhere he wasn't invited? Does he gate crash weddings too? Show up at parent and baby groups, without kid, and just expecting to be found a space?Just because a something is a political meeting, it doesn't make it open to any random person who feels like showing up. This guy needs a serious lesson in being polite if you ask me. Someone should point out to Mr Entitled that it's not all about him.

meerov21
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Apr 23 2018 21:00


Mike Harman
If you tried to organise a meeting and someone tried to attend, then wrote a big article ranting about how racist you were, would you want to invite them to your next meeting? Given these kinds of apocryphal stories about student intolerance regularly get picked up by outlets like Breitbart you could reasonably expect such an article to generate right-wing backlash,

I publish this note here, not In NY-Times which is read by hundreds of thousands of people.

As for Dorfman, as far as I know, he published this article after visiting most of universities, and in Russian, though in a large newspaper. What, he was supposed to keep quiet about it?

Oh, again, I don't have to tell the truth, because it can be beneficial to the "Alt-right"? Stalinists said this. They said: if you criticized Communist party and USSR, you are helping the capitalists. USSR opposes capitalists, and if you show that the USSR is shit, it can strengthen capitalists or just US.

But You know what? Fuck the USSR!

Anarchism has always been a universalist project. The truth is one for all - a society of self-government without classes and without the state, it is the right of everyone to be heard at the assembly (horizontal method of decision-making) direct action instead of participating in elections and in the judiciary of the state during social conflicts. This means unity of people.

If a person asks me to leave for a while because he wants to be alone, there is no problem. But if he really believes that people with my skin color and nose of a certain shape "are a threat to him" and in our presence this person "does not feel safe", then we must explain why he is not right. But if he strongly insists on it, he's an enemy.

And in this case it is not important what happened to his grandfather 200 years ago: I mean my distant relatives were killed by the Nazis, so what? I hate Nazis but Should i hate the Germans and ask them to leave the room? The horror of what is happening...

meerov21
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Apr 23 2018 21:29

Fleur Does he gate crash weddings too? Show up at parent and baby groups, without kid, and just expecting to be found a space?

In your private home, or in your community of 5 people, you can follow your own rules. You can make a commune only for whites, only for blacks, and only for Jews. I don't like it at all, but at least it doesn't affect anyone directly. But the University is a large common space of people of different races. Nobody has the right to demand that people of a particular race is gone. It is apartheid and a direct attack on the people of another race.

Otherwise, it is necessary to arrange in universities "white days" and not to let there black, is that normal? Anarchists and socialists (even authoritarian socialists!) fought against such division or apartheid for the entire 20th century! And here are the people who like it.

radicalgraffiti
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Apr 23 2018 22:15
meerov21 wrote:
Fleur Does he gate crash weddings too? Show up at parent and baby groups, without kid, and just expecting to be found a space?

In your private home, or in your community of 5 people, you can follow your own rules. You can make a commune only for whites, only for blacks, and only for Jews. I don't like it at all, but at least it doesn't affect anyone directly. But the University is a large common space of people of different races. Nobody has the right to demand that people of a particular race is gone. It is apartheid and a direct attack on the people of another race.

Otherwise, it is necessary to arrange in universities "white days" and not to let there black, is that normal? Anarchists and socialists (even authoritarian socialists!) fought against such division or apartheid for the entire 20th century! And here are the people who like it.

so i guess the workers should allow the bosses at there meetings when they are organising in there workplaces

Fleur
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Apr 23 2018 22:31

RG:
You beat me to it! smile

For one, you are correct and I wouldn't let you in my house, largely on account of the homophobia you've expressed in other threads. I've got a low threshold of tolerance for that sort of bullshit.

In addition, universities are not public spaces especially the ones mentioned by Dorfman, they are private colleges and unless you are part of the student body or faculty, they can ask you to leave. Given the weird obsession about students and student politics for the last few years, not to mention all the bullshit and lies written in the press, it's unsurprising that they asked a hostile journalist (who went on to write yet another hit piece) to leave. Also unsurprising is the petulant hissy fit about it from the journalist about being prevented from taking part in a closed meeting. Also not surprising the indignation of people being excluded from something which is really none of their fucking business in the first place.

Fleur
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Apr 23 2018 22:42

Also, cut out your bullshit allusions to slavery and that what happened 200 years ago doesn't matter. You claim to be be well read in history, shut your trap on the subject until you've actually read a bit of American history. Structural anti-black racism is an enormous part of American life in 2018. Obviously you don't understand this, as I can glean from the previous thread you are clueless about it. You don't know what you're talking about and you're managing to make centuries of systematic oppression of black people all about you. You're completely absurd (that's me being nice.)

200 years ago? Yesterday a white supremacist went into a restaurant and shot and killed young black people, having targeted them for their race. Clearly this is on the same level as asking a white journalist to leave a black caucus meeting. You're complaints are just petty and foolish.

Fleur
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Apr 23 2018 22:43

Admin:

Can I call him an ass yet?

infektfm
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Apr 24 2018 21:55

fuck antisemitism and fuck entitled white boys. Identity politics are limited, but there is something to be said about being able to organize around shared oppressions and experiences that are indeed identity specific. Its necessary and unavoidable honestly; there is white supremacy in the class. there is patriarchy in the class. We need to have at least a degree of honesty about that while trying to find a way to cohere movements

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Steven.
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Apr 24 2018 22:52

meerov21, do you acknowledge that some of the working class is racist against people of colour, and that some of the male working class is sexist?

Beyond that, do you think that some sections of the working class do not have the problems of people of colour and women at the forefront of their minds?

If your answer is "yes" to any of these questions, then you must acknowledge the right of people of colour, women and other oppressed groups to be able to organise autonomously, so that they can at least ensure that issues which may just be of primary concern to them, but maybe pushed aside within larger groups, are addressed.

You're using some silly examples from the student movement, like much of the far right, and right-wing media are doing recently.

But autonomous organising within the working class movement has been an important, everyday part of much of the movement for half a century. For example in my workplace, we have self-organised groups for women, LGBT workers and people of colour. This is extremely helpful for all of us, as these groups organise on the half of all workers, however they can prioritise issues of particular import to their members, which often we wouldn't have time to address, say in a general union meeting where we are normally talking about "bigger" picture issues like pay, working hours and pensions. And ensures that issues like racial discrimination, sexual harassment and the like are not just ignored.

On a related note, aren't you in Russia? Which is, what, 99% or more white? Do you really think you are in possession of the REAL TRUTH, whereas all the rest of us who actually live in diverse countries where there are people of colour, are the ones who don't know what we are talking about?

meerov21
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Apr 25 2018 16:37

radicalgraffiti
me wrote:
Fleur Does he gate crash weddings too? Show up at parent and baby groups, without kid, and just expecting to be found a space?
In your private home, or in your community of 5 people, you can follow your own rules. You can make a commune only for whites, only for blacks, and only for Jews. I don't like it at all, but at least it doesn't affect anyone directly. But the University is a large common space of people of different races. Nobody has the right to demand that people of a particular race is gone. It is apartheid and a direct attack on the people of another race.

Otherwise, it is necessary to arrange in universities "white days" and not to let there black, is that normal? Anarchists and socialists (even authoritarian socialists!) fought against such division or apartheid for the entire 20th century! And here are the people who like it.

radicalgraffiti
so i guess the workers should allow the bosses at there meetings when they are organising in there workplaces

What a stupid monstrous racist and anti-Semitic comparison! White or Jewish workers, students, intellectuals who earn their living by their own labor and journalists are not bosses and exploiters!
What?! So "Any Jew is exploiter" ?!

jolasmo
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Apr 25 2018 16:23
meerov21 wrote:
p.s.
I know that some will try to answer that black Americans have experienced centuries of oppression and they have the right to claim that they "do not feel safe when there is a white man in they place." Do you even know what that sounds like? An ordinary white guy from the family of a worker, an engineer or a clerk, hears a statement that he is dangerous for someone. He has nothing against black Americans, he works and studies 12 hours a day to get an education, he is our potential companion and he is told that he is dangerous simply because he is not dark enough. That's crazy

You know, a ps normally goes at the end of a communication and not at the start.

meerov21 wrote:
And moreover, who do they call "white" at all? An Irish whose people have been subjected to terrible humiliation, genocide, violence and exploitation for centuries? A girl from a white worker family who grew up in an atmosphere of Patriarchal violence? A Jew whose grandparents were killed by Hitler?

It's almost like whiteness is a form of systematic social violence and not a fixed innate identity at all.

meerov21
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Apr 25 2018 16:44

meerov21, do you acknowledge that some of the working class is racist against people of colour, and that some of the male working class is sexist?

For sure. Similarly, many color workers are racist and dislike white workers.

If your answer is "yes" to any of these questions, then you must acknowledge the right of people of colour, women and other oppressed groups to be able to organise autonomously,

First, then you must recognize the right of Irish workers and students, or workers of German descent or jews gather separately. Everyone should have equal rights and people should not be obliged to present their suffering as arguments.

Secondly There is a huge difference between the different groups of workers that organize themselves for a common class struggle and a bunch of racists who demand that whites and Jews leave the University as " blacks don't feel safe when they see a whites". This is a racist and anti-Semitic attack. When in 1905 or 1906 the Historic IWW organized a huge strike (as I remember in NY), 24 ethnic groups of workers elected their delegates. But they elected them in the COMMON councils of DEPUTIES for common goals in the struggle against the bosses. And none of them said that he was "afraid of white workers."

On a related note, aren't you in Russia? Which is, what, 99% or more white? Do you really think you are in possession of the REAL TRUTH, whereas all the rest of us who actually live in diverse countries where there are people of colour, are the ones who don't know what we are talking about?.

What?! 20% of the population of Russia are Muslim, about 10 million illegal migrants from Central Asia work in Russia, and as for me I am a Jew (by origin) from childhood familiar with anti-Semitism. What are you trying to tell me?

meerov21
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Apr 25 2018 16:41

I have seen that many people here justify anti-Semitic attacks and insult Jews by comparing Jews with exploiters. (as radicalgraffiti).

Fleur
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Apr 25 2018 17:02
Quote:
What a stupid monstrous racist and anti-Semitic comparison! White or Jewish workers, students, intellectuals who earn their living by their own labor and journalists are not bosses and exploiters!
What?! So "Any Jew is exploiter" ?!

What the fuck are you talking about? Nobody has said anything of the sort. Accusing RG of anti-semitism is totally out of order.

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Steven.
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Apr 25 2018 17:07
meerov21 wrote:
many color workers are racist and dislike white workers.

What is a "color" worker?

And what is your evidence for this?

Quote:
If your answer is "yes" to any of these questions, then you must acknowledge the right of people of colour, women and other oppressed groups to be able to organise autonomously,

First, then you must recognize the right of Irish workers and students, or workers of German descent or jews gather separately.

Firstly, there are plenty of Irish community groups. Does that mean you think that these groups are inherently "racist" against anyone who isn't Irish?

There are also plenty of Jewish groups. Do you think that is a problem?

If not, why are Jewish people and Irish people allowed to meet independently, but black people aren't?

Secondly if you think that people of German descent experience the same sort of discrimination as black people in Western countries please provide evidence for that.

Quote:
Secondly There is a huge difference between the different groups of workers that organize themselves for a common class struggle

so are you saying it is okay then for black workers/women workers etc to organise independently?

Quote:
and a bunch of racists who demand that whites and Jews leave the University

you have not provided any evidence this actually happened. So please provide evidence this happened (the article you link to does not do this, it does not name the date it supposedly happened, any info about who supposedly did it, or give any context to the events. I tried to have a look to independently verify what that journalist said, however I couldn't even find info about Halloween-related protests in November 2016, I just found mentions of ones in November 2015.

Quote:
as " blacks don't feel safe when they see a whites"

Again what is your evidence that anyone said this?

Quote:
When in 1905 or 1906 the Historic IWW organized a huge strike (as I remember in NY), 24 ethnic groups of workers elected their delegates. But they elected them in the COMMON councils of DEPUTIES for common goals in the struggle against the bosses. And none of them said that he was "afraid of white workers."

Firstly I doubt your knowledge of history here, what strike do you claim you are talking about?

Regardless, in subsequent disputes the IWW did organise multiethnic delegate councils. But that's irrelevant here. And as for your final comment saying that people are "afraid of white workers", who has said that? You are just making up bullshit

Quote:
On a related note, aren't you in Russia? Which is, what, 99% or more white? Do you really think you are in possession of the REAL TRUTH, whereas all the rest of us who actually live in diverse countries where there are people of colour, are the ones who don't know what we are talking about?.

What?! 20% of the population of Russia are Muslim, about 10 million illegal migrants from Central Asia work in Russia, and as for me I am a Jew (by origin) from childhood familiar with anti-Semitism. What are you trying to tell me?

So, you reckon you have lots of black people in Russia do you? How many? How many black workers are in your workplace, for example? As you claim to have such great knowledge of black people and how racist they are, this would be useful information. At my work I have around 2000 black colleagues. Not a single one has ever said they were afraid of white workers, or has ever said or done anything which has been alleged was "anti-white". So I'm interested to see your evidence and hear about your personal experience of this

meerov21 wrote:
I have seen that many people here justify anti-Semitic attacks and insult Jews by comparing Jews with exploiters. (as radicalgraffiti).

Again please provide your evidence for this

radicalgraffiti
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Apr 25 2018 18:30
meerov21 wrote:
I have seen that many people here justify anti-Semitic attacks and insult Jews by comparing Jews with exploiters. (as radicalgraffiti).

weird, i though i was replying to you complaining about POC having meetings without white people so they could discuss racism?

meerov21
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Apr 25 2018 20:41

Steven.
You are just making up bullshit

First of all, you have to watch your behavior and words.
Also You are the person who censors my texts, now you have done it a second time, changing the title of the article. As far as I know, Laura Akay already accused you of censorship. Watch your behavior.

me:
many color workers are racist and dislike white workers.

What is a "color" worker?

Anyone who thinks he's not white and has a negative attitude towards white.
Negative attitudes, hatred or racism towards people of different skin colors are widespread among different population groups.
Among black Americans 31% think most blacks are racist, while 24% consider most whites racist and 15% view most Hispanics that way.
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/lifestyle/general_lifestyle/july_2013/more_americans_view_blacks_as_racist_than_whites_hispanics

Firstly, there are plenty of Irish community groups. Does that mean you think that these groups are inherently "racist" against anyone who isn't Irish?

No. But you repeat the arguments to which I have already answered. There is no problem if Irish, Jews, African-Americans or the Koreans come together. The problem arises when they demand that people with a different skin color leave the public space (factory or university, because in the presence of people with a different skin color "they do not feel safe").

and a bunch of racists who demand that whites and Jews leave the University
you have not provided any evidence this actually happened.

I brought here this testimony of a well-known journalist Michael Dorfman who wrote an article about this in one of the largest Russian newspapers:

"At other colleges, all the Whites were asked to leave the student center to grant the people of color a safe space.... " "I tried to engage, but got yelled at and told to get out, the White old male heterosexual. When I told them that I was also an immigrant from Israel, they shouted at me in explicit anti-Semitic statements, screaming “How many Palestinians have you killed?”.

I tried to have a look to independently verify what that journalist said, however I couldn't even find info about Halloween-related protests in November 2016, I just found mentions of ones in November 2015.

Perhaps there is an error in the date, may be it's about the events of 2016 - 2017. If you did not find something there, look for it better. My link is legitimate. Also I wrote to the journalist to comment on it here.

me:
When in 1905 or 1906 the Historic IWW organized a huge strike (as I remember in NY), 24 ethnic groups of workers elected their delegates. But they elected them in the COMMON councils of DEPUTIES for common goals in the struggle against the bosses. And none of them said that he was "afraid of white workers."

Firstly I doubt your knowledge of history here, what strike do you claim you are talking about?

Lawrence, Mass 1912
Video 19.00 -22.00
Elderly man: We formed a General Committee and committees of each nationality, we had 24 nationalities.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ciHHJeCgWk

But that's irrelevant here.

That's for sure relevant here. It's one thing when social groups are organized on the basis of different identities for a common class and social-revolutionary struggle. It is a completely different matter when a group requires the removal of people from a different race from a public place (university or factory).

So, you reckon you have lots of black people in Russia do you? How many? How many black workers are in your workplace, for example? As you claim to have such great knowledge of black people and how racist they are, this would be useful information. At my work I have around 2000 black colleagues. Not a single one has ever said they were afraid of white workers, or has ever said or done anything which has been alleged was "anti-white". So I'm interested to see your evidence and hear about your personal experience of this

Firstly, I use above the statistics, the sociological survey.
Secondly, I worked with people of different races and ethnic groups (Russians, Jews of different ethnic groups, Arabs, Caucasians, Turks, Kurds) and I often saw racist attitudes in all these groups. I did not work with black Americans. My friend, a Jew, a member of Occupy Wall Street, worked with them in NY, with African-American workers and according to him, almost all of them were anti-white racists, although at the same time their racism was not as fanatical as the racism of white Suprematists.

meerov21
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Apr 25 2018 20:40

meerov21 wrote:
I have seen that many people here justify anti-Semitic attacks and insult Jews by comparing Jews with exploiters. (as radicalgraffiti).

Steven.
Again please provide your evidence for this

1 Let me remind you, Dorfman's article is about trying to expel whites and Jews.
me wrote:

"In your private home, or in your community of 5 people, you can follow your own rules. You can make a commune only for whites, only for blacks, and only for Jews. I don't like it at all, but at least it doesn't affect anyone directly. But the University is a large common space of people of different races. Nobody has the right to demand that people of a particular race is gone. It is apartheid and a direct attack on the people of another race.

Otherwise, it is necessary to arrange in universities "white days" and not to let there black, is that normal? Anarchists and socialists (even authoritarian socialists!) fought against such division or apartheid for the entire 20th century! And here are the people who like it."

radicalgraffiti
so i guess the workers should allow the bosses at there meetings when they are organising in there workplaces

Direct identification of white and Jews with bosses. Classical manifestation of anti-Semitism.

2. "At other colleges, all the Whites were asked to leave the student center to grant the people of color a safe space...."

comrade_emma
Sounds like good praxis.

"I tried to engage, but got yelled at and told to get out, the White old male heterosexual. When I told them that I was also an immigrant from Israel, they shouted at me in explicit anti-Semitic statements, screaming “How many Palestinians have you killed?”."

comrade_emma
Again, I am doubtful of his version since he is clearly very biased. What were the "explicit anti-Semitic statements"?

An attempt to justify anti-Semitism by reference to Israeli policies.This was noticed not only by me, so she began to delete her comments.

meerov21
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Apr 25 2018 20:51

"More tedious "reverse racism" whining"

I pay attention to the fact of censorship. I do not write about any "reverse racism".
The second time Steven changes the title of the notes that I publish, for now He turns thet into offensive. This is the freedom of speech that he demonstrates. As for me, this is a fact of deliberate offensive censorship.

meerov21
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Joined: 14-08-13
Apr 25 2018 20:52

"More tedious "reverse racism" whining"

I pay attention to the fact of censorship. I do not write about any "reverse racism".
The second time Steven changes the title of the notes that I publish, for now He turns thet into offensive. This is the "freedom of speech" that he demonstrates. As for me, this is a fact of deliberate offensive censorship.

Steven.'s picture
Steven.
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Joined: 27-06-06
Apr 25 2018 21:14
meerov21 wrote:
Steven.
You are just making up bullshit

First of all, you have to watch your behavior and words.

no I do not, you are the one who needs to watch your behaviour and words, because libcom is a platform for workers who want a revolution against capitalism, racism and sexism. Not people who simply spout alt right talking points with no evidence

Quote:
Also You are the person who censors my texts, now you have done it a second time, changing the title of the article. As far as I know, Laura Akay already accused you of censorship. Watch your behavior.

if you want to post racist shit like this which doesn't get edited, then post it on storm front instead. They won't edit your thread titles to make you look stupid, but we will.

Quote:
me:
many color workers are racist and dislike white workers.

What is a "color" worker?

Anyone who thinks he's not white and has a negative attitude towards white.

Well this is a completely idiotic statement, which doesn't make any sense.

Quote:
Negative attitudes, hatred or racism towards people of different skin colors are widespread among different population groups.
Among black Americans 31% think most blacks are racist, while 24% consider most whites racist and 15% view most Hispanics that way.
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/lifestyle/general_lifestyle/july_2013/more_americans_view_blacks_as_racist_than_whites_hispanics

Did you read the methodology for that survey? It's complete nonsense, it was a telephone survey of 1000 people from five years ago, and there is no indication of what question was asked and how, nor of how many African-Americans were asked that question.

Quote:
Firstly, there are plenty of Irish community groups. Does that mean you think that these groups are inherently "racist" against anyone who isn't Irish?

No. But you repeat the arguments to which I have already answered. There is no problem if Irish, Jews, African-Americans or the Koreans come together. The problem arises when they demand that people with a different skin color leave the public space (factory or university, because in the presence of people with a different skin color "they do not feel safe").

Okay so you're saying it's fine to organise autonomously.

But you are saying it is wrong for black people to tell white people to leave factories and universities.

So in that case please give us some examples of where this is happened. This is such a big issue it should be no problem of you to find say just a tiny handful of examples, so please let me know:
– 10 examples of black workers demanding white workers leave factories because they "do not feel safe"
– 10 examples of black students demanding white students leave universities because they "do not feel safe" - and of course if ever this actually happened there would be specific information available including what date it happened, what university it was at, and how many people were involved.

The bullshit article you link to in the OP includes none of this information. It also doesn't say that black people were demanding white people leave university, just the reporter himself.

Quote:
and a bunch of racists who demand that whites and Jews leave the University
you have not provided any evidence this actually happened.

I brought here this testimony of a well-known journalist Michael Dorfman who wrote an article about this in one of the largest Russian newspapers:

He claims this happened in November 2016, but I can find no confirmation of this. Like I said protests related to this subject happened in 2015. If he can't remember the year only a few months later that makes me doubt the whole rest of his account. And also his account doesn't claim that whites or Jews were told to leave the University. Just that he, personally, was told to "get out".

I don't know about you or your political group, but I know that meetings I have been in have told right-wing journalists to get the fuck out. Not because they were white Jewish, but because they were journalists.

Quote:

Perhaps there is an error in the date, may be it's about the events of 2016 - 2017. If you did not find something there, look for it better. My link is legitimate. Also I wrote to the journalist to comment on it here.

So you're saying that your link is legitimate, but that the year might be wrong. If the journalist got the year wrong, how reliable is the article?

Also explaining the year is important because it would explain the context of the demonstrations. As it appears that your original post is also lying about the nature of these protests.

For example there were protests at Yale, where the reporter says he went, in November 2015, because some white students wore racist Halloween costumes. White students also banned black women from their Halloween party, saying only white women were allowed. There were demonstrations against this by both black and white antiracist students, as you can see from photos of the protests: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2015/11/05/a-confrontation-over-race-at-yale-hundreds-of-students-demand-answers-from-the-schools-first-black-dean/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.86817f881579

As you can see no one is calling for the removal of white people or Jews, and white people are taking part in the demonstrations.

Quote:
Firstly I doubt your knowledge of history here, what strike do you claim you are talking about?

Lawrence, Mass 1912

That's right: not in New York, and not in 1905/6

Quote:
But that's irrelevant here.

That's for sure relevant here. It's one thing when social groups are organized on the basis of different identities for a common class and social-revolutionary struggle. It is a completely different matter when a group requires the removal of people from a different race from a public place (university or factory).

Again your second matter here is completely made up.

Quote:
Firstly, I use above the statistics, the sociological survey.
Secondly, I worked with people of different races and ethnic groups (Russians, Jews of different ethnic groups, Arabs, Caucasians, Turks, Kurds) and I often saw racist attitudes in all these groups. I did not work with black Americans. My friend, a Jew, a member of Occupy Wall Street, worked with them in NY, with African-American workers and according to him, almost all of them were anti-white racists, although at the same time their racism was not as fanatical as the racism of white Suprematists.

That's hilarious, so your entire knowledge of black people comes from what your racist friend told you, and what you read in Russian newspapers. Do you think that maybe that's not a great basis for forming opinions on a group of a couple of billion people?

Firstly I doubt your friend even told you that (as why the hell would people who didn't like white people spend time with Occupy Wall Street – mostly a group of white people so annoying I wouldn't spend time with them if you paid me). But if he did, you can get him to come on here and back up his argument.

radicalgraffiti
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Joined: 4-11-07
Apr 25 2018 21:52
meerov21 wrote:
radicalgraffiti
so i guess the workers should allow the bosses at there meetings when they are organising in there workplaces

Direct identification of white and Jews with bosses. Classical manifestation of anti-Semitism.

if i said anything about jew quote it, cause otherwise it seems like you are just calling "anti-Semitism" to shut down discussion
are you claiming that white people not an group that is on average better of than people of other races in America and that being the case dont have the experience of what racism is like for black people?

meerov21 wrote:
2. "At other colleges, all the Whites were asked to leave the student center to grant the people of color a safe space...."

comrade_emma
Sounds like good praxis.

"I tried to engage, but got yelled at and told to get out, the White old male heterosexual. When I told them that I was also an immigrant from Israel, they shouted at me in explicit anti-Semitic statements, screaming “How many Palestinians have you killed?”."

comrade_emma
Again, I am doubtful of his version since he is clearly very biased. What were the "explicit anti-Semitic statements"?

An attempt to justify anti-Semitism by reference to Israeli policies.This was noticed not only by me, so she began to delete her comments.

tbh shouting “How many Palestinians have you killed?”." at someone who has just said they came from Israel sounds like a nationalist statement rather than an anti-Semitic one like accusing Serbs of being genocidal maniacs, of cause they may be motivated by anti-Semitism in their opposition to Israel,, and they may have said other more blatantly anti-Semitic things, but based only on whats actually written down calling emma a supporter of anti-Semitism seems to be jumping to conclusions

Fleur
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Joined: 21-02-12
Apr 25 2018 22:22

So supposing this thing actually happened, white people were asked to leave the student center. Not the university, not the campus, not classes but the student center, in which a meeting was about to take place. You know, one of those places in universities specifically set aside for student meetings.Presumably this is a center/student union meeting room, similar to ones in colleges I have been familiar with, where all kinds of groups gather to have meetings. Meetings which are specific to those groups. Meetings in which unaffiliated random members of the general public cannot reasonably be expected to able to sit in on.

So, I wander off to my local college and hang out in their common room and a meeting for the student hockey society is about to take place and they decide to ask me to leave because I'm not a hockey player, not even a student and quite frankly they don't know who the fuck I am and they're concerned that a rival college's hockey team have been trying to find out what their game strategy is and not knowing me from Adam, they may be worried that I might be actively hostile to them and even write up their defense tactics in the rival student paper.Obviously they are going to ask me to leave.

I could put up a fuss about this, explain that I'm not a bad hockey spy. I could say that I'm being actively discriminated against because I am not on their hockey team. I could start yelling something or other about freedom of speech and my right to assemble where I please but all these things would make me look like a right prick because I wasn't invited to this party in the first place and what they do in there is none of my business.

People have the right to exclude anyone the fuck they like from a meeting and if a group of black students decide to exclude an entirely unknown white guy from a meeting about racism that is totally reasonable.He had no inherent right to be there in the first place. Michael Dorfman is just a spoiled, entitled, petulant fool who threw a tantrum because he couldn't just barge into someone else's business. What a dick.

Fleur
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Joined: 21-02-12
Apr 25 2018 22:29

As an aside, who is Laura Akay?

Also, I've not exactly heard many things about the quality of Russian newspapers. In this new cold war era *sigh* American media take pot shots at Russians, Russians sling mud back. It's all very tedious and difficult to believe in the veracity of any of it.