The Easter Uprising 1916

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Sleeper
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Mar 26 2016 17:11
The Easter Uprising 1916

II cant see anyone here posting about the centenary of the Easter uprising - 24th March 1916. Too much filth around and too many paranoid people doing their dirty work for them now. Thoughts?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Easter_Proclamation_...

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jef costello
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Mar 26 2016 19:21

I'm not sure it is any kind of priority for anyone on here as it hasn't got anything to do with anarchism nor communism.

Sleeper
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Mar 26 2016 19:37

You could be right it probably means far more to working class socialists than anyone here.

jef costello wrote:
I'm not sure it is any kind of priority for anyone on here as it hasn't got anything to do with anarchism nor communism.

and

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shug
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Mar 26 2016 21:03
Quote:
The Easter Uprising 1916
II cant see anyone here posting about the centenary of the Easter uprising

You could try scrolling down the page to Spikeymike's post. Judging by your last comment it would be useful if you read the links he posted.

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Alf
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Mar 27 2016 15:48

This is relevant...

http://en.internationalism.org/icconline/201603/13876/james-connolly-and...

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Mar 27 2016 17:22

There was an old discussion here ; http://libcom.org/forums/libcom-wobblies/iww-members-1916-rising-ireland about the ICC's article.

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Mar 27 2016 22:36

That link doesn't seem to work. I am not sure that old discussion is about the same article, because this is the first time we have put the James Connolly one, written in 1978, online. Perhaps the article in question is this one, published in 2006: http://en.internationalism.org/wr/292_1916_rising.html

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Red Marriott
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Mar 27 2016 23:46

Yers, you're right Alf, it's about that 'Sean O'Casey and the 1916 Easter Rising' article. Admins, why was that old thread I linked to above unpublished? I mean it has the flavour of the old libcom forums but you're not trying to airbrush history are you?

bastarx
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Mar 28 2016 11:07
Sleeper wrote:
II cant see anyone here posting about the centenary of the Easter uprising - 24th March 1916. Too much filth around and too many paranoid people doing their dirty work for them now. Thoughts?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Easter_Proclamation_...

One day soon one of these nationalist revolts must lead to communism right? If only the proletariat can discover the right national flag to rally behind.

Ireland, Algeria, Vietnam, Cambodia, Angola, Afghanistan, Kosovo, Rojava...

Spikymike
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Mar 28 2016 12:47

As shug mentioned see also links here: http://libcom.org/forums/ireland/failed1916-easter-rising-24032016

Re: Red's posts 6 and 8 I couldn't find that interesting, if controversial for some, article on Sean O'Casey either on this site or the ICC's. Perhaps it could be re-posted again especially given the establishments recent nauseas celebration of 'the Rising' and the re-staging of Casey's play 'The Plough and the Stars' at the Abbey Theatre which I hope to see.

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miles
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Mar 28 2016 14:50
Quote:
Re: Red's posts 6 and 8 I couldn't find that interesting, if controversial for some, article on Sean O'Casey either on this site or the ICC's. Perhaps it could be re-posted again especially given the establishments recent nauseas celebration of 'the Rising' and the re-staging of Casey's play 'The Plough and the Stars' at the Abbey Theatre which I hope to see.

Here it is...

Sean O'Casey

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jef costello
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Mar 28 2016 15:03
Red Marriott wrote:
Yers, you're right Alf, it's about that 'Sean O'Casey and the 1916 Easter Rising' article. Admins, why was that old thread I linked to above unpublished? I mean it has the flavour of the old libcom forums but you're not trying to airbrush history are you?

I think they pretty much unpublished everything at one point and older stuff was republished if they thought it was good or if people requested it. That might have only been some of the forums though.

Sleeper
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Mar 28 2016 17:52

I understand your frustration comrade, really I do. But we have to work with what we have not what we would like to have.

bastarx wrote:
Sleeper wrote:
II cant see anyone here posting about the centenary of the Easter uprising - 24th March 1916. Too much filth around and too many paranoid people doing their dirty work for them now. Thoughts?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Easter_Proclamation_...

One day soon one of these nationalist revolts must lead to communism right? If only the proletariat can discover the right national flag to rally behind.

Ireland, Algeria, Vietnam, Cambodia, Angola, Afghanistan, Kosovo, Rojava...

Sleeper
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Mar 28 2016 18:49

I don't see anyone replying to your party political views of the Easter Uprising, no one.

Spikymike wrote:
As shug mentioned see also links here: http://libcom.org/forums/ireland/failed1916-easter-rising-24032016

Re: Red's posts 6 and 8 I couldn't find that interesting, if controversial for some, article on Sean O'Casey either on this site or the ICC's. Perhaps it could be re-posted again especially given the establishments recent nauseas celebration of 'the Rising' and the re-staging of Casey's play 'The Plough and the Stars' at the Abbey Theatre which I hope to see.

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Reddebrek
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Mar 28 2016 19:11
Sleeper wrote:
You could be right it probably means far more to working class socialists than anyone here.

jef costello wrote:
I'm not sure it is any kind of priority for anyone on here as it hasn't got anything to do with anarchism nor communism.

and

You know one of the participants in the Easter rising was a countess right? And that the movement that arose from the ashes of the rising lined thousands of working class socialists up against the wall and burnt their families out of their homes.

I'm never going to understand this British lefty romanticism of Irish Nationalist gangs. A feature of impotence?

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Steven.
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Mar 28 2016 19:45
Red Marriott wrote:
Yers, you're right Alf, it's about that 'Sean O'Casey and the 1916 Easter Rising' article. Admins, why was that old thread I linked to above unpublished? I mean it has the flavour of the old libcom forums but you're not trying to airbrush history are you?

hi, Jef is right, a few years ago we mass unpublished loads of stuff, most of which breached the new posting guidelines. We tried to go through and omit useful threads but looks like this one must have slipped through the cracks, so it has now been re-published (you spot anything else like this will free to drop us a private message/e-mail and we can take a look and maybe re-publish)

ajjohnstone
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Mar 29 2016 04:23

Perhaps these articles penned by myself are of interest

http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/socialist-standard/2010s/2016/no-1339...

And the Sequel

http://socialismoryourmoneyback.blogspot.com/2016/03/the-free-state.html

Both adaptations of a longer piece from here

http://socialismoryourmoneyback.blogspot.com/2014/09/connollys-nationali...

Spikymike
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Mar 29 2016 12:15

Note that Red's link in their post no 6 which includes a discussion of the O'Casey article has now kindly been restored.

fidel gastro
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Mar 30 2016 10:11

Very good articles from the SPGB. There is kind of a link between the early Irish Republican movement and Anarchism though as Jack White, who drilled the Citizens Army during the Dublin Lock-out went on to become an Anarchist.

fidel gastro
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Mar 30 2016 10:11

Captain Jack White is a fascinating yet neglected figure in Irish history. Son of Field Marshal Sir George White V.C., he became a Boer war hero, and crucially was the first Commandant of the Irish Citizen Army. One of the few notable figures in Ireland to declare himself an anarchist, he led a remarkable life of action, and was a most unsystematic thinker. He knew Lord Kitchener, was a dinner companion of King Edward and the Kaiser, who corresponded with H.G. Wells, D.H. Lawrence and Tolstoy, and shared a platform with G.B. Shaw, Conan Doyle, Roger Casement and Alice Stopford Green. The founder of the Irish Citizen Army along with James Connolly, White marched (and argued) with James Larkin during the 1913 Lockout, worked with Sean O Casey, liaised with Constance Markievicz and socialised with most of the Irish activists and literati of the early twentieth century. A man who lived many lives, White was the ultimate outsider beset by divided loyalties with an alternative philosophy and an inability to conform.

White belonged to the Anglo-Irish landowning class. James Robert – always known as Jack, was born in Co Antrim, at Whitehall, Broughshane, just outside Ballymena. As a young man he followed his father into the British army, where he saw action against the Boers in South Africa.

It is said that at the battle of Doorknop he was one of the first to go over the top. Looking back he saw one 17 year old youth shivering with fright in the trench. An officer cried “shoot him”. White is said to have covered the officer with his pistol and replied “Do so and I’ll shoot you”. Not exactly the attitude wanted among the officer classes of the army!

Soon after this he dropped out of the army. Arriving back in Ireland he found Sir Edward Carson’s bigoted crusade against Home Rule was in full swing. This was the time when the original UVF was created to threaten war against the British government if Ireland was granted any measure of self-rule.

Jack organised one of the first Protestant meetings, in Ballymoney, to rally Protestant opinion against the Unionist Party and against what he described as its “bigotry and stagnation”, that associated Northern Protestants with conservatism. Another speaker at that meeting, and coming from the same sort of social background, was Sir Roger Casement.

As a result of the Ballymoney meeting Jack was invited to Dublin. Here he met James Connolly and was converted to socialism. Very impressed by the great struggle to win union recognition and resist the attacks of William Martin Murphy and his confederates, he offered his services to the ITGWU at Liberty Hall. He spoke on union platforms with such famous names as Francis Sheehy Skeffington, Big Bill Haywood of the Industrial Workers of the World, and James Connolly.

He put forward the idea of a workers militia to protect picket lines from assaults by both scabs and the blackguards of the Dublin Metropolitan Police. This proposal to create a Citizen Army, drilled by him, was enthusiastically accepted. Its very appearance, as White recollected, “put manners on the police”.

He later put his services at the disposal of the Volunteers, believing that a stand had to be taken against British rule by a large body of armed people. He went to Derry where there was a brigade of Volunteers who were largely ex-British Army like himself. But he was shaken by the sectarian attitudes he found. When he tried to reason with them and make the case for workers’ unity they dismissed his case as merely sticking up for his own, i.e. Protestants.

When Connolly was sentenced to death after the 1916 rising White rushed to South Wales and tried to bring the miners out on strike to save his life. For his attempts he was given three months imprisonment.

He came home to find himself in a political wilderness. The unionists regarded him as a Shinner. The nationalists regarded him as an Orangeman! He moved towards the newly founded Communist Party which, with the first reports from Russia, seemed offer hope to humanity. But he had his doubts about them and never joined. Indeed for a time in London he worked with Sylvia Pankhurst’s anti-parliamentary communist group, the Workers Socialist Federation.

In 1934 a special convention was held in Athlone which was attended by 200 former IRA volunteers together with a number of prominent socialists, Communists and trade unionists. It resolved that a Republican Congress be formed. This was a movement, based on workers and small farmers, that was well to the left of the IRA. White joined immediately and organised a Dublin branch composed solely of ex-British servicemen. One notable result of this was a contingent of British ex-servicemen marching behind the Congress banner through cheering crowds of Dubliners on a demonstration against war and poverty.

The Congress is best known for bringing 200 Belfast Protestant workers to the republican Wolfe Tone Commemoration that year and for the scandalous attack on them by Sean McBride’s IRA men who were determined that no ‘red’ banners would be seen at their Catholic day out in Bodenstown.

One of the men carrying the second banner – on which was embroidered James Connolly Club, Belfast – The United Irishmen of 1934 – was John Straney, a milk roundsman from loyalist Ballymacarret who was later killed while fighting Franco’s army at the Battle of the Ebro in 1939.

Congress later split between those who stood for class independence, those who fought only for the Workers Republic, and those – led by the Communists – who firstly wanted an alliance with Fianna Fail to reunite the country. After the bulk of the first group walked out (many of them demoralised and ending up in the Labour Party) White remained in the depleted organisation. But their reduced size did not reduce the hatred the rich had for them. In April 1936 the Congress contingent taking part in the annual Easter Commemoration was subjected to attack by blueshirt gangs all along the route.

The main target of the mob was White. Patrick Byrne, the joint secretary with Frank Ryan of the Congress, describes him as a “tall, well built man with a clipped army moustache” who “used his blackthorn stick to advantage in close encounters with his attackers”. Inside the cemetery he was badly injured by a blow of an iron cross ripped from a grave. Byrne and a young poet, Tom O’Brien, who also fought in Spain managed to get White away.

The outbreak of the Spanish Civil War saw General O’Duffy’s blueshirts sending a contingent to help Franco. The Communist Party and leading republicans organised the Connolly Column to fight the Spanish fascists. Incidentaly the Irish International Brigade was yet one more example of how Catholics and Protestants fought together in a common class cause. White was thrilled with the collectivisation in Spain, and also with the volunteer militias. He learned with amazement that this was the work of the anarchists.

In addition to his work with the Connolly Column at the front, he trained militia members in the use of firearms. He also trained women in the villages on the way to Saragossa in the use of pistol for defence. What he could not stomach was that the Irish, like all the International Brigadeers, were being increasingly manipulated by the Communist Party. He had never accepted the CP, he had just not seen an alternative. Now he saw that alternative and it was anarchism.

There was a clash between White and Frank Ryan, who accused White of being a ‘Trotskyite’ and a traitor. White relinquished his International Brigade command and offered his services to the anarchist CNT union. White was asked to work, with the legendary Emma Goldman, for the CNT in London. In the course of a few months in Spain he had become a convinced anarchist.

It was at this time that he wrote the pamphlet ‘The Meaning of Anarchism’. He joined the group producing Freedom (the anarchist paper – still published in London – whose founders included Peter Kropotkin), and was one of the organisers of the regular meetings at the National Trade Union Club against Italian fascism and in support of the Spanish anarchists.

At this time White worked with a Liverpool-Irish anarchist, Matt Kavanagh, on a survey of Irish labour history in relation to anarchism. In 1940 White died. His body was hardly cold when the family, ashamed of Jack’s revolutionary politics, destroyed all his papers, including a study of the Cork Harbour ‘soviet’ of 1921.

His importance lies not in what he wrote, for all that survives is one short pamphlet, nor in any particular position he took. His importance lies in the link he provides between Irish working class history of the past and our anarchist vision today. All through his life he tried to organise ordinary people to defend their own interests and to realise the power they had if only they would use it.

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Mar 30 2016 10:33

Some writings from Irish anarchists that mostly offer quite a different perspective

An anarchist look at the ideas of James Connolly - the single most important figure in the history of the Irish left
http://www.wsm.ie/c/james-connolly-history-irish-left-anarchism

1916, left republicanism, anarchism and class struggle
http://www.wsm.ie/c/1916-dublin-left-republicanism-anarchism-class

Nationalism, socialism and partition
http://www.wsm.ie/c/nationalism-socialism-partition-ireland

Sleeper
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Mar 30 2016 16:46

Yes and surely that is basic stuff. We know that some from each class will side with the other in a revolutionary situation. Now it's easy to suggest with hindsight the 1916 Uprising wasn't a revolutionary situation but those Irish people involved, and the English who brutally slaughtered them, certainly saw themselves in a revolutionary situation. As for your british lefty comment, I don't consider myself a lefty or a righty. But I'm interested in an Irish analysis of the events of 1916.

Reddebrek wrote:
Sleeper wrote:
You could be right it probably means far more to working class socialists than anyone here.

jef costello wrote:
I'm not sure it is any kind of priority for anyone on here as it hasn't got anything to do with anarchism nor communism.

and

You know one of the participants in the Easter rising was a countess right? And that the movement that arose from the ashes of the rising lined thousands of working class socialists up against the wall and burnt their families out of their homes.

I'm never going to understand this British lefty romanticism of Irish Nationalist gangs. A feature of impotence?

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Mar 30 2016 18:28

If you'd read some the links above you might've noted that it was "easy" for Sean O'Casey (and probably others) at the time to "suggest ... the 1916 Uprising wasn't a revolutionary situation". O'Casey's "Irish analysis"; http://libcom.org/library/story-irish-citizen-army-sean-ocasey

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Mar 30 2016 21:16
Sleeper wrote:
Yes and surely that is basic stuff.

Yes it is, which is why its so curious that you're having so much trouble with this.

Quote:
We know that some from each class will side with the other in a revolutionary situation.

Actually the history of Revolutions tells us the opposite, the only converts from the established class either renounce their connections before the uprising or are opportunists looking to prosper at the expense of their competitors.

The good Countess Markievicz was made minister for Labour in the first Irish Republic (1919-21) this was when the IRA starting siding with Irish businessmen and actively broke strikes and "illegal expropriations".

Quote:
Now it's easy to suggest with hindsight the 1916 Uprising wasn't a revolutionary situation but those Irish people involved, and the English who brutally slaughtered them, certainly saw themselves in a revolutionary situation.

Many contemporary Irish (including active Nationalist organisations and militias) didn't view it as a revolutionary situation but a stupid and reckless adventure which is why they didn't support it. And General Maxwell viewed the insurrection as a simple criminal mutiny, which is why he didn't see political fallout from martyring the captured insurrectionists.

You also mean the British Army, not English (you a Celtic revisionist, or just a guilt ridden liittle Englander Sleeper?), and most of the units deployed were Irish. Most of the fighting was between the Irish Brotherhood and Citizen Army vs the (Irish) Volunteer Corps the Royal Irish Constabulary, and the Royal Irish Regiment. Other Irish regiments like the Connaught

This "good Irish" vs "evil Brits" version of the oppression and exploitation of Ireland has been cooked up deliberately by Irish nationalists to portray a simplistic morally palatable version of Irish history in order to push National unity at the expense of Irish labour. Funnily enough this period of Irish history showed the deepest fraternal links between Irish and British workers, that's another thing you'll won't find in the Sinn Fein version of Irish history.

Quote:
As for your british lefty comment, I don't consider myself a lefty or a righty. But I'm interested in an Irish analysis of the events of 1916.

If the shoe fits wear it. And you've been given plenty of Irish perspective both contemporary and with hindsight. I'm giving you an Irish perspective right now.

Sleeper
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Mar 31 2016 16:01

I'm not having any problems with it, but never mind that eh. Well thank you kindly for educating a poor working class lad like myself about the 'history of Revolutions'

I said those involved at the time considered it a revolutionary situation. Actions and declarations of the time show this to be the case. I notice you haven't disputed this.

My interest, as always, is on the impact for the working class for any given situation. But thank you for your views and opinions

Reddebrek wrote:
Sleeper wrote:
Yes and surely that is basic stuff.

Yes it is, which is why its so curious that you're having so much trouble with this.

Quote:
We know that some from each class will side with the other in a revolutionary situation.

Actually the history of Revolutions tells us the opposite, the only converts from the established class either renounce their connections before the uprising or are opportunists looking to prosper at the expense of their competitors.

The good Countess Markievicz was made minister for Labour in the first Irish Republic (1919-21) this was when the IRA starting siding with Irish businessmen and actively broke strikes and "illegal expropriations".

Quote:
Now it's easy to suggest with hindsight the 1916 Uprising wasn't a revolutionary situation but those Irish people involved, and the English who brutally slaughtered them, certainly saw themselves in a revolutionary situation.

Many contemporary Irish (including active Nationalist organisations and militias) didn't view it as a revolutionary situation but a stupid and reckless adventure which is why they didn't support it. And General Maxwell viewed the insurrection as a simple criminal mutiny, which is why he didn't see political fallout from martyring the captured insurrectionists.

You also mean the British Army, not English (you a Celtic revisionist, or just a guilt ridden liittle Englander Sleeper?), and most of the units deployed were Irish. Most of the fighting was between the Irish Brotherhood and Citizen Army vs the (Irish) Volunteer Corps the Royal Irish Constabulary, and the Royal Irish Regiment. Other Irish regiments like the Connaught

This "good Irish" vs "evil Brits" version of the oppression and exploitation of Ireland has been cooked up deliberately by Irish nationalists to portray a simplistic morally palatable version of Irish history in order to push National unity at the expense of Irish labour. Funnily enough this period of Irish history showed the deepest fraternal links between Irish and British workers, that's another thing you'll won't find in the Sinn Fein version of Irish history.

Quote:
As for your british lefty comment, I don't consider myself a lefty or a righty. But I'm interested in an Irish analysis of the events of 1916.

If the shoe fits wear it. And you've been given plenty of Irish perspective both contemporary and with hindsight. I'm giving you an Irish perspective right now.

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Reddebrek
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Mar 31 2016 19:12
Sleeper wrote:
I'm not having any problems with it, but never mind that eh. Well thank you kindly for educating a poor working class lad like myself about the 'history of Revolutions'

Here's a free tip for you mate, never try this poor suffering prole routine with me again, its a stupid rhetorical trick and it really doesn't work when used against me in particular. I work 72 hours a week for minimum wage, before that I was a day labourer, and my family background is collection poachers, peasants (until the 1960's), (indentured) servants, builders, cobblers and even actual bogtrotters.

But even if I were a Castle Catholic descended from the clan battle leaders it doesn't fly because contrary to what you allege working class people aren't thick so your socio-economic background is no excuse for your poor analysis.

But if you really do think your reading of the `history of revolutions` is wrong and yours correct, then by all means provide some examples. Surely you should leap at the opportunity to enlighten a fellow poor working class lad like yourself?

Quote:
I said those involved at the time considered it a revolutionary situation. Actions and declarations of the time show this to be the case. I notice you haven't disputed this.

Err, no. I did actually dispute that, just because you haven't got a response doesn't mean it didn't happen. Unless you're now shifting the goalposts to the actual participants of Easter 1916, which you can't do because you brought the "English" into it.

Quote:
My interest, as always, is on the impact for the working class for any given situation. But thank you for your views and opinions

Yeah not buying it, you've been told repeatedly what the outcome of the Irish Nationalist movement was for the working class, and refused to engage or even acknowledge it.

Hell I wouldn't be surprised if you hadn't even bothered to read the proclamation of the Republican Brotherhood.

Sleeper
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Apr 9 2016 00:46

I've read and discussed practical stuff like this with people involved when you were just a twinkle in someone's eye.

Then and now my goal is the revolutionary overthrow of the state and capitalism by the working class and the creation of an anarchist society based on mutual aid and voluntary cooperation.

Don't ever try to tell me what I think, or what anyone other than yourself thinks...

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Reddebrek
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Apr 9 2016 03:07
Sleeper wrote:
I've read and discussed practical stuff like this with people involved when you were just a twinkle in someone's eye.

Then and now my goal is the revolutionary overthrow of the state and capitalism by the working class and the creation of an anarchist society based on mutual aid and voluntary cooperation.

Don't ever try to tell me what I think, or what anyone other than yourself thinks...

Well then I guess that makes your inability to understand even the basics of an anarchist society sad rather than funny.

But then again this isn't really true is it. You quite clearly haven't discussed any of this with anyone because if you had you would have some to say on the subject that actually had substance.

Sleeper
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Apr 9 2016 18:03

Ah look I see you can't put together an argument without abusing your opponent. This makes you look childlish. Perhaps you should just get back on your bmx and carry on cycling around that little middle class estate you were brought up on. After all there's no shame in organising in the community you were brought up in...

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Reddebrek
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Apr 9 2016 20:11
Sleeper wrote:
Ah look I see you can't put together an argument without abusing your opponent. This makes you look childlish. Perhaps you should just get back on your bmx and carry on cycling around that little middle class estate you were brought up on. After all there's no shame in organising in the community you were brought up in...

You know for a such an outspoken stalwart of the working class your arguments have a curious reliance on identity politics. And by reliance I mean that's the only card you've got.

Sleeper
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Apr 10 2016 21:16

Well yes they would because I identify myself correctly as working class.

[quote=Reddebrek
You know for a such an outspoken stalwart of the working class your arguments have a curious reliance on identity politics. And by reliance I mean that's the only card you've got.