Noah Fence and factvalue

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Ed's picture
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Oct 4 2016 21:24

Just letting people know that Noah's account has now been reactivated.

Sike
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Oct 4 2016 21:38
S. Artesian wrote:
Don't you think you're letting him off too easy, with just a permanent banning? Maybe you can have him arrested or something; or hack his bank account, if he has one.

Oh Artesian, come on, the admins can't even seem to straighten out Libcom's perilously weak security configuration so how are they possibly going to hack factvalues bank account?

wink

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Oct 4 2016 21:43
Serge Forward wrote:
Mind you, I'm told he's a nice enough chap in person. Internet eh.
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Oct 5 2016 17:26

Well here I am and deeply sensible of the honour of being reactivated. I'm very grateful.
Now I've shaken off that other troublesome fellow I can perhaps get back to being a good boy again? Oops sorry, sarcastic wanksock alert!

Predictable as it all was this has certainly been one of the highlights of my Libcom experience. The most amusing aspect being the fact that on a number of times I've purposely tried to get banned and failed miserably yet on this occasion I really was just thoughtless and careless and walked straight into it quite innocently. This inevitably leads me to the conclusion that I'm not half so smart as I sometimes like to think I am! I had a good old chortle over that on Saturday.
What's somewhat disappointing is that I've had a number of emails and PMs from some surprising and some not so surprising sources saying that they feel that our ban was unjustified including a few suggesting that Libcom has a pretty reactionary attitude towards ideas and language that falls outside the accepted norms. That's not disappointing to me in itself, it's nice to know that others can spot the blatantly obvious too, no, what disappoints me is that the comments are made in private not public. I'd suggest that sticking your neck out is good for the soul and good for debate. Being a cowardy custard just perpetuates the tired ideas that often rule the roost around here.
Anyways, the main objective has been achieved much to the delight of the usual suspects(you know, the ones that aren't interested but always make an appearance when the opportunity to bash the arch enemy arises. Hmmm.). Plus the anti Semite stick has had an airing which is great because it's always a good idea to keep handy tools in good working order.
All in all, a most satisfying episode. Well done Libcom, you're aces, you know that?

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Oct 5 2016 22:27

Now, help me out here, banning Noah, was that a micro or a macro aggression?

wink

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Oct 6 2016 00:30
Pennoid wrote:
Now, help me out here, banning Noah, was that a micro or a macro aggression?

;)

Feels like a nano aggression to me - more like a tickle than a punch. However, it's reminded me that I want to ask a question myself;

Is forming a barrier around a cop collaborating piece of shit like body guards around an A-list celebrity a micro or macro counter revolutionary, anti anarchist activity?

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Oct 6 2016 03:03

So I read the posting guidelines and I found two parts that could be used to justify Factvalue's ban.

1. Insulting and ridiculing others on the forum. (This falls under the cyber-bullying category)

2. Going off-topic on threads. (This falls under the trolling category)

Here's the thing, though. This is behavior that I saw from many people on the forum when I was active, and continue to see now as a part-time lurker.

Insulting and ridiculing others
Although people are nice most of the time, insults and ridicule are common enough on here that it never surprises me to see it. Some of it's been pretty fucking nasty but the only time I saw anyone banned for it was when they were unpopular. Everyone else got a free pass.

Libcom has a reputation for being a forum that you need thick skin to go on. I've heard this from a surprising number of people I know in real life (mostly lurkers). This shows you that insult and ridicule are no rare occurrence.

Factvalue himself was a frequent target of insult and ridicule. Yeah, he dished it out too, but in many cases he was not the first to sling it.

Going off-topic
Is there anyone here (including admin) who hasn't gone off topic on a thread? Many of us have done this several times. Where's our bans? Or at least warnings? There've been threads I started that got derailed and it frustrated the hell out of me. (And most of them had nothing to do with veganism... not that it should matter.)

Factvalue was far from innocent in this. He'd make many long posts in long off-topic debates. I like him, and appreciated many of his contributions to the forum, but I found this behavior frustrating. But it takes two to tango and everyone who engaged in this with him is equally guilty. No consequences for them, though, right? Or for the others I've seen derail threads without Factvalue's help.

When going off-topic is excessive enough to derail it is annoying and disruptive. But when it's just a bit of banter or side chat it's actually quite pleasant and it was one of the things I liked most about libcom. I'm sure plenty others here enjoy it, too. These little off-topic chats gave me a feeling of connection and friendship with others. It was fun. I saw the last bit of off-topic posts that got deleted from the Microaggressions thread, which was the precipitating event for the perma ban of FV and temp ban of Noah and for Auld-bod's warning. It was just a bit of small fun chit chat, nothing that is legitimately derailing.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As for those who say that Factvalue has made anti-Semitic posts, I did not read any of the posts that were mentioned. Clearly, though, the admin do not agree that he's been anti-Semitic or we would have been banned for that long ago. Bigotry is against libcom guidelines and from what I've seen admin are serious about enforcing that.

I do have a lot of appreciation for libcom admin and the work they do for free to maintain this site. And I still think libcom is by far the best site of its kind online. But shit like this is disappointing and I'm sure it turns plenty of people off enough to turn them away. It also makes me feel a bit less hopeful for the possibility of revolution, to see such hypocrisy and unfairness in how we on libcom treat each other. I expect more from us and the revolution sure as hell demands more.

And it's not just the admin, of course, but a large number of the active users of this forum who think that this hypocritical bullshit has all been justified and probably would've liked to see it happen much sooner.

TL;DR: Hypocrisy and double standards.

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Oct 6 2016 03:49

I don't really know the background to all this - I just occasionally lurk now, trying to soak up info/theory/news from a safe distance, while posting in the more relaxed non-political threads - but these comments struck a chord with me:

ultraviolet wrote:
1. Insulting and ridiculing others on the forum. (This falls under the cyber-bullying category)

Insulting and ridiculing others
Although people are nice most of the time, insults and ridicule are common enough on here that it never surprises me to see it. Some of it's been pretty fucking nasty but the only time I saw anyone banned for it was when they were unpopular. Everyone else got a free pass.

Libcom has a reputation for being a forum that you need thick skin to go on. I've heard this from a surprising number of people I know in real life (mostly lurkers). This shows you that insult and ridicule are no rare occurrence.

I've heard this too. And although I understand it technically doesn't relate to the forum rules, I've seen Libcom's twitter account ridiculing other twitter users, dishing out childish insults, most recently in reaction to someone else's liberal politics. Fair enough, disagree with someone's ideas, but it doesn't do the site's image any favours by acting in an aggressive (nano micro macro quantum whatever) manner - it ain't good PR. And it's a tad hypocritical, when you consider the rules of the forum. If this behaviour somehow contributes to the purpose of the site, then I'm happy to be corrected.

The admins have done a great job in building this site into what it is - as ultraviolet said, for free - and it's still for me the best political literature resource there is, but perhaps some of the forum rules need revising and/or relaxing. Because at times it can feel like a bit of an impenetrable clique.

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Oct 6 2016 04:15

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Oct 6 2016 05:15

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Oct 6 2016 06:23

More ridiculing on post #40. Presumably the admins will be on that pretty sharpish?

So UV knocks it out of the park. A thorough, honest and indisputable post based on facts and written in a non aggressive, non partisan and extremely sensible way. The problem is that sensible doesn't hold much water here as evidenced by her 3 inexplicable down votes.
You know how liberals, Trots and I dare say any other political group of people have certain parameters and an accepted ground of discourse within which they can agree or disagree whilst remaining comfortable and we look at this and think what a bunch of narrow minded, unimaginative bunch of myopic numpties. Well, is it not possible that Libcommers are equally subject to such a social construct? So what happens when liberals for example are challenged with ideas outside of their usual thought zone? Well, they start talking shit to justify themselves, gang ridiculing and discrediting the challenger and looking for ways to shut them up so that they can settle back into their comfort zone. Of course they are totally oblivious to all this and smugly feel they've done a good job of removing the upstart. Well I put it to Libcom in general, the admins and a certain crew of persistent posters that this is exactly what's going on here. So, I've made accusations of groupthink and of course have been ridiculed for such a suggestion but if I'm correct that's bound to happen.
I don't mind being insulted or ridiculed - it often confirms what I already think and I'm more than capable of giving a whole lot better than I get but I do mind the fact that the site I found four years ago which transformed my politics and gave me political hope is nothing more than an echo chamber for insular back slapping fools. Turning a blind eye to the uncomfortable is also common here - three wise monkeys dressed in red and black nappies riding in circles on their little trikes. It's all such a shame.
Certainly not everyone is guilty of all this but almost everyone won't raise a challenge. It's about that time to pipe up if you smell the bullshit.
As has been said by others and myself many times I the past, Libcom is the best radical website by a country mile. The admins deserve heaping praise for this but that shouldn't make them exempt to scrutiny on how they police the site or any other connections to policing they may have.

So go ahead, mock, belittle, insult, whatever. Fill yer boots. You stick to your safety in numbers ridiculing policy. Do I give a shit? Well, yes actually. How the fuck will we build a significant movement whilst circle jerking and never stepping outside the safety zone of anarcho acceptability?

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Oct 6 2016 07:03
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As for those who say that Factvalue has made anti-Semitic posts, I did not read any of the posts that were mentioned. Clearly, though, the admin do not agree that he's been anti-Semitic or we would have been banned for that long ago. Bigotry is against libcom guidelines and from what I've seen admin are serious about enforcing that

I've accused him of borderline anti-semitism. Factvalue is an intelligent and sophisticated contributor and this has included him playing clever enough with comments that are well open to an interpretation of antisemitism but which are still just fuzzy enough to leave room for doubt and allow him to play the innocent "I ain't done nuffink" role. My suspicion is the admins couldn't decide either way so went for the "chicken-shit" derailing and being a bit rude option.

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Oct 6 2016 08:12

I’m reluctant to get involved in this discussion, though feel perhaps I should cough up.

I don’t think libcom is perfect, nothing is. When posting I’m a guest on someone else’s website. I support the cause of libcom and do not expect ‘perfection’ (from my personal perspective) from the administrators. If I go to someone’s house and they don’t like me farting, I try and respect their space, and treat libcom with a similar deference. So I broke their guide lines and got a warning – big deal. Other people get away with it (as most of us have), it only shows that the admins can get browned off and decide to call a halt.

I feel the petulant reaction to these decisions is likely a displacement activity for our mostly political impotence in the world at large. The majority of libcom critics I’ve met, in the real world, are liberals masquerading as anarchists. Finally, I do not expect to be ‘free’ in a capitalist society, so why should I project my fantasies onto libcom?

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Oct 6 2016 08:31

AB, I like to think we're real life friends and comrades and I have no beef with you but I think your post cuts others way too much slack. I guess it wasn't your intention to but it doesn't address the point I am making here. God knows I don't expect perfection from anyone but full tilt hypocrisy and manipulation of circumstances deserves calling out. That include admins and the fucking hypocrites on this thread pointing out ridiculing as a crime whilst doing it right here. It's laughable(not in a good way) and embarrassing.

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Oct 6 2016 09:18

Noah #45

Noah, my post was in no sense a personal slight on you. My point is not that everything you say is wrong, it is - what do you hope to be the outcome of slagging off other posters and the admin? A moral victory and a Saul like conversion on the road to libertarian communism? It’s not going to happen. Other people have other perspectives. Everyone’s motives are suspect. I’ve met you – does that make us a clique? I don’t think so and to proceed productively (in a political sense) we all must try and not tread on each other’s toes in terms of personal attacks.

Edit
Trying to get the words in order!

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Oct 6 2016 09:27

Yeah, that's fair enough. There is though, a difference between criticism such as I've made in my last few posts and personal attacks which I confess to being guilty of elsewhere. Those attacks always come after a refusal by others to either engage constructively or leave a topic alone and are born of my frustration at this. Not really a valid excuse I guess but as you say, we're none of us perfect.
What do I hope to get out of this? Not very much I suppose but then ask that question too much and you'd never bother doing anything. Plus there are more lurkers than contributors and I hope tha they will maybe get a broader view of anarchism than the usual poker in the ass well trodden path of mediocrity.

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Oct 6 2016 15:00
Noah Fence wrote:
AB, I like to think we're real life friends and comrades and I have no beef with you but I think your post cuts others way too much slack. I guess it wasn't your intention to but it doesn't address the point I am making here. God knows I don't expect perfection from anyone but full tilt hypocrisy and manipulation of circumstances deserves calling out. That include admins and the fucking hypocrites on this thread pointing out ridiculing as a crime whilst doing it right here. It's laughable(not in a good way) and embarrassing.

I'm not sure why I'm bothering to jump in at this point when it should be clear this thread is going nowhere, but...

This isn't about certain posters being banned while the same behavior is ignored in other posters. The bannings came after numerous warnings and after the admins had a hard look (at least as I understand it) at FV's posts in relation to anti-antisemitism. None of this came out of nowhere and it's disingenuous to say the least to treat this as some of 'challenging the orthodoxy' witch hunt.

The admins aren't perfect, they've sometimes made the wrong call (like when they've given me a warning wink), but I am curious about what supposed thoughtcrimes Noah and FV have committed? Being vegan? Continuing to derail threads after being warned not to on numerous occasions? Not taking on board the criticisms of our Jewish posters when they expressed their concerns of the anti-Semitic implications of their posts?

I just don't see any persecution here.

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Oct 6 2016 15:08

Also, Noah, what are you doing getting board with this Aufheben gate nonsense? You're better than that.

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Oct 6 2016 15:20
Chilli Sauce wrote:
Also, Noah, what are you doing getting board with this Aufheben gate nonsense? You're better than that.

What, I should just take your word for it that it's nonsense and ignore it? You see. That's exactly what I did years ago but it won't go away. This isn't the only place I look at politics. From the research I've done so far there definitely seems to be a bad smell emenating from Libcom. Whether it's just a small fart or someone has shat on the carpet I can't tell yet. But what does 'you're better than that' even mean? Better than doing a bit of research when I here that allegedly The Libcom Collective comports with cop collaborators? Surely, whether it's true or not I should at least look into it ffs?

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Oct 6 2016 15:36

Also, this is precisely about some posters getting in the arse whilst others do the same thing with impunity. Look at the admin statement, they banned him for derailing after being warned not to. Nothing to do with anti semitism. This happens all over the forums but people rarely get warned or banned. No, what they really banned him for was being too much of a smart arse.
And no, disengenuousness involves deciet and underhandness, I'm being straight up here. I know, it's a strange idea to say exactly what you think but you know, I thought I'd give it a go just for the hell of it.

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Oct 6 2016 15:47

Just for the record, FV is no smart ass. You're a smart ass Webby, Steven can be a smart ass, Revol was certainly a smart ass. FV, he's just a rambling, derailing, off-topic bloat of a poster who just likes to hear his own proverbial voice.

In a rush at the moment, but I'm pretty sure the admins specifically addressed FV's words on during that anti-Semitism discussion when they banned him. Am i wrong on that?

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Oct 6 2016 16:19

BTW, many of FV's antisemitic comments were quotes from that well known antisemite Norman Finklestein or his Jewish friend from Haifa. If that doesn't make FV a Nazi sympathiser and holocaust denier I don't know what does.

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Oct 6 2016 16:27

Yes, you are wrong on this;

Ed wrote

Quote:
Having discussed this amongst the admins, we have decided to make factvalue's ban permanent. He has been warned about his habitual derailing on numerous threads, as well as on the Micro-aggressions one where after being warned he then posted a link to a video of a children's TV show from the 1950s, initiating nostalgic reminiscences in complete disregard of the warning.
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Oct 6 2016 16:35
Auld-bod wrote:
I feel the petulant reaction to these decisions is likely a displacement activity for our mostly political impotence in the world at large.

Exactly

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Oct 6 2016 16:45

In this context FV’s alleged anti-Semitism is a red herring. After Steven asked for evidence of anti-Semitism, the evidence produced was circumstantial. Has no one ever read or seen the movie, ‘The Ox-Bow Incident’ (1943)?

By the same token, in my opinion, ‘Aufheben gate’ is a crock of crap cooked up by politicos with an axe to grind. Some kind of guilt by association bollocks. All this stuff is just scraping the barrel.

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Oct 6 2016 16:47
jef costello wrote:
Auld-bod wrote:
I feel the petulant reaction to these decisions is likely a displacement activity for our mostly political impotence in the world at large.

Exactly

Well there's some fucking insight for you, all condensed into one word too. FV should certainly take a leaf out of your book. Anyways, got to go now - I have to figure out how to communicate every thought I ever had in my life into one letter. Then I truly would have succeeded. So far the best I can manage is 7 letters: FUCK OFF.

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Oct 6 2016 17:07

Best thing about this thread is knowing that 5 years later, Samotnaf is still lurking around the site sending private messages to people telling them libcom is bad.

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Oct 6 2016 17:09

Noah, are you trying to court another ban?

As for me, I guess I stand corrected. That said, I'd still like to know what sort of heterodoxy you and FV are being punished for, Noah?

As for the Aufhaben stuff, Noah, are you seriously suggesting that the dude "collaborated" with the cops - like he was actively engaging and cooperating with them? Are you further suggesting that "libcom" (the admins? the ruling clique?), knowing this information, have made a conscious choice to defend him? Really man?

The dude may have made some ill-advised decisions (I don't know and I don't really care) and should maybe take a bit of responsibility for failing to consider how his research might be used. But to equate that with "collaborating" and then to implicate "libcom" in that? Come on, man.

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Oct 6 2016 17:16
Noah Fence wrote:
jef costello wrote:
Auld-bod wrote:
I feel the petulant reaction to these decisions is likely a displacement activity for our mostly political impotence in the world at large.

Exactly

Well there's some fucking insight for you, all condensed into one word too. FV should certainly take a leaf out of your book. Anyways, got to go now - I have to figure out how to communicate every thought I ever had in my life into one letter. Then I truly would have succeeded. So far the best I can manage is 7 letters: FUCK OFF.

This time perhaps stay gone.

Otherwise you'll just be back, either waving your mighty sword as the only one with the guts to call a spade a spade and stand up for what's right, or with one of those self-serving fake apologies for your behaviour.

If you genuinely wanted these forums to be better you would contribute something to them other than endlessly demands for attention. You may think that you're humble because you have occasional insights into yourself and can manage self-deprecation once in a while but this endless need to be the centre of attention and the immediate resort to nastiness or personal attacks as soon as someone fails to agree with you enough is absolutely selfish. I've been refusing to pour any energy into that black hole for a while and hopefully this will be the last time.

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Oct 6 2016 17:23

Trying to court another ban? No, that's coming later. Surely you know I could do a whole lot better than that?

Good to know an admin has poked their nose into my private correspondence. Maybe they saw the message from you Chilli saying the ban was unjustified. There you go, it got out in the end. Even if it didn't the admins would have seen it anyway.
As for the rest of your questions, I get enough of my kids patronising me, so spare me your condescention.