CNT proposes reorganization of IWA

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XaViER
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Apr 11 2016 20:56
militant-proletarian wrote:
No, you don't understand. The internal decisions of the CNT are just that: internal, even if you or whoever secretary likes or not. The IWA Secretary doesn't respect the CNT decisions because she is insulting the majority that decided in last CNT congress and is questioning its validity and taking position in favour of few small groups that are no longer in the CNT, some expelled because they didn't respect CNT decisions and some self-excluded.

Did she does it officially, did she does something against IWA statutes or congress decisions? No. CNT wants convoke their new "IWA" against statutes of proper IWA, because they couldn't find support for their proposals. CNT does not pay dues not ZSP.

Preparing split and breaking congress decisions of IWA IS real problem here, not personal opinion of someone on the internet.

As I said I consider that after their last congress CNT is effectively outside of IWA. And good luck to them I won't cry. Real question is who will join them? Will someone wants to be in one structure with unions which doesn't respect decisions of congresses of their organisation because they don't like it? If someone wants to be treated as a second-category member under dictatorship of one, true legendary union (or even three, two of them less legendary)... well.... I have nothing to add.

zaczek
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Apr 11 2016 20:53
militant-proletarian wrote:
Nobody wants to destroy anything. We have autonomy to choose if we want to work with you or not. If you like, nice, otherwise we follow our way with sections and unions that wants too.

You can create a new organization. But trying to hijack the old one against it's statutes is not only illegitimate, but will most likely fail. True, you will manage to waste a lot of our time.

melenas
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Apr 11 2016 22:31

Lets explain some things about about this "pay positions" of CNT.

Has CNT payed positions?

No, the statutes of CNT doesn't alloyed it. Art. 105

Has CNT a contract with a cooperative about some legal services?

Yes

Does CNT pay a shalari to the workers of that coop.?

No, CNT pay to the cooperative a cuantity base on the volume of work define in the contract.

Are in internet the salaries that receive the members of the coop.?

No, CNT pays to the coop. how the coop administrate the income they have is not a issue of CNT and CNT has no info about this.

How many workers have the coop.?

Im not sure, but the last time i spoke with one of the them were 6 people.

does the coop other works?

Yes, the coop a part of the contract with CNT attempt to other workers.

Very importat example that is a reference in spain: http://www.lapirenaicadigital.es/SITIO/SENTENCIATSJPAISVASCO21052015.htm...

Has CNT other contrats for other services?

Yes, some unions and regionals has a contract with a insurance company (this comes from the incident in Elda that i explain in other post). also has contracts with the wireless carrier to be provide of tlf lines and internet. other contracts are signed to cover some other needs.

Is this new?

No, a long the 106 years of CNT history, the union always had contracts with lawyers.

Does CNT changed his statutes to be able to contract lawyers?

No, the statutes didn't changed at all.

Had CNT any kind of contract before?

Yes, before was made the contract with the coop. had a contract with a lawyer.

Who define the strategy in a conflict?

The union, the lawyers only provide the info that they are asked. No lawyer or GTC has any power of decision or something similar.

Has consequences in CNT to accuse to other with out proves?

Yes, can be expelled.

melenas
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Apr 11 2016 22:06
Quote:
And now, we read that CNT, USI and FAU are supporting split of IWA, because we are reportedly so small that we shouldn't have the same voice as "legendary" CNT which have on paper a few thousands of members but doesn't pay dues to IWA and do not support properly our International for years?.

Where did you read that CNT support a split in IWA? Please tell me because i read the agreements of CNT and doesn't say any thing about it.

About the dues it was explained several times, if you don´t read the internal info of IWA do not came here to say the first thing that pass throw your mind.

Quote:
Most of us are not ideologues. If postal worker will ask me: why we should be in this new "IWA" instread our old proper IWA, where are also our friends who always supported us? In th "new IWA" we will pay dues, but will be pariahs, we will be supporting "new super shiny IWA", but only small section of this IWA 2.0 supported us?

What should I answer to my non-English speaking comprades? Because CNT has "legenary" initials but can't help us in our work to get stronger so we could defend ourselves better against fascist government and bosses? Or what? Maybe you should help me to prepare the answer, because I really don't know?

What i can explain to CNT workers when the secretary of IWA insult in a very hard way to CNT delegation in a congress? how I explain that in diferent congresses the CNT delegation is insulted (in Valencia congress people was clapping the hands when they listen the insults) by other sections delegates? what can i explain to CNT workers when the secretary send from the oficial IWA mail acount to CNT international mail acount lies about other sections internal process of taking decisions? what can i explain to CNt members when they see fotos of a expelled union that usurp CNT name and IWA name taking part in a IWA congress? How you want the members of CNT to react when they are called reformist.

Quote:
IWA secretary should respect only decisions of congresses of IWA not one section, CNT, ZSP or whichever. I am shocked that you don't understand this.

Not even that respect. she didnt provide any information as it was MANDATED by IWA congress to the vice-secretary of IWA. And had time to do it, but not even try to contact.

How you feel when someone from other section throw in a pablic forum lies about your section? Why you don´t recriminate this to Akai?

Quote:
And, she is here only as a private person. She is only secretary when makes official statements signed properly.

So because she write as private person is allowed to lie about other sections? doesn´t everybody know here that she is the secretary of IWA? She should or not be careful about this? how can I explain this to my comrades of my local union, that the secretary of IWA is writing lies about CNT when in CNT if you accuse someone with out proves you can be expelled? how can i explain to them that she can say what ever lie about CNT when ever because nothing is going to happen?

Quote:
And, for me CNT is now outside of the IWA. They don't pay dues, they want to split and destroy IWA. I will propose on my union meeting, that we should demand officially from secretary of IWA that she should defend IWA at all costs against those who want to destroy our International.

How I explain to CNT members that IWA sections doesn't give a shit about the economical problem of the union and we doesn't have any understand about the accident that had happen in Elda and the consequences of it?

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militant-proletarian
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Apr 11 2016 22:39
zaczek wrote:
militant-proletarian wrote:
The GTC is nothing more than a cooperative with people who knows what to do in complex cases or conflicts where workers legally need to watch their backs. It's a service if you like, and a job like that must be paid or do you work for free?[...]So yes we need people who know what to do, the same when you go to a doctor from whom you expect some knowledge about your body and health.

And how exactly is that different from mainstream unionism and mainstream associations?

I was going to answer you, but melenas has already explained it pretty clear. If you aren't able to distinguish a service from a decision body, you don't understand anything.

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Steven.
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Apr 11 2016 22:50
zaczek wrote:
militant-proletarian wrote:
The GTC is nothing more than a cooperative with people who knows what to do in complex cases or conflicts where workers legally need to watch their backs. It's a service if you like, and a job like that must be paid or do you work for free?[...]So yes we need people who know what to do, the same when you go to a doctor from whom you expect some knowledge about your body and health.

And how exactly is that different from mainstream unionism and mainstream associations?

Yeah, if you're seriously trying to argue that no "revolutionary" organisation should ever try to use legal means to help with disputes, then I don't think you're going to find many people to agree with you here. And TBH it's a completely different discussion, so you should start a new thread about that and stop derailing this discussion.

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robot
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Apr 12 2016 05:34

I do not know, if it is off-topic or derailing the discussion, but as you, XaViER, raised the topic just a few comments on it for you.

XaViER wrote:
And we particularly are disappointed by lack of support from some sections of IWA during our campaings. On the contrary, for example - FAU constantly is supporting financially and morally not so friendly union to us (Workers Initiative).

Maybe you just don't know it or you forgot about it, in march 2011 me and FAUist@s from several other locals picketed OTTO Workforce in solidarity with the campaign the ZSP has been involved there. Not in one, but in several ocasions. In february of the same year FAUist@s picketed OBI markets when the ZSP supported a struggle of workers at OBI Krakòw. We usually do solidarity pickets when he have a target for it here. Like informing Ford visteon workers in German factories onece the CNT had a conflict with that company in the Cadíz bay. Or picketing some 50 PLUS markets once a worker got kicked-off PLUS market at Sevilla. FAUist@s have been out for such action more than 30 times and in dozens of locations within the past 10 years.

Once there is no suitable target we usually inform the public about struggles and repression as a means of solidarity. If you just take a look a the FAU federal website you might notice, that we did this for quite a number of ZSP struggles within the past few years.

By the way, I really like to know how FAU is constantly supporting the IP financially. Every FAUist@ has access to the secretaries accounting reports and I can finding nothing about any constant financial support there. What I can find are occasional contacts between one of the bigger FAU locals and a local of the IP at Poznan. An there was a solidarity picket in Berlin for workers of the IP once those had an industrial conflict. We do this for other workers in unions that are not members of the IWA as well. And we do not make a secret out of such contacts and out of workers solidarity.

XaViER wrote:
We, here in Wroclaw have never experienced such a support from FAU as WI, and Wroclaw is closer to Dresden and Berlin than Warsaw! This is really a shame.

So you tried to get into contact with the Dresden FAU local union? And they told you that they do not want to meet with you and neither like to develop a mutual support and exchange of experiences? Or haven't you just tried yet because you think the FAU is full of nasty guys and girls that love the IP and hate everything that starts with a Z? That's not how things are working here. Contact the Dresden FAU syndicate and if you manage to meet them twice a year, this will be propably more of an interchange than any FAU local has with one of the IP in a year.

Just one last thing. Even if almost anyone in the FAU syndicates is not very amused with the attitude and maneuvers of the IWA secretariat, most of us are very well capable to distinguish between the secretariat and the organization it is a member of. I am pretty sure that many if not most within the FAU acknowledge that the ZSP compared to its affiliation is one of the most agile sections within the IWA. Our problem is not with the ZSP but with others.

As always my very personal opinion...

zaczek
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Apr 12 2016 06:18
melenas wrote:
Not even that respect. she didnt provide any information as it was MANDATED by IWA congress to the vice-secretary of IWA. And had time to do it, but not even try to contact.

How you feel when someone from other section throw in a pablic forum lies about your section? Why you don´t recriminate this to Akai?

This is ridiculous. The vicesecretariat is only there to replace the secretariat if it's unable to act. It has no other function. Why don't you respect the IWA statutes instead of inventing rules that don't exist?

Regarding respect at the Congress, give me a break. Your delegate (the one that you later found out was a thief) tried to interrupt everyone including me and even physically tore the microphone from my hands. Nobody reacted, but he should have been kicked out even before he stole thousands of euros in night clubs with your cnt credit card. I mean, you are talking seriously about financial problems? Well, don't let your delegates drink with your money! And no one will buy this petty lie that you couldn't afford the dues, seeing how much you splurge on congresses for useless gadgets. It was a deliberate boycott and the following events prove it.

zaczek
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Apr 12 2016 06:28
Steven. wrote:
Yeah, if you're seriously trying to argue that no "revolutionary" organisation should ever try to use legal means to help with disputes, then I don't think you're going to find many people to agree with you here. And TBH it's a completely different discussion, so you should start a new thread about that and stop derailing this discussion.

You didn't answer the question. And my argument is not against the occasional use of lawyers, but against professionalization and the centralization of competencies in a closed group of paid proffesionals inside the union. Criticisms that should be obvious for anyone who is not of the socialdemocratic persuasion.

XaViER
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Apr 12 2016 09:07
robot wrote:
Maybe you just don't know it or you forgot about it, in march 2011 me and FAUist@s from several other locals picketed OTTO Workforce in solidarity with the campaign the ZSP has been involved there.

Yes. There was a time in 2011 when you organised pickets, and there was impression that it can develop more in the future. I, personally, was in Berlin in 2011 and shared such hopes. But even then I asked there - why we don't have more such contacts, we sholud exchcange more information, especially between Wroclaw and Berlin. And I asked why there is more contacts between Berlin and Poznan IP than us. We are afterall in the same International, so we should help eachother on monthly basis. I proposed even jonit "task force", blog or mailing list, but it was ignored.

After 2011 contacts and suport were less and less frequent. At the same time for example you supported personally and financially IP in Wroclaw during Chung Hong affair which was lost miserably. Even if the conflict was around our city, there was no attempt to contact us here in the city to ask what we think about it (and we had some thoughts to share about it and why it was lost) and if we can do something about it together as members of one IWA.

Your love for IP is completely mistery to us. I don't remember if they supported you in your campaigns as much as we do. What did IP do to be worth of breaking congress decisions? Why don't you support also class conflicts of Solidarity or OPZZ unions if you are so open to cooperate in concrete struggles?

XaViER
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Apr 12 2016 14:00

And, of course I think decisions of CNT, FAU, and USI have been made to establish their own International (under pretext of "refounding" still functioning IWA) in an old trotskyite style to clone countless IV Internationals under any pretext, so there is no point to argue with them.

Question is, what others will do? Will they voluntarly join the new International and be deprived of their voices?

Situation strategically looks like this:

Before ZSP and now functioning secretariat of the IWA did start to act, there was only basic IWA www site in two languages. Now there is a www with lots of information and in many languages (even Chinese). There was even no fanpage on biggest social network in the world (Facebook). Our members put a lot of effort to propagate IWA and their principles around the world. This reportedly "worst" secretariat established contacts in Asia and more in East Europe. She was and is very active in propagating IWA in new countries. What old unions like USI did at the same time? Criticised secretary that she is making "vacation trips", even if she only fulfil congresses decisions. WTF? She is losing her job hours and personal time to propagate IWA, without full compensation, and she is accused of "vacation"? What kind of shitty politics is that?

Our impression is that old unions don't want IWA to grow. They are happy with state of the IWA as was before - half functioning, without joint campaigns, without any action internationally. They need only IWA to have fancy "AIT" initials to pretend to be part of international movement, which doesn't work in reality, and nothing more.

And, when the new International will start, yes, you will have three unions (and those who will join them now), but don't be surprised that no other organisation will join this new International in the future. Not on this conditions. And I think that the old unions perfectly know this, because they don't need IWA as functioning international with many sections around the world. They only need this to pretend on their national scene that they are a part of some kind international movement. But there will be no movement.

And last but not least - forget about East Europe. Your new "super IWA" will never be here established. No one will join it. If FAU thinks that IP will join it - forget it. There are too many socialdemocrats in it to allow it, and even now there is opposition to cooperate with you, because some of prominent members call you, citation, "a bunch of punks from Berlin", and propagate cooperation with other German unions. AND now they are cooperating with CGT in red and black coordination, and there is no chance to change it.

They are of course very happy about the situatuion in IWA and translated into Polish CNT statement and circulate it around people (with their own nasty comments of course), but don't expect more.

And in other countries in EE there is no chance for this new Int either. I hope that other sections from the West don't join this new International, because if they do, there would be like a new iron courtain again, which wolud be really sad.

As for organisations who will not accept this "new International". IWA still have potential to grow in other countries. Thanks to work of our secretariat we have stablished new contacts in Asia and other regions. If you want to be in alive, open to new initiatives and federal structure with unions that RESPECT congress decisions, stay with your good old IWA.

Anarchosindicalism is still needed internationally.

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armin.tamz
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Apr 12 2016 09:58
zaczek wrote:
Steven. wrote:
Yeah, if you're seriously trying to argue that no "revolutionary" organisation should ever try to use legal means to help with disputes, then I don't think you're going to find many people to agree with you here. And TBH it's a completely different discussion, so you should start a new thread about that and stop derailing this discussion.

You didn't answer the question. And my argument is not against the occasional use of lawyers, but against professionalization and the centralization of competencies in a closed group of paid proffesionals inside the union. Criticisms that should be obvious for anyone who is not of the socialdemocratic persuasion.

You just don't read what the comrades are telling you.

No, no and no. That "closed group" is a Cooperative of workers. That "inside the union" is NOT true. It is no a part of CNT, it is not organic. It's a Coop that gives services to the CNT as well as to other unions like ELA (Basque country) or worker groups.

And there is not centralization because every union inside the CNT is able to use the GTC or the lawyers they prefer.

zaczek
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Apr 12 2016 10:17
armin.tamz wrote:
No, no and no. That "closed group" is a Cooperative of workers. That "inside the union" is NOT true. It is no a part of CNT, it is not organic. It's a Coop that gives services to the CNT as well as to other unions like ELA (Basque country) or worker groups.

And there is not centralization because every union inside the CNT is able to use the GTC or the lawyers they prefer.

I bet if the "coop" decided to sue the CNT for employment contracts they would be recognized as CNT employees by the court. I have heard too much of this kind of argument "they are not our employees, it's an external company" from the bosses. I just didn't think I would have to hear it from the CNT.

And regarding why this is an important issue politically, do I really have to write how important it is for local unions to feel empowered on their own level without having to rely on a central service provider? And what it does to an organization structure when a central body takes over their struggles for them? You are saying they don't have to use it, but at the same time you are trying to force-feed this model on everyone and do everything to disrespect small sections acting autonomously.

mntg
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Apr 12 2016 10:20

I'm member of CNT and there are a lot of lies here, from my own comrades. The GTC was created by CNT, with people from CNT, in fact one of its members is the wife of the General Secretary of CNT. CNT is the only client of that "cooperative", CNT is the only one paying services from this cooperative. They've managed this topic trying to make believe that GTC is an independent corporation and that CNT has no control over it, but in the practice that's no true. GTC depends on CNT.

GTC is working on a lot of cases and most of them are not complicated cases and the syndicates could manage it without using the GTC services, but they are forced to pay the GTC. And the few complicated cases in which GTC is involved, are cases with most of the workers not being active on the fights.

CNT is approaching to become a services trade union, instead of being a militant trade union. Like CCOO and UGT, which are corporations getting profits of the fees of their affiliates and gives them lawyers and legal advice when they have a problem, solving their conflicts while the workers can keep watching TV on their couch. The only difference between some syndicates of CNT and CCOO/UGT, is that CNT is not taking part on syndical elections. But even this is questionable. In Sevilla, CNT participated on syndical elections on an undercover way, and in some of the "training studios" (Taller de formación) organised by CNT to teach the new militants what's the anarcosyndicalism, the speakers says them that it's a mistake not taking part of syndical elections.

Finally, about the numbers: CNT accuses other syndicates of being groups of few people which have not grew on several years, but they don't say that CNT was legalized over 40 years ago with over 200.000 affiliates, and now CNT has less than 4000 affiliates (and droping).

Yepa
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Apr 12 2016 10:58

Our problem is not with ZSP, many of us see you as a growing organization doing things decently right. If you are not 100 members yet, you will be soon. Any organization of less than 100, and that is a ridiculous number, should focus on growing, not in internal burocracy. Actually for a whole country I think the number should be bigger, but at least 100 is a start.
There is no excuses, if situation is hard in Rusia, Brazil, Slovakia... Them what? are they not revolucionary mass organizations? what kind of revolution will they do if they doen´t grow? should we forget about revolution? that´s counter revolutionary! if an small group doesn´t archive such an small growing as being 100... maybe they should step back, maybe another comrades will do better because we can have only 1 section per country so maybe they are preventing another groups of joining, that´s why there is a "friends of IWA" so you can get support without wasting time in internal debates or they should be just an IWA propaganda group trying to get bigger groups into IWA. It is such a problem focus on growing? it is really a power issue within IWA? groups of 10 friends can not understand the needs of bigger organizations... come on if they can´t understand even the needs of workers in their own country?

Our problem is with Laure, what kind of person did you put as General Secretary??? instead and promoting consensus and cooling down internal conflics from a neutral position, as it should be for an IWA secretary, she was putting gasoline into fire, and now look what is going on! 95% of IWA members are leaving, feeling mistreated and betrayed. For sure she did some things right, she could be a good IWA secretary if not for the internal debates, she takes a position, when she should be neutral... she filters internar section debates winding up even more IWA members... come on, she even writtes in a forum like libcom and get "provoked".... you will never see a CNT General Secretary making mistakes like that, I know some of them were posting in alasbarricadas, but they stopped right in the moment they were proposed for a responsablity position within CNT.

What are going to be the news of new IWA?? incredible growing of Australian section from 3 to 7??? come on! we are talking about the creation of a new correlation of forzes that can lead to make the sitiation better for a social change.
In CNT members are very disapointed, and you are not IWA Secretary just when you stamp.. you are IWA secretary everytime you do something public. And sorry to say but, public positions in organizations are fully open to critizism, some times in a fair way some times not so fair.
IWA secretary acted wirh an iron fist agains FAU, and FAU is several times bigger than all IWA together (without USI & CNT) and we are not nationalist, as members we don´t see countries, we see local unions. Then she took part in an internal conflic of 90% of CNT vs 10%.... hello! we are CNT we ALWAYS have nasty debates, we always had expelled unions, sometimes unions with 20.000 members were expelled, and later they come back or not... so best thing is leave internal debates of sections for them, and only follow oficial agreedments when they are final.
Our only problem with small groups is that instead of focusing in growing local they focus in international, auditing what other sections are doing.... do you know how many months CNT needs to get an agreedment about an IWA issue? how many "try to get consesus" and votings we have to do? from an original proposal of 3 pages we could finish 6 months latter with an agreedment that says "YES", three letters form an original proposal of 3 pages, and the biiger we grow the harder it gets.

CNT has taken a decision to start a process for a new IWA or whatever the new name will be, even if you can talk with every member and make them rethink what they decided it will be a process of 1 year till we get a new agreedment.

Yepa
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Apr 12 2016 11:07

mntg is a troll and a liar, he register himself in libcom just to do his job.

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Steven.
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Apr 12 2016 11:08
XaViER wrote:
Situation strategically looks like this:

Before ZSP and now functioning secretariat of the IWA didn't start to act, there was only basic IWA www site in two languages. Now there is a www with lots of information and in many languages (even Chinese). There was even no fanpage on biggest social network in the world (Facebook). Our members put a lot of effort to propagate IWA and their principles around the world.

This is very true. From the outside at least, the IWA appeared to be non-existent as an actual functioning organisation, however in recent years it has actually developed a profile as a working organisation.

zaczek
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Apr 12 2016 11:30
Yepa wrote:
Our problem is with Laure, what kind of person did you put as General Secretary??? instead and promoting consensus and cooling down internal conflics from a neutral position, as it should be for an IWA secretary, she was putting gasoline into fire, and now look what is going on! 95% of IWA members are leaving, feeling mistreated and betrayed.

Laure has been fulfilling her mandates, which has been confirmed by our organization and the IWA as a whole. Therefore any claim of "not fulfilling the mandate" is a personal opinion, and not an organic opinion of the entire IWA.

As has been said so many times, the FAU issue was actually started by the CNT and the CNT never changed it's mandate on the topic. I guess this was very inconvenient to admit, that's why the card-stealing delegate of CNT tried to prevent the showing of the recorded speech of the "Lion of Alhambra" at the Porto Congress. A recording that proved that this position of the CNT regarding FAU and the mandate of the Secretary really existed.

If Akai can be blamed for anything, it's for being too true to her mandate, which should have been executed years before by previous secretariats but wasn't, in order to avoid trouble. Well, guess what. Trouble brewed anyway and blew up in our faces. It's really lame to blame Laure for that, when the destructive actions are coming from the sections trying to engineer a split. A split that will hinder the development of the IWA for decades to come.

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Steven.
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Apr 12 2016 11:47
Yepa wrote:
mntg is a troll and a liar, he register himself in libcom just to do his job.

again please desist from personal abuse. If she/he has said something incorrect you can respond to it.

XaViER
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Apr 12 2016 11:50
Yepa wrote:
Our problem is not with ZSP, many of us see you as a growing organization doing things decently right. If you are not 100 members yet, you will be soon.

Don't worry, we exceeded your magical number and still growing. So we don't fight for ourselves, because we could be in your new "refounded International". We fight for principles, respect for congresses decisions and other sections.

Quote:
There is no excuses, if situation is hard in Rusia, Brazil, Slovakia... Them what? are they not revolucionary mass organizations? what kind of revolution will they do if they doen´t grow? should we forget about revolution? that´s counter revolutionary! if an small group doesn´t archive such an small growing as being 100...

This is really a very arrogant remark in situtation when CNT has lost 90 percent of membership since it's "new start" in seventies. After that, history of CNT is history of constant splits. And now they want to transfer this culture of splitting on international level.

And I have a question - what concrete help you provide to new sections? Not much. ZSP is helping more, with its rather limited resources, than CNT as a whole, not to speak USI. You coludn't even help to grow your sister organisation in France for decades.

And you have the nerve to teach us or small sections how to expand, when you in last 40 years lost almost whole your membership base and dissipated everything you had?

No jokes here please.

Arnt
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Apr 12 2016 16:54
robot wrote:
Just one last thing. Even if almost anyone in the FAU syndicates is not very amused with the attitude and maneuvers of the IWA secretariat, most of us are very well capable to distinguish between the secretariat and the organization it is a member of. I am pretty sure that many if not most within the FAU acknowledge that the ZSP compared to its affiliation is one of the most agile sections within the IWA. Our problem is not with the ZSP but with others.

I´m from CNT and I completely agree with your comment. Polish people should know, it is not an issue with your organization.

About the proposal to limit the vote to certain sections. Many in Spain are convinced that organizations covering the whole country and have less than 100 members, hardly can be called unions. The daily work of such a small organization is very different from that of a real union. No problem in listening to their opinion, but should focus on their own development and it will have time to vote when it grow up. I understand that the dynamics that occur in some of these small sections limit the development of the IWA. CNT tried in the past to change the voting system and got nothing. If we want to go further, we must overcome this blockade. As they can be, within the IWA. If not, we follow the road out.

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armin.tamz
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Apr 12 2016 17:50
zaczek wrote:
I bet if the "coop" decided to sue the CNT for employment contracts they would be recognized as CNT employees by the court. I have heard too much of this kind of argument "they are not our employees, it's an external company" from the bosses. I just didn't think I would have to hear it from the CNT.

And regarding why this is an important issue politically, do I really have to write how important it is for local unions to feel empowered on their own level without having to rely on a central service provider? And what it does to an organization structure when a central body takes over their struggles for them? You are saying they don't have to use it, but at the same time you are trying to force-feed this model on everyone and do everything to disrespect small sections acting autonomously.

Another time that seems you don't read what we are trying to explain.

The Coop doesn't works only for CNT. I know 100% that has worked for ELA (basque union) and for a few CCOO "secciones sindicales". So PLEASE, stop telling lies.

The 80% of the CNT wants the GTC, is a collective strategy, stop telling CNT what CNT has to do.

zaczek
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Apr 12 2016 18:54
Arnt wrote:
CNT tried in the past to change the voting system and got nothing. If we want to go further, we must overcome this blockade. As they can be, within the IWA. If not, we follow the road out.

You are free to quit the IWA and found another organization. What you cannot do (in a legitimate way) is to claim that binding organic decisions of the IWA do not apply to you, because you do not like them.

Of course, I realize that people are going to try to use the illegitimate way, break IWA congress decisions and make a split congress. The results will be of course disastrous: a bloodbath for CNT real-estate ownership in Spain and the AIT name. As far as I know, last time it was tried by the CGT, they lost the buildings and the name. Let's see how it goes this time.

One thing is for sure: you will blame our Secretary for it. It's a bit like the Polish Foreign Minister who likes to blame Poland's problems on cyclists and vegetarians.

melenas
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Apr 12 2016 18:57
zaczek wrote:

I bet if the "coop" decided to sue the CNT for employment contracts they would be recognized as CNT employees by the court. I have heard too much of this kind of argument "they are not our employees, it's an external company" from the bosses. I just didn't think I would have to hear it from the CNT.

And with this comment you prove that you don´t know any thing about workers rights.

Does the coop work in CNT building?

No, the have their own office pay by their own.

Does the coop. work only for CNT?

No, they have other contracts with other workers. Already i put a link about it and i can put more links.

Does the coop work with the CNT materials or properties?

No CNT do not borrow any property or what ever thing to the coop.

does CNT put the time tables of working to the coop.?

No

Does CNT give orders of how must to organizes the coop the work?

No

So no doesn't have any base the "Cesion ilegal de trabajadores" (i dont know the legal name in English) that you speak about.

If you want to continue laying about CNT because like this you feel better, all yours, we know perfectly what we do and what we don´t and we don´t have any thing to hide.

zaczek wrote:
And regarding why this is an important issue politically, do I really have to write how important it is for local unions to feel empowered on their own level without having to rely on a central service provider? And what it does to an organization structure when a central body takes over their struggles for them? You are saying they don't have to use it, but at the same time you are trying to force-feed this model on everyone and do everything to disrespect small sections acting autonomously.

And ones again you invent what ever you want about CNT, you don´t know any thing about CNT fights and how we manage them. you don´t know not even about workers rights as you prove in several comments, you are not even able to understand what people explain.

melenas
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Apr 12 2016 19:45
zaczek wrote:
melenas wrote:
Not even that respect. she didnt provide any information as it was MANDATED by IWA congress to the vice-secretary of IWA. And had time to do it, but not even try to contact.

How you feel when someone from other section throw in a pablic forum lies about your section? Why you don´t recriminate this to Akai?

This is ridiculous. The vicesecretariat is only there to replace the secretariat if it's unable to act. It has no other function. Why don't you respect the IWA statutes instead of inventing rules that don't exist?

Look like you donñy know why IWA has vice-secretariat. The reason of the vice'secretariat is that if there is any issue with the secretariat, the vice-secretariat can take the responsability and call for a extraordinary congress. this is because the issue during ASI mandate that leave the IWA in a total disorganization. now try to explain me how can a vice-secretariat make the mandate that has from the IWA if doesn't have access to the mail accounts and bank accounts? I tell you, no way, if happens again that the police take to prison the IWA secretariat what do IWA? Nice that what ever issue or accident is very difficult to happens, but sorry we toke an agreement to don´t play with luck.

zaczek wrote:
Regarding respect at the Congress, give me a break. Your delegate (the one that you later found out was a thief) tried to interrupt everyone including me and even physically tore the microphone from my hands. Nobody reacted, but he should have been kicked out even before he stole thousands of euros in night clubs with your cnt credit card. I mean, you are talking seriously about financial problems? Well, don't let your delegates drink with your money! And no one will buy this petty lie that you couldn't afford the dues, seeing how much you splurge on congresses for useless gadgets. It was a deliberate boycott and the following events prove it.

Nice you speak about this. Can be a good moent to speak about something and make a small comparative.

There was an issue that is very similar in CNT and IWA. After finish the mandate of both secretariats, was messing the supporting documents and invoices about the expenses. lets see how manage each organization this issue.

In IWA could not vote the economical report because was messing information and it wasn't provide to the sections. toke 6 years to be provide and had to be ZSP the ones that do it.

In CNT when changed the secretariat is discovered that was messing information, was made a first fast investigation and provide the info to the local union that support the secretariat.

IWA: when finally is provide the economical report to the sections the sections see that is messing several invoices. so there is a big amount of money that is not justified. the report is voted by the unions and it is approved.

CNT: the local union with this information makes a monograph assembly and expel the ex-general secretary of CNT and to the secretary of organization and the treasurer secretary is put a punish that doesn't let them to be choose for what ever position in CNT for 6 years. After this the info is provide to the unions and make it public. also start a process of investigation, analyze and there will be a monograph meeting about this issue.

IWA: no consequences a all. no money is give back.

CNT: the ex-general secretary give back an amount of money as deposit to cover all the money that is not justified. This money is keep by CNT till finish the investigation.

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La Ravachole
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Apr 12 2016 20:18

The behavior of The CNT - E is very disgraceful .Not just with IWA, but also against CNT itself. Why I said that?
Against IWA the CNT have done the following:
- CNTE did an economic boycott in 2011 to IWA when the treasurer of CNT with the decided to suspend the contribution. There was some unions that asking to hierarchy of CNT why that money is not paid. Nothing was replied. https://mega.nz/#!84kEWapa . That decision was taken by just by secretariat of CNT. It was authoritarian and hierarchical. Nowadays, that General Secretary of Secretariat of CNT is expelled of CNT and its Organization Secretary is disabled because both of them stole worker money for their own benefits. Total amount is more of 21.000 €, although that is without do the audit. https://mega.nz/#!1sMFXZiR https://mega.nz/#!pl9QwLyR.
- That economic boycott was repeated again in 2014 when the proposal of CNTE was rejected. CNTE said that need money because of big crisis is beaten to working class, while they are squandering its budget in GTC (Lawyer, false self-employment), in group of worker of FAL (Anselmo Lorenzo Foundation, false self – employment as well). As we can see, that is false. It is a strategy for economic strangling to IWA. That’s nauseating. In addition, in that moment, most of proposal to CNTE’s congress about how many euros have to pay are coincide in raise the total amount quote. That is a senselessness, if the militant are beaten by crisis, and they can’t pay IWA quote (0.73€), how they can pay more money to CNT (From 10€ to 12€, 15€, etc).
- The CNTE hide logo IWA of its activities. Some unions claim to secretariat of CNTE why AIT is hidden in their logo. It is other way to try to make not visible to IWA. https://mega.nz/#!o9cDkDSR May day poster https://mega.nz/#!clFTmJDZ
- The CNTE try destabilize to IWA. For that, they try to make economic strangled, hiden to IWA, and did a motion to censure to Secretariat of IWA. Secretariat of CNTE lost that motion. Put a woman as vice secretary of IWA, but like she could manage nothing, she gave up this position. That position is just representative. CNTE then, launch this attack against IWA.
- When IWA did a week of fighting, I think it was in 2014, CNTE preferred to participate with First of March European Movement, where is CGT, and other organization that belong to parallel International.
Against CNTE, the secretariat of CNTE or same union than support to permanent secretariat have done the following:
- They participated in syndical elections.
- Some Unions paid more quotes than they were really, so they have more votes than the rest (representative system vote).
- Some Unions have private police, and they can put penalties.
- The actual Secretary of Syndical Action is an employer. http://www.infocif.es/cargos-administrador/buenaventura-lebrija-sl
- The CNTE have false self-employed, so CNTE actually is an employer. The GTC (Lawyer) and group of worker of FAL, don’t have other activities than they do to CNTE. In addition, the wife or partner of Actual General Secretary belong to GTC.
- With the new permanent secretariat of CNT (Less than 1 years) there is an imbalance of more than 21.000€. Again, imbalance is present in our treasury, although this time, Permanent Secretariat of CNT lost the same amount in just one year than last secretariat permanent stole in four year. And yet, the union can’t access to account book. https://mega.nz/#!V110TBwJ
- The X CNTE Congress was a sham. https://mega.nz/#!Vt01BA5B https://mega.nz/#!FpdVgTIK https://mega.nz/#!Q10TTQpJ https://mega.nz/#!tgkkXARB In those document, we can see as a group of unions planned the congress before than it started.
- CNTE is divided. On the one hand are who support the hierarchy, the corruption or as they are called CNT Renovados or heterodox and on the another hand is who fight against any hierarchy, the corruption or orthodox. Beltrán Roca wrote about that, before that happened. https://mega.nz/#!ltNRnZLR (That’s in English). This man is the ideological boss of all of them. All unions that are critical with hierarchy in CNT are expelled of CNTE. 4 unions in Andalusia, 7 unions in Levant, 4 unions more in Galicia. Most of them are expelled in just one year. Other unions have decided to give up CNTE because that situation is unbreathable, like STSI, SOV of Murcia, among others. http://www.stsi-madrid.org/articulo/22-09-2015/nos-vamos-de-cnt-nos-vemo... // https://mega.nz/#!90EyDQKK
This is just a little part of normal operation of CNTE. It’s really a fraud. This is not a revolutionary organization that all libertarian people has in mind. It’s just a fraud. CNTE is actually kidnapped, and now, they go to attack to IWA

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La Ravachole
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Apr 12 2016 20:22

It's much of a coincidence that the same money is give up, is the same money that is imbalance.

melenas
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Apr 12 2016 20:44

Why you hide that the ex-general secretary give back the money?

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La Ravachole
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Apr 12 2016 20:55

Melenas, there are two inbalance. The first, it was when before permanent secretariat stole worker money. The second is now, with the new Treasury report. If you lost 21000€ first time plus you lost other 21.000€. You have lost 42000€. If it give back 21000€, the amount total that is imbalance is 21000€. Nothing is cover. You should read treasury report. I hide nothing. Your hair don't let you see clear

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La Ravachole
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Apr 12 2016 21:00

Becouse, that is false. First, the audit is not done. So you can't know how much money is stole. And he give back the same money that new imbalance. Much of coincidence.