"Burkini" ban

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elraval2
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Aug 12 2016 09:56
"Burkini" ban

Greetings,

Just read this on the BBC website. Just wondered what people think of this and other similar bans. My initial reaction was that it was completely absurd. I have my own criticisms of the burka and what it represents, however I feel people really should be able to wear (or not wear) whatever they damn want, especially on the beach.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37056742

Am I being PC?

Cheers,
el raval

Gulai Polye
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Aug 12 2016 13:22
elraval2 wrote:
I have my own criticisms of the burka and what it represents, however I feel people really should be able to wear (or not wear) whatever they damn want

If a clothing had the icon of a black swastika on a white background inside a red circle would you still think the same?

Or what about a KKK robe? I wouldnt feel safe if i walked down the road and suddenly round a corner came 50 people wearing a KKK robe walking towards me.

Anyway the thing about Burkas (and the likes) is that its not just straight forward. You can meet up 3 people wearing a burka all with 3 different backgrounds. Like one person could be a woman who are forced to wear the burka. A second woman could be wearing it from her own choice. A 3rd person could be a guy disguised as a muslim woman out to kill workers with a bomb or a loaded ak47 hidden under the burka.

One could say if burkas or similar clothing are normal clothing behaviour for woman then it should be observed that woman are wearing burkas where there are no muslim influence. (like in South America...?)

http://www.withthesetwohands.com.au/international-womens-day/
(Women from Ecuador on international womens day)

But this is not observed, so it can only mean that the burka is forced on them from outside of female influence. Which means those women who are wearing a burka purely out of their own choice belongs to a very small minority.

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Chilli Sauce
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Aug 12 2016 13:23

Wow, GP, start off with Godwin's Law and then jump right into some weird right-wing reactionary arguments. Well done.

radicalgraffiti
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Aug 12 2016 13:36

i agree with elraval2

what the ban is likely to achieve is stopping muslim women from going to the beach, which is probably the point

Gulai Polye
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Aug 12 2016 13:45

Or they are going to wake up to a new reality where they realise that their clothing is not a uniform. The burka is quite hypocritical phenomenon cause the women are only to wear it if there are males nearby. Which means they can drop it when there are only females nearby. Which means if they are dropping the burka then why wear it in the first place if they really dont want to wear it?

radicalgraffiti
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Aug 12 2016 14:22

you defend the market but not peoples right the wear whatever they want. and you apparently know better than muslim women what muslim women actual think.

also thats not a burka, its more like a hijab

radicalgraffiti
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Aug 12 2016 14:30

http://www.versobooks.com/blogs/1757-arundhati-roy-feminism-and-foundati...

Quote:
When, as happened recently in France, an attempt is made to coerce women out of the burka rather than creating a situation in which a woman can choose what she wishes to do, it’s not about liberating her but about unclothing her. It becomes an act of humiliation and cultural imperialism. Coercing a woman out of her burka is as bad as coercing her into one. It’s not about the burka. It’s about the coercion.

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Cooked
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Aug 12 2016 15:33

Oh no... another one
Gulai are you fucking kidding!?
All you've written on this thread is garbage. Can't even begin to set you straight.

elraval2
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Aug 12 2016 16:32

Gulai Polye: Or what about a KKK robe? I wouldnt feel safe if i walked down the road and suddenly round a corner came 50 people wearing a KKK robe walking towards me.

This, insane as it is, did make me laugh. Reminds me of when the cousin of an ex was telling me that she didn't have a problem with (male) homosexuals, "as long as they don't come over to my house, sit on my sofa and start kissing in front of my son" !

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Serge Forward
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Aug 12 2016 16:46
elraval2 wrote:
Reminds me of when the cousin of an ex was telling me that she didn't have a problem with (male) homosexuals, "as long as they don't come over to my house, sit on my sofa and start kissing in front of my son" !

Did you ask her if she had reason to think that male homosexuals were likely to do that? grin

Burkas are shit but GP's comments are shitter.

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jef costello
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Aug 12 2016 18:25

Ideally women would only wear the burka if they really wanted to avoid sunburn smile
As has been said, the burka in itself is a form of control, but banning it is another form of control.
And GP has gone nuts.

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Entdinglichung
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Aug 12 2016 20:14

clothes in general should be banned ... also cornflakes

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Auld-bod
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Aug 12 2016 20:23

“Ain’t no sin to take off your skin and dance around in your bones”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nlg46kIGm_Q

S. Artesian
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Aug 12 2016 20:53
Gulai Polye wrote:
elraval2 wrote:
I have my own criticisms of the burka and what it represents, however I feel people really should be able to wear (or not wear) whatever they damn want

If a clothing had the icon of a black swastika on a white background inside a red circle would you still think the same?

Or what about a KKK robe? I wouldnt feel safe if i walked down the road and suddenly round a corner came 50 people wearing a KKK robe walking towards me.

Anyway the thing about Burkas (and the likes) is that its not just straight forward. You can meet up 3 people wearing a burka all with 3 different backgrounds. Like one person could be a woman who are forced to wear the burka. A second woman could be wearing it from her own choice. A 3rd person could be a guy disguised as a muslim woman out to kill workers with a bomb or a loaded ak47 hidden under the burka.

One could say if burkas or similar clothing are normal clothing behaviour for woman then it should be observed that woman are wearing burkas where there are no muslim influence. (like in South America...?)

http://www.withthesetwohands.com.au/international-womens-day/
(Women from Ecuador on international womens day)

But this is not observed, so it can only mean that the burka is forced on them from outside of female influence. Which means those women who are wearing a burka purely out of their own choice belongs to a very small minority.

What nonsense-- anybody, everybody who wears a Klan robe is supporting a white supremacist terrorist organization. Anybody, everybody who wears a Nazi flag is announcing his/her support for genocide, fascism, and all the rest.

Wearing the hijab or a burka says nothing about a person's intent regarding terrorism, genocide, white supremacy, any of that stuff.

All this is, is one more attempt by the French govt to stigmatize Islamic women.

teh
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Aug 12 2016 22:21
elraval2 wrote:

Cheers,
el raval

Yea I too am curious about any historical texts/articles on the subject. My understanding is that social-democracy movements (of whatever stripe- red,pink) traditionally practiced rigorous de-veiling in mid-east, central asia, and europe. But whats left of the western left doesnt seem to hold this view at all.

radicalgraffiti wrote:
what the ban is likely to achieve is stopping muslim women from going to the beach, which is probably the point

The authorities want "Muslim"-origin people to convert to Secular Catholicism (which has little to do with the catholic religion). Ironically what they fetishise as French-way-of-life (political,economic,social) is the by-product of recent Americanisation of the country

Serge Forward wrote:
Burkas are shit but GP's comments are shitter.

radicalgraffiti wrote:
http://www.versobooks.com/blogs/1757-arundhati-roy-feminism-and-foundati...

Quote:
When, as happened recently in France, an attempt is made to coerce women out of the burka rather than creating a situation in which a woman can choose what she wishes to do, it’s not about liberating her but about unclothing her. It becomes an act of humiliation and cultural imperialism. Coercing a woman out of her burka is as bad as coercing her into one. It’s not about the burka. It’s about the coercion.

jef costello wrote:
Ideally women would only wear the burka if they really wanted to avoid sunburn smile
As has been said, the burka in itself is a form of control, but banning it is another form of control.
And GP has gone nuts.

If 'burkas' are bad, undesirable, and are a fetish representing controlling social relationships why would banning them be a problem? This seems like a right wing (classical liberal/US-syle "libertarian") argument about 'freedom of choice' in the democratic coercion free marketplace. But society isnt one of independent individuals making their choices but having those chioces imposed on them.
.

Gulai Polye
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Aug 12 2016 22:30
S. Artesian wrote:
Wearing the hijab or a burka says nothing about a person's intent regarding terrorism, genocide, white supremacy, any of that stuff.

I was referring to the point where OP said: "however I feel people really should be able to wear (or not wear) whatever they damn want".

Gulai Polye
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Aug 12 2016 22:37
radicalgraffiti wrote:
you defend the market but not peoples right the wear whatever they want. and you apparently know better than muslim women what muslim women actual think.

also thats not a burka, its more like a hijab

cactus9
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Aug 12 2016 23:00

Why is the quality of discussion about the burka and variations thereof/ responses to Islamic terrorism always so poor?

Also why are the voices of Muslims so rarely heard on this apart from demanding they dissociate themselves from fundamentalism and terrorism?

Does anyone know of any decent reading about this?

Edit - I should really read that Arundhati Roy book mentioned, it's on my list when I have a free month.

cactus9
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Aug 12 2016 23:31

My take on this, it's easy to dislike this ban on this side of the channel with GCHQ whirring away 24/7 and people under terrorism prevention orders (albeit it seems only one at present), the Muslim community not knowing who to trust in case their friend or neighbour is working for MI5, no attacks with mass casualties since 7/7 (think this is right), I imagine things feel very different in Nice, I don't know what the answer is.

cactus9
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Aug 12 2016 23:30

.

S. Artesian
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Aug 13 2016 02:19
Gulai Polye wrote:
S. Artesian wrote:
Wearing the hijab or a burka says nothing about a person's intent regarding terrorism, genocide, white supremacy, any of that stuff.

I was referring to the point where OP said: "however I feel people really should be able to wear (or not wear) whatever they damn want".

Sure you were:

Quote:
Anyway the thing about Burkas (and the likes) is that its not just straight forward. You can meet up 3 people wearing a burka all with 3 different backgrounds. Like one person could be a woman who are forced to wear the burka. A second woman could be wearing it from her own choice. A 3rd person could be a guy disguised as a muslim woman out to kill workers with a bomb or a loaded ak47 hidden under the burka.

Gulai Polye
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Aug 13 2016 05:43
Gulai Polye wrote:
radicalgraffiti wrote:
you defend the market but not peoples right the wear whatever they want. and you apparently know better than muslim women what muslim women actual think.

also thats not a burka, its more like a hijab

Oh now i get the point of the thread. Burkini has nothing to do with burka. It should be named Hijabini

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jesuithitsquad
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Aug 13 2016 06:44

Did I just up-vote an SA post? Four horsemen of the apocalypse...

cactus9
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Aug 13 2016 08:06

Actually I don't think that banning a swimming customer is thing to prevent terror.

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jef costello
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Aug 13 2016 08:30
teh wrote:

If 'burkas' are bad, undesirable, and are a fetish representing controlling social relationships why would banning them be a problem? This seems like a right wing (classical liberal/US-syle "libertarian") argument about 'freedom of choice' in the democratic coercion free marketplace. But society isnt one of independent individuals making their choices but having those chioces imposed on them.
.

I would argue that the role of trade unions is to pacift rather than to help the working class but I would see an attempt to ban them by the government as an attack on the working class. Banning something because it is dangerous/harmful (ie no one would still be using asbestos under communism) but currently allowed is not the same as banning something as part of a movement of control. As I said before the burka is not banned to help women, it is a move against Islam and while I see no reason to defend this,or any, religion I am not going to support a politicised attack on one, especially considering the anti-muslim climate that is being stoked in France.

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fingers malone
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Aug 13 2016 11:27
radicalgraffiti wrote:

what the ban is likely to achieve is stopping muslim women from going to the beach, which is probably the point

I agree with Radicalgraffiti and Jeff Costello.

This whole choice/no choice thing is much too simplistic, people make choices within loads of different impositions from outside themselves. I just chose to spend all my money on paying an electricity bill. No one put a gun to my head to do it, I could have just not paid it, then they would have cut off my electricity supply, so I 'chose' to pay the bill.

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fingers malone
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Aug 13 2016 12:18

Look, in my workplace some people wear niqabs. I don't like it but I would be totally against a ban. A niqab ban would mean that a lot of those women wouldn't be able to come to college, not that every single student would just take off the niqab and still come to college. Even if people did take off the niqab to come to college, yes I think some people don't like wearing it but do so because of family pressure and would probably feel relieved to take it off, but others would be really upset to take it off and would feel they were being forced to do something.

I feel the only way forward is for people to come to college, wearing niqab, hijab, stillettos, hot pants, saris, minis, combat trousers or whatever, and mix with all the other students and hopefully feel supported if they want to wear or not wear any of the above. If they want to wear something in defiance of their family strictures or other social pressures probably the biggest problem is other students snitching or tutting. As other students wear all sorts of things, a student might well also get support from friends if she wanted to change something about the way she dressed.

S. Artesian
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Aug 13 2016 13:58

Don't worry, jesuit. You'll get over it, I won't tell anybody, and I'm sure it's just a random event with no deeper significance.

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Chilli Sauce
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Aug 13 2016 16:15
Entdinglichung wrote:
clothes in general should be banned ... also cornflakes

Someone who's against clothes would be against cornflakes, wouldn't they...

Lots of good posts on this thread, btw.

potrokin
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Aug 14 2016 08:13

The burkini ban, like all other bans on types of clothing, is wrong, ridiculous and totalitarian. France's whole anti-terror strategy and the way they deal with muslims and 'muslim extremists' has been a disaster and now the UK is set to copy France's methods, which has radicalised muslims. I'm all for secularism but it's the wrong approach.
I think people are spot on here to say it's an attack on muslim women's rights, which it obviously is. Women and men and anyone should be allowed to wear whatever they want. I can't help but feel that women who want to wear the burkini should just cover themselves in something else at the beach, they shouldn't allow the french government to actually stop them going to the beach and I doubt they will. But , that it's come to this is ridiculous and it's not going to acheive anything other than piss off more muslims.

Gulai Polye
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Aug 14 2016 14:20
potrokin wrote:
The burkini ban, like all other bans on types of clothing, is wrong

Should it be allowed for everyone to wear a police uniform?