Not making anarchism even less popular...

yes, something which repeatedly needs to be said!

yes pagans and other fucking sub cultural parasites can go pray to their goddess or whatever trendy new age deity they are worshipping. I actually think that atheism is a major part of anarchism and class struggle, the punk sub culture and other lifestylist stuff can all go shove it self but i wouldn't drop the atheism.

i do however know one anarcho christian who is as sound as a pound and whose politics are very good, well whilst rooted in the material realm. but yeah i don't see how anarchism can reconcile itself with relegion, thats not to say that people with vaguely spiritual beliefs can't be revolutionaries just that they aren't anarchists.

p.s i dont believe in a purely anarchist revolution, i believe in working class liberation via our own self activity which doesnt need everyone to call themselves an anarchist.

Well I wouldn't ban ugly people but I don't think they should be in photographs and I'd make them sit at the back during public meetings.

The article is good. It something we've been trying in my Local for a while. Meeting people half way on a social/cultural level without diluting the politcs.

When I meet people who are interested a lot of the time they ask questions like 'do you have to be a vegan/ vegetarian' etc. All I say is that as long as you believe in the principles of direct action, non-hierarchical organisation, and don't have a job where you can hire & fire or discipline people then you can join.

As for the pagan thing. We've got two members who are pagans. It's not an issue. Sure there are some 'new age' types but the pagans I know are down to earth and their politics are spot on.

This is true. Belief in a god of some description is one thing. To belong to an organised religion with priests, imams or whatever would be hard to reconcile with anarchism.

The pagans I know don't have priests or priestesses. They don’t believe in gods/goddesses in the sense that some people think of it. It’s more a nature thing with “the goddess” being within the person. (This is my understanding of it anyway). One problem with paganism is, like anarchism, anyone can call themselves one and put others right off.

While I dont mock people who eat tuna, I feel that generally being an anarchist and tolerating animal abuse is about as compatible as accepting racism or any form of chauvinism or prejudice. Frankly its odd and uncalled for.

But just like I dont beat people up for expressing 'grey areas' around people from different ethnic backgrounds I dont attack people who eat meat etc. Always you should strive to be the change you want to see, which should be based on fraternity, understanding and compassion, but why on earth some people think that should exclude animals heaven only knows...Animal abuse is one fragment of how capitalism markets and destoys sentient lives purely for profit, they are and remain the most oppressed group on earth, if overthrowing capitalism doesnt change that equation, then quite frankly what the fuck is the point!?

So without being accussed of lifestyler etc, its important we build change in the here and now, by doing at least something around veg outreach or challenging animal abuse. And I cant see no ghetto, or anymore than the rest of the movement ( ) because Im not so sectarian as to put animal issues above those of the general movement, Im still in good contact with people I was working with previously and the fact they eat meat is a none issue when discussing current political stuff. In fact some of my best friends eat meat

I would be grateful for examples of whom GB's is refering to but as far as Im concerned there arent that many anarchists who do animal rights stuff, otherwise frankly the animal rights movement wouldnt be so full of liberal campaigners who constantly want to petition over the most miniscule points, in complete isolation of the ravages of 'the system'.

In fact I was hoping to write something for the proposed AYN zine on why anarchists should 'do' animal rights activity, but thats probably a different issue, as always I think AR activity is troubled by the prism of the or so false, 'red vs. green' divide which is kept artificially alive by so many knobheads and that capitialism can and is co-opting alot of animal rights through careers and consumer goods.....a sad but true legacy of rebellion being sold to the punters.

The basic reason that overt anarchism is not more popular is that there are too few overt anarchists, and not enough action/propaganda gets done. To say 'things would be better if it wasn't for xxxx anarchists' is not helpful. This argument may be of interest to some anarchists, bit how does it look to everyone else? I want Freedom to be something I'm happy to give to people I hardly know -- and i think oe reason its got better is that its far less full of the old intra-scene debates that used to clutter it up. Those people are all dead now, let's not fill up Freedom with a new generation of intra-scene debate, because we spend enough time on this already.

Actually, I might send this as a letter to Freedom, except that I would then be contributing to an intra-scene debate in Freedom

I think we need to lost the old 'xxx are holding us back' victim mentality; the main thing that holds us back is our lack of ability to win voctories. Sure there are concrete problems with lots of anarchist groups and publications -- but let's concretely criticise them, rather than letting off blunderbuss communiques.

Nice post Laz..... summed up very nicely what i think a lot of the time

Think it would be a worth while thing to write about... maybe i'll do it someday! ha!

I havent been involved with anarchism all that long, and Id be the first to admit that I want my output to increase but my activism goes back a number of years to being involved with trot sect politics, so on that level I think the most important thing is to find 'allies', much like Lazlo seemed to be saying, 'dont say xxx are runing the movement, go build an alternative'. I sometimes think that short of asking us to join a particularly federation (another thread in itself!), you are acting like guardians for the movement, albiet not in a truly regressive way.

GB wrote

But I don't think you can deny that capitalism and the State are human entities. Animal rights is a different issue. Like with my religious example you can argue about how they're linked but they are not the same thing.

I dont think AR is central, but it as repercussions which cant simply be dismissed, how we organise food production and distribution is central to our society. Also animals were the first foundation in developing class society. Likewise you say that racism is different, but the idea of a libertarian anarchist society which en mass exploits animals (and the environment) is quite frankly absurd. Thats not to say people wont eat meat at all (that in itself is probably an unachieveable utopia), but the feature of factory farming and slaughterhouses, arent part of the fabric of a free society. And part and parcel of anarchism is that we build our world in the here and now, through viable AR work.

And the examples you give GB are sad, but any good intentioned set of ideas can be turned into dogma if in wrong use. In fact I recently met with the sabbytabby from MWR and didnt spurn him for the Mcdonalds shit, infact part of anarchism would dictate that its his choice to work in an industry involved in meat production, however I couldnt, but would support MWR, since it would further both human and non-human liberation, via the creation of a sustainable free society.

And there arent and shouldnt be conditions for entering anarchism, but In my relatively short experience of the movement, it needs to be more organised with its current forces, rather than hoping new blood will come in and help 'do more of the same.'

Steve, anarchists will always be represented as weirdos in the media. Do you think we can become so respectable that this can't be done? We can't clean up our media image by trying to clean up the scene.

Then there's the effect we have on people who perceive anarchism directly from anarchists, rather than from the media. Too often people are put off by anarchists attituted and cliquiness, but this kind of problem is not limited to green/animal lib anarchists. Many class struggle anarchists are off putting in the way the act, and many groups feel exclusive. If we're going to have a look at the problem, we've got to remember that it's not an ideological one, it is something that all sections of anarchism do to a greater or lesser extent.

So how do we overcome these problems? Fucked if I know; in many ways I think they're endemic to small fringe groups. Often the mad people who put people off are also the workhorses who get crucial stuff done; we're a prisoner of our state of activism.

Hell yes I'll write a Freedom editorial, something about sex, maybe, that'll get the punters listening.

Maybe sex with animals -- Or would that not go down well in the media?

I think thats a bit naive John. There are workers in catholic trade unions in some parts of the world.

Not sure I followed a lot of the remarks on religion in the article though. If anarchism is about human equality, and religion is a human construct (which as an atheist you must believe John), and religious beliefs effect how people relate to others, then religion is a concern for anarchists. It can't be separated off and treated as some kind of philosophical abstration. Class struggle analysis still applies to it.

The reigion stiff aside, I agree with the general sentiment of the article. I think that revolutionary politics should be for everyone and so should not become tied to a particular subcultue. Though we shouldn't make the mistake of rejecting any behaviour that doesn't fit into what we think people see as ordinary. For a start, I don't think that there are that many "ordinary" people out there. In my experience people are in to all sorts of weird and wonderful stuff that the moral "majority" would no doubt find odd.

So we just need to be ourselves

Don't patronise me with your tokenism.

I still think we're talking about a pot/kettle situation here.

Well so you seem to be saying that we need to change how we relate to each other, because we're unneccessarily off-putting. I agree with that, but don't think that this is a question just for the vegan atheist squatters that the Editorial namechecks. Meat eating, Christian mortgageholding groups also have a problem realting to people -- and like I said, I think that's about how cliques build up and how people police those cliques.

Steve -- if you think your group has none of those problems then I'd like to hear more about how you avoid them. Do you think no-one ever feels put off by your group?

Was that when you recruited yourself to the local?

Steve -- why don't you write the next Freedom editorial in that calm, reasonable tone? Good down to earth stuff with no flailing or flouncing. Even better, why not a regular series of "Fireside Chats2 in which you explain to the anarchist listeners that, yes it is a long and hard struglge, but we're all in it togehter, and we carry a new world in our hearts.

Come on! I've cracked it!

It would have to be internet radio, of course, or maybe Under the Pavement on ALL FM.

I'm serious about you writing the next Freedom ed, BTW 8)