Osama Bin Laden Dead.

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Red-Metta
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May 2 2011 05:54
Osama Bin Laden Dead.

Osama Bin Laden Dead

Following the 9/11 attacks in 2001, and the subsequent declaration of war upon an abstract concept - terrorism - which saw the 'liberation' of Kuwait, the invasion of Iraq (twice), and the virtually ineffective entanglement with the Taliban in Afganistan, what direction will the War On Terror now take, considering that the number one bogeyman for the USA has been apparently killed in Pakistan - a country that gave rise to the Taliban Movement - and whose officials continuously denied any involvement in terrorism? Of course, the two countries that apparently provided the 19 terrorists who took part in the 9/11 attacks - namely Egypt and Saudi Arabia - have escaped unscathed from any US or direct Israeli retaliation.

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Hieronymous
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May 2 2011 06:12

Americans are sick. Looking at live video feeds from in front of the White House in Washington and Times Square in New York, the fascistic barbarians are chanting "USA, USA, USA..." ad nauseam. I shed no tears when a ruling class pig like Bin Laden is murdered, but I don't cheer either. It's like the spectacular tail wagging the mindless dog. How convenient for the U.S. state to allegedly pull this off on May Day.

At least some people around the world were memorializing August Spies, Albert Parsons, Adolph Fischer, George Engel, and Louis Lingg -- and the many, many class war martyrs from around the world.

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Gerostock
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May 2 2011 06:22

An interesting story to wake up to. Historically, I think it will be viewed as a micro-event, albeit a catalytic one. I doubt Osama had a position of influence in the non-mythological parts of Al-Qaida, and the invasion of the middle east has smeared the jihadi movement so widely and deeply into the muslim world that the loss of a figurehead like bin-Laden will cause merely a temporary darkening of morale.

There are some positives. The GOP, the party of 'gettin the terrorists', are already weeping over the loss of the 2012 election. Obama did in two relatively subdued years what Bush and Cheney couldn't do in the eight most militaristic years since the second world war. And if Chomsky was right that Obama's commitment to the occupation of Afganistan arises from a desire to leave the region with something resembling a victory, the death of bin-Laden might function as a credible alibi. After all, that's what they went in for.

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Mr. Jolly
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May 2 2011 07:07

@Hieronymous

You x? Bin Laden killed to move the news away from May Day, you are x Bruno.

Of course the americans gloating considering how many innocents they have killed leaves a sour tatse in the mouth. But its good that this loon is dog meat, its also a time to sit back and see the left spew their black and white anti-imperialist world view. Remember kids your enemies enemy is your friend, or just a 'narrative'.

admin: no flaming

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Juan Conatz
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May 2 2011 07:27

Fuck Bin Laden, but I really hope we ain't goin back to 2001-2002 with this ultranationalistic patriotic stuff.

Interesting to see what happens from here. Will it be a justification for intensifying the mythological 'War on Terror' because of this 'success'? Or will people be like "We got em, why are we still over there?"

Red-Metta
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May 2 2011 08:24

Osama bin Laden death: What to do with body poses dilemma for US

The above Guardian link considers what should be done with Osama Bin Laden's remains - and how the US authorities are trying not to offend Islamic tradition! I would have thought that it was a bit late for that. Sadam Hussein - following the illegal invasion of his country, was placed on world wide TV, with no dignity whatsoever, undergoing the most basic of so-called medical examinations. He was then put on show trial and executed on TV - or at least video 'phone. The hypocracy of US system is astonishing. One reason why they might be trying to be apparently considerate for Bin Laden's body, is that they will be using this event to justify the entire War On Terror- retroactively. Every injustice, every violation, and, of course, every single death caused by USA military action, will now be viewed as necessary, and ultimately contributing to Bin Laden's death. This will also be extended to justify the British involvement in these illegal Oil Wars - and offered as somekind of solice to the families of those who have died. The rightwing will now have a feeding frenzy. Of course, there have been claims of Bin Laden's death before - usually in Fortean Times, or The Enquirer, etc.

Update:
Osama bin Laden buried at sea

It would now appear that Osama Bin Laden has been buried at sea, thus avoiding Pakistani and Saudi embaressment, neither country not officially wanting a grave that could turn into a martyr's shrine. It also helps the USA to get rid of the evidence, in a more less permanent manner.

Red-Metta
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May 2 2011 08:36
Hieronymous wrote:
Americans are sick. Looking at live video feeds from in front of the White House in Washington and Times Square in New York, the fascistic barbarians are chanting "USA, USA, USA..." ad nauseam. I shed no tears when a ruling class pig like Bin Laden is murdered, but I don't cheer either. It's like the spectacular tail wagging the mindless dog. How convenient for the U.S. state to allegedly pull this off on May Day.

I broadly agree. The USA rightwing system appears to instill in its citizens, a certain sense of permanent emotional 'childishness', with regard to the viewing of world events, both happening within and outside of its geographical borders. It is amazing that the US system has no sense of shame, and is completely unable to objectivise itself, and understand how the rest of the world perceives their behaviour. Shouting 'USA' by an emotionally stunted mob, is reminiiscient of wrestling crowds watching a fixed match, or somekind of Disney film that is portraying a 'baddy' getting what he deserves.

Mike Harman
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May 2 2011 08:56

US state department has put out a global travel warning for US citizens following the assassination, runs until August for now - hhttp://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2011/05/02/State-Dept-warns-of-anti-US-reprisals/UPI-49771304321499/
This is due to an increased risk of anti-US attacks. So they are admitting, albeit indirectly, that the assassination is actually increasing the risk of terrorist attacks, at least in the short-medium term, rather than reducing it. I wonder if they'll extend the warning past the three months.

gypsy
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May 2 2011 09:39

Quite a coup for Obama. This will probably see him win the next election just off of this one assasination?

Samotnaf
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May 2 2011 10:19

Mike Harman:

Quote:
they are admitting, albeit indirectly, that the assassination is actually increasing the risk of terrorist attacks, at least in the short-medium term

Cut off the hydra's head and three grow back in its place; wouldn't be surprised if 1 of his look-alikes rises on the 3rd day - after all, where's the proof that they got him?

Quote:
After bin Laden was killed in a raid by US forces in Pakistan, senior administration officials said the body would be handled according to Islamic practice and tradition. That practice calls for the body to be buried within 24 hours, the official said. Finding a country willing to accept the remains of the world's most wanted terrorist would have been difficult, the official said. So the US decided to bury him at sea.

from here.
Perfect alibi for no real examination of the body: concern about Islamic practice (how kind) and not wishing to embarrass the Saudis or whoever. Such sensitivity from the US State.

Expect loads of conspiracy theories - Osama Bin Laden - CIA Triple Agent, etc. Or "Osama Bin Laden Abducted By Aliens, Statue of Osama Found On Mars" or maybe a proliferation of Osama gossip - "Osama Ate My Hamster", "My Night Of Passion With Osama - Kate Middleton", "Osama's Posthumous Outing: Elton John Reveals All", etc.

As for Red Metta's post:

Quote:
The USA rightwing system appears to instill in its citizens, a certain sense of permanent emotional 'childishness', with regard to the viewing of world events, both happening within and outside of its geographical borders. It is amazing that the US system has no sense of shame, and is completely unable to objectivise itself, and understand how the rest of the world perceives their behaviour. Shouting 'USA' by an emotionally stunted mob, is reminiiscient of wrestling crowds watching a fixed match, or somekind of Disney film that is portraying a 'baddy' getting what he deserves.

It's more developed in the USA than maybe elsewhere, but is it that much different in other capitalist countries? Takes a different content, of course, but those idiots saying how wonderful that kiss between dumb and dumber was on Friday is also indicative of "permanent emotional childishness" - that's how the spectacle works. Perhaps less cheering when a baddy dies but more crying when a goody dies (the millions crying when Di or John Lennon died; or, worse, even inmates of the gulag getting upset when Uncle Joe died).
And his earlier comment:

Quote:
The hypocracy of US system is astonishing.

Not at all astonishing - it's certainly no more hypocritical than any of the other hierarchical systems - hypocrisy is intrinsic to their power, though it's more blatant with the USA because it's the strongest world power militarily. When Britain was the top dog, there was The White Man's Burden - ever so slightly hypocritical. Tell me a form of hierarchy that isn't (in fact, in this the Nazis were probably less hypocritical than most: they said and did, for the most part, what they said they were going to do and didn't hide their brutality under humanitarian ideology)

Mark.
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May 2 2011 10:41

The man who broke the news of the US attack

Red-Metta
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May 2 2011 10:49
Mike Harman wrote:
US state department has put out a global travel warning for US citizens following the assassination, runs until August for now - hhttp://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2011/05/02/State-Dept-warns-of-anti-US-reprisals/UPI-49771304321499/
This is due to an increased risk of anti-US attacks. So they are admitting, albeit indirectly, that the assassination is actually increasing the risk of terrorist attacks, at least in the short-medium term, rather than reducing it. I wonder if they'll extend the warning past the three months.

Exactly. It appears Bin Laden was hiding-out in relative luxury in Pakistan. The news reports, if they are accurate, suggest that US military personnel killed him in his hide-out, implying that the Pakistani authorities gave permission for this killing to occur. I am sure, as the details emerge, we will be told that the mission was to capture Bin Laden - if possible - but in the event, as things unfolded, he had to be killed. Of course, there will be no bravery attached to his death, even if he put up a reasonable fight. The US forces will be 'brave', and he will be 'cowardly' - a perfect end to a film. Ironically, the USA - as a breakaway colony - was created by traitorous British, who would be called 'terrorists' today, and blanket bombed out of existence. Of course, making war on an abstract concept, such as 'terrorism', only adds fuel to the fire. I am not surprised that a so-called 'terror-alert' has been put out.

Red-Metta
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May 2 2011 11:41
Samotnaf wrote:
Tell me a form of hierarchy that isn't (in fact, in this the Nazis were probably less hypocritical than most: they said and did, for the most part, what they said they were going to do and didn't hide their brutality under humanitarian ideology)

Interesting. Although not an example I would use or a sentiment I would share, there has been talk of the far rightwing having somekind of 'understanding' with Islamic extremism.

Samotnaf wrote:
Not at all astonishing - it's certainly no more hypocritical than any of the other hierarchical systems - hypocrisy is intrinsic to their power, though it's more blatant with the USA because it's the strongest world power militarily.

I think it prudent to maintain at least a functional capacity to be astonished and dismayed, when rightwing ideology deprives the people of dignity.

Red-Metta
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May 2 2011 11:29
gypsy wrote:
Quite a coup for Obama. This will probably see him win the next election just off of this one assasination?

Assasination is probably the right word for what has transpired. I suspect that Bin Laden has been betrayed by the Pakistani authorities, in an attempt to court favour with the USA inparticular, and the West in general.

Rum Lad
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May 2 2011 10:58
Red-Metta wrote:
Of course, making war on an abstract concept, such as 'terrorism', only adds fuel to the fire. I am not surprised that a so-called 'terror-alert' has been put out.

It might be an abstract concept, but its certainly a concept abstracted from a variety of complex material circumstances. I know you aren't necessarily suggesting this, but to say that terrorism only exists in the abstract is a dangerous error.

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Steven.
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May 2 2011 11:09

40 incredibly stupid Facebook reactions to Osama's death:
http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/40-incredibly-dumb-facebook-reactions-to-osama-bin

Red-Metta
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May 2 2011 11:38
Rum Lad wrote:
It might be an abstract concept, but its certainly a concept abstracted from a variety of complex material circumstances. I know you aren't necessarily suggesting this, but to say that terrorism only exists in the abstract is a dangerous error.

Very true, but then any set of material circumstance can be presented (manipulated?), so as to present a 'terrorist' threat, even if none exists. There is state sponsored terrorism, and then there is terrorism aimed at the destabilisation of nation states. Terror, as a means to degrade and deprive humanity of its basic attribute of life has many causes. The USA using the 9/11 Attacks to justify war with two countries (Iraq and Afghanistan) that had nothing to do with those attacks, does seem to be a cynical manipulation of material circumstances - in the meantime, hundreds of thousands have been killed - all faceless, of course.

Jenre
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May 2 2011 11:44
Gerostock wrote:
There are some positives. The GOP, the party of 'gettin the terrorists', are already weeping over the loss of the 2012 election. Obama did in two relatively subdued years what Bush and Cheney couldn't do in the eight most militaristic years since the second world war.

i wouldn't call stepping up the war in Afghanistan and the increase of action within Pakistan as "subdued"

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Gerostock
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May 2 2011 12:45
Jenre wrote:
Gerostock wrote:
There are some positives. The GOP, the party of 'gettin the terrorists', are already weeping over the loss of the 2012 election. Obama did in two relatively subdued years what Bush and Cheney couldn't do in the eight most militaristic years since the second world war.

i wouldn't call stepping up the war in Afghanistan and the increase of action within Pakistan as "subdued"

Neither would I. Which is why I said it was relative.

Jenre
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May 2 2011 13:06
Gerostock wrote:
Jenre wrote:
Gerostock wrote:
There are some positives. The GOP, the party of 'gettin the terrorists', are already weeping over the loss of the 2012 election. Obama did in two relatively subdued years what Bush and Cheney couldn't do in the eight most militaristic years since the second world war.

i wouldn't call stepping up the war in Afghanistan and the increase of action within Pakistan as "subdued"

Neither would I. Which is why I said it was relative.

he largely escalated what Bush had started in the middle east, so i don't think it was even "relatively subdued". whatever though. just a minor point

petey
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May 2 2011 15:47
Quote:
Looking at live video feeds from in front of the White House in Washington and Times Square in New York

yes that was disgusting. some guys were chest-bumping even

Quote:
The GOP, the party of 'gettin the terrorists', are already weeping over the loss of the 2012 election.

it’s four more years; he also referenced bush in the statement, which neutralizes GOP backtalk. but there is no real distinction between the GOP and the democrats in the get-the-terrorists department. paleocon republicans (like ron paul) voted against the iraq war resolution too.
still, fox cut away at midnight in new york to show TMZ while the other networks kept it going. I guess they couldn’t resist their bit of snideness.

Quote:
Assasination is probably the right word.

unless you’re the network anchor (I was watching nbc so either gregory or williams) who called the action “being presidential at the highest level: taking the decision to authorize an attack which will result in loss of life” vel sim.

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Soapy
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May 2 2011 17:21

I live in Washington DC next to a college campus so you can imagine what it was like for me. All night there were frat boys going around the hallway of my apartment complex chanting U-S-A and whatnot. Even my roommates (liberal to progressive) got up and went to the white house to join the party. It was as if all of a sudden over the top patriotism was cool again. Just a fucking awful night altogether

Harrison
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May 2 2011 17:50
Steven. wrote:
40 incredibly stupid Facebook reactions to Osama's death:
http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/40-incredibly-dumb-facebook-reactions-to-osama-bin

this is incredibly awful

petey wrote:
yes that was disgusting. some guys were chest-bumping even

ach no.

Harrison
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May 2 2011 17:54
Soapy wrote:
I live in Washington DC next to a college campus so you can imagine what it was like for me. All night there were frat boys going around the hallway of my apartment complex chanting U-S-A and whatnot. Even my roommates (liberal to progressive) got up and went to the white house to join the party. It was as if all of a sudden over the top patriotism was cool again. Just a fucking awful night altogether

that does sound fucking awful

wojtek
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May 2 2011 18:36
Harrison Myers wrote:
Soapy wrote:
I live in Washington DC next to a college campus so you can imagine what it was like for me. All night there were frat boys going around the hallway of my apartment complex chanting U-S-A and whatnot. Even my roommates (liberal to progressive) got up and went to the white house to join the party. It was as if all of a sudden over the top patriotism was cool again. Just a fucking awful night altogether

that does sound fucking awful

"The horrible thing about the Two Minutes Hate was not that one was obliged to act a part, but that it was impossible to avoid joining in. Within thirty seconds any pretence was always unnecessary. A hideous ecstasy of fear and vindictiveness, a desire to kill, to torture, to smash faces in with a sledge hammer, seemed to flow through the whole group of people like an electric current, turning one even against one's will into a grimacing, screaming lunatic. And yet the rage that one felt was an abstract, undirected emotion which could be switched from one object to another like the flame of a blowlamp."

Chapter 1, Nighteen Eighty-Four

so depressing. Obama, Cameron and Miliband all seem to have the same orwellian scipt as well; we need to be "vigilant" at home and abroad (oppress civil liberties), the world's a "safer place" (we still have a monopoly on terror), etc.

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jef costello
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May 2 2011 18:41

The BBC changed their programming schedule today for National Treasure* followed by a news special

*brief summary: USA USA also freemasons USA

Tex
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May 2 2011 19:16
gypsy wrote:
Quite a coup for Obama. This will probably see him win the next election just off of this one assasination?

Not that it's incredibly significant which party happens to be running an imperialist nation-state but if someone thinks that the murder of one, albeit important, man will still be significant to the election come nineteen months from now then they must be vastly underestimating how quickly people forget things in the media echo chamber.

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May 2 2011 19:28
Samotnaf wrote:
Perfect alibi for no real examination of the body: concern about Islamic practice (how kind) and not wishing to embarrass the Saudis or whoever. Such sensitivity from the US State.

Is there actually any empirical and confirmable evidence which can be shown to the public and / or reviewed by separate organizations? Not trying to be conspiratorial about this, but if there is no evidence presented besides "we did a DNA test" then this could easily be another "there are WMD in Iraq" kinda thing.

Red-Metta
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May 2 2011 19:43
NoRefunds wrote:
Is there actually any empirical and confirmable evidence which can be shown to the public and / or reviewed by separate organizations? Not trying to be conspiratorial about this, but if there is no evidence presented besides "we did a DNA test" then this could easily be another "there are WMD in Iraq" kinda thing.

Well said. The problem with everything since 9/11, is that it makes no sense whatsoever. Even this less than glamorous and relatively low profile exit from the world stage of Osama Bin Laden, has all the hallmarks of a new Michael Moore movie - something like 'Obama & Osama - Stop The BS'. You are right - where is the body? There is a picture going around the net of what appears to be a dead Bin Laden, shot in the head, but people are saying that it is fake. Furthermore, I do remember a Nexus article, which translated an interview with Bin Laden some years back, where Bin Laden denied any responsibility in the 9/11 bombings. Prior to his execution, Tim McVeigh said that something big was going to happen in the USA - and McVeigh was a distinguished soldier in the first Iraq War.It is interesting to remember that the BBC actually announced the collapsing of a building sometime before it actually collapsed, with the journalist stood with the intact building in question just behind her, when she made the announcement.

Samotnaf
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May 2 2011 20:02

I know conspiracy theory ideology becomes a paranoid impotent obsession of the spectacle's omnipotent power without real direction BUT:
Does the following make sense? -
a photo of the dead Osama is released and a few hours later is revealed to be a bad fake;
no actual photo of the dead guy is released;
his body, apparently in "sensitively" keeping with Islamic law , is buried at sea within 24 hours of his death;
Islamic law does not allow for burial at sea in such circumstances - the body has to be buried on land;
the justification for this burial at sea is hinted at in the discussions suggesting a mausoleum or simple grave would become a focus for demonstrations in support of the Great Martyr;
so far no film of the assault has been made even though such assaults are usually carried out by soldiers with cameras on their helmets - the only film so far is of the buildings on fire, filmed from afar.

Perhaps he's been dead for some time and that now it's convenient to claim he's been killed. Why convenient? Because the chances are that this will up the war of Jihad terrorism versus State terrorism. All the better in the name of claiming to have brought it to an end.
The Taliban says it will seek revenge. High security alerts are put on flights. I suspect that those kidnapped by the Taliban have very little chance now of surviving. In France, the photos of 2 journalists who were kidnapped in Afghanistan over 18 months ago, are twice daily shown on the news (for something like 500 days, imbedded in the spectator's psyche relentlessly) with a "lest we forget"-type message and all the towns in France have photos of them hanging up in the squares or wherever. Recently some cadres working for the obnoxious nuclear power company Areva, who'd been kidnapped in Nigeria, were released ( they felt obliged to make a public appeal for France to leave Afghanistan), whilst others kidnapped were kept captive. Don't hold out much chance of their survival. And when these cadres die, the nationalism of the French could possibly become as insipidly nauseating as those in New York etc. Could this be what Glenn Beck referred to, when talking about the uprising in Suez, Cairo and the rest of Egypt, as

Quote:
"the Archduke Ferdinand moment"

? Perhaps not WWlll but certainly an increase in terrorism which then leads to an even greater crackdown than that which followed the attacks on the Twin Towers.
But why?
A way of cracking down on the progress of social movements, which are bubbling under the surface (France, the UK, Tunisia, Egypt, Wisconsin....have a look at The Tunisia Effect thread). A way of giving an alibi to even greater control of North Africa and the Middle East.

In Lloyd George's "War Memoirs", he said:

Quote:
In the summer of 1914 there was every sign that the autumn would witness a series of industrial disturbances without precedent...A strong rank and file movement, keenly critical of the policies and methods of the official leaders of Trade Unionism, had sprung up and was gaining steadily in strength. Such was the state of the home front when the nation was plunged into war.

The problem with conspiracy theory is that it's indiscriminate and never tries to understand underlying reasons. But some of these conspiracies exist.

What do you think?

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sabot
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May 2 2011 20:51

O fuck off all of youse!! I know what this is really about. You're just jealous of our freedoms and our BIG American penis’s.

U-S-A!! U-S-A!!