anti germans

So what does it mean? I assume there must be some substance behind the usage. Some substance that would indicate that it's not simply meant to mean a nation-state which is particularly eeeeevil.

all nation states are essentially evil. Well done.

In the case of israel, there are ongoing activities - colonial ones - which kick people out of their homes to house settlers. We can talk about this, and act if we want to, in the here and now.

Quite tame compared to the golden age of empire, but that is not my problem or yours; so Zionists have chosen to do this sort of thing about 100 years out of date, more people have spoken out about it than would have done back in 1850, are these people speaking out racists, no.

No they aren't.

Are you some kind of muppet obsessed with one stupid element of left thought which you have nurtured into the most ridiculous abberation of politics we have seen yet?

Yes you are.

You haven't answered my question. What is a "setter-colony apartheid state"?

Your last post indicates you don't really have an answer, which is about as much as I suspected, but I held you for one of the more intelligent sort of anti-semite, the sort that usually has at least a superficially convincing justification for his ressentiments.

ha ha ha

"the anti semite"

He's fucking everywhere mate! Its a conspiricaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

You are the fucking anti semite if anyone pal. You conflate an entire nation of people with one race, and that entire race with the choices of that nations ruling class. Now that my son, that, is racist. Would you call a critic of Mugabe's zimbabwe 'anti-black'?

Maybe you would, your pretty fucking nuts evidently.

It's in the dictionary under 'Israel'

sorry, i must apologise for my racism against the jews, it must come from my israeli jewish anarchist comrades. They are apparently 'self hating jews' in the eyes of right wing zionists (and also 5 people and a magasine in Berlin).

Imagine that: make an anti-semitic argument, and someone dares to call you an anti-semite!

With approximately 194 nation-states in the world, this particular nation-state seems to inspire an inordinate amount of activity among western leftists. Hmm.

BTW, unless you have any actual arguments to make, I'm through indulging your hallucinatory Weltanschauung on this thread. Ciao!

If you bothered to read all the posts in this thread you would see that quite a few people said that Israel is just a state like every single one of them. Bourgeoisie. It is not a unique case in any sense.

If you bothered to read what I wrote, I referred to "western leftists", not "people writing in this thread".

thats because...

because....

THEY JUST HATE JEWS!!!!!!!!!111111111111111111

i see it now!

Angelus - Fuck off.

I'm fucking sick of non-Jews claiming to have any sort of special knowledge of what Jews want or need in order to be safe, whether they be ultra-right Christian Zionists or anti-Deutsch.

Telling me that, because I'm Jewish, I have more in common with Ehud Olmert than with non-Jewish workers right here in New Zealand, is far closer to antisemitism than anything Tacks has said in this thread.

In solidarity (but not with you),
Asher (about as Jewish a name as you can get!)

Wow, absolutely none of these assertions were made in this thread. Your hostility is without basis.

That is exactly what anti-Deutsch thought says though, sphinx, even if not explicitly. In supporting Israel because it is the only place Jews can be safe, they are stating that, as I said in my last post, "I have more in common with Ehud Olmert than with non-Jewish workers right here in New Zealand".

In general I am moved to express solidarity with people strugling against oppresion. In this case Palestinians are struggling to regain land taken from their families, struggling against military occupation and struggling against a second class status in an apartheid like system. Only supporting people who agree with you politically is myopic and heartless.

Israel has been settled by colonists in living memory. Many of the previous inhabitants of that land and their families are living in exile. The remaining nonJewish inhabitants live in an apartheid like system with different laws and priveledges for Jews and non Jews.

I am speaking about Israel and not every other oppresive country in the world because the US gives it billions and survivors of Israel are struggling against the continued theft.

Except that, as I've stated repeatedly in this thread, I'm ****NOT ANTI-GERMAN****, so I'll *THANK YOU NOT TO ATTRIBUTE THEIR POLITICAL POSITIONS TO ME*.

I dunno, I guess if one takes the example of an Israeli whose house is destroyed by a rocket, it's just as a shitty as losing it to a military demolition. This sorting out of "good oppressed Palestinians" and "bad oppressing Israelis" seems to be an expression of the ever present leftist desire to sort out nationalists into good guys and bad guys.

So how do you propose people "support" Palestinians?

No strip of land anywhere on this planet is occupied by its "original" inhabitants. Throughout history, ethnically defined collectives have expelled other ethnically defined collectives from land they claimed for themselves.

I think the Ruthless Criticism website gets it exactly right:

"Treated by Israel as well as by the Arab refuge countries as a foreign people, the Arab refugees also drew a wrong conclusion from their situation. Instead of rejecting the just as absurd as brutal volkish assortment – which makes the conditions of people dependent on affiliation to the correct people - and insisting on useful living conditions for themselves and the Jewish citizens, they understood their miserable situation - trained by their political leaders – as caused by the absence of their own state committed to Palestinian nationality and therefore, similarly to Israel, set as a goal the volkish organization of that area of the world for themselves - only with a reverse sign. The practical representatives of this conclusion, those in the PLO as a quasi-representative government of organized Palestinian politicians, since then pursued the project of establishing their own state of “Palestine” in the area claimed and occupied by the Israelis.

Such a program can only be asserted militarily against Israel. The bad luck of the PLO consists in the fact that their opponent is - owing to military and financial support of the USA - the hopelessly superior regional superpower Israel."

http://www.ruthlesscriticism.com/middleeast.htm

The ironic thing about the anti-Germans is how German they actually are. They hold an ideology, which has no resonance on an international level. In fact most people looking from abroad see it as a uniquely German movement. They are the most German of all the German leftists.

Devrim

Ever heard of Anarchists Against the Wall, Tayyush, ISM, IWPS, ICHAD etc.? They do wonderful work supporting Palestinians, and Israelis, without supporting any nationalist outfit be they in command of a state, a Vichy regime or a handful or insurgents with AKs.

They might have got it right if, and only if, they are discussing the diaspora. After all there are plenty of Palestinians living in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, and for them the fight for sovereignty (regardless of what one might think of it) is directly linked to survival. The first intifada was a response to the inability of the PLO to come from the outside as military saviours. It was a very working class revolt, which unfortunately was recuperated by both the PLO and Hamas.

This is very true. But this is not a justification for the colonization and occupation of anyone.

Angelus: You called labelling Israel as a "setter-colony apartheid state" as antisemitic. This is entirely consistent with anti-Deutsch politics.

Devrim: Definately. Anti-Deutsch are every bit as German as those they decry, it just comes out on a different angle.

No, I asked people to supply a definiton for "settler-colony apartheid state". Your inability to accurately represent what I wrote suggests severe reading comprehension problems, or perhaps some mild form of mental retardation.

Which Anti-Germans? ISF/Bahamas? Konkret? ex-BgR/Phase 2? Some of the Jungle World editors?

Oh wait, I forgot, you have no clue about the above groups, and therefore are simply talking out of your ass when you suggest that something is "consistent" with Anti-German politics.

This isn't an argument, it's merely moralism. Are you an indignant teenager?

Some of the names sound familiar. ISM is International Solidarity Movement right? This is the group that recruits people to stand in front of Israeli tanks and things like that? I'd be curious to know what the specific activity of these groups consists of.

What is the benchmark for success in terms of the work these groups do?

"Recuperation" is such a passive term. It makes it sound as if Fatah and Hamas are supernatural forces which just somehow "recuperated" something, rather than actual political entities which people have *chosen* to support.

There's always a "justification" for colonization and occupation. It's just that such justifications mean very little to people on the receiving end.

It's likewise the case for the other ethnically-defined national collective in this dispute. The desperate and grievous situation of people living in the occupied territories is unlikely to move someone who's kid has just been blown up on a bus as the result of a suicide bombing.

Gosh, you seem like you know so much about the Anti-German tendencies! Tell me, what did you make of that dust-up between Hermann Gremliza and Matthias Küntzel a few years back? Also, did you think Udo Wolter's critique of that open letter Elfie Müller and Klaus Holz sent to Jungle World back in 2002 was fair and accurate? Why or why not?

why would he need to know such details to point out that anti deutsch is a hilariously german centric set of ideas with no resonance with the rest of the world? Afterall I don't need to know the difference between various steam powered boats to prcolaim them essentially obsolete to modern long distance transport.

Also even though I'm in agreement with you that lefts treatment of Israel as some special case is absurd, as is it's seperation of nationalisms into oppressed versus oppresser nations or good versus bad nationalisms, this doesn't mean that people cannot express solidarity with the plight of palestian proletarians as proletarians.

No, I know almost nothing about them, nor did I claim to, nor am I particularly interested. To me it seems, as I said, to be a very German phenomenon with little international resonance.

Including the anti-Germans too actually. It comes as no surprise to see that there are different leftists backing different national states, or national liberation struggles. It is part of the stock trade of leftism. The mainstream left supports Palestinian nationalism, and the Anti-Germans support Israeli nationalism. I am not particularly interested in the theoretical gymnastics they go through to end up supporting a different nationalist group.

I have never heard about any of these people, and your whole attitude to this is in my opinion very elitist. You are basically saying that because people in other countries aren't aware of all the details, they shouldn't discuss it.

Devrim

No, but you would have to know what a steam-powered boat is.

not to the level of wanky detail you are harping on about.

I mean do you actually disagree with Devrims point about it or just using it as an oppurtunity to out yourself as an utter gobshite?

Thats you labelling Tack's calling Israel a "settler-colony apartheid state" an antisemitic argument, right there. Perhaps it's you who has the comprehension problem?

revol answered your "point" sufficiently there, I won't bother saying anything else on that.

Tell that to the mothers of children murdered in suicide bombings that I talked to when I was last in Israel in 2004. I have a feeling they might disagree with you though, considering they (there was about 10 of them in the conversation) were at a demonstration calling for immediate withdrawal from Gaza and the West Bank. Oh, and they were yelling at some Israeli Labour Party people almost as much as some anarchists I saw later in the same demo, for similar reasons (although, unlike what happened to one anarchist, no Labour Party hack dared to try to punch any of the mothers).

When the point being made is phrased in terms of "Anti-Germans are..." or "Anti-Germanism is..." then my agreement or disagreement is predicated upon clarification concerning which Anti-Germans, which tendencies of Anti-Germanism.

What is even more irritating is that whenever I point out the double-standards and partisan nationalism of the left, then someone counters with "But the Anti-Germans are also..." or "The Anti-Germans are just as guilty of...", as if I have any interest in defending my political opponents.*

* (but at least I know why they are my opponents)

There is no 'partisan nationalism' coming from me.
Devrim

so are you suggesting there are 'anti german' tendencies with resonance and relevance outside of germany? I mean exactly how much does one need to know about shit to know they don't want it on their toast?

Tack wasn't "calling Israel a settler-colony apartheid state", Tack was claiming that "setter-colony apartheid state" is a synonym for Israel. Do you have difficulties grasping the difference? In absence of providing an *argument* as to what distinguishes Israel from other nation-states, he merely asserts some metaphysical status that distinguishes Israel from all other nation-states. Arguments concerning the particularity of Jews is classic anti-semitism.

Was there an actual argument buried within this personal anecdote?