anti germans

Nor me.

nor me.

He was trying to be funny...

I'm sure you believe that, but when you start doling out portions of "solidarity" to one side in an ethnic conflict simply because that side happens to have the bad luck of not having a powerful army and high-tech weaponry, then you are in fact engaging in partisan activity for a particular nationalism.

Tacks was joking, you fucking moron, as evidenced by the green grinning face accompanying his post.

And as for:

No argument from me there. Anti-Deutsch thought however, is based on arguments of the particularity of antisemitism as opposed to other prejudices (as supposedly the only inherently extinctive prejudice, etc), which to my mind fits the argument in your quote (that I agreed with) like a glove.

It was a comment on your statement that:

Ah. Joke as substitute for argument. Hm.

So take it up with an Anti-German. Why am I obligated to defend a political perspective I don't agree with?

Eh? Who's doing that?

I extend my solidarity to Palestinian proletarians and Israeli proletarians. I certainly don't extend it to members of the Palestinian bourgeoisie (unlike Trots and some liberals and others) nor to members of the Israeli bourgeoisie (unlike anti-Deutsch, Christian Zionists and others).

Hell, to quote something I wrote for the magazine of a local Palestinian solidarity group during the most recent Israeli invasion of Lebanon last year arguing against the predominant leftist support of Hezbollah (that certainly caused some arguments!):

eh what??

Where has Asher said this or me or Devrim?

And if working class palestinians fight back against road blocks, harrasment, house demolition and the like and people express solidarity it becomes immediately equatable to support for a particular nationalism? Is the only solidarity work going on in Palestine that of cheerleading Fatah or Hamas?

In this, anti-Deutsch share a similar tactic (and I'm not equating them here) to the Israeli state (and also many of the large US Jewish institutions) - they are extremely good at convincing their target audiences that there is no such thing as autonomous resistance by Palestinians, and that every piece of resistance is driven by Fatah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad etc. And when they can't do this, they deny the resistance even exists, as happens to much of the "day to day" resistance, such as bypassing roadblocks to find work in Israel or to pick olives in closed military zones, and much of the co-operation between Israelis and Palestinians, such as the fantastic work of the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions (www.icahd.org).

During the year and a bit I spent in Israel, I witnessed or heard about massive resistance against the occupation that never makes the evening news, never gets talked about - these are the sorts of things that working class Palestinians do to survive on a day to day level, but also to build co-operation with working class Israelis (both of Jewish and Palestinian descent).

Maybe we just have different ideas as to what "solidarity" means. "Solidarity" is something I extend to people who share my (anti-)political goals.

If I decide to give 5 euros to a homeless guy, I don't do it out of "solidarity", but out of kindness, pity, sadness, guilt, empathy, or a thousand other sentiments.

If someone wants me to cotribute some blankets and canned food to the occupied territories, I'm game. I won't pretend it has anything to do with struggling for communism.

Who is *they* in the example above?

Unless you can specify what tendency you are referring to, there is absolutely no substantive point being made above.

Do you understand the point being made here at all? If I posted a statement like:

"Anarchists share a similar tactic with trailer trash, in that they both like to fuck their sisters"

you would reasonably ask me to specify which anarchists, no?

I am suggesting that some anti-germans, just like some anarchists, some council communists, some trotskyists, and some social democratics, sometimes say things which are true or relevant.

For example, Phase 2 published an excellent special issue a year or two ago concerning Foucault and Biopolitik. Some of the contributions in that issue I would gladly translate, especially given the interest in Biopolitik sparked by Hardt & Negri's book in most western countries. The fact that the editors of Phase 2 are Anti-Germans is irrelevant.

and where exactly does communism come from? is it a fully formed political goal that people straight forwardly fight to implement or is it a potentiality that stems from working class self organisation and concrete struggles against alienation, exploitation and the day to day tedium, humiliation and poverty of everyday life?

Are such relevant insights exclusive to or even relevant to their actual anti germanism?

As I defined it - anti-Deutsch, the Israeli state and many of the large US Jewish institutions. Which tendencies of anti-Deutsch? I don't know the names, and couldn't care less - it has certainly been a defining feature of all the anti-Deutsch material I have read (a fair amount, although certainly not what I would define as extensive) and the anti-Deutsch people I have talked to, both in person and online (a handful). I have seen nothing to indicate that this might not be a recurring feature across the various strains of anti-Deutsch thought.

That is completely different, in that I can damn near guarantee that fucking your sister is not a common argument in the anarchist theory you have read, whereas what I was talking about is obviously pervasive in the propaganda and theory of anti-Deutsch, the Israeli state and many of the large US Jewish institutions.

edit - just wanted to add my agreement with revol's two posts above this one.

edit 2 - its 2:17am and i'm going to bed, so no more from me tonight...

Should we open up a new thread? I think this has the potential of being an interesting discussion.

Short answer: I don't think communism is "the real movement", and I think the analysis of the fetish character of the commodity in Capital indicates that Marx broke with such historical-philosophical conceptions.

In The Communist Manifesto and the German Ideology, Marx still argues that with the bourgeoisification of society, that social relations become more transparent. In Capital, he argues exactly the opposite. Social relations in capitalism are in fact mystified, it's a different type of mystification than that which exists in pre-capitalist societies.

Exclusive? Perhaps not. But definitely relevant. When someone like Andrea Trumann criticizes thinkers like Agamben for insufficiently theorizing the differences between German national socialism and Italian fascism, it has at least something to do with the specificity of her political background.

Assertion. Sources?

Then you would be completely wrong. For one, because groups like Cafe Morgenland take the position that German leftists shouldn't formulate a position on Israel-Palestine one way or the other. And second, because for the hardcore racist Anti-Germans in the Bahamas milieu, the existence of an autonomous Palestinian resistance independent of Hamas or Fatah would be an irrelevancy, since Palestinians as a national entity are condemned as eliminatory anti-semites.

So you're talking out of your ass again.

Sources, please.

well i don't buy into the 'real movement' stuff whne it's simply rewarmed Hegelian guff which is why I said the it is a 'potentiality', that is it still needs to made.

Eh no, Marx argues that the old forms of mysticism are laid bare under capitalism it does not deny that capitalism throws up it's own 'mysticisms', also the outlines of commodity fetishism can be found in Marx's early work. The idea that Marx makes some break is absolute shit.

Christ you are clutching at straws here. The fact that some anti germans say some interesting and relevant things on some topics doesn't change the fact the central tenant of it is german centric and irrelevant to the rest of the world. Even the example you give there is one of them emphasising the particularism of German fascism.

"Potentiality" here is pretty weak concepts. When I leave my house every morning, there's a potentiality that someone will hand me a 500 euro note, but it's not very likely.

I disagree, but if we argue this, it should be in a new thread. I don't want to taint such a discussion with all the half-assed speculation on this one.

You think the particularity of National Socialism is irrelevant to the rest of the world? I disagree. For one thing, it's just piss-poor analysis to subsume it under the label of "fascism", which is a bad theoretical inheritance from the Stalinist conceptions formulated by Dimitroff.

National Socialism was a form of fascism, yes.

And you think it's a question that has no relevance outside of Germany to ask why Anti-Semitism is an end in itself for this form of "fascism"? Why did these particular fascists endanger their own war effort by diverting valuable resources to the destruction of Jews?

This is a serious question, if you want to discuss it, again, new thread. I don't want it to be embedded in wild speculations about what an Anti-German is by people who've seen as many Anti-Germans as they have unicorns.

Ffs, he is saying that it has no relevance outside of Germany. Which has been his point all along.

Let me get this straight: The Holocaust has no relevance outside of Germany?

Fuck's sake, no wonder you're so tone deaf about anti-semitism on the left.

right so 'anti deutsch' hold a monopoly on the analysis of german national socialism, the holocaust and anti semitism in general?

The point was that the central political tenant of 'anti deutsch' has little relevance or resonance outside of Germany.

What is the central political tenant of all those diverse tendencies?

Careful, your credibility rests upon your ability to give a correct answer.

Damn, you just choose to read things in the most peculiar way.

I wasn't referring to the holocaust. We're discussing the anti-germans no? They have little relevance outside of Germany. You might loose sight of the discussion, but unless I've completely misunderstood Asher, Devrim and Revol they have consistently referred to the anti-Germans. And how on earth could anything called anti-Deutsch have relevance outside of Deutschland since it is rooted in the specifics of the German collective experience.

You can think what you want. You seem to be blind to anti-arabism left, right and center and also seems to think that the jews are the chosen people indeed. Anti-semitism does figure on the left, but it is far from the preposterous proportions that is sometimes claimed. It doesn't come from being anti-semitic, just piss poor class analyses.

No, you idiot, the passage from me you quoted was concerning the specificity of National Socialism, and whether it can accurately be subsumed under the label of "fascism", given the centrality of the Holocaust and anti-semitism.

Citations, please.