Marxist-Leninists who say socialism is merely a transition to communism even if the economy is capitalist

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Lucky Black Cat
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Jul 24 2021 17:40
Marxist-Leninists who say socialism is merely a transition to communism even if the economy is capitalist

Some Marxist-Leninists say socialism is merely a society in transition from capitalism to communism*, even if most of the means of production are privately owned by capitalists who exploit the labor of workers.

Other Marxist-Leninists disagree and say that along with being a transition from capitalism to communism, a socialist mode of production requires that the state own and control most of the means of production and that the market is subordinate to state economic planning.

Is there a name for each type of Marxist-Leninist? For the former, I'm aware of the term Dengist but it’s more than just them who define socialism this way.

* (Or at least the ruling party claims that such a transition is occurring)

adri
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Jul 24 2021 18:12

Not sure if it answers your question, but the use of "socialism" as some lower phase of society I think originates with Lenin in State and Revolution:

Lenin wrote:
But the scientific distinction between socialism and communism is clear. What is usually called socialism was termed by Marx the “first”, or lower, phase of communist society.

As far as Marx and Engels were concerned they used the terms socialism, communism, and other expressions like association of free producers, interchangeably to refer to the same moneyless, stateless, classless society where production is consciously organized and carried out to meet human needs. If I recall they favored one expression over the other at various points to avoid association with certain groups and people. See for example Engels' 1888 preface to the Communist Manifesto explaining how, "when it was written, we could not have called it a socialist manifesto. By Socialists, in 1847, were understood, on the one hand the adherents of the various Utopian systems [...]"

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Lucky Black Cat
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Jul 24 2021 18:26

Thanks Adri. But even though Lenin in State & Revolution did use the word socialism to mean what Marx had called the first phase of communist society (although Lenin did more than rename it, he added a few ideas of his own of what socialism would be like), Marxist-Leninists don't use the word socialism in the way that Lenin did.

What Lenin called state-capitalism, Marxist-Leninists call socialism. And now there are some MLs who will even use the word socialist for what seems to not even be state-capitalism but just ordinary capitalism with an above average level of state intervention.

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Noah Fence
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Jul 24 2021 20:03
Quote:
Is there a name for each type of Marxist-Leninist?

The first type is known as a ‘Cock’ and the second type is know as a ‘Fucking Wanker’. Let me know you have any further questions.

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Lucky Black Cat
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Jul 25 2021 17:32

Thanks, Noah, I'm glad you know more theory than I do

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Noah Fence
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Jul 26 2021 16:54
Lucky Black Cat wrote:
Thanks, Noah, I'm glad you know more theory than I do

On the contrary LBC - I would imagine that even your buddies at Prager U know more theory than I do!

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Noah Fence
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Jul 26 2021 16:55
Lucky Black Cat wrote:
Thanks, Noah, I'm glad you know more theory than I do

On the contrary LBC - I would imagine that even your buddies at Prager U know more theory than I do!

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Noah Fence
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Jul 26 2021 16:56

God, I’m an idiot boomer of the very highest order. Ffs.

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Lucky Black Cat
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Jul 27 2021 23:47
Noah Fence wrote:
God, I’m an idiot boomer of the very highest order. Ffs.

Once again your precise knowledge of the facts astonishes me.

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Noah Fence
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Jul 28 2021 06:57
Lucky Black Cat wrote:
Noah Fence wrote:
God, I’m an idiot boomer of the very highest order. Ffs.

Once again your precise knowledge of the facts astonishes me.

Brilliant!!!

Mike Harman
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Jul 29 2021 08:47

Most of the MLs you'll find online are from either the Workers World Party or the Party for Socialism and Liberation (which split from the former).

There's an article on their origins here, they were originally Trots which makes it more complicated.

https://libcom.org/library/roots-workers-world-party-ken-lawrence

radicalgraffiti
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Jul 30 2021 00:50
Mike Harman wrote:
Most of the MLs you'll find online are from either the Workers World Party or the Party for Socialism and Liberation (which split from the former).

There's an article on their origins here, they were originally Trots which makes it more complicated.

https://libcom.org/library/roots-workers-world-party-ken-lawrence

maybe i'm underestimating the membership of those organisations, but dont i think the majority of online mls have ever been involved in any real life organisation

freemind
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Jul 30 2021 10:33

Hello Black Cat.
I think all the Leftist procrastination about Stages to Communism has become convoluted.Lenin to me was one of the worst culprits in trying to justify his retreat from fundamental Marxist Communist theory and compromise to Capital ie Taylor ism,Regimentation of Labour etc.
I do accept the Stage line of thought to a degree in that after the State is overthrown the Working Class has to ensure that Reaction does not regroup.Then it can institute Communism and the Libertarian production process and participation of all members of society.
I don't see anything other than Leftist prevarication otherwise.
In my opinion

ajjohnstone
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Jul 31 2021 07:31

Perhaps to the consternation of my Party comrades, I cannot forget Victor Serge's comment

Quote:
The Bolshevik party saw in the perils it confronted the excuse for its Jacobin methods. I think it’s undeniable that its Jacobinism contained in germ Stalinist totalitarianism, but Bolshevism also contained other seeds, other possibilities of evolution. The proof is in the struggles, the initiatives, and the final sacrifice of its various oppositions.

Mike Harman
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Aug 4 2021 07:13
radicalgraffiti wrote:
Mike Harman wrote:
Most of the MLs you'll find online are from either the Workers World Party or the Party for Socialism and Liberation (which split from the former).

There's an article on their origins here, they were originally Trots which makes it more complicated.

https://libcom.org/library/roots-workers-world-party-ken-lawrence

maybe i'm underestimating the membership of those organisations, but dont i think the majority of online mls have ever been involved in any real life organisation

Yeah 'from' is overdoing it, but there's those two groups, plus the networks of dodgy journos around the Grayzone and some other places, and Michael Parenti as the main 'public intellectual' and most of the online MLs are pretty close to one or the other in terms of where they get their politics from. It's not like with trots a couple of decades ago where there'd be 50 groups with wildly contradicting positions that hate each other.