It makes me nervous that revolutionaries (groups and individuals) would want or need to have answers. It seems to me that revolutionaries should have more questions than answers. Obviously, revolutionaries should have critical analyses and strategic suggestions based on those analyses, but answers? Makes it sound like if only we have the right program, we will succeed... That's turned out so well throughout history.
I misread your question to having 'kids' in it, and now I am imagining a revolutionary kindergarten class, with David Graeber trying to teach the kids revolutionary theory and practice, and they are just kind of looking on dumbfounded. And Graeber kind of just sighs at the end of the day.
It makes me nervous that revolutionaries (groups and individuals) would want or need to have answers. It seems to me that revolutionaries should have more questions than answers. Obviously, revolutionaries should have critical analyses and strategic suggestions based on those analyses, but answers? Makes it sound like if only we have the right program, we will succeed... That's turned out so well throughout history.
I would actually agree, but what questions should we be thinking about is more the spirit.
I think there are three fairly simple questions which aren't considered enough -
1) What action can we take which will build working class power?
2) What can we do to educate each other and the wider class about revolutionary thought?
3) What skills do our members need to be effective revolutionaries?
I think revolutionaries should have answers for those things you reccomends. The answer to the problem of capitalism? The workers taking power and organizing production around need.
The tricky stuff is in the details. A lot of that is mired in New Left and Comintern politics that have very little basis on reality.
Do workers need political organization? Is unity of the class 'reductionist' or a means for breaking down divisions of nationality, race, gender etc.? How would the political organization of workers be organized internally? How would that affect the revolutionary process?
What does 'working class power's even mean? Taking over the military? A coup?
These are things we can (I think) and ought to have answers for; they form the basis of any argument *for* revolution, and without answering them, revolution is just a mirage, posturing, or sloganeering .
I think revolutionaries should have an answer towards how do we make sure our revolution, once free from its constraints by the old society, doesnt turn bad and into an unwanted nightmarish monster.
I think a lot of workers are discontented of capitalism but when they look for possible solutions they can only find the revolution. But then revolutions can be scary because even a successful overthrow of the old regime does not guarantee a successful revolution. And so because revolutions are scary their (the workers) discontentment turns into nothing.
* why what we have now is fucked
* why it doesn't have to be that way
* what we want instead
* how to get there from here
* OK, so that sounds great, so what do I do tomorrow?
My group is a two tiered system of working exchanges between paired members every pairing cycling out every 3 weeks and the focus of every pair cycling every two. Every position is subordinate and directive simultaneously and the decisions, executive, legislative, and judicial are dispersed in a network through telephone, mail,text,tumblr and email listserv (riseup for extra safety). Meetings are not face to face but Skype (or similar service) only on library computers. We meet first and third Mondays and second and fourth tuesdays of each month.
Are you talking about internally, in propaganda, in published works, in outreach to the general public etc.?
A lot of good ideas so far. For me the most important thing is making people feel that things can change and that even if they don't that it is worth trying.
First the working class forms the organisational means that is needed for the revolution. It can be federations and such and anarchosyndicalist trade unions with the specific purpose of overthrowing capitalism and the state.
Once these are in operation the state can be paralysed through a general strike. Now that the state is paralysed it can be put to an end through insurrection. Go to the military bases and grab the weapons that are there and you will see the police run away as the cowards they are. The organisations and trade unions formed in the beginning will come out as the winners of the classwar and whatever is left of capitalist production can be dealt with in a direct way so that it becomes socialist production.
And what do the working class do on the seventh day?
Gulai Polye
Schmoopie
This is one I have difficulty conceiving.
First the working class forms the organisational means that is needed for the revolution. It can be federations and such and anarchosyndicalist trade unions with the specific purpose of overthrowing capitalism and the state.
Once these are in operation the state can be paralysed through a general strike. Now that the state is paralysed it can be put to an end through insurrection. Go to the military bases and grab the weapons that are there and you will see the police run away as the cowards they are. The organisations and trade unions formed in the beginning will come out as the winners of the classwar and whatever is left of capitalist production can be dealt with in a direct way so that it becomes socialist production.
I have been thinking on this same question a lot recently. It is a big question, but I can think of no other way of having a revolutionary identity without coming up with at least a basic answer to these:
1- Why a revolution is possible and necessary?
2- How a revolution can happen?
3- What is the role of a revolutionary in and for a revolution?
4- What is comradeship?
[quote]Go to the military bases and grab the weapons that are there and you will see the police run away as the cowards they are.[quote]
Ummm....Do Challenger tanks have a gear stick shift or are these things have automatic gear transmissions these days? Just asking if in case i am needed to drive one when we overwhelm the nearby arsenal, once i Google map where it is and get there with my free OAP bus pass.
Nawww...my take is that come the revolution, much of the police and military might well be on our side and come over to us...but i'm an SPGBer, therefore i am a bit of a wimp when it comes to armed insurrection and barricades.
Getting a bit on in years, too, and reluctant to pass on the responsibility of revolutionary action to younger and fitter comrades. I'm hoping for a cross-generational revolution where we all play a crucial part in the battle of ideas rather than in the battle of the streets. I'd rather throw heavy tome of Volume 3 of Capital at our class enemies rather than a half-brick.
Getting a bit on in years, too, and reluctant to pass on the responsibility of revolutionary action to younger and fitter comrades. I'm hoping for a cross-generational revolution where we all play a crucial part in the battle of ideas rather than in the battle of the streets. I'd rather throw heavy tome of Volume 3 of Capital at our class enemies rather than a half-brick.
If this guy had thrown some books after ISIS he would have gotten nowhere...
1- Why a revolution is possible and necessary?
2- How a revolution can happen?
I may be in a party of one here but my conception of working class revolution is that it is happening and has been happening from the inception of class society. The most important task the working class can achieve now is to decide what it wants to replace the world of class society with.
As I said in my previous post I have an unusual stance because I believe, contrary to how things may appear, the working class is pretty much in the driving seat. A few vestiges of old world power still remain but I believe that if we could formulate exactly what we wish the world to be transformed into, then we could set about carrying out the task. I have written my own blueprint for that transformation and it is as follows:
As I said in my previous post I have an unusual stance because I believe, contrary to how things may appear, the working class is pretty much in the driving seat. A few vestiges of old world power still remain but I believe that if we could formulate exactly what we wish the world to be transformed into, then we could set about carrying out the task.
We could set about carrying out the task of abolishing capitalism... but the ruling class would quickly use the cops, prisons, and if need by the military to crush us. We'd need to fight back, encourage mutiny.
I have written my own blueprint for that transformation and it is as follows:
Precepts for future sustainable development:
Local manufacture (hand-production)
Free association (between individuals)
Diversified farming (as opposed to monocultural)
That all sounds nice, but it would not do anything to overthrow capitalism.
Lifelong marriage (by natural selection)
[/quote]
Yikes. That sounds like something out of a dystopian nightmare. Are you saying divorce should be forbidden? That's terrible. Even the idea of marriage doesn't really have a place in a stateless society. And what do you even mean by natural selection in this case?
I thought this was the best part of the revolutionary plan.
All the marriage candidates would declare themselves eligible at a grand selection. Then everyone would be married simultaneously to everyone else. So no silly arguments about who belongs to who. Perfect.
Once again I reiterate, it is my perspective that capitalism is far on the road to it's abolition. Throughout this process our struggle has faced the violent reaction of the forces of order, most recently in Syria. As in the past capital will try to reconstruct itself. The question is, will it be successful? If it does, then the whole cycle of valorisation will start again. If not, then there will be a vacuum in which the creation of our future will have space to grow.
I don't know what 'dystopian' means but for me marriage is a pleasure that we have freely (by natural selection) chosen.
The dictatorship of the proletariat and soviet despotism
The dictatorship of the proletariat is the same as a worker beating up a capitalist until he surrenders and becomes a worker. There is nothing wrong with that.
What The dictatorship of the proletariat is not, is a worker beating up another worker.
A lot of confusion has developed out of this.
soviet despotism is an oxymoron. First despotism requires a despot with absolute power, while in a soviet decisions are made collectively by the workers for the workers. And a soviet doesnt have more power than what the workers has attributed to it.
The dictatorship of the proletariat and soviet despotism
The dictatorship of the proletariat is the same as a worker beating up a capitalist until he surrenders and becomes a worker. There is nothing wrong with that.
What The dictatorship of the proletariat is not, is a worker beating up another worker.
A lot of confusion has developed out of this.
soviet despotism is an oxymoron. First despotism requires a despot with absolute power, while in a soviet decisions are made collectively by the workers for the workers. And a soviet doesnt have more power than what the workers has attributed to it.
I was sorta joking..... it was a play on this pamphlet: https://palmm.digital.flvc.org/islandora/object/ucf%3A4789
* why what we have now is fucked
* why it doesn't have to be that way
* what we want instead
* how to get there from here
* OK, so that sounds great, so what do I do tomorrow?
Surely the thread should have been locked after this comment, no? The button fucking nailed it.
* why what we have now is fucked
* why it doesn't have to be that way
* what we want instead
* how to get there from here
* OK, so that sounds great, so what do I do tomorrow?
Surely the thread should have been locked after this comment, no? The button fucking nailed it.
You people... this threat is extremely tiresome, Someone comes with a serious question and all you folks are jabbering is bullshit and cynical comments.
It's rather depressing almost no-one takes the time to truly answer the question. Maybe it is because you have no proper answer? Rather then finding it a ridiculous question not worthy to answer properly...
It makes me nervous that
It makes me nervous that revolutionaries (groups and individuals) would want or need to have answers. It seems to me that revolutionaries should have more questions than answers. Obviously, revolutionaries should have critical analyses and strategic suggestions based on those analyses, but answers? Makes it sound like if only we have the right program, we will succeed... That's turned out so well throughout history.
I misread your question to
I misread your question to having 'kids' in it, and now I am imagining a revolutionary kindergarten class, with David Graeber trying to teach the kids revolutionary theory and practice, and they are just kind of looking on dumbfounded. And Graeber kind of just sighs at the end of the day.
Black Badger wrote: It makes
Black Badger
I would actually agree, but what questions should we be thinking about is more the spirit.
Is 'primitive communism' a
Is 'primitive communism' a reality? Is there any basis in science to confirm it?
If a form of communism/anarchy exists in the past then it is easier to imagine a future.
I think there are three
I think there are three fairly simple questions which aren't considered enough -
1) What action can we take which will build working class power?
2) What can we do to educate each other and the wider class about revolutionary thought?
3) What skills do our members need to be effective revolutionaries?
What do you think thru should
What do you think thru should be Klas?
I think revolutionaries
I think revolutionaries should have answers for those things you reccomends. The answer to the problem of capitalism? The workers taking power and organizing production around need.
The tricky stuff is in the details. A lot of that is mired in New Left and Comintern politics that have very little basis on reality.
Do workers need political organization? Is unity of the class 'reductionist' or a means for breaking down divisions of nationality, race, gender etc.? How would the political organization of workers be organized internally? How would that affect the revolutionary process?
What does 'working class power's even mean? Taking over the military? A coup?
These are things we can (I think) and ought to have answers for; they form the basis of any argument *for* revolution, and without answering them, revolution is just a mirage, posturing, or sloganeering .
I think revolutionaries
I think revolutionaries should have an answer towards how do we make sure our revolution, once free from its constraints by the old society, doesnt turn bad and into an unwanted nightmarish monster.
I think a lot of workers are discontented of capitalism but when they look for possible solutions they can only find the revolution. But then revolutions can be scary because even a successful overthrow of the old regime does not guarantee a successful revolution. And so because revolutions are scary their (the workers) discontentment turns into nothing.
* why what we have now is
* why what we have now is fucked
* why it doesn't have to be that way
* what we want instead
* how to get there from here
* OK, so that sounds great, so what do I do tomorrow?
What's the structure of your
What's the structure of your group and how does it work?
My group is a two tiered
My group is a two tiered system of working exchanges between paired members every pairing cycling out every 3 weeks and the focus of every pair cycling every two. Every position is subordinate and directive simultaneously and the decisions, executive, legislative, and judicial are dispersed in a network through telephone, mail,text,tumblr and email listserv (riseup for extra safety). Meetings are not face to face but Skype (or similar service) only on library computers. We meet first and third Mondays and second and fourth tuesdays of each month.
Nah I'm just kidding.
Are you talking about
Are you talking about internally, in propaganda, in published works, in outreach to the general public etc.?
A lot of good ideas so far. For me the most important thing is making people feel that things can change and that even if they don't that it is worth trying.
the button: Quote: * how to
the button:
This is one I have difficulty conceiving.
Schmoopie wrote: This is one
Schmoopie
First the working class forms the organisational means that is needed for the revolution. It can be federations and such and anarchosyndicalist trade unions with the specific purpose of overthrowing capitalism and the state.
Once these are in operation the state can be paralysed through a general strike. Now that the state is paralysed it can be put to an end through insurrection. Go to the military bases and grab the weapons that are there and you will see the police run away as the cowards they are. The organisations and trade unions formed in the beginning will come out as the winners of the classwar and whatever is left of capitalist production can be dealt with in a direct way so that it becomes socialist production.
And what do the working class
And what do the working class do on the seventh day?
Gulai Polye
Sleeper wrote: And what do
Sleeper
Well if you wanna start out with an insurrection then go ahead i wont stop you. Just keep in mind that there is logic in what i said
The most important question a
The most important question a revolutionary group should have an answer for is why doesn't the revolution ever happen?
Quote: Sleeper wrote: And
They rest.
Quote: They rest We never
We never get a rest and that is why we are revolutionary: we need rest.
This one could tempt me to click 'down' but I have my principles: positive vibrations.
I have been thinking on this
I have been thinking on this same question a lot recently. It is a big question, but I can think of no other way of having a revolutionary identity without coming up with at least a basic answer to these:
1- Why a revolution is possible and necessary?
2- How a revolution can happen?
3- What is the role of a revolutionary in and for a revolution?
4- What is comradeship?
Quote: Go to the military
[quote]Go to the military bases and grab the weapons that are there and you will see the police run away as the cowards they are.[quote]
Ummm....Do Challenger tanks have a gear stick shift or are these things have automatic gear transmissions these days? Just asking if in case i am needed to drive one when we overwhelm the nearby arsenal, once i Google map where it is and get there with my free OAP bus pass.
Nawww...my take is that come the revolution, much of the police and military might well be on our side and come over to us...but i'm an SPGBer, therefore i am a bit of a wimp when it comes to armed insurrection and barricades.
Getting a bit on in years, too, and reluctant to pass on the responsibility of revolutionary action to younger and fitter comrades. I'm hoping for a cross-generational revolution where we all play a crucial part in the battle of ideas rather than in the battle of the streets. I'd rather throw heavy tome of Volume 3 of Capital at our class enemies rather than a half-brick.
Yeah that will really work,
Yeah that will really work, won't it , Vol 3 of Capital.
ajjohnstone wrote: Getting a
ajjohnstone
If this guy had thrown some books after ISIS he would have gotten nowhere...
https://www.facebook.com/AnarchismandRojava/photos/a.1478915849056900.1073741828.1478873215727830/1741646312783851/?type=3&theater
mikail firtinaci: Quote: 1-
mikail firtinaci:
I may be in a party of one here but my conception of working class revolution is that it is happening and has been happening from the inception of class society. The most important task the working class can achieve now is to decide what it wants to replace the world of class society with.
Schmoopie wrote: The most
Schmoopie
Will you elaborate on that?
Love your name, btw :D
As I said in my previous post
As I said in my previous post I have an unusual stance because I believe, contrary to how things may appear, the working class is pretty much in the driving seat. A few vestiges of old world power still remain but I believe that if we could formulate exactly what we wish the world to be transformed into, then we could set about carrying out the task. I have written my own blueprint for that transformation and it is as follows:
Precepts for future sustainable development:
Local manufacture (hand-production)
Free association (between individuals)
Diversified farming (as opposed to monocultural)
Lifelong marriage (by natural selection)
Schmoopie: What?? That has
Schmoopie:
What?? That has almost nothing to do with socialism ..
I am not a socialist.
I am not a socialist.
syndicalist wrote: What do
syndicalist
Schmoopie wrote: As I said in
Schmoopie
We could set about carrying out the task of abolishing capitalism... but the ruling class would quickly use the cops, prisons, and if need by the military to crush us. We'd need to fight back, encourage mutiny.
That all sounds nice, but it would not do anything to overthrow capitalism.
[/quote]
Yikes. That sounds like something out of a dystopian nightmare. Are you saying divorce should be forbidden? That's terrible. Even the idea of marriage doesn't really have a place in a stateless society. And what do you even mean by natural selection in this case?
‘Lifelong marriage (by
‘Lifelong marriage (by natural selection)’
I thought this was the best part of the revolutionary plan.
All the marriage candidates would declare themselves eligible at a grand selection. Then everyone would be married simultaneously to everyone else. So no silly arguments about who belongs to who. Perfect.
Once again I reiterate, it is
Once again I reiterate, it is my perspective that capitalism is far on the road to it's abolition. Throughout this process our struggle has faced the violent reaction of the forces of order, most recently in Syria. As in the past capital will try to reconstruct itself. The question is, will it be successful? If it does, then the whole cycle of valorisation will start again. If not, then there will be a vacuum in which the creation of our future will have space to grow.
I don't know what 'dystopian' means but for me marriage is a pleasure that we have freely (by natural selection) chosen.
Thanks seahorse
Wait, the war in Syria is the
Wait, the war in Syria is the result of counter revolutionary violence? What revolution?
deleted
deleted
Why Anarchists have not
Why Anarchists have not addressed the attitude of power and dictatorship ie;class power and ridding non class elements of our 'movement'
Non class elements?
Non class elements?
The dictatorship of the
The dictatorship of the proletariat and soviet despotism
deleted
deleted
syndicalist wrote: The
syndicalist
The dictatorship of the proletariat is the same as a worker beating up a capitalist until he surrenders and becomes a worker. There is nothing wrong with that.
What The dictatorship of the proletariat is not, is a worker beating up another worker.
A lot of confusion has developed out of this.
soviet despotism is an oxymoron. First despotism requires a despot with absolute power, while in a soviet decisions are made collectively by the workers for the workers. And a soviet doesnt have more power than what the workers has attributed to it.
Gulai Polye
Gulai Polye
I was sorta joking..... it was a play on this pamphlet: https://palmm.digital.flvc.org/islandora/object/ucf%3A4789
jojo wrote: The most
jojo
This is the best thing I've ever read on the internet.
Unless you count the French revolution and maybe a few others.
cactus #42 I don't think the
cactus #42
I don't think the French revolution happened on the internet.
Quote: I don't think the
http://www.thefrenchrev.com/
Aha, my mistake!
Aha, my mistake!
the button wrote: * why what
the button
Surely the thread should have been locked after this comment, no? The button fucking nailed it.
Who has the keys to Freedom?
Who has the keys to Freedom?
America.
America.
Fall Back wrote: Who has the
Fall Back
The workers - the problem is they cant find the door
will my toothbrush be
will my toothbrush be nationalized post-rev????
Serge Forward wrote: the
Serge Forward
The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.
Is this the right room for an
Is this the right room for an argument?
Is that the five minute
Is that the five minute argument or the full half hour?
How much is the chips?
How much is the chips?
Which famous opponent of
Which famous opponent of Cartesian dualism insists that there is no point of contact between the extended and the unextended?
I don't want used socialist
I don't want used socialist toilet tissue
Do you know the way to San
Do you know the way to San Jose?
Can you lend me a fiver?
Can you lend me a fiver?
factvalue wrote: Do you know
factvalue
Take a left turn, but watch out for the right deviationism
Am I secretly D.B. Cooper's
Am I secretly D.B. Cooper's estranged child?
Communist Research Cluster
Communist Research Cluster
You people... this threat is
You people... this threat is extremely tiresome, Someone comes with a serious question and all you folks are jabbering is bullshit and cynical comments.
It's rather depressing almost no-one takes the time to truly answer the question. Maybe it is because you have no proper answer? Rather then finding it a ridiculous question not worthy to answer properly...
What the heck is the
What the heck is the "Communist Research Cluster"?
EDIT: Nevha mind: https://communistresearchcluster.wordpress.com/?blogsub=confirming#subscribe-blog
Serge Forward wrote: Is this
Serge Forward
Always.
Yes, there is nothing wrong
Yes, there is nothing wrong with that here!