Neo-Nazis and far-right protesters in Ukraine

Neo-Nazis and far-right protesters in Ukraine

The far-right in Ukraine are acting as the vanguard of a protest movement that is being reported as pro-democracy. The situation on the ground is not as simple as pro-EU and trade versus pro-Putin and Russian hegemony in the region.

When US Senator John McCain dined with Ukraine's opposition leaders in December, he shared a table and later a stage with the leader of the extreme far-right Svoboda party Oleh Tyahnybok.

This is Oleh Tyahnybok, he has claimed a "Moscow-Jewish mafia" rule Ukraine and that "Germans, Kikes and other scum" want to "take away our Ukrainian state."

This is the party's logo, it can be seen on flag throughout the crowds in Kiev every day.

Svoboda is Ukraine’s fourth biggest party holding 36 seats out of 450 in parliament. They're also part of the Alliance of European National Movements along with the BNP and Jobbik.

This is their old logo, a Wolfsangel rune, a common symbol for European neo-Nazi organizations.

It was also the symbol of the Patriots of Ukraine, a paramilitary organisation Svoboda went hand in hand with until 2004.

A typical crowd shot of Kiev's protests, Svoboda and their fellow travellers have been present throughout the protests.

Here we see a battalion of Patriots of Ukraine paramilitaries tooled up in the midst of the protests.

Pro-EU protesters took over the town hall, we learned from international news reports in December, demanding the government resign.

While it is a broad movement, mainly of the right, it's hard to see a BNP or Golden Dawn led takeover of a town hall getting quite the same publicity.

Here a white power flag takes pride of place centre stage, black circle with a plus sign through it. You can always check the top of stormfront.org if you don't buy it.

Here protesters clash with riot police, one carries a homemade shield painted with a white power symbol and the numbers 14 and 88.

These numbers are common neo-Nazi slogans;with 14 standing for David Lane's slogan (We must secure the existence of our people and a future for White Children) and 88 as code for HH, or Heil Hitler.

Patriots burn flags, while white power flags are flown throughout the crowd. In almost every action shot from these protests far-right symbols are clearly visible.

National socialist group Wotan Jugend has described the experience they are gaining from the protests; "Leaderless resistance What is happening now in Kiev - is a lesson, a lesson to all those who so eagerly watching national revolution taking place in Ukraine, blowing drool with envy at the keyboard."

Originally posted on imgur.com

Posted By

Jim Clarke
Jan 23 2014 14:39

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Khrystyna
Jan 23 2014 16:16

That is not really the whole the truth.
Let me, as a Ukrainian, speak up.
You are right, when you're saying, that Svododa is a neofascists party. And you're right with all of these pics.
But you're wrong with the term 'Neo-Nazis and far-right protesters'. People, who are now fighting and giving their health or even lives away on the streets of Kyiv are simple people, not enganged in neither 'far-left', nor 'far-right' movements.
The RIght sector (fasсists organisation) started the uprising on 19th of January, thus it does not mean that only they are now continuing it. People from all over Ukraine (mainly west part of it) are supporting this uprising, only because they are fed up with all of dictators rules and laws and because the president's family live in prosperities, while simple Ukrainian is labouring day and night.
The uprising is spontaneous, that is people's fit of anger.

Svoboda and other opposition leaders are losing their authorities among people, but the other thing is that people do not know what to do and how to live without the statutory authority. So they will, probably, vote for one of opposition's leader, not for Oleh Tyahnybok, but for Vitalii Klytschko or the third one.

That'll happen if the opposition wins. What will happen when Yanykovych wins, I am afraid even to think. Ukraine will become the second Belarus or even worse. Both 'far-right' an 'far-left' activist will be sentenced or killed.

FatherXmas
Jan 23 2014 17:18

Thank you for sharing this information. I believe it is very important to reveal the extent that neo-fascists have infiltrated Maidan. It is certainly true that groups like Svoboda are not the only faction present and are only one aspect of what is occurring. However, what disturbs me the most is how the more moderate protestors have so passively accepted the nazi presence and how the "official" leaders like Klitschko have embraced Svoboda as a legitimate ally. I agree with Khrystyna that the uprising is representative of the people's frustration with the corrupt government but allying with, or passively accepting the presence of fascists is, imho, irresponsibly playing with fire. A fallout of this situation, already being seen, is the radicalization of youth towards the far-right.

teh
Jan 23 2014 22:05
FatherXmas wrote:
However, what disturbs me the most is how the more moderate protestors have so passively accepted the nazi presence and how the "official" leaders like Klitschko have embraced Svoboda as a legitimate ally.

The Fatherland and Punch parties are associates/allies of the German Christian Democrats (Klitschko is a resident of Germany). Why shouldn't they form opportunist alliances with fascists? Germany did it in Ukraine during the last two world wars and those historic links remain (Bandera- whose UIA militiias red and black flag is very prominent in the protests- was assassinated by the KGB while he was living in exile in West Germany after all).

teh
Jan 23 2014 22:20
Khrystyna wrote:
People from all over Ukraine (mainly west part of it) are supporting this uprising, only because they are fed up with all of dictators rules and laws and because the president's family live in prosperities, while simple Ukrainian is labouring day and night.
The uprising is spontaneous, that is people's fit of anger.
Svoboda and other opposition leaders are losing their authorities among people, but the other thing is that people do not know what to do and how to live without the statutory authority. So they will, probably, vote for one of opposition's leader, not for Oleh Tyahnybok, but for Vitalii Klytschko or the third one.
That'll happen if the opposition wins.

The protest is about joining the EU and the governments decision to step away temporarily from a trade agreement that would pave the way towards it. There is nothing even remotely communist or leftist about the EU. You know full well that gas subsidies for personal consumption will be cut as a part of any EU deal as the latter is not going to pay for the costs for transitioning from a Russia dependent economy to a Germany/France dependent economy. How do gas subsidy cuts square with rhetoric about 'the president's family live in prosperities, while simple Ukrainian is labouring day and night'? The conservative parties aren't funded by trade union bureaucrats, they're funded by the wealthiest families in the country and their leaders are from that ilk. The protesters protest and vote for them because they themselves hold conservative beliefs and these parties appeal to their belief system.

confusionboats
Jan 23 2014 22:33

The focus of the protest seems to have shifted to being moreso about the anti-protest laws and government corruption. Perhaps the allegations of corruption are a part of some kind of reactionary conspiracies ,(?) but, the 'revolution' seems to be a 'legitimate' bourgeois democratic one. I don't know, however, I am not in the Ukraine. Are there any ukranian articles about this?

teh
Jan 23 2014 23:38
confusionboats wrote:
The focus of the protest seems to have shifted to being moreso about the anti-protest laws and government corruption.

The anti-protest laws are only a few days old. Before it was: student protesters being dispersed by police on Dec 17(date correct?). Government corruption is a meaningless platitude. These rhetorical messages are geared for opposition supporters for mobilization. The practical purpose is to force through early parliamentary and presidential elections and then use the occupations of public squares, the party mobilizations, and hopefully an influx of campaign cash to win a majority of seats in parliament. Then they can sign the EU association agreement and release Timochenko/jail Yanukovych. That's why the conservatives are allied with the Freedom Party, they wouldn't have enough seats for a majority in parliament otherwise.

Quote:
but, the 'revolution' seems to be a 'legitimate' bourgeois democratic one.

That's why it needs to be opposed. The bourgeois are the enemy.

Quote:
I don't know, however, I am not in the Ukraine. Are there any ukranian articles about this?

I read this interview with a Ukrainian middle class anarchist.
http://tahriricn.wordpress.com/2014/01/07/ukraine-ukrainian-anarchist-dispels-myths-surrounding-euromaidan-protests-warns-of-fascist-influence/

He says that leftist opportunists that he knows who showed up at the protest got beat up but I've seen reports elsewhere of groups who showed up and that didn't happen.

confusionboats
Jan 24 2014 01:26
Quote:

I read this interview with a Ukrainian middle class anarchist.
http://tahriricn.wordpress.com/2014/01/07/ukraine-ukrainian-anarchist-dispels-myths-surrounding-euromaidan-protests-warns-of-fascist-influence/

He says that leftist opportunists that he knows who showed up at the protest got beat up but I've seen reports elsewhere of groups who showed up and that didn't happen.

same union here
http://avtonomia.net/2014/01/23/awu-statement-current-political-situation/
looks like their sentiment changed fairly rapidly

Foristaruso
Jan 24 2014 13:14

A text writen from one anarchist from Ukraine:
http://www.aitrus.info/node/3532

V.Z.
Jan 24 2014 16:10
confusionboats
Jan 24 2014 22:30

I read another article that explained somehow that the Communist Party in the Ukraine was really more like a socially conservative party and even in terms of economics had shifted to maybe a weak form of social democracy. People are drumming up all of these east vs west rivalries but the soviet union is no longer communist and from what I understand a lot of the protesters don't real know or care as to what the original protests were about. they are in a way victims a lot of bad information. the ruling party allegedly was going to side with EU and switched last minute because they just realized that the Ukraine didn't have enough money. The west seemed to believe that the pro-EU faction would be more socially liberal but this just does not seem to be true. both sides are definitely reactionary and neither are in the interest of the ukranian people. I think that we on the left should continue to shill for that anarchist union because well who else is there?

meerov21
Jan 25 2014 00:27

I get it as privet letter from one person and want to publish that here:

Father Christmas wrote: “ I agree with Khrystyna that the uprising is representative of the people’s frustration with the corrupt government but allying with, or passively accepting the presence of fascists is, imho, irresponsibly playing with fire.” Unfortunately, in strikes, riots, occupations and any other form of struggle, those who want to see the abolition of the state and the commodity form are few. As meerov21 says on another thread about the Ukraine: “Masses of people are advocating for democracy, try during the revolt of those or other forms, organize themselves. It is a creative experiment, in which the workers are trying to change reality, form the instruments of direct democracy. Their actions are imperfect and many workers are infected with xenophobia and inter-classism. But other workers class does not exist in Eastern Europe. And I don’t understand, how can people learn social revolution, not revolting against the regime? So if you want to change something, have to work with these” I am 99% sure that on demonstrations or other situations, people considering themselves anti-statists find themselves alongside Leninists, for example. And the social effect of Leninism has been as devastatating as fascism. I suspect that, even if fascists were involved in the destruction of the statue of Lenin, it was a popular move because it expressed a hatred of any alliance with the ex-KGB scumbag Putin and a hatred of the past connection with state capitalism. Of course, this is not to say those who want a genuinely anti-hierarchical revolution should remain silent about the fascists, but one has to recognise that fascism, like Bolshevism and Keynesian Welfare-stateism, were methods by which revolutionary perspectives were coopted into different forms of capitalism (Hitler often referred positively to “revolution”). And even “anarchism” has been coopted in Ukraine, in the form of money with Makhno’s picture on it. Given the utter confusion which capitalism conditions people with, it is no surpirse that people react to various dominant dogmas to form or ally themselves with other dogmas in their reaction. Many of those who call themselves anarchists are usually no better. It should be obvious that the vast majority of people, myself and yourself included, are not always aware of our own interests. The task of a revolution is the process of becoming aware.

***

Low ranking fascists can – and do – change. I met someone who, in the 1970s, had given a student member of the National Front a copy of the situationist text “The Poverty of Student Life”. He liked the text, split from his party and managed to sabotage the local bureaucracy of the National Front so it was unable to function for a year. But some Trots ignored this action of his, which was clearly far more anti-fascist than anything they had done. Instead, they attacked him and broke all of his fingers, a particularly nasty thing to do considering the guy played the piano, on occasions professionally (which they knew). I have also heard of young members of the National Front leaving the party in 1981 and joining with blacks to attack the cops during the riots there.

****

The article that Foristaruso put a link to is crap. It has nothing useful to say about the reactionary and radical aspects of this movement. It merely promotes an anarcho-syndicalist dogma from on high to replace the existing dogmas. Marx said over 170 years ago: “We must try to help the dogmatics to clarify to themselves the meaning of their own positions…Then we shall confront the world not as doctrinaires with a new principle: “Here is the truth, bow down before it!”.…We do not say to the world “Stop fighting! Your struggle is of no account We want to shout the true slogan of the struggle at you.” We only show the world what it is fighting for, and consciousness is something that the world must acquire, like it or not” And that is something that must be applied to Ukraine, and anywhere else, regardless of which stupid capitalist illusion is held by those participating in the social explosions."

meerov21
Jan 25 2014 00:58


Quote:
Khrystyna: "That is not really the whole the truth".

Christina is right. The text published here does not reflects the situation. This is typical left-bourgeois discourse, devoid of class analysis.

Quote:
teh: "The protest is about joining the EU"

Not now or at list it is not the main point todey:
http://www.libcom.org/forums/news/ukrainian-uprising-24012014

teh
Jan 25 2014 02:53
Quote:
Quote:
teh: "The protest is about joining the EU"

Not now or at list it is not the main point todey:
http://www.libcom.org/forums/news/ukrainian-uprising-24012014

Its the only point. I mean really, that's what all sides internally and externally are fighting about. All the police actions and occupations are means to achieve the opposing respective goals. That article is demagogic. The 'common good [] For a free Ukraine' are slogans that are designed not to hold substance but to be all things to all people like a commercial. Communists don't fight for a free Ukraine, they fight to wipe all nation states off the map. 'Inter class' movements mentioned in the link is Stalinist Popular Front policy, which was designed not for revolution but to serve the market needs of Soviet state capitalism. It says "Maidan is an inter-class forum. It is the same as the Egyptian Tahrir." But Egyptian uprising is being smashed precisely because workers were unable to break into an independent position. Would you really want to be on a barricade where an "old woman pours Molotov cocktail for a" fascist [nationalist is p.c. term for fascist in east europe. its not like the other parties are not "nationalist" in the literal sense], "and the manager of a large company brings ammunition to a student"??

The "white ribbon" movement in Russia mentioned is another liberal/fascist alliance that want to bring democracy and then kill the poor with legislation.

The 'self-organization' and 'direct democracy' described in that article are the same as that of a bake sale (actual example old crimethinc gave) not related to workers power. Obama's secretary John Kerry, who is backing both the Egypt junta and the EU protests, called Egypt's ongoing military crackdown part of its ongoing "participatory democracy," so even the emperor is anti-hierarchy now. Time does not have to "pass before the working class realize that parliamentary system and even the direct inter-classist democracy do not solve its problems." They're realizing it already. In the last 'free' elections that Egypt had two thirds boycotted the vote, as opposed to only forty percent in the first one. Its the leftists there who say one has to support democracy. The same elsewhere. If a practical alternative was viable nobody would support democracy.

And I don't understand this notion that Ukraine needs to fight for "democracy" or have a "bourgeois-democratic revolution." Ukraine already has a democracy. It even had a peoples democracy for 70 plus years. This is the real deal. That's it. There is nothing better that will come from Ukraine's parliament.

templeofninpo
Jan 25 2014 04:32

When people objectively understand why pride is fundamentally insane all their panic and rage just turns to glorious sadness.

Patience be with us in discovering that truth is more important than survival.

Its not a 'choosing' process, it is the divining process and there is no one to blame for the experiences that make angels psychotic or heroic.

Love truth. You are not 'children' of God, you are fingers of It.

confusionboats
Jan 25 2014 04:58

I always like the white ribbon as an antiwar thing
shame
anyways the Chesno people claim to be fighting 'corruption', so how 'democratic' their 'democracy' actually is up for debate. Ukraine IS allegedly corrupt, but terms like 'corruption' in the context of the far-right usually mean things like 'jews' so
its kind of hard to get behind that as a political program

Since it has become increasingly apparent that there is little to no actual left in the Ukraine we should hope that the conditions change in such a manner so that leftism is possible or whatever
What this means is not having laws on the books that make 'the distribution of extremist materials' punishable by 3 years etc.

The revolution is good in a sense because it wipes the slate clean
however this also opens the doors for svoboda to seize power
the other coalition centre-right forces don't seem be all that great either
but if in power and given the history of the popular uprising conditions may emerge which allow for the development of some form of class consciousness
perhaps its forming there now on the streets?
there has been little information from actual protestors so its hard to get a feel for what the general sentiment there is
I don't see any benefit to the proletariat or the unemployed or the general working class left etc in siding with the EU, the Trotskyist organization put out program that would 'nationalize primary industries'. Maybe this serves as an alternative?

It would still offer the anarchists a chance to perform their 'revolutionary gymnastics'

Tyrion
Jan 25 2014 05:20
teh wrote:
And I don't understand this notion that Ukraine needs to fight for "democracy" or have a "bourgeois-democratic revolution." Ukraine already has a democracy. It even had a peoples democracy for 70 plus years. This is the real deal. That's it. There is nothing better that will come from Ukraine's parliament.

I very much agree with this, and I think the term is being badly misused here; it's not as if there's some feudal society in Ukraine that needs to be wiped away for the bourgeoisie to introduce the capitalist practices that will create a proletariat and sew the seeds of communism.

confusionboats
Jan 25 2014 07:44

http://maidantranslations.wordpress.com/
seems Vitaly Klitschko is now the leader of the opposition
this page makes no mention of Svoboda
their flag isn't even present in the pictures
they even state that they aren't fascists in the video I watched
its whatever
I don't think we have worry about a fascist uprising however

meerov21
Jan 25 2014 12:42

teh: "The protest is about joining the EU..." Its the only point. I mean really, that's what all sides internally and externally are fighting about. All the police actions and occupations are means to achieve the opposing respective goals. That article is demagogic. The 'common good [] For a free Ukraine' are slogans that are designed not to hold substance but to be all things to all people like a commercial. Communists don't fight for a free Ukraine, they fight to wipe all nation states off the map. 'Inter class' movements mentioned in the link is Stalinist Popular Front policy, which was designed not for revolution but to serve the market needs of Soviet state capitalism. It says "Maidan is an inter-class forum. It is the same as the Egyptian Tahrir." But Egyptian uprising is being smashed precisely because workers were unable to break into an independent position.

1. There is the main problem: That workers millions of whoom can fight for independent position exist only in your imagination todey. Real working class is able today to fight only for democracy and some social achievements on the Maidan and Tahrir. This happens not because I want to. It's just a fact. Another of the working class does not exist.

2. But in Egypt there were changes. Thanks to the efforts and experience acquired during the uprising against Mubarak, working class widely practiced wild-cat-strikes.

4 There is no democracy in Ukraine and it is nowhere in the world, if we are talking about real power of workers in the society. Power belongs to the large corporations and bureaucracy. Parlamentarism is a fake. The working class understands this, but he does not know the mechanisms and practices for the changing reality. So many take part in the revolts or protests against the democratically elected governments (uprising against Yanukovych in Ukrain, the revolt against the Mursi in Egypt, Occupy movement in USA ets) and struggling for some vague "real democracy".

5. I never admire the slogans of the Maidan and i didn not approve them. Can you distinguish between analysis from propaganda? I see this as a protest large part of the working class. The protest, which is expressed in a certain (inter-classist) forms. The question is what to do with it if we want workers class fight for not-capitalist and not-statist society. This is the only real question today. (As i wrote: "Much time will pass before the working class realize that parliamentary system and even the direct inter-classist democracy do not solve its problems. May be the Maidan experience will allow Ukrainian workers to make class maidans at the factories in future". Isn't that clear that i think we have to work in this direction?)
And of course, I can discuss with you and with five other people, how will look like a real Communist revolution in 150 years...

meerov21
Jan 25 2014 12:39

"I very much agree with this, and I think the term is being badly misused here; it's not as if there's some feudal society in Ukraine that needs to be wiped away for the bourgeoisie "

Society in the age of absolutism were not feudal or purely feudal. This is a common mistake. Some modern scholars call them "illegitimate feodalism" or "bustard feodalism"(Kaninghem, Charitinovich). There were large and small business and transatlantic trade.
At the same time members of the Royal family owned huge property and relied on the police and army dictatorship. The most flourishing oligarchs were friends of Royal family. Public
posts have been sold and bought.
This is very similar to modern Eastern Europe and Egypt. I'm not saying that it is the same thing but there are similarities. One of the main causes of the conflict Yanukovych with some of the oligarchs that he began just to take violently their (or their friends) publick posts for wich they paid big money. On the other hand corruption of such a scale displeased the workers class and middle and smalle business.

baboon
Jan 25 2014 16:45

Though I'm dubious about his existence (where's that train-set I asked for in 1970?), I tend to agree with some of the concerns of Father Xmas regarding the situation in Ukraine. I definitely disagree with some of the expressions of meerov21 in placing the working class within events here, seeing this as "a form of struggle" in which the working class "is trying to change reality". Events in Ukraine, to some extent, is another "Syrian Revolution", in that any organised expression of the working class is completely absent and the whole terrain is completely dominated by the bourgeoisie and its interests. This is not a revolution, it's not class struggle, it's essentially a fight between different imperialist interests in which the working class has nothing to gain and everything to lose.

I believe that the essence of events here is a fightback by Russia against a US squeeze on its borders in which the latter is assisted by countries affiliated to Nato, particularly Germany and Poland.

The working class in Ukraine has, historically, been a major force in the struggle of the proletariat but, following the implosion of the Soviet Union in 1989, was, like the working class everywhere, weakened by the "collapse of communism" and its class identity and class consciousness took a severe hit. Despite a strike of more than 750,000 miners across Russia in Spring 1991 and a general strike in Byleorussia at the same time, these strikes were defeated by both the material and ideological attacks unleashed on them from both the east and the west. Workers in the ex-eastern bloc became fragmented by the various nationalisms, disorientated by unemployment, inflation and other economic attacks while, at the same time, being suckered by western-fueled illusions in "freedom", "democracy" and the "victory of capitalism". I seem to remember this being reflected at the time in Ukraine in miners on strike in one region against miners on strike in another, ie, worker fighting worker and a total victory for the bourgeoisie.

If the pro-US faction took a hold here from the "Rose Revolution" (another "revolution" that's anything but), then a resurgent Russia has made a counter-offensive for this vital geo-strategic region. Ukraine is an nuclear power and the Black Sea is extremely important for Russian naval power. President Yanukovych represents Russian imperialist interests against those of the "opening up to the west factions" with his rejection of an "association" with the EU. The economic consequences of this EU"association" are virtually meaningless but it opens up the potential of Ukraine into Nato - something that is unthinkable for Russia and it will fight tooth and nail for it.

Khrstyna above is correct I think: people are sick of all the politicians: the "democratic" mafia of Timoshenko and her gang (who, when they were in power, raised the retirement age, put up pric es of staples and increased local taxes) and the National Socialist Party descended from the Organisation of Ukrainian Nationalists, whose army, as said above, collaborated with the Nazis and massacred Jews in Galicia (west Ukraine). A boxer completely out of his depth among this lot and the ex-Stalinists representing the interests of Russia.

The working class is either completely absent or mobilised behind bourgeois gangs. Against meerov21, it will be fatal for it to get drawn onto this rotten terrain.

meerov21
Jan 26 2014 15:31

baboon: The working class is either completely absent or mobilised behind bourgeois gangs. [i]The working class is either completely absent or mobilised behind bourgeois gangs. Against meerov21, it will be fatal for it to get drawn onto this rotten terrain.

On the Maidan comes up to a million people. The absolute majority there are workers, the unemployed, temporarily, teachers, doctors etc. All the people present at Maidan note expression of social anger.
Tell me one thing. Why do all these people come in there? Why many of them are ready to die? Are you going to explain mass social protests by the theory of conspiracy of the elites?

teh
Jan 26 2014 01:30
meerov21 wrote:
1. There is the main problem: That workers millions of whoom can fight for independent position exist only in your imagination todey. Real working class is able today to fight only for democracy and some social achievements on the Maidan and Tahrir. This happens not because I want to. It's just a fact. Another of the working class does not exist.

It was the upper classes that fought for "democracy and some social achievements" in Tahir. Workers fought in the negative: against the government, against police, against certain manifestations of liberal economics. What came next was completely dominated by ruling class parties and organs. If you don't want this to happen, as you say, then don't advocate this. Prol revolution isn't the second coming of Christ. It happens because people fight for it not against it. And the people in Maidan aren't fighting for either democracy or social achievements. They lost the past two elections and if they get into power now the policies that they would be required to implement to enact their program would attack social achievements causing the other faction of the elite to come into power again. And that in turn would lead them to once again agitate for a coup. Their attacks on social achievements is the only reason why Yanukovych was elected president in the first place.

Quote:
2. But in Egypt there were changes. Thanks to the efforts and experience acquired during the uprising against Mubarak, working class widely practiced wild-cat-strikes.

In Egypt it wasn't the opposition Wafd party leading the protests. It was a mass mobilization that wasn't allied with the political organs of the elite (sans the independent trade unions, but they themselves were marginal to ruling circles, compared to now at least) and destabilized the organs of the state. The main elite benefactor, the Muslim Brothers, played little to no role in the uprising. Fatherland, Punch, and Freedom, on the other hand, are the organizers of the protests and have no desire for destabilization beyond them getting to power.

4

Quote:
There is no democracy in Ukraine and it is nowhere in the world, if we are talking about real power of workers in the society.

You used democracy to refer to bourgeois rule through parliament and to what the protesters want. ("Real working class is able today to fight only for democracy").

Quote:
5. I never admire the slogans of the Maidan and i didn not approve them. Can you distinguish between analysis from propaganda? I see this as a protest large part of the working class. The protest, which is expressed in a certain (inter-classist) forms. The question is what to do with it if we want workers class fight for not-capitalist and not-statist society. This is the only real question today. (As i wrote: "Much time will pass before the working class realize that parliamentary system and even the direct inter-classist democracy do not solve its problems. May be the Maidan experience will allow Ukrainian workers to make class maidans at the factories in future". Isn't that clear that i think we have to work in this direction?)
And of course, I can discuss with you and with five other people, how will look like a real Communist revolution in 150 years...

As I wrote the Egyptians masses became disillusioned with democracy in less then a year. It was the leftists and democrats who continued to agitate for democracy- which they decided to achieve through a military coup!- and now continue to agitate for either a US-Saudi backed democracy or a US-Saudi-Qatari backed democracy (whatever will bring peace). The answer to this is not to support them or their counterparts in Kiev.

Quote:
I see this as a protest large part of the working class.

The working class is the large part of society. Any protest is going to be working class. The difference is are workers acting as workers or as citizens patronized by a faction of the elite.

teh
Jan 26 2014 01:41
meerov21 wrote:
At the same time members of the Royal family owned huge property and relied on the police and army dictatorship. The most flourishing oligarchs were friends of Royal family. Public
posts have been sold and bought.
This is very similar to modern Eastern Europe and Egypt. I'm not saying that it is the same thing but there are similarities.

No it very similar to Western Europe. Countries like the UK, Sweden, and Spain. Eastern Europe and Egypt abolished their monarchies decades ago (1917 and 1952 respectively).

Quote:
One of the main causes of the conflict Yanukovych with some of the oligarchs that he began just to take violently their (or their friends) publick posts for wich they paid big money. On the other hand corruption of such a scale displeased the workers class and middle and smalle business.

So you want to support these particular oligarchs because Yanukovych was violent towards them? And middle and small business too. Workers who don't back the conservatives are only more likely back Yanukovych because of this, despite him loosing support --in part because of corruption- after being elected. And you forget that if the conservatives win they're going to release Timoshenko. So corruption -even corruption with Russia!- is good if ones faction does it.

Kureigo-San
Jan 26 2014 14:23

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stK3YPz6WTc

Feel like I'm lowering the tone by posting a video with so much good convo going on, but this appears to show fascists seizing a government building. Maybe there are non-fascists in amongst the crowd waving fascist flags at the end of the video, but I think that would actually worry me more.

libcom
Jan 27 2014 17:31

admin note: we removed a comment from a fascist troll. We also removed the comment from Henri Headache breaching our rule on not disclosing confidential personal information on libcom. Disclosing confidential personal information about comrades is completely prohibited here. Do not do it again.

baboon
Jan 27 2014 18:10

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/01/27/ukra-j27.html

With all due wariness about a publication supporting the "Fourth International" and, playing down the Russian offensive in Ukraine, the above article from the WSWS is not bad in giving the run-down on the pro-western forces with the US at their head, that are actively at work here.

meerov21
Jan 27 2014 22:34
Quote:
teh It was the upper classes that fought for "democracy and some social achievements" in Tahir. Workers fought in the negative: against the government, against police, against certain manifestations of liberal economics.

Not at all. There is just fantasy again.
Egyptian revolution 2011 included several groups - workers, temporarily employed, unemployed, doctors, teachers, engineers. All this is not the upper class and this is working clas. Many were in Tahrir square. Others supported requirements of Tahrir by strikes. Moreover, workers of factories have advanced economic requirements during strikes.
On the other hand in the movement took part some of the petty and middle bourgeoisie.
You know nothing about these events. I can only recommend to chat with Egyptian anarchists.

P.S.

Far left on Maidan
graffiti: Peace to the huts, war to the palaces
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bex8prgCAAAPwwz.jpg

meerov21
Jan 27 2014 22:38
Quote:
Quote:

One of the main causes of the conflict Yanukovych with some of the oligarchs that he began just to take violently their (or their friends) publick posts for wich they paid big money. On the other hand corruption of such a scale displeased the workers class and middle and smalle business.

teh: So you want to support these particular oligarchs because Yanukovych was violent towards them?

Where have you found this in my comments? Are you talking with yourself?
I said just the opposite.

Konstant1n
Jan 30 2014 09:38

you stupid maidan bastard aren't you afraid that Ukraine becomes Libya or Syria?

vanucci
Feb 20 2014 17:00

Thanks for the comment.
It's hard to get an idea of what is going from another country.

Hopefully the radicals succeed power when the fighting stops should they/you "win".
I am very cautious, however, due to the involvement of the US and Europe.

The amount of regime change activity that has taken place with US/EU support in the last few years, and the terrible consequences of direct efforts to destabalize should be noted.

Iraq, Libya, Syria, Egypt, Venezuela, Sudan (to name a few)

The lawlessness that has resulted in surrounding countries must also be considered:

Lebanon, Mali, Tunisia etc...

This is a proxy war of the superpowers. Putin will not give up his stranglehold on Europe (with gas pipelines through Ukraine) and the EU will not be held ransom by Russia. Further, the US has a huge strategic benefit from any destruction it can do in an area so close and important to Russia.

I don't know what will happen but it will be a mess.
Good luck, from Australia

Take care not to let this legitimate and righteous struggle be hi-jacked by higher powers, be they EU, US, neo-Nazi or Ruski