Incels 101/derail

1 post / 0 new
Mike Harman
Offline
Joined: 7-02-06
May 1 2018 08:59
Incels 101/derail

Split from https://libcom.org/forums/general/incels-celebrate-recent-killing-spree-...

Sike wrote:
Noa Rodman wrote:
I suppose an argument (which no socialist would make) close to that would be, that these incels should swallow their pride and visit a brothel.

I think that any suggestion that the 'nice guys' pay for what the "chads" are getting for free would probably just risk insulting the already fragile ego of the incel identity. What the incel identity appears to want is women with supermodel looks to be throwing themselves at their feet and these incels are bitter and angry because that just isn't happening. For the incel identity the issue appears to be at least as much, if not more so, about stroking the ego than stroking the libido.

Noa Rodman wrote:
Sike wrote:
What the incel identity appears to want is women with supermodel looks to be throwing themselves at their feet and these incels are bitter and angry because that just isn't happening.

A bit of an exaggeration this I think (let's leave aside the esoterics of "incel identity", and just take an average misogynist single).

More realistically I think the expectation(/feeling of entitlement) is not to sex, but merely to receive attention, and of any kind of woman would do. So women don't (take initiative to) talk to these guys, or when the guys try to approach they're "ghosted", snubbed.

So about entitlement, if it is not even about sex, then you could still equally argue that nobody is entitled to receive attention from a woman or be engaged in a conversation either.

R Totale wrote:
Noa Rodman wrote:
A bit of an exaggeration this I think (let's leave aside the esoterics of "incel identity", and just take an average misogynist single).

I really don't want to encourage this stupid derail and really think your comments and all replies to them should be split off to a separate thread, but "the esoterics of incel identity" are precisely what's at issue if you have any interest at all in understanding events like the massacre being discussed in this thread. Would you insist on responding to a discussion of an islamist attack with "let's leave aside the esoterics of "islamist ideology", and just take an average person who dislikes US/UK policy", or to a white supremacist terror attack with "let's leave aside the esoterics of "white nationalist identity", and just take an average reactionary voter who believes in immigration control"?

Fleur wrote:
Noa, you clearly don't really know what Incels are or what their ideology is, so it might be of use to you to listen to those of us who do. Sike's comment is not an exaggeration, it's spot on.

And no, nobody is entitled to the attention of anyone who doesn't want to give it.

radicalgraffiti wrote:
Noa Rodman wrote:
Sike wrote:
What the incel identity appears to want is women with supermodel looks to be throwing themselves at their feet and these incels are bitter and angry because that just isn't happening.

A bit of an exaggeration this I think (let's leave aside the esoterics of "incel identity", and just take an average misogynist single).

More realistically I think the expectation(/feeling of entitlement) is not to sex, but merely to receive attention, and of any kind of woman would do. So women don't (take initiative to) talk to these guys, or when the guys try to approach they're "ghosted", snubbed.

So about entitlement, if it is not even about sex, then you could still equally argue that nobody is entitled to receive attention from a woman or be engaged in a conversation either.

read this https://twitter.com/linkshund/status/989101957066493952

https://twitter.com/chick_in_kiev/status/990235360209915905

https://twitter.com/MsBrendaBea/status/990297981873197056

https://twitter.com/priya_ebooks/status/989081072402092034

https://twitter.com/linkshund/status/982977930014937088

Noa Rodman wrote:
If you want to "die on the hill" for the claim that a key part of this ideology is that it wants women "with supermodel looks" to be "throwing themselves at their feet" and being bitter and angry because that isn't happening, then it seems the problem could be easily solved by convincing them to lower their standards a bit, i.e. you are underestimating the problem, hence why I broaden the scope to the more realistic expectation, which I think is to be found among an average misogynist single.

Quote:
And no, nobody is entitled to the attention of anyone who doesn't want to give it.

So is anyone who does feel entitled to attention/conversation then to be classified as a proper "incel ideologist" or is it just average misogyny?

R Totale wrote:
JFC. Why does anyone even bother. Do you think that "average misogynist singles" are carrying out or condoning random acts of terror? If not, perhaps there might be something distinctive about those specific men who do support these acts, as opposed to your average everyday sexists? If you can follow me this far, and you agree that it's worth trying to understand and oppose the specific ideology that motivates these mass killings, then you'll nearly have caught up to where everyone else was at the start of the thread.

Noa Rodman wrote:
Quote:
Do you think that "average misogynist singles" are carrying out or condoning random acts of terror? If not, perhaps there might be something distinctive about those specific men who do support these acts, as opposed to your average everyday sexists? If you can follow me this far,

The only distinctiveness you indicate is that an average misogynist doesn't carry out "random acts of terror" like the one in Toronto.

Quote:
and you agree that it's worth trying to understand and oppose the specific ideology that motivates these mass killings,

Are you sure you want to jump to the defense of the claim that the specificity of that ideology is that it wants women "with supermodel looks" to be "throwing themselves at their feet" and being bitter and angry because that isn't happening? Seems a bit of an exaggeration, like I said.