Is Labour's Anti-Semitism "scandal" conclusive proof that the reformists will never be allowed anywhere near power?

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ajjohnstone
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Jul 26 2018 23:48

If the Guardian and the Dail Mirror and the provincial press like the Scotsman et al all joined in with a joint editorial, perhaps they would be deemed reflecting the opinions of a wider constituency than just the ruling class, but as i said i did take the point on board althogh i am not a 100% convinced and remain open to further arguments on the question

We ourselves represent the interests of the working class but i doubt many would say we that we represent the working class as a whole at the moment.

I won't cite to you innumerable polls but they are very consistent that the vast majority of Jewish people in the UK (and across the world) have sympathies (although often with various degrees of caveats) for the State of Israel. This was not always the case before its establishment. Even many anti-Israeli policy commentators such as Chomsky and Finkelstein accept the state of Israel to exist. According to the IHRA, because we do not, we are anti-semitic. An example would be that all those who voted against Independence in 2014 are self-hating Scots and those non-Scots who supported the No campaign are anti-Scot racists. (ok i accept it is not a perfect example but does show where we can go with this)

But it is to be noted that the main centre of dispute now is on the question of Israel's legitimacy and the hope that anti-Zionism is accepted as a form of anti-semitism and that is a geo-political issue. I hazard to suggest that an analogy would be the defence of the USSR's interests initiated by Moscow's Comintern directives by the CPGB being a primary drive for many of their foreign affairs positions.

I did in an aside recognise that the "controversy" is being used by others to attack both Corbyn and the Labour Party. And indeed the media is exploiting it, trying to create the news-worthy narrative i think it does not really deserve.

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Vlad The Inhaler
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Jul 27 2018 14:23

Having thought about the complex motivations for starting this thread I've come to the conclusion that what I was, inexpertly, trying to say is that I have been alarmed at the depths that the ruling class has stooped to, given the relative moderacy of what Corbyn actually proposes. I mean, its fairly milquetoast Keynesianism even by historic Labour standards. There's no talk of squeezing the rich until the pips squeek, there's no talk of immediately nationalising the key industries, they're not even breaking from the Tory language where everything is reduced to mere economics , i.e - "That which is good for the economy, is good for the people'. Its a far cry from the political economy Old Labour used to at least pay lip service to.

The extended point, given that no one here is a Labourite, is that ferocity of the ruling class' offensive suggests that something material, fundamental has changed and this has profound implications for the rest of us.

To enact the change that we all want to see we need revolutionary ideas to travel as broadly as possible and to penetrate as deeply as possible into the consciousness of the working class. These revolutionary ideas will always be mediated/censored/fought by the ruling class and they have the ear of the working class through the media to the extent never before seen. Everywhere and anywhere an example of the movement bringing change will be met with a ferocious barrage of ruling class propaganda against us.

It seems to me any notion of being "respectable", "legitimate", or "legal" goes out of the window. I'm struggling to see any way we can possible play their game and not be utterly routed. Its not a conclusion that I am at all comfortable with.

Spikymike
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Jul 27 2018 14:48

And then critical Corbyn supporter Tony Greenstein sticks it to Margaret Hodge and her media support (making one or two valid points in the process) here:
https://weeklyworker.co.uk/worker/1213/not-fit-for-purpose/
Also it seems some in Israel have also been accused of being 'antisemitic' for this barbed cartoon;
https://theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/26/israel-cartoonist-fired-over-animal-farm-netanyahu-caricature
Edit/PS: there is an overlapping discussion on this thread as well including some useful linked background info here:
https://libcom.org/blog/anti-semitism-rooting-out-oppression-or-ruling-class-hypocrisy-09042018

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R Totale
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Jul 27 2018 18:57
Vlad The Inhaler wrote:
To enact the change that we all want to see we need revolutionary ideas to travel as broadly as possible and to penetrate as deeply as possible into the consciousness of the working class. These revolutionary ideas will always be mediated/censored/fought by the ruling class and they have the ear of the working class through the media to the extent never before seen. Everywhere and anywhere an example of the movement bringing change will be met with a ferocious barrage of ruling class propaganda against us.

It seems to me any notion of being "respectable", "legitimate", or "legal" goes out of the window. I'm struggling to see any way we can possible play their game and not be utterly routed. Its not a conclusion that I am at all comfortable with.

TBH, I think there's limits to this - I'm not sure the latest wave of Corbyn-smearing is that much new compared to the several years of stuff that was thrown at him in the years leading up to the 2017 election (cenotaph-bow-gate being a particular highlight) and yet Labour made significant gains then, and despite everything they're still ahead in the polls now, so the ruling class can say whatever they want in the media, but if it's obviously bollocks then there's no guarantee people'll listen to it. And tbh the decline of traditional media in favour of relatively (stress the relatively) decentralised forms of social media is very much a double-edged sword, but I think it has undermined the ability of the ruling class (or is it best to say the ruling faction of the ruling class?) to straightforwardly transmit their ideas through the media, even if what's currently filling the vacuum isn't that much better.

freemind
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Jul 28 2018 11:53

It sickens me how Zionists are pushing points unchallenged like equating the actions of the Israeli state with Nazi Germany or denying its right to exist(Israel) as Antisemitism.
Gaza is a ghetto like Warsaw although there are differences a racist regime had imprisoned and persecuted another group and punished them in a multitude of ways including executions.
There are no concrete examples of antisemitism per se regarding Labour but a witch hunt against anyone criticising Israel and the BDS.
Most Jews don’t support or identify with Israel/Zionism.
Judaism is a religion not a race.The so called Jewish people are only a “people” in the same way as the Irish or Polish are termed a Catholic people.Zionists blur the lines like the State does on Patriotism in order to claim persecution to further its aims.
Are the Holocaust survivors who condemned the brutal onslaught against Gaza in 2014 anti Semitic?
Of course not but Israel terms them self haters and uses the Holocaust and the suffering of the 6 million to shamelessly justify its racist ethnic cleansing if Palestinians.
Israel’s “purity of arms” is sickening and the butchered of Aushwitz,Treblinka,Sabra and Shatilla and Gaza amongst others are testament to its Nationalist butchery and racism.Racist and Fascistic mirroring Nazi Germany which all Libertarians and Communists should oppose and confront.

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Auld-bod
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Jul 28 2018 16:36

freemind #36

A series of assertions are not a very good way to frame a convincing opinion.

For example:
‘Judaism is a religion not a race’.

Does it therefore follow that there are no secular Jews?

The state of Israel oppresses the Palestinian people shamefully, though to equate its behaviour with the Nazis simply detracts from whatever you’re saying.

Please keep out the sun

Spikymike
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Jul 28 2018 17:39

There is the human race that encompasses people with ethnic and cultural differences. Culture and religion are often entwined in various ways but are not the same, so secular Jews would be culturally Jewish but not religious presumably?

freemind
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Jul 28 2018 22:14

Auld bod
Get in the sun and grow your brain

freemind
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Jul 28 2018 22:15

Auld bod
Get in the sun and grow your brain

freemind
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Jul 28 2018 22:21

Secular Jews or whatever lol Maybe we should talk of lapsed Catholics or non practising Protestants.Phosphorous.bombs,terror,denying the right to life and State terror is an equivalence of Fascism whether practised by Nazi Germany or Israel/Zionism.
The comparison stands and if you can’t grasp that you don’t understand either.

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Juan Conatz
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Jul 28 2018 23:46

I haven't been able to really make out this antisemitism scandal in the Labour Party thing. It seems most people in this thread view it as exaggerated as part of a plot to discredit the Corbynistas. From experience on the American left, antisemitism is often downplayed, papered over or denied, when it actually is somewhat common and tolerated.

freemind is good example of this, they are so in a rage over the state of Israel, which unfortunately leads them into pushing the common antisemitic trope about how Jews are a uniquely manufactured people.

ajjohnstone
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Jul 29 2018 00:58

"Judaism is a religion not a race."

Under UK legislation, being a Jew or a Sikh is actually defined as a race.

The latest Corbyn is an anti-semite piece here.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/28/labour-antisemitism-code-ian-austin-mp-faces-suspension

Quote:
Critics have seized on comments made by Corbyn in 2012 when appearing on Press TV in which he linked a jihadi massacre of 16 Egyptian policeman to Israel.

Corbyn said: “I’m very concerned about it [the massacre] and you have to look at the big picture: in whose interests is it to destabilise the new government in Egypt? In whose interest is it to kill Egyptians, other than Israel, concerned at the growing closeness of relationship between Palestine and the new Egyptian government?...It seems a bit unlikely that would happen during Ramadan, to put it mildly, and I suspect the hand of Israel in this whole process of destabilisation.”

Ivor Caplin, chair of the Jewish Labour Movement, said: “Conspiracy theories underpin a huge swathe of antisemitism. Grand conspiracies about Jews, either individually or as a collective, are antisemitic. The IHRA definition is clear about this. This is why Labour should have adopted the definition in full, including all of the examples. Jeremy needs to provide clarity on his views on this conspiracy theory and any others he may have aired in the past.”

Dave Rich, head of policy at the charity Community Security Trust, said: “The debate about the IHRA definition and Labour’s code has been about the difference between clear antisemitism and criticism of Israel, but often the problem comes with an extreme hatred of Israel, often expressed through conspiracy theories that provide the bridge between the two.”

Juan, Norman Finkelstein does deny strong anti-semite attitudes exist in the US and he recently gave an example...the social acceptance of the president's daughter and son-in-law.

Mike Harman
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Jul 29 2018 01:04
Juan Conatz wrote:
I haven't been able to really make out this antisemitism scandal in the Labour Party thing. It seems most people in this thread view it as exaggerated as part of a plot to discredit the Corbynistas. From experience on the American left, antisemitism is often downplayed, papered over or denied, when it actually is somewhat common and tolerated.

freemind is good example of this, they are so in a rage over the state of Israel, which unfortunately leads them into pushing the common antisemitic trope about how Jews are a uniquely manufactured people.

This is pretty accurate. The media coverage has been a lot more than for example whenTory MPs say the N word, but the response has been entirely defensive and based on either pointing out hypocrisy or outright conspiracy theory, very little actually confronting anti-Semitism.

The Mear One mural (and comments by the artist about it) that was one of the main catalysts of this is so clearly anti-Semitic it was sickening seeing people trying to excuse this.

https://www.vox.com/world/2018/3/29/17168320/labour-corbyn-anti-semitism-mural

Mrntd
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Jul 29 2018 02:55

Jews are more like a collection of peoples with religious and some cultural traits in common, rather than a single people. Historically, the Yiddish-speaker Ashkenazim of Eastern Europe were clearly a single ethnicity, different from others in the region (as opposed to simply being "ethnic Poles/Ukrainians/Russians of Jewish faith"), but they also were of a different ethnicity from Beta Israel of Ethiopia.

The Meir One mural in itself is kinda ambiguous, even though being "ambiguously racist" still isn't good. The artist's comments, through, clearly establish it as antisemitic.

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R Totale
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Jul 29 2018 09:49
freemind wrote:
Secular Jews or whatever lol Maybe we should talk of lapsed Catholics or non practising Protestants.

That's kind of the point though - in, say, 1960s or 1970s Northern Ireland, I don't think you could have escaped the stigma against Catholics by saying "I'm not really Catholic, I've not been to mass in ages." This whole distinction between whether groups are "real races" or not is a complete distraction, unless anyone actually wants to try arguing that Jews have never been discriminated against as a group?

Juan Conatz wrote:
I haven't been able to really make out this antisemitism scandal in the Labour Party thing. It seems most people in this thread view it as exaggerated as part of a plot to discredit the Corbynistas. From experience on the American left, antisemitism is often downplayed, papered over or denied, when it actually is somewhat common and tolerated.

Yeah, there's a lot going on here, and there's been a lot of "rounds" or episodes - I think that there is definitely some antisemitism among the broad Corbyn milieu (with shit on the internet it can be kind of hard to say whether Corbynistas are actually formal members of the Labour Party or not, which must be a fairly tricky issue for the party's disciplinary structures) but also that it is definitely being manipulated. With regards to this current installment of the crisis, it seems to revolve around various professional representatives of "the Jewish community" claiming that the Labour Party is a terrible threat to Jewish people because of... the wording used in their new guidelines about how to fight antisemitism. Which doesn't really seem justified by examining the documents in question: https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/brian-klug/code-of-conduct-for-antisemitism-tale-of-two-texts

So yeah, there are definitely antisemites, cranks, and "my party/movement/ideology right or wrong" blind-eye-turners out there, but that doesn't change the fact that this particular instance seems to be a bit of a fuss over nothing - especially given that, as mentioned above, recent weeks have also seen another more-or-less mainstream UK political party openly welcome a new member most famous for making a video of himself saying "gas the Jews", which doesn't seem to have attracted anything like the same level of scruntiny from the people who're currently so outraged about how antisemitic the new guidelines about opposing antisemitism are.

ajjohnstone
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Jul 29 2018 10:16

Mrntd, on the SPGB forum which is presently down at the moment and in an article i wrote for the Socialist Standard, i have tried to bring some historical perspective to Zionism and anti-Zionism with reference to the Jewish Labour Bund anti-Zionism by pointing out that the Yiddish culture and language was physically attacked by Zionists, meetings conducted in Yiddish were broken up and printers were actually fire-bombed for publishing Yiddish publications so that the resurrected biblical language of Hebrew would prevail and it wasn't until they succeeded in making Hebrew mainstream has the rich heritage of Yiddish been studied in Israeli institutions.

I've also tried to accuse the Israeli government of anti-semitism by its political friendships with Hungary, Ukraine and Poland

One fact that i recently came across is that 50,000 Israeli citizens a year visit their roots in Morocco a country actively engaged in restoring all its synagogues, no doubt for this thriving tourist trade. Morocco also issues second-passports to those Israelis with Moroccan links. Sort of goes against the Arabs are all anti-semite narrative commonly produced in the media.

https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2017/11/02/moroccos-little-idyll-of-jewish-muslim-coexistence PAY WALL

freemind
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Jul 29 2018 10:26

Hello R Totale

pi
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Jul 29 2018 11:50

I have no idea how to judge how widespread (I suspect, maybe hope, not very) such things are in the Labour Party but it exists. I know members fixated on Israel as a unique cruelty. They chant "from the river to the sea" at demonstrations. They wonder how the tail wags the dog re US policy, hinting at conspiracy. They never mention, say, Egypt for it's part in the persecution of Palestinians. They argue, technically speaking, Jews are not a race. And they fail to acknowledge a racist mural for what it is. Seems to me it's the relentless focus, the sum of dog whistles, that screams racism. I don't believe he is anti-Semitic but Corbyn posting approval of the mural is surprising to say the least. Perhaps this suggests, as already hinted at, that the outrage at Israel, the obsession with anti-imperialism (only US imperialism of course), and the company this entails, leads to a slipping into poor thinking rather than being rooted in conscious racism.

At the same time people are lining up to exaggerate all this to hammer Corbyn whilst ignoring racism elsewhere.

To Vlad's question: I think repeating a lie often enough still works but not sure this is a new depth. Gotta admit though, as I try to educate myself politically these past few years I am even less clear about many, many things including the line between revolution and reformism, so what the fuck do I know.

Spikymike
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Jul 29 2018 11:52

In relation to some of the points in ajj's last post thought I'd mention this little useful pamphlet by that old left-wing singer-songwriter Leon Rosselsdon from the Five Leaves Bookshop that I picked up at the last London Anarchist bookfair also available through PM Press and mentioned here;
https://www.leftwingbooks.net/book/content/precious-strand-jewishness-challenges-autthority

ajjohnstone
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Jul 29 2018 22:33

Searching for free text, i came across this, a recording of Rosselson giving an hour and half long lecture

https://sms.cam.ac.uk/media/1923858

ajjohnstone
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Jul 29 2018 22:45

The latest allegation

Quote:
The Board of Deputies of British Jews yesterday accused Corbyn of leading Labour into a “dark place of ugly conspiracy theories”.

Marie van der Zyl, the board’s president, said in a statement: “Even by Labour’s low standards, the last few days have been utterly shameful. In 2018 Labour is not only a party with extravagant levels of tolerance for antisemitism but one which deliberately obstructs measures to counter hatred and punishes those who speak out against it.”

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/jul/29/shocked-my-party-offending-jews-says-labour-mp-antisemitism-ian-austin

mn8
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Jul 30 2018 15:58

The recent accusations concern Labour's definition of anti-Semitism. I think that the right-wing 'anti-Semitism' accusers are shedding any pretence of Israel not being the central focus of their complaints. The controversial 'omissions' of Labour's definition are by most accounts merely to do with Israel and Zionism. They involve protecting Israel. Corbyn has been denounced by politicians as an anti-Semite for this. I think an attack by Conservatives and right-wing Labour based on 'racism' is slightly ironic. I think that Labour would be cautious about passages which could easily target their leader's controversial lack of enthusiasm for Israel. Still, that the backlash has often been focussed on these sections is peculiar.

It's also troubling that claims of 'white genocide' and 'anti-white multiculturalism'are gaining prominence online and etc. At least Antifa are combatting that slightly. Nonetheless, the right-wing are increasingly co-opting the left's language of anti-racism. Likewise, Trump claimed to be 'anti-establishment,' while touting his establishment credentials in capitalist society. All the same, the right-wing is typically fine with inciting Islamophobia and dislike of immigrants.

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Aug 1 2018 09:14

I know not everyone's keen on the source, but I think Seymour has been quite good on this issue: https://www.patreon.com/posts/20431115

ajjohnstone
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Aug 1 2018 10:31

The latest accusation

The Campaign Against Antisemitism (CAA) charge "that the party has, through years of deliberate or reckless dereliction of its duty to enforce its own rules, created an atmosphere in which Jewish members and/or associates are discriminated against,” the CAA’s letter to the equality watchdog said.

Gideon Falter, the chair of the CAA, said: “The evidence shows beyond all doubt that Jeremy Corbyn is an antisemite and the Labour party has become institutionally antisemitic. The problem is not one man but an entire movement which has hijacked the anti-racist Labour party of old and corrupted it with a racist rot.”

Jeremy Corbyn has apologised for speaking at a 2010 event where the actions of Israel in Gaza were compared to the Nazis. The main talk, called Never Again for Anyone – Auschwitz to Gaza, was given by Hajo Meyer, a Jewish survivor of the Auschwitz concentration camp. He repeatedly compared Israeli action in Gaza to the mass killing of Jewish people in the Holocaust.

So we have the CAA basically accusing an Auschwitz survivor of being an anti-semite. Fortunate for them Hajo Meyer is no longer alive to answer.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/aug/01/jeremy-corbyn-issues-apology-in-labour-antisemitism-row

ajjohnstone
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Aug 1 2018 23:28

Another accusation

McDonnell endorsed the International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network (IJAN) which supports the liberation of Palestinian people and land and challenges what it claimed were Israeli attempts to spread false accusations of antisemitism. IJAN is regarded as a radical Jewish fringe group which is thought to have several hundred members in the UK and a couple of thousand internationally. One of its most prominent members was the late Holocaust survivor Hajo Meyer. IJAN’s charter suggested the Holocaust was being used by Israel to give it licence to “perpetrate other atrocities” against the Palestinians and claimed there was a history of zionist collusion with “repressive and violent” regimes including Nazi Germany.

A spokesman for the Community Security Trust, a charity that protects British Jews from antisemitism and related threats, said: “It is extraordinary, but deeply meaningful, that senior Labour figures backed such a tiny extremist grouplet of anti-Zionist Jews. This fringe of a fringe uses the word Zionism in terms of conspiratorial global power, and, unable to actually deny the Holocaust, instead tries desperately to use it to somehow attack Zionism and Israel.”

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/aug/01/john-mcdonnell-praised-anti-zionist-network-ijan-accused-antisemitism

Isn't this an example of how pro-Israeli Jews are using anti-semitism to suppress criticism of Israeli policies? Or am i anti-semitic for suggesting that debate within the Jewish community is being derailed by such charges against those who disagree with Zionism, who forget they were also the fringe of the fringe at one time.

Contrary to this criticism of manipulation of views, Norman Finkelstein has written a book the "Holocaust Industry" revealing just how it is used to defend Zionism and Israel.

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Aug 2 2018 08:26
ajjohnstone wrote:
Isn't this an example of how pro-Israeli Jews are using anti-semitism to suppress criticism of Israeli policies?

Yes, I think you're exactly right. It's so utterly craven, it's shocking to think they've got the brass neck to use the words of a dead Holocaust survivor as an example of anti-semitism. Like, even if I've got some issues with making comparisons between Israel and the Nazis, the idea that you could call a Jew who went through the horrors of the camps an anti-Semite because you disagree with them on Israel is unbelievable.

What's most worrying for me is, in apologising, I feel like Corbyn etc are now allowing opposition to Israeli atrocities to become taboo/politically incorrect. From the last article you linked above, McDonnell is accused of supporting a group which gave

Quote:
a voice to Jews who condemned Israel’s “ethnic cleansing” of the Palestinians.

So, not only are Jews opposing Israel again accused of anti-Semitism, but describing Israel as having carried out ethnic cleansing now gets scare quotes! And yet, what else could you call the war of 1948 that led to hundreds of thousands of Palestinians being forced to flee their homes?

Saw John Lansman on Channel 4 News the other day (see video below) and some guy from Jewish News discussing the IHRA definition and I felt like neither wanted to get into this part of the discussion: the Jewish News guy knew he wouldn't have a leg to stand on but Lansman, too scared to be accused of anti-Semitism, played into his hands as well by avoiding it and so accepting the underlying premise that calling the State of Israel a racist endeavour is anti-Semitic. Why he doesn't just lay out some historical facts and then say, "look, you tell me if that's racist or not" I don't know.

Apologies for the rant. You may or may not have guessed that I've been doing a lot of swearing at the telly recently...

ajjohnstone
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Aug 2 2018 09:41

More accusations against Labour/Momentum

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-party-antisemitism-momentum-barnet-jews-jeremy-corbyn-israel-a8473501.html

ajjohnstone
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Aug 2 2018 09:53

https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/jamie-stern-weiner-norman-finkelstein/american-jewish-scholar-behind-labour-s-antisemitism-scanda

A couple of years old but i think a good rebuttal by Norman Finkelstein of this "controversy" and its hypocrisy.

no1
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Aug 2 2018 15:51

Mainstream political discourse has become totally debased in the UK. Here's a film/interview with Hajo Meyer (who Corbyn apologised chairing a meeting for) in which he talks about his experiences of surviving Auschwitz, esp resisting the process of dehumanisation in the concentration camp. The Nazis tried to dehumanise him by turning him into a number, now the British media have posthumously turned him into an anti-Semite.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ph6snSt2quI

(the interview is in Dutch, but it's got English subtitles)

ajjohnstone
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Aug 3 2018 05:34

What puzzles me is why there is little to no defence against the charges.

I came across this recently

"Looking at the political spectrum of British society, the most antisemitic group consists of those who identify as very right-wing. In this group about 14% hold hard-core anti-Semitic attitudes and 52% hold at least one attitude, compared again to 3.6% and 30% in the general population. The very left-wing, and, in fact, all political groups located on the left, are no more antisemitic than the general population. This finding may come as a surprise to those who maintain that in today’s political reality, the left is the more serious, or at least, an equally serious source of antisemitism, than the right..."

https://cst.org.uk/public/data/file/7/4/JPR.2017.Antisemitism%20in%20contemporary%20Great%20Britain.pdf

Published only last September by the Institute for Jewish Policy Research that the Community Security Trust helped fund that put the lie to the hysteria of Labour Party anti-semitism.