Forum thread for discussion and updates of the riots which have swept the UK, and which began in Tottenham, here:
Seeing photos on twitter of burning police cars and apparently 200 riot police sent out to deal with crowds.
Police shot and killed a guy called Mark Duggan earlier this week, more info here
Photos like and popping up on twitter...
admin: thread name changed from "Riot in Tottenham, London, in response to police killings?" as the riots spread
Posters on Twitter are saying
Posters on Twitter are saying that people are gathering at the police station. Still just rumours at this point, mind...
Quote: in response to police
Apparently, yes - if this very brief report is anything to go by:
I can't get Capital FM, but
I can't get Capital FM, but maybe you can:
Looting as well, apparently.
Looting as well, apparently.
Twitter rumour mill going a
Twitter rumour mill going a bit mental, people saying shots have been fired, cops have deserted after having too many rocks thrown at them etc etc. 5live had a bit of coverage.
Haringey solidarity group's twitter @_HSG_ says people are building barricades in the street
BBC has an interview with an
BBC has an interview with an eyewitness, who says the cops were scared and ran away from rioters chasing them.
5 Live saying it's quiet at
5 Live saying it's quiet at the moment, with a stand off between protesters and cops, twitter saying mounted units been seen on their way.
I have heard 200 riot police
I have heard 200 riot police from reliable source, seen the same pics as the rest of you, not sure about other numbers. Seen a picture that looks as if shop corner at bruce grove station is on fire.
Shops and a bus on fire.
Shops and a bus on fire.
In keeping with their
In keeping with their fine-tuned grasp of politics and current affairs an EDL linked facebook page claimed it's muslims rioting.
(link is to a screenshot).
EDL blame "the
EDL blame "the Muslims"...
Paul Lewis has been tweeting
Paul Lewis has been tweeting from the scene but he says he's getting out of there. In his words: 'It's getting a bit hairy now'.
Also they're saying that the fire brigade isn't being sent in 'for fear of being attacked'.
Fire brigade are putting out
Fire brigade are putting out the fire in the shop now, the bus and at least a couple cars are still on fire. I'm wwatching on sky news, I moved out today.
From twitter: Quote: Reliable
But who knows?
Saw about 5 police vans with
Saw about 5 police vans with what (squinting) looked like riot police thru the windows.. and a few police cars, blazing from stoke newington police station up stamford hill into (presumably) tottenham high road. This was about 45 minutes ago.
mons wrote: From
Doubtful, no pictures of it and all of the fires are hundreds of yards away with a thick lot of police in the way.
And then he apologized for
And then he apologized for his Islamaphobia. :)
It took a while...
And then he apologized for his Islamaphobia. :)
It took a while...
Regarding the original
Regarding the original incident on Thursday when the police killed Mark Duggan, the Evening Standard had an eyewitness who said Duggan was shot while lying on the floor:
There's also a Channel 4 interview with a friend of Duggan, talking about systematic police harrassment of Duggan and people from the same estate:
The police statements were
The police statements were pretty odd, they normally don't hesitate to slur people so the fact that they didn't immediately blame him for shooting a police officer (which turned out not to have happened) didn't sit right. Now they're talking about a bullet lodged in a radio and again not mentioning whose bullet and how it got there. The police are hiding something but it isn't clear what yet.
Quote: 7.35pm: Initial
Riots in Enfield now?
Riots in Enfield now?
888 wrote: Riots in Enfield
Just saw a young guy on bbc
Just saw a young guy on bbc news 24 say he saw anarchists coming to riot in tottenham.
gypsy wrote: Just saw a young
Does 'Anarchist' in this case translate to 'masked up individuals'?
Quote: Tottenham riots: Mob
no1 wrote: Regarding the
This link seems shut down:
Twitter's reporting that
Twitter's reporting that petrol bombs are being thrown at cars on the A10 while rioters are moving onto Ponders End.
Also seen the armoured personal carriers are out.
How far will this spread? Will it reach other cities?
EDIT: moving onto Bow!
Good link: http://thewestlondoner.wordpress.com/2011/08/07/breaking-new-riots-in-enfield/
EDIT 2: 17 year old stabbed in Enfield
Seems like two groups of, for
Seems like two groups of, for lack of a better term, fuckheads are conflicting now. Apparently, anyway.
I think this is what you
I think this is what you where linking to arminius
not sure why your link didn't work
Anyone got any news from the
Anyone got any news from the streets of Brixton, seeing quite a lot of reports on twitter. FITwatcher is tweeting some interesting stuff...
From the people who brought you Simon Harwood.
I worry about how the state
I worry about how the state will react to this, I can only see them use this as an excuse to use much more repressive, aggressive tactics.
I also think we shouldnt fall into the trap of seeing all this as only positive. I mean I think smashing up police shit and looting from big stores is fine but some of this seems to be just smashing up communities, with quite a few regular people's homes burned down.
Reading comments online from locals quite a few are very scared and really detest a lot of what is happening.
Sky news reporting it was
Sky news reporting it was Anarchists http://news.sky.com/home/uk-news/article/16045476
How on earth did he verify this?
D wrote: I also think we
I agree some of the stuff that is going on is just stupid and burning and breaking into other peoples houses shows a total disregard to other peoples welfare. Although I am not going to lose sleep over shops being looted.
In the video the reporter actually blames anarchists.
Just walked down to Brixton,
Just walked down to Brixton, looked messy, not on the scale of Tottenham though. Brixton Road and the tube station are both taped off, street looks completely wrecked, lots of smashed windows, people saying a lot of shops looted. Shops broken into on Coldharbour Lane as well, cops everywhere.
Talk of Catford and Bromley
Talk of Catford and Bromley tonight...I guess with 1 million unemployed, they can carry on midweek!
Can I just say, WRT this talk of closing youth centres etc. I remember when I was under 18, every 'young person' issue was either linked to - or alternatively 'resolved' by - "opening more youth centres". Are we really to assume that people are rioting over a lack of games of pool and under-18 discos?
I'd suggest some possible motivations are: endemic unemployment, anti-police sentiment, a violent environment and the desire to 'take liberties', inflation parallel to conspicuous consumption, a sense of competition between different postcodes, etc, etc. The flames have been fanned by Twitter, but most of the comments seem to be from spectators, many of whom are condemning it. The rioters themselves are (mostly!) savvy enough to stay away from it.
Bearing this in mind, rather than wringing our hands calling for more youth centres, we should talking about benefit issues and police brutality.
Caiman del Barrio
Caiman del Barrio
Its a combination of these things. Since there has been massive cuts in services for youngsters it is inevitable that some of the people involved in the riots would have been doing something else. Where I live a boxing club in a deprived area which deals with many children with behaviour problems has just had its funding cut and has had to close.
lol... Even so, I dunno.
Even so, I dunno. There seems to be a kinda root assumption that these 'kids' need to be controlled or restrained, 'otherwise they'll turn feral'.
If this is the start of the British Uprising, then I'd like to point out how loyal it was to national history. The attempt import of protest camps from hot countries has failed, the Brits will stick to violent street confrontation lol...
Quote: Kit Malthouse, Deputy
Nice to see the Police,
Nice to see the Police, Social workers, Politcians and Youth spokespeople have used the term 'anarchy' to describe the worst acts of violence.
Apparently one of the people looting Curry's was bellowing quotes from Emma Goldman and Kroptokin from inside...
Hackney now. And - apparently
Hackney now. And - apparently - all you Londoners have got to brace yourselves:
Apparently it's been
Apparently it's been confirmed that there was no gun fight at all before that dude was killed.
Also Caiman, fucking Cutty, what a sexy, sexy bastard.
All over the news, got sent
All over the news, got sent home early because it was meant to kick off at 4. Burning cars in Lewisham, burning shop and bus in Peckham. Definitely an element of postcode competition. Suspect this is going to end badly. Rumours of New Cross and Clapham going up, tho no idea if it is true.
Hearing that it's kicking off
Hearing that it's kicking off in Catford too. Rumours of the JD Sports being looted and the McDonalds being torched.
What the fuck is happening?
Reports and rumours of
Reports and rumours of looting/police confrontation in Birmingham now, perhaps it will expand beyond London as in '81.
Yeah Brum and Leeds are
Yeah Brum and Leeds are apparently about to kick off
ad birmingham: http://birminghamriots2011.tumblr.com/
Today's Evening Standard has
Today's Evening Standard has officially blamed "organised crime gangs and anarchists" for the escalating situation in Tottenham.
watch the fights:
I heard Ken Livingstone on
I heard Ken Livingstone on talkSHITE earlier blaming it on tory cuts, but that doesn't sit well with me. I get the impression that this was inevitable and Mark Duggan's murder was just the spark, Tories or Labour, cuts or no cuts.
Are the participants just going shopping or are they demanding that they be recognised using the only means possible, like those during the 2005 French riots, what?
Just trying to understand it all really...
Nice, turn the met into an american-style police force.. the dream of all 4 previous governments in power.
Then they can 'tightly control the youths', all they need to add to that is legalisation of firearms for all cops.
I'm conflicted about these
I'm conflicted about these riots. They obviously have social and economic causes... the media theme of 'mindless yobs' is too simplistic.
Yet I've heard a lot of people I know... members of my old community, who are scared, frightened and angry at these events.
I can't see how this is a positive thing for the British working classes.
why are they so quick with
why are they so quick with demolishing taht burnt out building in tottenham?! preparations for the olympic games?
Hit proper Sauf London too
Hit proper Sauf London too now, fires lit in Sutton in boutiques stores like ASDA and Matalan and shops looted in Clapham.
I have friends asking me if
I have friends asking me if I'm still an anarchist because of this. So fucking frustrating! they don't see this is a result of capitalism, it isn't anarchism. Fucks sake.
Auto wrote: I'm conflicted
It just shows how nihilistic many of the youth of today are. Being a 'youth of today', I see people around the town who just don't give a shit about anything. After spending their adolescence being antagonised, patronised, and having any true freedom restricted by parents and authority, it's hardly a surprise that when the chance springs up to do whatever they want, they take it.
This inhuman system of organising society attempts to beat the life out of youngsters through schooling and indocrinated parents, and most teenage rebellion is a reaction to this. Maybe it's about time we take responsibility for we are doing to the adolescents in this society instead of denouncing them as 'mindless thugs'.
Sadly, we live in a band aid society. The root of the problem is always ignored and these events will happen again and again until that root is tackled. Once again, politicians are showing themselves to be craven cretins who will as usual absolve themselves of any blame. Well fucking done.
I've seen a lot of my
I've seen a lot of my facebook friends referring to this as 'anarchy'. Calling for water cannon, the army. Saying 'where are the police?' 'where is the government?'
These riots will only serve to strengthen the state's hand, I think.
seems like its took a big
seems like its took a big turn for the worse
fires all over the place, random cars getting destroyed. people attacked
I hope it stops
In Lewisham a gang turned up
In Lewisham a gang turned up mob-handed at a pub and started robbing punters of mobile phones.
I'm sorry, but that's no fucking working-class heroics.
Now in birmingham too,
Now in birmingham too, reports of a primark being burnt, and looting
radicalgraffiti wrote: Now in
Yep been there this evening, widespread looting. On a positive note I saw these skateboarder lads attack and chase off this guy who was trying to rob an old man.
Auto wrote: In Lewisham a
It's possible this happened but wild rumours also spread in times like these...
People rob mobile phones
People rob mobile phones every day of the week (there were gangs and individuals nicking stuff in Parliament Square in December, ffs); same goes for other bad stuff going on - you don't need a riot for that. To want it to stop,as someone shitting his pants said, is to want it to not go further , to want it not to become more consistently against this society and those who defend it; but to want it to stop is to want young people not to go through their baptism of fire, to discover who are their true friends and true enemies; criticise, sure, distinguish between the stupid stuff that comes after 20 years of repressive counter-revolution in a society which has increasingly destroyed all sense of connection and solidarity at an unprecedented rate - but to want it to stop is to support the State.
Social contestation doesn't progress according to an Anarchist Instruction Manual, surprise surprise.
Guardian article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/08/looting-fuelled-by-social-exclusion
Just got in from work an
Just got in from work an hour or so ago. Police cars and fire engines everywhere. Spent some time checking out what's happening. It's not very nice in my area. Gangs of youths (boys and girls) from three estates (Fulham Ct, Clem Atlee and West Ken) wandering around in groups of up to 30 and attacking people - actually witnessed two Somali's getting attacked. Also randomly swinging punches at passers-by. Neighbours told me that earlier in the evening tourists from nearby hotels were systematically robbed (this I didnt witness). I observed local shop keepers, mainly Muslim from various backgrounds, standing guard over their shops with sticks and iron bars. After observing proceedings myself and two male friends headed home as we actually started to feel very unsafe. Not very nice. I live off North End Road in Fulham btw.
No problem with cop cars
No problem with cop cars being attacked, indifferent to shops being looted, but working-class people being burned out of their homes is fucking tragic.
However bad things get, you do not shit on your own class.
Liverpool now, Toxteth is
Liverpool now, Toxteth is burning apparently. No to make useless historical parallels but it really looks like it could be a 1981 moment.
Without wanting to patronise,
Without wanting to patronise, I think there are some pretty naive comments in this thread. Maybe it's down to some folk just being 'riot romantics' after watching things kick off in Greece, memories of the Poll Tax and other highly politicised street fighting.
But it takes all sorts to make a riot, and riots, by nature, are generally uncontrollable affairs. Those involved may be politically sussed, class conscious and are people who do the right thing... or they may involve political fuckwits who don't give a shit about anyone or anything. Obviously, riots can be progressive, revolutionary or reactionary. But in a cultural environment so depoliticised and purposely dumbed down as it is in the UK, then the chances of some people not acting like utter shits is probably going to be low.
That said, in spite of the negative elements, I'd still say these riots are largely positive because nothing makes the ruling class shit themselves more than when working class people start to smash shit up and go full fuckin mental.
The down side, however, is there's a good chance that those negative elements may just get a lot worse.
a.t. wrote: Liverpool now,
Yeah, I'm watching it out my back window. Lots of hoodies milling about, police chopper overhead. A few friends have been evacuated about a mile away, cars set on fire.
I've heard about informal
I've heard about informal Turkish & Asian community defence squads forming around Green Lanes and Dalston.
yes, i think we should be
yes, i think we should be careful not to belly ache when 'the people' don't kick a fuss in the ways our left-wing schemas say they should.
If another anti cuts demo was
If another anti cuts demo was to be suggested or organised soon would there be any chance it could direct, even slowly, more of this energy and anger towards a progressive cause and not on the average person?
Judging from my facebook
Judging from my facebook neswfeed at least (needless to say hardly that meaningful) the reaction has been pretty much uniformly negative, many of these who are now shit-talking the rioters are people who supported the student protests, even when they got violent, last year. Hearing a lot of talk about 'chavs' and support for the army being sent in(!).
Your student friends who are
Your student friends who are condemning these guys are doing it because they are 'chavs', 'criminals' and 'thugs' right. Brilliant. The debate is so circular 'they are criminals and thugs because they are criminals and thugs'.
When have we ever allowed twitter and facebook feeds colour our analysis! What we are seeing now is what we see every time there is social unrest.
I can't believe how wishy
I can't believe how wishy washy some of you so-called anarchists are, tho not all or most of course. what do you think revolution looks like? all nice and politically correct of course. This anger is the real (as opposed to those who think they are) working class, which has had no industrial employment since the Thatcher era, and no where else to go because we are not generally smart or educated enough to become white collar, and now they take away the placebo of benefits, what else would happen? of course it doesn't look nice, I have had no hope my whole life and i don't give a shit if they start torching women and children, fuck yeah, let it burn baby burn. get real!
So is there another the wider
So is there another the wider anarchist movement can even do? A counter-esuq protest to redirect.. ANYTHING?
jonathan cottam wrote: , I
Was it Bakunin or Malatesta who said that gem?
I'm not saying it should
I'm not saying it should 'colour our analysis', just noting one particular trend, partly in response to Baronarchist's idea of fusing the riots with the anti-cuts movement and showing just one instance of a gulf between people involved in the anti-cuts movement and the rioters. I thought my disclaimer would be enough to show that it wasn't really an important point.
Stokes Croft, Bristol at it
Stokes Croft, Bristol at it now apparently, for the second time this year
I wouldn't be surprised if
I wouldn't be surprised if some of the anti-social attacks are simply complete fabrications by the cops/media. If this continues it also wouldn't be out of the question for the cops to do some of these things themselves or pay their fascist/criminal mates to do so if they haven't already.
Baronarchist wrote: So is
Exactly. I'm new to this, and undoubtedly naive, but it seems like there should be something we can do to help or contribute? Clean up crews in working class neighbourhoods? A chance for red and black flags to appear in contrast to the violence and destruction of capitalism? Just feels so useless to watch and do nothing (even if that may be the best thing to do?)
There have been reports that
There have been reports that rioting has broken out in Bolton, it's been estimated that £200,000 worth of improvements have been made to the town centre! :p
neutral wrote: Baronarchist
Um maybe join in with the prole revolt. Let the council workers get the overtime pay for the clean up and leave the brand positioning to ad agencies.
Samotnaf wrote: People rob
is that meant to be some kind of dig at me? What do you want macho points or something?
I said I want it stop because its seemed to turn worse (as in more smahing up of communities and regular people) and its making a lot of people really scared. There are lots of the things the state tries to stop which I also want to stop - like child abuse, domestic violence etc Does that mean I'm lining up with the state in these cases too?
Every political sect is in an
Every political sect is in an ecstasy of narrative pushing. Polish far-right news is opining on its front pages that the riots are a result of the multiracial construction of North London; Telegraph Tories are telling us it's a result of the liberalized and ineffective police service, teachers not being allowed to thrash pupils, bring back national service, smash the wogs etc; and the left is saying that it's a result of social dislocation and Tory cuts. I haven't heard a convincing argument for any of these analyses yet.
BBC News reporting that the proletarian class-rioters have stormed the Bastille of North London -- The Sony Distribution Centre in Enfield -- and liberated 250 workers from their jobs. They'll be signing on at their local jobcentre tomorrow provided it hasn't also been burned down.
Another article on the riots:
Another article on the riots: http://hanariaz.com/2011/08/07/contextualizing-violence-tottenham-riots/
Bristol. D: Quote: Quote: Sa
Making a comparison with child abuse and domestic violence is doing the same thing as the media/the State: riots, as others here have said, are contradictory, but all you've done is reduce support for the riots as "scoring macho points", which is the kind of leftist/feminist ideological crap that used to be thrown at anyone who supported riots (some called the riots of miners during the '84-85 strike "macho" as well), and you use it to avoid my main point:
Horrible though some of these mad "nihilist" (for want of a better word) type things are, as I (and others) said , these things happen outside of riots as well - and they sure as hell will increasingly happen without riots. To want them to stop is to side with the forces that prevent any (inevitably uneven) progress towards an attack on this futureless society.
Instead of asking, as all the
Instead of asking, as all the forces of this society ask in order to maintain their ideological grip on the minds of the masses and to work out ways of maintaining their real hold on miserable social relations, why the riots have happened, we should be asking why they haven't happened in the past and what stops them going further and improving on their quality (which latter, some people are asking here).
Riots are nasty stuff. I know
Riots are nasty stuff. I know ya'll ain't really had them over there in a while (at least on that scale and intensity), so yall might think of them in an idealized form, but the Watts Riots were ugly. The Detroit riots were ugly. The LA riots were ugly. And so on.
The content of them can be something revolutionaries find favorable, such as fighting back against the police, or at least, understandable, such as the burning of stores, factories and places of work. But it's also a time to settle scores that have nothing to do with the state and capital. It's a time when 'anti-social' crimes that happen everyday are magnified because of the situation.
There's a video circulating Twitter showing a man who was beat up. A group of people pretend to help him up, and then steal the items from his backpack. There are similar incidents that are happening all across the Western world, in every American city, right now. About 15 blocks away, on a Monday night, there are probably drunken college kids doing the same thing. Yesterday, a 17 year old was shot twice in the chest while riding his bike on the street I'm painting a house on. Last night, a homeless just trying to get some change from people so he could ride the bus downtown was detained by the police for pretty much no reason, right as I exited a bar. This is the violence of everyday life.
I can understand the riots. I can understand being unemployed for long stretches, moving from apartment to apartment, trying to avoid homeless. You try to keep your head up, despite wondering how you're gonna keep your phone on, put money on your bus pass, get pants with no holes in them, etc but at a certain point you wanna unleash everything you have at everyone and everything, and you don't care about the consequences to yourself or others, because you don't give a fuck.
The arrogant, clueless suburban bitch riding in an Escalade? You wanna see that woman carjacked. The mean mugging muthafucka with the fake chain on the bus? You wanna pistol whip the scowl off that bitch, snatch his chain and make him apologize. The cop following you in a corner store in an area of the city you don't look like you belong in? You hope his vest fails tonight and he catches two in the chest.
Poverty is absolute poison. It can make you do and think stuff you would never do in a different situation. It makes you ungrateful and even spiteful to the very people trying to help you. People that you care about. Well meaning state workers. Your own family. It makes you wish that your experience was generalized across the population, and a riot, however limited, however ultimately counterproductive, seems like a good bet to accomplish that.
you have completely misunderstood my post.
I asked if you wanted macho points for saying 'someone shitting his pants' (in reference to me) not for supporting the riots. Saying that is just a snide comment which I expect from people who think being tough is what you should judge a person on.
I also wasn't trying to compare the riots to child abuse/domestic violence. just that wanting something to stop that the satte also wants to stop does not equal support for the state. Also an attack on this society is not always inherently good. Facsim attacks this society but leads it in an even worse direction. Thats not to say thats what this riot is neccearrily doing but its wrong IMO to look at any working class rebellion against the existing order as progressive.
I think this riot has had some good points, like communities showing they wont take police brutality and lots of people geting free shit. But setting fires and smashing cars and homes is nothing but bad. Most people in the areas where this is happening seem to me to want it to end
Peter wrote: neutral
Lol! Spot on Peter.
Anarchists sending in clean up crews after the riots are over? I reckon get yerself and yr mates together, get a shopping trolley or backpack or something, and join in with the mass proletarian shopping expedition. Take for yourself what you need. Maybe try and spread the looting and riots to new areas if it all possible and practical. Far from me to suggest it, but why not rip up the City of London? Or a big shopping mall or something? Or since the coppers are way overstretched maybe someone could burn down that bloody silly and awful tourist ferris wheel thingy that is besides the Thames? (only joking) (of course)
holy shit, I am going to quote the Situationists:
That's what many proles in the UK are now doing. Tho of course the SI's analyis is limited eg. the distinction between "real" and "false" desires, and "real" and "false" needs.
While looting shouldn't be glorified, as it's clearly a limited form of class-based self-organisation. To state the obvious, rioting is a temporary and spontaneous rampage, a venting of anger, that doesn't offer constructive alternatives. Looting fixes responsibility on the retailer rather than the producer, and is thus limited to the realm of consumption. However, the SI do make a case that looting is a distorted example of communist distribution in action, in that people were taking freely from stores according to their needs.
Sure these riots are messy, violent, contradictory, and contain nihilist tendencies, and working class people beating up and stealing from each other. But don't forget prole shopping is a partial overcoming of the commodity form, and overcoming that form necessarily involves negating it, including mass destruction and looting....
Interesting enough article in
Interesting enough article in the Graun:
The rumour mill is saying there were some antics in Manchester last night, with cars being burnt in the south of the city. I should know better later on today.
Samotnaf wrote: People rob
insults aside this is pretty much spot for on, i mean for example strikes aren't 'nice' they're messy as fuck, look at the miners strike instance or imagine what an education strike throughut the gcse's would be like, hell even j30 involved having solidarity with people in the pcs who we might not like
Like samotnaf says we need to pick out the good and criticse the bad, i increasingly think this needs amore physical response, in terms of street meetings by anarchists and anti-cuts groups.
Quote: I can't believe how
Probably it looks like this. However that's not to say that people with progressive politics should cheerlead burning innocent workers out of their homes because "it's just what happens." Surely part of the point of being political is to draw the line at what hurts your own class and try and influence people not to just burn shit at random?
And if we don't, then who do you think the people burned out, their friends and family and the people just like them who weren't rioting and have gotten scared will turn to? Fuck me try "collateral is gonna happen" with them and see how far it gets you...
Some of my thoughts on the
Some of my thoughts on the riots I wrote up elsewhere:
Also, has no one evoked this yet? http://youtu.be/9AlH2oYedfk
Not everyone is feeling
Not everyone is feeling increased support for the police, it seems. From the Guardian Liveblog:
Quote: I've heard about
Yes, this has been given a rather large coverage in the Turkish media. These people are mostly shopkeepers against the protests, I presume?
Despite the looting and the
Despite the looting and the problems ahead coming from the inhuman rebelion against an inhuman society, this should be considered:
Os Cangaceiros, 1985
Malva wrote: Also, has no
Funnily enough, we had just left the Morrissey gig in Brixton Acadamy when it was just starting to kick off. During the gig he went on a rant about the student riots, something along the lines of this:
"I never watch the telly. But this year there was something I couldn't stop watching. The student riots. I saw the kids finally have enough. And Camel and Charles? What happened to them made me laugh for weeks and weeks and weeks." He then followed it up by saying, "Has David Cameron ever been to Tottenham?"
This got huge cheers.
All day during Brixton Splash (Reggae/Dub festival) you could tell it would kick off. It was a friendly atmosphere, but a few words were being said to the Police every now and again. After the Morrissey gig, there didn't seem much police around, just a couple of riot vans near the Coldharbour Lane/Brixton Hill junction. We had a pint in the Hootenanny, then around midnight the selector said, "there's a riot outside people, stay in here". So of course everyone pretty much left to check out what was going on. Next door people were literally walking into Halfords and riding out. But again, not much police around, considering. Currys was done it too, and looted. But we never felt unsafe. One person said people were getting so confident they were actually trying on shoes in Foot Locker before they nicked them!
It's been a strange atmosphere here since then. Last night was quite eerie. I finished work and cycled past numerous gangs of kids marching around the backstreets of Brixton Hill, it was like something out of a film. People (I saw a few old-boys too) were joining them from their homes. I didn't feel unsafe, but I can understand why some people would. My house mate had just come back from Croydon, and he said there were kids on he bus really charged up.
There had been grafitti and smashing during the day too (Tescos near New Park Road got hit quite bad). All the major shops have been boarded up in Brixton and Streatham.
Here at least, I haven't seen any destruction of private property and houses that we've been seeing on the news in other places.
I'm going to go for a little ride now around town, and maybe into Clapham too see what's going on.
Maybe when the rioters who
Maybe when the rioters who are looting the shops start dumping the I-pods and the I-phones in Thames i will start thinking there might be a revolution going on.
Maybe when they ransack Tescos and steal the food to re-distribute the old and the sick, the poor and needy will i start thinking they represent a true community spirit and not just the individualism spawned by years of Thatcher and Blair, and copy-catting the greed and theft of the bankers.
Bristol Council is blaming
Bristol Council is blaming small numbers of anarchists for the looting and violence in Bristol last night!
Quote: Maybe when the rioters
Nobody thinks this is a revolution but it is an outpouring of resentment that challenges much of the dominant political discourse in the UK since the eighties. People are radicalised against the contemporary system and that opens up a space for radical ideas such as anarchism to become a material force. I think that is what we should working on. Though I say 'we' I am not in the UK but after Millbank and now this I wish I was. Whatever the rights or wrongs of what is happening this is people making their own history. The violence is not surprising given the violence this society encourages and practices everyday. (I would also point out that appropriating technology is probably more constructive than throwing it in the Thames).
Quote: Funnily enough, we had
That dude is a true poet! We need a revival of the radical spirit of the music in the late 70s and 80s.
the future looks bright
the future looks bright considering increased surveillance, the coming recession and unaffordable education.
I hope these youths stay that radical and don't obey, and hopefully soon they'll realise that a plasma tv (or the little money made by selling it) doesn't change anything about their situation. and hopefully there are enough of them, so they can't be all locked away (apparently, london's prisons are full).
Looks like Bristol rioters are a bit more on target if this article is anything to go by haha.
I'm 17 now, poor and felt the
I'm 17 now, poor and felt the same way as I assume they did for a long time and it's easy to become counter-productive in those situations. I suppose even if actual knowledge of a movement aiming to better these circumstances can get through, it'll curb the nihilistic tendencies and focus them on genuine problems. With the student protests/unrest and now this we could have a revolutionary potential to a degree.
Worked with me anyway.
Quote: Maybe when the rioters
that is a simplistic view about riots and revolution.
as has been said, theses things are contradictory as is actual society.
sure a riot is not a revolution, but a revolution implies that property is attacked and it is attacked in a riot. so it makes it also a positive experience for people inolved in it. it makes people experience a time when the bourgeoisie hold on society is contested. and that's a good thing. that's what we need to show to people about riots. a revolution may start like a riot but goes on from contesting the actual rules to establishing new ones and new relations between people.
There's talk of vigilante
There's talk of vigilante groups being set up tonight to defend communities against looters.
This could all go very bad...
This has been posted today in
This has been posted today in a spanish paper (excuse the google translation):
Phenomenology of angry
Phenomenology of angry nihilism
Anger is the expression of strength that has been repressed for too long, offended and abused, the anger of those who suddenly understand that they are 'too young to go rotten'. Its primary manifestation opens up a horizon characterised by universal destruction. As you are in a blind rage you look around you searching for something to destroy, to hurl at a wall or to break with your own hands; the body is felt to be a damaging instrument. Anything can be destroyed! Anger, therefore, manifests itself as a nihilist horizon. As they can desire nothing for themselves, these second-class lives decide to desire that this nothing be realized (as nothing).
But nihilism, this disturbing guest, presents itself in different forms. The less evident is the most widespread, but it is also the most popular: it is the subtle nihilism of the authoritarian management of the existent that pervades everything. It annihilates life and takes away its strength in order to lead it to the preformed structures of order and discipline, production and consumerism, resignation and cynicism. The current social system is nihilist and the citizens who submit to it are also unconsciously nihilist as they accept various forms of voluntary slavery and drag their lives on without passion every day. As they have absorbed the lesson of economy and the imaginary of the value of consumables, their life is based on calculations of costs and benefits, on the separation between means and ends and on resignation to the current misery in the illusory hope that it will be better tomorrow. The nihilist operation of dominion articulates itself in two complementary movements: on the one hand it despoils, alienates and robs, on the other it dresses up, creates illusions and blinds people. But the emptiness upon which this twofold operation stands and finds its substance becomes evident when the second movement (the false satisfaction of illusions) does not work any more: when school, work and the institutions of the spectacular civilized society no longer grip existences that, as a consequence, remain in the proclaimed metastasis of their alienation.
When such metastasis shows itself blindingly, when it inflicts inhuman senseless death, it can explode in angry nihilism : as they perceive the nullity that surrounds them and erodes their life, nameless individuals decide to give it back to its nothing. Angry nihilism wants exactly nothing and realizes perfectly how everything surrounding it has only to be swallowed up in its vacuity. The explosion of angry nihilism, which frees and explodes bad passions, can also be seen as pure fun generated by a nausea for the existent; but that is exactly how it turns into destructive euphoria.
Following the era of cynicism, opportunism and fear, in the present generalised proletarianisation of the life of each and every one, what struggles are possible? We are sorry to disappoint the indefatigable officers of human progress, but these struggles also involve the total destruction of what surrounds us. Once upon a time someone said: 'Nihilists...make just one more effort to be revolutionaries': it's a short step from wanting nothing to wanting everything. But we also say: 'Revolutionaries...make just one more effort to be nihilists' - it takes a bit of courage to be up to one's rage. But where will all this take us? Did not you realise? It will take us nowhere... And anyway, where do you think you are going, all of you?
SPREAD THE FIRES, FUCK
SPREAD THE FIRES, FUCK SOCIETY, LOOT WOT U LIKE FUCK THE REST lol
followers of Anarchism, dont you have any anarchy in your hearts? ;)
"...as has been said, theses
"...as has been said, theses things are contradictory as is actual society..."
"...There's talk of vigilante groups being set up tonight to defend communities against looters...."
Hmmm...now, who shall we sympathise and support...the rioter or the vigilante ..?
Quote: Hmmm...now, who shall
we shall critically sympathise the rioters, showing what is good (bourgeoisie rule and property contested) and also what is bad (hurting working class fellows) in the riots.
Quote: Iranian Foreign
I'm with Samotnaf on this
I'm with Samotnaf on this one. I saw things evolving in hackney and it wasn't that controversial as D describing the whole riot. People were on the streets, and not just "hoodies" and they didn't look so scared. They looked somewhat puzzled, and when the police turned up, you could see the tension between them and the cops. Things were rough, and noone should be surprised that there were casualties of all sorts. Criminality is part of the everydays of a capitalism, esp. alone urban areas. Criminality has the same casualties during festivals, demonstrations and so on. Mugging and bullying is clearly something we need to protect ourselves, because it's directed against the weakest always.
If someone only looked the BBC could get a very scary experience during the whole evening and night, but within these forums I guess noone is really surprised that how exegarated and falsified the BBC and other msm reports are. After all, if we take the whole thing in account, there's an almost surprisingly low number of physical casualties given the momentum of the events (as far as I know there was a man shot dead in Croydon).
Let's cool your heads and think. This didn't come about by accident. The story goes from milibank through march26. There's a generation that is completetely abadoned in any terms. As much we hate consumer society, we grew up in this and our needs and our feelings are fit to our state of affairs. These kids ditto. They don't give a fuck about rules, and they see things what they are: goods that you need to secure, by any means. That's what we do, that's what the rich do, that's what they do. Nihilism is the fabric of capitalist society. All you get is the fetish of commodity. And since the whole distribution of the goods are utterly chaotic already, they have taken advantage of this chaos. The point is clearly made IMO: we need to take advantage of it too!
Rioting is not revolutionary act on its own, true. But as revolutionary thinking goes, this is a time of scarcity for the working class, and consequently this is really our crises. Either we solve it, or there will be no ending in the line of government solutions. And we already know what we can expect from the bosses. So here's a good time to act: But every delusion has to be put aside: Times of scarcity, and reproduction crises does not carry inherent revolutionary values.
I hope this didn't reach its tipping point yet. As the police lost control yesterday, tonight, if things will kick in, it's gonna be more hairy. So I would call my comrades here and elsewhere: If ever, now is the time to gather your comrades in your community, organise selfdefense (vs. vigilantes, police and muggers), organise healthcare, organise food supply.
Similarily to the November of Paris, there was no clear underlying political motivation. And there will never be. But there are common sentiments between us and the rioters in the last days. We should not forget that!
@soc Totally agree.
@soc Totally agree.
sort it out frosty
sort it out frosty
Oh yeah! U know that thing, 8-)
no1 wrote: Quote: Iranian
restraint against protesters in Iran = using life ammunition, steel batons & knives
London rioters: 'Showing the
London rioters: 'Showing the rich we do what we want': http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424
"When poor kids steal things
"When poor kids steal things and ruin people lives it's called sheer criminality. When rich grown ups do it it's called austerity".
my mates' FB update
Besides a few good ones like this, There seems to unfortunately be loads of really reactionary and bigoted shit as well. Calls to 'bring in the army' seem pretty widespread and the open classism and racism is rearing it's ugly head in a very horrible way
Is there anything actually
Is there anything actually happening at the moment? I'm seeing a lot of panic and not much actual information.
Lots of sirens but all quiet
Lots of sirens but all quiet AFAIC...
Moves in Deptford to set up a community anti-arson team. If one shop goes up, all the flats on the High St are at risk.
yeah, I was just surprised to see that the Iranian government seem to have a sense of humour by trolling the British like that.
Quote: we shall critically
You people are admin: no flaming. This is a warning
IT Crowd writer asked people
IT Crowd writer asked people to gather information on rioters and has also been campaigning for twitter to handover the user information of rioters to the police...
Gerostock wrote: Quote: we
piter wrote: we shall
Bit hard to do that if your house is on fire...
Caiman del Barrio
Caiman del Barrio
Not to be trite, but surely this would have been an issue had there been a firefighters` strike, too.
no1 wrote: Entdinglichung
I do not think that this is sense of humour, probably, they are interpreting the riots in britain as a sign that the return of the "hidden imam" is nigh
Quote: Quote: we shall
I'm not saying that the rioters are all doing it to make a clear statement or something against the existing social order (it is far from that I guess).
but whatever the aim of the rioters are, it do contest the existing rules
(and I think some of them, impossible to know if its a minority or a majority, are doing it, at least also to express their revolt against the actual order).
a.t. wrote: Judging from my
same from many of my friends, quite disappointing really
uk news on the excellent
uk news on the excellent 'signalfire': http://signalfire.org/?tag=united-kingdom
From the Guardian
From the Guardian liveblog
revol68 wrote: i'd be getting
and a few pairs of jeans would be nice too.
Great BBC interview with an
Great BBC interview with an older black man who knows what's up. Kinda hard to hear though.
Statement from North London
Statement from North London SolFed:
Nice article on Indymedia
Nice article on Indymedia London:
Criminality and Rewards
Kicking off in Manchester and
Kicking off in Manchester and Salford.
It looks like the initial targets in Salford precinct were the Money Shop (moneylenders who prey on low-income people with massive interests rates and penalty charges) and the housing office, as well as the police. Salford Market has now been set on fire.
In the city centre Miss Selfridges is on fire, the Diesel shop and a super-pretentious patisserie on Deansgate have been smashed up, and the Ugg shop has been looted. Holland and Barratt, 3 and Orange on Market street have been smashed up.
Talking about it at work, we think there's a good likelihood of it kicking off in Moss Side the inner-city areas with lots of pissed off, unemployed young men; Hulme, Longsight, Levenshulme, Miles Platting, Harpurhey, Beswick, Crumpsall etc.
Some posh shops on St Anne's
Some posh shops on St Anne's square are being looted apparently.
A friend it town has seen some people getting battered by the police, one of them getting their head split open.
Entdinglichung wrote: London
Someone emailed me this with the subject "CHILLING", but I found it quite heartening. What I found troubling about the riots was the way looting and arson seemed to target other working class people, but these two clearly feel that their targets are the police and the bosses - whether the bosses are members of the local community or not.
Pretty good aljazeera
Pretty good aljazeera commentary on the riots, surprising if anyone here is familiar with their disgraceful coverage of the Greek unrest. http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/08/201189165143946889.html
As an aside, I'd like to link
As an aside, I'd like to link to a documentary called Crips and Bloods: Made in America. This is an amazing documentary on its own, but the relevant part here is roughly the first thirty minutes or so. It gives background on the subjugation and police harassment felt by the black community in LA, very similar to the stop and search harassment by police in London against poorer communities. The film then goes on to discuss the Watts riots of 1965 in depth and more or less from the point of view of the rioters with commentary from several people involved. It goes into how the riots led to a spring of youth empowerment and activism until the black power movements of the late 60s and early 70s were gunned down and locked away.
Anyway, the reason I'm putting it here is because the film involves discussion on the legitimacy of violence and looting, riots as guerrilla warfare, media manipulation, and most other serious discussions that I've heard with regard to the UK riots. Better yet, much of the discussion in the film is from participants in the battles, either through archival footage or more current interviews with participants who've had time to reflect on their actions.
Some choice quotes:
"You cannot whoop us. We're already dead. We're already beaten down; we've been beaten down for four hundred years. We've already got the wounds - inside and outside our bodies. How you gonna hurt us? You cannot threaten us. You cannot frighten us. We live in the most frightening places under the most frightening conditions. We are immune to fear. We are immune to harm. You have stepped into a cesspool. You the only one whose gonna get infected."
"They called it a riot. It was no riot; we knew what the hell we were doing."
"What you're seeing is guerrilla warfare, but the reason you can't say it is because you never gave the so-called negro credit for having enough intelligence to be strategists enough to practice guerrilla warfare."
"The looting didn't undermine anything because we're talking about desperate people. We're talking about people who have nothing - who see no hope."
By the way, if anyone knows where I can watch other documentaries that are basically "pro-riot," I would appreciate it. I've never found too many.
Django wrote: Kicking off in
Fuckem, if I was still there I'd be tempted to light up Brighthouse.
Even up here in the sticks the staff in the pound shop were talking about rumours that they were going to be targetted and there was a menacing group of about 8 kids in the shopping centre.
Looks like bother is
Looks like bother is spreading out to towns in the North West. I'm hearing there's loads of lads congregating in Bolton town centre, there's fires in Middleton and a mate got a brick thrown at him in Blackburn on the way home from work by some kids who also tried to set Primark on fire.
I reckon all the football will be cancelled this weekend.
i'm going into salford
i'm going into salford tomorrow so probs will report back. i've posted solfed's response on facebook anway.
Re the community defence
Re the community defence groups, all I know is last night there were a few asian lads trying to stop homes and shops being set on fire/smashed. Sounds fair enough to me.
Tonight apparently football fans are "protecting Eltham" and there's a "vigilante group running Enfield". I've seen this played out as local communities losing faith in the state and the police to protect them, but I'm not sure about the motives of this lot.
I can smell smoke outside
I can smell smoke outside here, and a big group of teenage lads went past - looks like they were heading into town. Cops were following them at a distance.
So it's all kicking off in
So it's all kicking off in Manchester while a load of Manchester's coppers are in London?
Auto wrote: So it's all
BBC News reporting that a
BBC News reporting that a police station in Nottingham has been firebombed. No injuries reported.
From earlier on tonight:
From earlier on tonight:
I've heard rumours that the
I've heard rumours that the EDL and even the NF are out tonight. Now we always get these sort of rumours, so I'm skeptical - but has anyone heard any confirmation of these things?
Going back to all the talk of
Going back to all the talk of youth centres, this was strangely prophetic.
Auto wrote: So it's all
Yeah, apparently the Welsh police have arrived in Manchester now.
Video of a large crowd of men
Video of a large crowd of men running through the streets of Enfield chanting 'England, England'.
I get the feeling that things could turn nasty...
Django wrote: Auto wrote: So
I'm starting to see a pattern forming here. :|
Police get run out of Salford
Police get run out of Salford
EDL fail in Eltham, get
EDL fail in Eltham, get kettled on a roundabout by the cops
Ramona wrote: EDL fail in
Auto wrote: BBC News
Better luck next time.
3 muslims have been killed in
3 muslims have been killed in Birmingham. Run over whilst apparently protecting shops
Video showing the
Video showing the 'vigilantes' in Eltham. Including 'EDL' chants.
I hope we don't see an upswing in right wing activity off the back of these riots.
Really good interview made
Really good interview made during the riots in Hackney with a local.
This should be spread around!
Below is a Facebook status
Below is a Facebook status update from a Londoner I met in Thailand a few years ago, Asian guy, early 30s:
Thats right....carry on cutting public sector personnel recruitment, shutting down youth clubs, keeping the division between the poor and rich, lower and upper classes, ethnic segregation, unemployment... Our government created this mess, now clear it up! the UK uprising starts here...this is just the beggining
Nothing remarkable except he's an ex member of The Met.
Local BBC on Nottingham with
Local BBC on Nottingham with video - 5 police stations hit in total last night. Nearly 100 arrests. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-14472172
Nottingham Indymedia on same: http://nottingham.indymedia.org.uk/articles/1983
Watching it in last night it
Watching it in last night it seemed to be mostly thrill seeking kids and people taking advantage of the chaos to do a spot of looting. Looking at the shops that had been targeted though its tempting to see something getting close to class-consciousness in it - on my road both the shops that were attacked were pawn shops.
It was clear from the outset that people weren't been attacked - as all the callers to local radio made clear. Even so, as others have said, the general response seems to be 'call in the tanks' / 'bring in the army' etc. Which is to say, a revolutionary moment seems some way away!
jamie oliver tweets: "so sad
jamie oliver tweets:
"so sad to see whats happening in UK with these Riots!all gone mad !time to get our country back now we need 2 come down hard on these idiots"
a bit later:
"sadly my restaurant in Birmingham got smashed up windows all gone whole area closed, cant open, staff and customers all safe!!thankfully jox"
There's been some relatively
There's been some relatively minor stuff in Oxford too - in Barton, Headington, Cowley, Botley, Littlemore (where a guy's in hospital after fires) and also Blackbird Leys (where there was rioting about 20 years ago, it's one of the biggest council estates in europe and where IWCA do/did most of their stuff in Oxford - would be interesting to know the IWCA reaction to this if there is one as from what I read they seemed quite entrenched in the community). A McDonalds, cars and a bar have been burnt.
The only people I know who I think are involved with it from my old school are all definitely poor, anti-police, disempowered, etc. but they're also the people who mug ordinary people on a day-to-day basis. Pretty mixed reaction from non-politico locals apart from that, but mainly negative.
Also more minor stuff going on in Banbury, Milton Keynes, High Wycombe, Slough and Reading (though for most those places all I've heard about is a couple of arrests, not sure what has actually been happening). I presume if it's this widespread and in cities/towns as small as these, it must be pretty much everywhere around the UK.
Quote: but they're also the
This is a funny thing to address. Yeah working class inner city youth mug people, but should we really be joining the chorus of condemnation? Someone has tried to mug me before (luckily, I had nothing and we ended up chatting for a bit), it's not cool and I didn't enjoy it, but the people are not passive working class angels either.
Arbeiten wrote: Quote: but
surely it depends on what the issue is, if its people getting mugged then we should absolutely condem them. Looting from shops is very different. Although I can also see how people find it intimidating if they see the people doing it as the same ones who mug them (Not saying this is the reality but just public perception). as this probably makes them see it as purely individual opportunism rather than something done ethically or having class conscious.
I just wasn't sure by your
I just wasn't sure by your first post whether it was you saying you believe looters are also muggers, or whether you think other people think looters are also muggers.
Also, I think it is worth pursuing this further. What is a mugger? do these people actually recognize the people who mugged them as also looters (then, fair enough), or is it just some shite condescending prejudice based on what inner city working class youth look like. If it is the latter kind, then I don't have much sympathy. It's that same attitude that has been a contributing factor to this in the first place. police sees a kid, 'oh he/she looks like a mugger', lets stop search him/her.
Arbeiten wrote: I just wasn't
I think you have confused me with another poster, I didnt bring up muggers and looters that was someone else.
As to your question I would imagine most people conflating muggers with looters are doing so on the basis of some idea of what 'a mugger' looks like. This is often of course a result of prejudice and media propaganda but I think its worth pointing out that lots of people are disprportionatly victims of crime committed by people dressed a certain way.If I'm walking down my area and I see a group of male youths in hoodies then I do become more alert to the possibility they might try something with me as its happened to me loads of times.
I used to wears hoodies and stuff and dress like what some would call a 'hoodlum' and even then I would be wary of others dressed like me. I dont think that makes it prejudice.
Looks like the reaction from
Looks like the reaction from the public as a whole - or at least the ones that are polled - is going to be pretty bad.
The video going around of the
The video going around of the Manchester police beating teens up on bikes... that has been linked around my office as a positive video.
These riots really are strengthening the hand of the authoritarians...
Some good reporting:
Some good reporting: http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/London+rioters+resent+media+image+hooded+teen+thug/5233682/story.html
COPS, prison guards, private
COPS, prison guards, private security firms, large capitalists, politicians, military personnel and so on are all shit. Any person in a position of authority with little to no accountability is going to abuse his/her power.
COPS in America have been going ape shit for decades....you can see videos on youtube of them beating mentally handicap people, beating underage girls, knocking out mothers with babies at their side....elderly people being tazerd to death (we're talking 90 years old), a man being shot in the back while face down and handcuffed....kids on skatboards being assaulted by COPS, elderly women being pulled out of their cars and tazed for speeding, prison guards setting up death matches in prison, solders assassinating scores of innocent civilians....just brutality from every angle coming from the state. By their definition the state is in a state of "anarchy" (chaos). Add the current economic condition into the mix and America could blow up next. The recent Oscar Grant murder sparked some outrage but nothing on the scale we're seeing in England at the moment.
Some of the people out there looting and such should keep in mind who the enemy is...I have no pity for corporate store fronts being looted but harming fellow working class peoples is fucked.
I went into Salford today for
I went into Salford today for a short while, but didn't see anything though (tbh I was avoiding it). The Salford Star (a council-funded dissident mag) has been covering it with pics as well. The first article is surprisingly sympathetic, comparing it to Shameless. Lots of residents were terrified though, which is very shitty.
However, the office of new labourite expenses fiddler and war mongerer MP Hazel Blear was targeted which was fucking A!!
Contrast the comments below each of the two articles - it gives me hope that despite the media onslaught their can be some unity IF these young people choose their targets wisely.
From looking on facebook the
From looking on facebook the EDL are trying to make a lot out of this (and the EDL are on facebook... ugh)
And, can anyone confirm this?
You guys are lucky they are
You guys are lucky they are even letting this happen. Forget about strengthening the authoritarian hand
If this happend here, stateside, people would surely be dead now. Shit it happens everyday with out the riots. 11 unarmed people have been killed by police in my town this year. Same shit different day as they say
As I expected, Occupied
As I expected, Occupied London has one of the better responses.
Demo in Athens in solidarity
Demo in Athens in solidarity to the UK uprising
Our greek comrades are closer than ever.
yourmum wrote: jamie oliver
One more reason to support the rioters.
One thing that's gone largely unreported is that the job centre was set on fire as well (it's next to the carpet place) I saw a message about it, but largely forgot as this thing got big. That's going to cause some people problems, although they were trying to shut it down anyway, apparently 3 job centres in the borough was too many and it made more sense to close the one near where most of the people who need it live. I've also been told that people can claim back property damage from the police under the riot act but they have to claim within 14 days.
Thought this was bang on
Did anyone else ever hear the
Did anyone else ever hear the average idiot, from liberals to fascists to the 'i hate immigrants and the BNP' personality-less reactionary call for the French revolution? I always seemed to hear that a lot, even on TV.
The revolution which killed at least 17,000 people? And plenty of criminals used to rob and loot?
The prime minister promised
The prime minister promised he would do "whatever it takes" to restore order to the streets as he set out a range of measures aimed at helping businesses and homeowners affected by the riots.
To look at whether it would be right to stop people communicating via social media when "we know they are plotting violence, disorder and criminality"
Plans to look at whether wider powers of curfew and dispersal orders were needed
New powers for police to order people to remove facemasks where criminality is suspected
Courts could be given tougher sentencing powers
Landlords could be given more power to evict criminals from social housing
Plans to extend the system of gang injunctions across the country and build on anti-gang programmes, similar to those in the US
LOL! anti-gang measures
LOL! anti-gang measures similar to the US! Yes lets do that, because the US is gang free! I try to not really take everything that is said by our populist politicians too seriously in the earlier days. Remember when Trees'r'May was going to bring in water cannons late last year?
The only one that really riles me is the thing about evictions.
Arbeiten wrote: The only one
Local media seem to be cheer-leading this.
manchester rioting was a bit
manchester rioting was a bit more focused also, blears getting done twice is a good example
Here's a Socialist Party
Here's a Socialist Party response.
So they conclude it's really about youth out of jobs, but condemn them for fighting, then plug Youth Fight For Jobs and a load of mental transitional demands they know full well are impossible were they ever to take the council again :wall:
aloeveraone wrote: Looks like
i'm not inclined to pay too much attention to opinion polls. so much is in the framing of the question, and it assumes an absent depth, conviction and consistency to 'beliefs' formed on the fly. for example some of the same people who were on my facebook calling for the army, supporting the Met etc also liked my status saying i hoped all my mates had new trainers and TVs. 'the government should take decisive steps to cut the deficit' / 'strongly agree' // 'the government should maintain investment in the NHS and vital services' / 'strongly agree' etc.
The Guardian article is from
The Guardian article is from 2009 :confused:
Quote: The Guardian article
:lol: it is! hahahaha! fail!, Still her car deserved it....
So they've started sentencing
So they've started sentencing people, a kid in Manchester just got four months for "swearing and ranting at police", someone else got 10 months for stealing a £3.50 bottle of water.
flippin' 'eck, CALL THE ARMY
flippin' 'eck, CALL THE ARMY I SAY! nearly a year for a bottle of water!
Listening to 5 Live yesterday
Listening to 5 Live yesterday they had politicians from all three major parties, practically falling over themselves to be seen to be in favour of the most strict reforms to the law. There seems to be a real taste for a shift to the right in the country.
It worries me that at the core of most people's anger about the looting and rioting seems to be a general hatred of what I guess people perceive as 'chav' culture - people are speaking opening about 'ferral scum', and 'rats' etc. And I think the reason that people hate this section of society so much is that they don't seem to be obeying the ingrained work ethic of the rest of society. There certainly seems to be little taste for examining or challenging these norms.
As an aside, The Sun and I think The Star both had front-pages with screaming headlines along the lines of 'Anarchy In The UK' today. I've seen plenty of discussion on other (non-political) forums about anarchists organising this, based mainly i think on leaflets that were distributed in london advising on how to get out of being charged if you get arrested rioting.
Yeah thats a difficult one
Yeah thats a difficult one (your last point Anatta), anarchos get bad public rep. whatever happens. I mean, those armchair politicians arn't really our constituency anyway so we shouldn't spend too much time worrying about their scorn. They are probably the same people who think 'liking' a facebook page in favour of the police is a mode of political action.
This whole debacle has shown really how spiteful the class hatred in this country is, an absolute refusal to try and understand the complex issues that are staring us right in the face.
What we have to do now is something like what is happening in Hackney and Deptford. Try and re-articulate this around anti-governmental sentiment instead of jumping on the bloody securitocracy bandwagon. The facebook group for the Tottenham march on saturday has a lot of positive responses on it.
As for the major parties falling over themselves, they have been since the election of Tony Blair....
Quote: I think the reason
Yes! This is so true. The fetishisation of labour is a big part of what is driving liberals and leftists to this anti working class sentiment.
Ramona wrote: So they've
Do you a link for that?
Some more people have been sentenced in Manchester:
I find their occupations interesting, I mean it's like a real life Fight Club.
Arbeiten wrote: This whole
This whole debacle has shown really how spiteful the class hatred in this country is, an absolute refusal to try and understand the complex issues that are staring us right in the face. [quote]
I agree, it's really very depressing in that respect
Fined for throwing a coin
Fined for throwing a coin
wojtek wrote: Ramona
this sounds like the worst of them at a first glance, police really are pathetic bullies.
Anatta wrote: And I think
this is really well stated.
Arbeiten wrote: LOL!
Water cannons? In the USA the national guard would be brought in and people would be shot and beaten to death by 'authorities'. The 'anti gang' measures are largely what are filling our prisons now seeing they put a 'gang enhancement' on any initial charges a person may get. This doesn't always mean the person in question is actually in a gang- he/she may just have a friend or two in a gang- he/she may "look like a gang member" (that's definitely up for subjective interpretation)...the evictions are another fucked up thing- in public housing if a kid is arrested the parents or grandparents will be evicted and made homeless.
It basically looks like the right wing in your country wants to create a prison industrial complex similar to that of the USA. That would be a shame and you guys should fight this tooth and nail. Especially since hard economic times are ahead. This is usually where the "reserve army of labor" ends up these days.....prison (at least in America).
In my community there were
In my community there were isolated incidents of arson, which were preceded by the riots. A parked car was set alight to, which might have been a failed car bomb, however, a burning vehicle is a means of creating an explosion. So this was terrorists, certainly, but the local Fire Brigade had it under control, while it was parked in a side street where there are several businesses of Yiddish speakers, therefore, when referring to this terrorist attack, it is certain to be antisemitic also, and the car was left outside a Pentacostal Church. Several private cars were sweeping the area and many of the people from the community were in hot pursuit.
regoose jeter wrote: A parked
Sorry, but do you have any particular reasons for thinking it was a car bomb? From what I can see, it seems that there were a lot of burning cars during the riots, what makes you think this one was different from all those others?
Cars aren't particularly difficult to set on fire and don't normally explode with enough force to cause real damage to the surroundings.
It seems to me that after the
It seems to me that after the reactionary backlash against the riots, there's now possibly something of a backlash against the backlash. A few people I know who were part of the 'crackdown hard' brigade during the riots themselves have now softened slightly in their opinions - largely, I think, after hearing the hard right rhetoric from the politicians.
What do people think?
Yeah CRUD, I wasn't laughing
Yeah CRUD, I wasn't laughing because I think the US system is good, it actually creates gang members. Have you read the last section of Foucault's Discipline and Punish, he makes a point about the whole prison and police system actually creating criminality. Prisons are friggin' training grounds for gang members!
Auto, I have not yet seen any backlash against the backlash. Just a shit storm of class hatred. That video of the cops smashing that kid in has left loads of people with raging fuckin hard authoritarian erections.....
Auto wrote: It seems to me
I hope so, but I guess the thing about having principled politics is that we'll be doing what we'd be doing anyway, regardless of whether it makes us popular or not
Oh of course, I'm not
Oh of course, I'm not suggesting that anarchists should be 'following the crowd' - and a certain amount of those reposting comments about 'understanding' the causes of the riots will be liberals trying to score points against conservatives, but I thought it was interesting nonetheless.
It makes me wonder how much of the 'hang 'em and shoot 'em' rhetoric is from people who actually believe it and how much of it comes from fear and confusion during breakdowns in established order.
yeah agree - if you watch the
yeah agree - if you watch the telly the message about how the world works is clearly "capitalism or barbarism".
Auto wrote: It makes me
I wonder how much of it stems from bitterness. I mean, most people have pretty shitty lives even if they are relatively comfortable. So when they see people disregarding laws and helping themselves to plasma TVs and the like, in the absence of any notion of an alternative way of living own lives, it gives them the perfect target onto which to pour their anger and resentment.
Most people simply do not consider for a second that there is an alternative to the current consumer capitalism that they live in, so when people break the rules and seemingly get away with it, it makes them angry.
The latest edition of the
The latest edition of the Novara Radio Show is on the unrest:
Another aspect of the
Another aspect of the response to the riot I can't stand is the Liberal perspective on these poor areas of the country. It makes out that everyone in these areas are completely helpless victims. That they are all so crushed by their poverty that they are in desperate need of 'help' and 'services' from outside (usually from the state). If that help is taken away (by the 'Tory Cuts') then they have no hope.
Now there's truth in some of that -capitalism makes a lot of areas really shit places to live, and to an extent people are trapped by their class and by their conditions - But they're not helpless. They're human beings with all the agency, decision making and power that all human beings have. When people were rioting and looting they were expressing all those things. It wasn't directed, and how revolutionary it was is up for debate - but this was not the so called 'cry of the helpless' that the liberal left are making it out to be.
If Anarchists do have anything to bring to the table in the post-riot discourse it's raising the point that these people aren't helpless - they have the power and the ability to make huge changes - but it has to come from within their own communities and can't be relied upon to come from outside (government, the middle-classes, the police).
With all of the things that have been happening, I get the feeling that there is a real hunger for social justice, even if people don't have the 'political' language to express it.
Anarchism in the Independent,
Anarchism in the Independent, without wanting to derail the thread are Chumbawumba any good?
they are literally the worst
they are literally the worst thing that happened to music n Britain.
But the article isn't bad!
First eviction notice
First eviction notice served:
Explanation of the legality of collective punishment:
I thought it was ok as well.
I thought it was ok as well. Although,
Surely someone's having a giraffe...
This council eviction thing
This council eviction thing is beyond a fucking joke, what short sited populist shit....
I think the solfed text, and
I think the solfed text, and the others cited here should be criticised but the end of this statement is really posturing and bad posturing.
everyone knows that the groups cited here are not identifying with "vigilante gangs of the petty-bourgeois defending their small enterprises". and saying they are is just silly and idiotic polemics...nothing to do with constructive critique....
Wigan Athletic FC are
Wigan Athletic FC are encouraging its supporters to 'SHOP A LOOTER'.
Did anything even kick of in
Did anything even kick of in Wigan?
No, there were a few rumours,
No, there were a few rumours, but no rioting. I'm not sure why that wasn't the case, I mean it's not for a lack of good looting targets. There's about four pawn brokers, several bookies and a flash 'grand arcade' which I feel like burning down Angry Brigade style whenever I go inside. With regards the statement, it's probably just the Dave 'striking is Communism' Whelan getting paranoid in his old age, bless...
The Welsh are nearly as smug
The Welsh are nearly as smug about nothing happening in Cardiff as they were about the tuition fees. I've heard a fair few 'best police force in Britain' comments on the social networking sites. You would think they had won a Rugby match.
I've been internet-free for a
I've been internet-free for a few days, and would like eventually to reply to some of the stuff here, but for the moment here's a large (possibly excessive) bit of cut-and-paste about the looting in the riots of 30 years ago, which supports those who support looting and undermines the ideology of those who don't:
Armchair Anarchist wrote: I
But surely, Armchair, you're aware of the old folkie as one of the founding fathers of your political tendency? His seminal text;
over here in australia the
over here in australia the abc has mostly just been recycling bbc coverage, but on their "yoof" radio station triple j they had a brit on putting forward a fairly pro-rioter stance on their current affairs programme which wasn't bad - you can listen to it on their website (it's friday's episode) http://www.abc.net.au/triplej/hack/
aren't the uk's prisons already pretty overcrowded as it is? so won't a huge increase in angry pissed off inmates increase the risk of a major prison rebellion?
Some interesting comments
Some interesting comments from looters here:
'The whites have become
'The whites have become black' says David Starkey
Very worrying developments.
Very worrying developments. It seems that this eviction things are kicking off.
Starting to read this, trying to find a framework in which to place and understand the riots. Yay nay?
The Chinese free market
The Chinese free market Stalinist "Communist" Party take on the riots :
I love that "British youth are ‘wild beasts...they respond only to instinctive animal impulses — to eat and drink, have sex, seize or destroy the accessible property of others." So seizing or destroying property is as basic as eating, drinking and having sex. Says it all really (the opposite is also true: starving, dehydration, celibacy and not seizing or destroying property relations is a mark of "civilisation" as we know it - for some now, for many, if not most, of those reading this, the possible future).
What Debord said about the integrated spectacle seems pertinent here:
subprole wrote: Those who
Yet more abstracted academic insurrecionist tripe.
How many times do I need to repeat that the looters in my area were local gang kids?
i am sick and fucking tired of every old cunt putting their oar in on one or other side of this fucking binary established by the mainstream media (who, lest we forget, were just about as discredited as possible this time last week but have now reasserted themselves accordingly). Some of the stuff I've seen written - including by groups with members on this site - has smacked of chin-strokign ivory towers, patronising bullshit. As if the hoods trashing my road wouldn't have loved to mug your hipster-punk poseur asses!
Quote: Those who identify
I posted this on another thread:
This is hypothetical, but if something did kick off here what would the "vigilante gangs of the petty-bourgeois defending their small enterprises" (local translation: Asian shopkeepers) be supposed to do - just let their shops be trashed by "working class youth carrying out the dictatorial expropriation of the social wealth" (local translation: mainly white kids from the estates)?
Caiman del Barrio
[quote=Caiman del Barrio]subprole
That seems to be a pretty generalised statement. If people are implying every single rioter was a Robin Hood-esque, exploited and class conscious prole, then that of course is foolish but it doesn't do much good falling into the average reactionary, Daily Mail fan category of baseless opinions. Riots and revolts are often, if not always hijacked by criminality; that's not to say any 'vigilante' protecting their livelihood is doing anything remotely immoral. I'm sure a lot of the vigilantes were violent, thuggish 'british bulldog' types we'd usually be fighting against, psychically or figuratively. I think most anarchists can surely agree proletarian looting from huge corporations which vacuum profits from the community/workers and use third world exploitation to further their wealth is acceptable, but muggings, arson and home invasion is unacceptable.
Quote: working class youth
This sort of crap used to irritate me; now it just makes me chuckle. The only sentiment behind the riots besides the opportunism of the gangland scumbags was anger in it's crudest expression. Anybody who sees a profound revolutionary Marxist ethos is deluded. The fact that the justified anger of the urban working class is expressing itself in dumb violence reflects another failure of the left to direct these energies to a positive goal, and a victory for the Tories. The Cabinet has probably spent the last few months terrified that anger would express itself in the Greek or Spanish fashion. They're probably still celebrating.
I saw this comment to an
I saw this comment to an article on the occupied london website:
The latter point is very important. Apart from verbal declarations of solidarity with those arraigned on all sorts of charges, are there any practical steps to directly support those charged (people derided, implicitly, by some 'oppositionists' here as mere social criminals rather than 'sussed' political criminals)?
Demo against council house
Demo against council house eviction in SW London this Thurs: http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=263018167043693
Baronarchist - you call my comment a foolish generalisation then end up agreeing with it? Check the context, I was referring to the insurrecionist binary above! Quite clearly last week's events spiralled off in all directions.
Wellclose Square - the only
Wellclose Square - the only possibility that has really occurred to me is some kind of opposition to councils trying to evict people who get convicted, or whose children get convicted.
Edit: cross posted with Caiman - I'm glad to see something's happening.
Caiman del Barrio wrote: Demo
Caiman del Barrio
Ah ok, I couldn't work out your exact comments, so I called those supporting all the rioters foolish and those condemning them all to hold baseless opinions. It seemed like a few anarchists (though I admit I obviously misinterpreted your point) held the opinion there were only 'rioters' and all involved were ransacking normal people's homes, as that's what he media has largely portrayed. It's the binary opposite to the 'all cops are good' idiot rhetoric.
A message from Greater
A message from Greater Manchester Police
Mark. wrote: A message from
They seem quite proud to have jailed a mother of two who didn't take part in any looting. To think we're now in a situation where we get told that, then see the sentence 'There are no excuses!' after and still have to deal with people who claim the State has no where near enough power.
Gerostock: Quote: Anybody who
And this from the guy who supported the Falklands war (itself a product of the '81 riots) because, despite bad intentions, the result was "good" (ho ho): see http://libcom.org/forums/news/what-argentinian-claim-falklands-18062011
Whose "dumb violence"? Whose intelligent violence? And what"s wrong with
. Clearly crudity is upsetting for those who think being sophisticated in their violence is worth defending (sophisticated violence = Thatcher's Falklands War...? or what, Gerostock?).
Those who judge things purely intellectually on their "good" or "bad" intentions ignore the fact that we have to concentrate on the results if we want a revolution against this society. These riots, as i've said before, have to go forward and to condemn them on the basis that they don't fit a stereotype that no one is making ("a profound revolutionary Marxist ethos") is reactionary shit.
Wellclose quotes occupied london , which expresses it well:
Youth today have been deprived, in any practical sense, of the radical history of the struggles of over 150 years that led up to the riots of 1981. These riots were comparatively a lot more friendly and less crazily desperate (though even this cricture of the present riots has been grossly exaggerated by the media and the ruling society generally , which also conveniently forgets for the moment how many people get killed/mugged, etc. outside of riotous situations). Not suprisingly then, given the repressions of the last 20 years of virtual silence, these youths hit out in sometimes mad ways, but then the Left, so beloved of Gerostock, and of which s/he is a part, also do this, but in a far less "crude" manner (e.g. support for one vicious set of rulers against another)....Crudity involves a risk with one's life, whereas sophistication doesn't even involve this: it's just a show of opposition.
If the young are going to develop a clearer class consciousness, it's certainly not by repressing their desire to expropriate the expropriators by looting, but of contributing towards these subversive acts becoming explicit forms of opposition. Which is already happening to a certain extent:
Some more opinions of some of
Some more opinions of some of those that partook in the riots here. This is I think something which has really been lacking, at least in the media coverage.
'London rioters resent media image of hooded teen thug'
Also with regards this:
At 45:30 mins, one of the presenters reads out one of the bbm (?) messages which goes as follows:
Obviously it's just one message and bound to be analysed to the point of redundancy, but I still think it may be worth considering.
As far as I know it's unknown whether it was written by a gang member or a citizen.
oops double post
oops double post
Samotnaf wrote: ]And this
What is being done by
What is being done by communists in England to call support to those evicted and/or imprisoned?
Anyone seen this?: Quote: one
Anyone seen this?:
Bone's an all-over-the-place demagoguic populist but he sometimes has interesting information.
Quote: Bear(?) shops Bear =
Bear = "lots of". Well it should be spelled 'bare' too :)
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bare has more.
Mark. wrote: A message from
The fact that the GMP (correctly?) feel that this will chime well with popular feeling is really worrying.
wojtek wrote: Some more
'bare' = a lot
'dead endz and colour war' = lets stop the fighting between areas (eg. Tottenham vs Hackney etc) and let's stop some of the 'gang' fights where people wear colours to show what side they are on.
I think that message kind of shows the mixed elements to the riots. On the one hand there are positives like youths targetting their rage against police rather than each other and on the other hand there is the glorifying of 'terror' and 'havoc'
I think questioning wheather it's written by a 'gang member' or a citezen is not a good thing to do. These 'gangs' the police speak of are just generally groups of youths that hang around with each other on the streets and sometimes do anti-social stuff. None of this dequalifies them from being a 'citizen'. That distinction is exactly what the media/politicians have been trying to emphasise IMO
Sorry, the northern youth haven't carried out the dictatorial expropriation of the south's social linguistic wealth yet. Academic insurrectionists are not best pleased with us.
Quote: This sort of crap used
While I too am slightly irritated by the blind celebration faux poetic violence, I find it ten times more irritating, actually infuriating, when people call these people 'scumbags'. If the failure to articulate the riots properly into a legitimate expression of anger was part the failure of the left, then it's this sort of crude class hatred that compounds 'the left' (whoever they are) failure. Perhaps you should join the New Labour front bench, I'm sure they would love you....
Arbeiten wrote: Quote: This
I called the gangs scumbags, not the rioters. Maybe if you read more thoroughly you'd be less infuriated.
I'm reading it pretty
I'm reading it pretty carefully (a little bit more annoyed that you have suggested I didn't the first time), and I would still argue that that distinction is not made firm enough (if at all). Even so, given the structure of a 'gang' (of which I don't claim to be an expert), is everyone in the gang from the small runners at the bottom to the guys at the top etc, etc all equally bagged in scummary? Do we know how much organized gang activity influenced these riots? Or are we making the horrible mistake of presuming this happened in the city - there are gangs in the city = therefore it was perpetrated by gangs. This is a difficult issue and i don't think we should be involved in blind piñata blame stick waving. There were certainly gang elements involved, but as wojtek's post shows, the inter-gang violence was side lined for the larger picture*. That seems to me like the largest problem with gang violence, is that they kill and maim one and other. If that is sidelined then I don't see this is a particularly blaring gang issue?
I had hoped that people on this board would ease off on the scum language (apart from when talking about Tories of course, who are all equally filthy c**ts from top to bottom).
*and we can moan about what we thought about the larger picture all we want. I personally think that is a bit of a blind alley because, whatever this was, it was massively disparate and contradictory.
Arbeiten wrote: I'm reading
Agree with you here. The 'gang' = scum equation only works if you want to put down or devalue the whole thing and line up with the chorus of condemnation, which of course 'we' don't. In terms of the undoubted episodes of indiscriminate violence, I'm wondering whether a 'natural', meteorological metaphor is appropriate to describe the insurrection in all its 'good' and 'bad' dimensions - a storm that's been building up and waiting to break, which is indiscriminate in its effects when it's broken... perhaps? The air has been 'cleared' (temporarily), to be filled by the clamour for class justice on the one hand, and reflections on where we (including the BMX-riding 'chavs', held face down on a pavement at gunpoint by police in Manchester yesterday for NOTHING) go from here.
This in The
This in The Guardian:
Agree with Arbeiten &
Agree with Arbeiten & Wellclose above. By now it should be clear that - in order to avoid the simplistic good or evil absolutes offered up by the media and its mouths - to have a useful discussion about all this one has to qualify from the start what seems positive and what reactionary within the complexities. So using vague undefined terms like "gangland" begs the question, and at worst is a way of conveniently dismissing - without much thought - the real complexities and contradictions. "Gangland" as in the traditional professional criminal 'gangland-style killing' arena? Or "gangland" as in territorial youth turf/postcode identities? Or as in mix of the two, more common in the US? Or the leadership of such gang businesses, or their rank'n'file footsoldiers/street hustlers - who may have different, opposing, attitudes to the riots?
But worth remembering there was also a gang truce during and after the 1992 LA riot - but it didn't hold very long before things went back to normal rivalries.
Red Marriott wrote: But worth
I remember this. Is it too much of a pipedream for current London rivalries to be suspended (leaving aside Spurs and Arsenal ;) ) while the repression continues... and beyond? What's the scope for some kind of 'No War But the Class War' take on all this (writing as a pedantic, technophobic old git)?
Suddenly, it seems like all the seemingly dated King Mob/UAWM-type stuff of the late '60s is relevant again... or am I going off on one?
that seems relevant:
This article was written by
This article was written by an ex-member of the IWCA who now lives in New Zealand.
MJ wrote: What is being done
That's a fair question. There are plenty of choice, we should get together these possibilities according to our strength.
Worrying Twitter rumours: -a
Worrying Twitter rumours:
-a criminal solicitor claims that police in Notting Hill have been instructed to round up all black men known to them (?)
-a magistrate in Camberwell claims that the govt has ordered courts to jail all rioters
Quote: Arbeiten wrote:
so rioters don't equates gang members, maybe you should have recognised this earlier...
and maybe then we shall see in the riots something else than a failure...(and if we talk of a failure of "the left" it is that the youth (and not so youth by the way) don't let their anger to be sucked in "respectable" political activity such as supporting "the left").
yes we still live under capitalist relations that means we haven't yet succeeded to destroy it, we know that...
the question is what in the riots point to the reproduction of capital and what point to its destruction and replacement by something else, and what are we doing with it .
I denounce the state and its
I denounce the state and its repression but I don't think that looting is a positive aspect of class struggle nor is it any move towards the unity of interests of the working class. In fact I would say that it goes in the opposite direction.
There is no situation here of rising class struggle, and even less so of any revolutionary development. But it's interesting to look at how looters were dealt with in the Russian Revolution (I'm not making any strict analogy with today, which is totally different but just a general point on looting during a revolutionary upheaval).
In "Year One of the Russian Revolution", Victor Serge confronts the question of looting by quoting a report by Antonov-Ovseyenko:
"The problem was particularly serious with the cellars of the Winter Palace. The Preobrazhensky regiment, which had been put in charge of them, got drunk and became quite useless. The Pavlovsky regiment, our sure revolutionary shield, went the same way. Teams of soldiers were sent, picked from various regiments: they too got drunk. The workers' committees attempted no further resistance. The crowd had to be dispersed by armoured cars, whose crews were soon reeling to. By nightfall it had become a wild orgy. 'Let's drink up the Romanov leftovers', they sang gaily in the crowd. Order was restored in the end by sailors fresh from Helsinki, men or iron who had been more used to killing than drinking. In the suburbs of Vassili-Ostov, the Finland regiment, which was led by anarcho-syndicalists, decided to shoot the looters on the spot and blow up the wine cellars."
And Serge adds: "These devotees of liberty took no half-measures and a good job too".
Another situation which also doesn't directly correspond to the present riots was in one situation in New Orleans where half-a-dozen cops with pistols drawn and aimed at other coppers, gave cover-fire to the "looters", mostly young men who were taking from a supermarket water, baby food, nappies, sanitary towels and so on which were badly needed in the terrible conditions of the Astrodome.
This recent looting is not a revolutionary act but a reflection of bourgeois ideology as, very clearly for me, is the idea of violence to workers, their homes and local shops being "collatoral damage" - a capitalist-speak straight from the Pentagon.
Youth run amok on the UK's
Youth run amok on the UK's streets for several nights in a row, signalling their dissatisfaction with and disengagement from just about everything, as well as the utter inability of the revolutionary movement to be relevant to them.
The state's reaction - cheerled by the majority of the working class - is to jail upwards of 3000 people for all sorts of menial offenses, evict folk from their homes, cut their benefits, and mobilise water cannons and social media censorship "for next time".
Baboon responds with a tokenistic condemnation and quotes from the Russian Revolution.
you really wouldn't have
you really wouldn't have thought that this was a radical poltics forum, judging by loads of these posts.
Given the massive support the
Given the massive support the Branscombe beach looters enjoyed from the ICC, I'm surprised to see Baboon's dismissal of these ones.
I still think that An open
I still think that An open letter to those who condemn looting (part 1 and part 2 ) is the best response and analysis from radicals sofar....
flaneur wrote: Given the
I went back and found the thread on Branscombe - I didn't look through the whole thing, but I think you've got it completely wrong, we condemned the looting, especially posts from demogorgon.
I don't think there's anything wrong with quoting events from the russian revolution - if they're relevant to your point (which they were to the point baboon was making). However in russia in 1917 there was an organised working class which was in the process of organising a revolution. There's plenty to learn fgrom the events in russia, however I think it's not necessarily directly relevant here. Lots of commentators, including in todays Guardian have pointed out the similarities with the events in France in 2005 (which were then followed by the student CPE movement in 2006...)
The ICC has published a statement on the riots. People have commented to us that there seems to be a substantial / long winded introduction to it, before we say anything substantive about the riots. The reason for that is because we wanted to place things in a context, as the text from SOLFED (the substantial majority of which the ICC supports) does, in opposition to the general hysteria and immediate taking of one position or another by the mainstream press / liberals etc..
To quote a part of it, in support of baboons post:
Do the riots we have seen in the UK this past week provide a method for fighting back, for taking control, for uniting our forces, for carving out a different future for ourselves? Many of those taking part in the riots were clearly expressing their anger against the police and against the possessors of wealth, who they see as the main cause of their own poverty. But almost immediately the riots threw up more negative elements, darker attitudes fed by decades of social disintegration in the poorest urban areas, of gang culture, of buying into the dominant philosophies of every man for himself and ‘get rich or die trying’. This is how an initial protest against police repression got derailed by a chaos of frankly anti-social and anti-working class actions: intimidation and mugging of individuals, trashing of small neighbourhood shops, attacks on fire and ambulance crews, and the indiscriminate burning of buildings, often with their residents still inside. Such actions offer absolutely no perspective for standing up to the thieving system we live under. On the contrary, they only serve to widen divisions among those who suffer from the system. Faced with attacks on local shops and buildings, some residents armed themselves with baseball bats and formed ‘protection units’. Others volunteered for clean-up operations the day after the riots. Many ordinary people complained about the lack of police presence and demanded stronger measures.Who will profit most from these divisions? The ruling class and its state
Re: baboon's contribution.
'Collateral damage' does occur in both capitalist and class wars (and these riots are most clearly part of the class war whatever their mix of positive and negative) but we pro-revolutionaries should not of course justify it even though the hypocritical politicians always do in their wars against each other and us.
Rebelious working class youth cannot be expected to wait on the rest of the class anymore than other sections of workers in struggle should be expected to wait for the 'appropriate' level of class wide struggle (as judged by the revolutionary vanguard no doubt!).
Class unity is a product of confrontation through struggle as much within the class as between classes.
Mass looting is objectively against commodity society even if the looters subjectivity isn't.
And why should looters restrict themselves to 'necessities'. I like champaign, why shouldn't they?
baboons other quotes are worrying - is this what the ICC and it's supporters have in mind for the rest of us when our joyous rebellion really takes off? Otherwise they are just irrelevant to current circumstances.
babboon would seem to be more at home with some of the more conservative elements posting on the (otherwise) interesting discussion threads at 'the commune'.
I have hesitated to post on these threads before since hasty judgements without knowledge are often embarrassing when not plain dangerous, and frankly I don't identify materially with the situation or actions of the young looters or ideologically with the 'A' list activists, but pro-revolutionaries cannot stand in condemnation of fellow workers in struggle (even if we are critical) and especially given the current vengefull onslaught from the whole capitalist establishment.
There have been a number of much better posts and articles more recently on libcom dealing with the contradictions and appropriate responses but baboons was not one of them.
Perhaps more could be said about the contradictions not just in the 'riots and looting' but also in the responses of other workers affected - the only possible positive approach I've seen there sofar has been from London Solfed.
Miles and miles of endless
Miles and miles of endless dreary leninoid garbage, baboonish comparisons with situations of genuine scarcity...you've really lost the plot (if you ever had it): flaneur was being ironic, I guess. Your condemnations of the Branscombe looters, the most basic uncontroversial working class appropriation which only the most bourgeois commentators sneered at at the time, shows how utterly out of touch you are and always have been. The fact that you use "communist" language shows how the manipulation of such terminology means fuck-all; after all, Kautsky and Stalin also used communist language. You're talking in your sleep.
And when is the ICC
And when is the ICC going
If this was from people who'd never posted on this site before, you'd think they were Tories.
Quote: you really wouldn't
yes be RADat all costs :roll:
I'm throwing my weight behind the anti-russia quarter here. The sooner we pull our heads out of Lenin et al.'s asses the sooner we can begin to comprehend what is going on. Oi, David down Mare Street read Lenin's Imperialism the highest stage of Capitalism next time you riot! (this is a joke, please don;t get to upset and charge me with the maximum life sentence of offences against intellectualism).
This is a good point Red Marriot, and is much more relevant than comparisons to peasants in 1916 Russia. This should be used as a lesson in something....I'm not sure what yet though. When I have thought about it more (and i have more time), maybe I will unfold it further!.....
The gang truce point is
The gang truce point is interesting...I seem to remember there being a shooting in Croydon which was assumed to be gang-related? In the hysterical rush in which everything happened, I may have IPCC'd ( ;) ) those facts into a narrative though...
The gang problem in London is
The gang problem in London is overstated and although there are some bad things happening I'm not sure if things are any worse than when people got hysterical about gangs when I was at school, or a few years before I started secondary school when my school and the other school would have mass fights every week. To suggest that gang culture in London is like the gang culture in LA (as I understand it) is simply not true and I think the idea of gangs is another one used to demonise people on the streets and also to shut down debate.
A assembly member writes about Deptford...
jef costello wrote: The gang
This seems a bit anecdotal - the thing is, when I was at secondary school (mid/late 80s) there were very few gangs at all in my area that I remember. Which, of course, is also anecdotal, but I would say that, perhaps, over a longer space of time you can see how things have changed. According to this, now Waltham Forest is one of the worst areas in London for gangs...
It is anecdotal, but I
It is anecdotal, but I haven't done in-depth studies of the papers over the last 15-20 years, I just think that the scare stoires don't seem to have changed that much since I started reading the papers.
Some discussion on the
Some discussion on the riots.
A street discussion on the riots etc...Which wouldn't have happened otherwise.
And the last Circled A radio show is worth a listen too.
Show #15 (10.8.2011) London Riots Special
I thought it useful to try to
I thought it useful to try to show that there was more to looting than looting=positive by looking at how some class conscious anarcho-syndicalists approached a specific issue in revolutionary Russia and how some NOPD cops approached a specific issue in Katrina-struck New Orleans.
I support the ICC's position that the looters par excellence are the bourgeoisie who are looting the planet to the point of destruction.
I think that in contradiction to the riots in France in 2005 (followed by the very positive anti-CPE movement) the large chain shops in Britain acted as something of a lightning rod preventing more localised grief and damage. In the riot-torn banilieus of Paris (and elsewhere) there were no large shops or chain stores which meant that the local working class got the brunt of the violence.
As an anecdote, I was in a gang in Highbury and around the Angel in the early sixties and there were constant battles with other gangs, mayhem and murder. And we were all working.
what's your point.
what's your point.
baboon wrote: I thought it
I didn't know you were in the ICC.
Caiman del Barrio wrote: The
Caiman del Barrio
I'm not sure about Croydon, someone got shot there but I don't know whether it was gang related. I mean you could even question whether it was 'riot related', the media suddenly got in a rush to report everything and anything as part of a coherent series of events despite the often disparate nature of it all. One guy tried to rob a corner shop in Streatham on Sunday night and it was reported in the Evening Standard as RIOT, but are they really acting like people don't try and rob shops on the high street on a regular basis? It's like they just discovered bad things happen in London.
Regarding gangs there was a fight at Kings hospital A&E on the Sunday apparently between two gang members but what was more noticeable was perhaps the lack of gang related violence which leads me to towards the truce line. One thing I was thinking about though was related to something I once about the 2005 French riots which noted that alongside the dominant conflict of banlieue vs state (to be very reductionist) there was a lower running one (which I wouldn't actually call a conflict) of banlieue vs banlieue where there was a sense of trying to outdo each other say in number of burnt cars. In the case of London for example Brixton was hit on Sunday and then Peckham on Monday. So alongside being inspired by actions in other place there might have also been a desire to try and outdo them. Clearly not a dominant 'cause' of the rioting but maybe something that played a role. Dunno though really, just speculation.
Some people here have been
Some people here have been down on the banlieux riots in France in November 2005 and then compared them unfavourably with the " very positive" anti-CPE movement starting a few months later. But the separation is false: a lot of the most active students who launched the anti-CPE movement in the universities were directly inspired by the banlieux riots; also, there were as many, though different, contradictions in the anti-CPE movement as in the banlieux riots, as there always are in social movements, the Russian revolution included, of course. If you reduce things to your pet "correct" way to revolt you don't attempt to constantly dissect what is radical, what takes the struggle forward, and what represses the struggle. There is nothing fluid in this "correct line" dogma. It is usually a "party line" - ie the pressure of the collectivity, with its hierarchy of specialists in intellectual interpretation, insists that a fixed position, preferably with a public statement used to advertise the group, be imposed on the interpretation of the events.
Quote: there was a sense of
I'm sure I saw this in the Guardian et al. described as 'postcode rivalry' right around when the riots started spreading.
pathetic from the ICC,
pathetic from the ICC, fucking hell your as bad as the SP or something who i was with n a stall the other day and i was the only one defendin events (an unpopular stance with some people who came and talked to us i can tell you). Anyways a week later, 3000 arrests later and you still want to go around condemning people, well tis is a non-flaming forum and all that so ill keep schtum, but i know what my opinion is of that sort of behaviour from so called socialists.
oh good one, because no-ones thought of saying this cliche yet, its not just the same simplistic bollocks thats on every swp placard now,
Anyways, talk schmalk, i've heard enough pointleaa internet/and non-internet chatter from people not doing shit ths week to last a lifetime.
We have been very cautious
We have been very cautious about taking part in this thread because emotions run high when dealing with these issues. We spent some time drawing up a statement which made it very clear that we have absolutely no solidarity with the bourgeoisie's hysterical campaign against the rioters. We were impressed by Solfed's thoughtful statement and still feel that there is a basis for having a debate among revolutionaries in which a serious critique of looting can be accepted as part of the discussion. The argument that looting is an expression of class consciousness or a form of attack on commodity relations should be open to question without accusations that those who disagree are somehow on the side of the police. If things calm down a bit, perhaps the discussion can be developed. But if you want to criticise the ICC, refer to our statement and not to Baboon's post. Baboon is very close to us, but he is not a member of the ICC and does not take part in all our discussions. His initial post, focusing on a very different situation, was bound to get the reaction it did.
Quote: Samotnaf wrote : Some
I also think that it is not really relevant to distinguish one "good" movement anti-CPE and one "bad" the riots in the banlieux in 2005. both were contradictory, with positive and negative aspetcs...but each one in a very different way. and to see the nature of each one we have to see at the same time how they were linked (the general context, how the first inspired the second, etc...) and also how they were very different.
and I'm not sure the first inspired that much the second, maybe by building a context of social unrest, but the banlieux riots were in the Paris region and the places the more active in France for the student movement (yes the movement against CPE was not only that) for the last years are Rennes and Toulouse maybe as much as Paris. in Paris some people took part in both but maybe you are exagerating a bit that point and its influence on the anti-CPE movement (I'm not sure of that in the case of the Paris region, my point of view is influenced by the fact that I took part in it as a student in Besançon at the time...).
anyway I think a reason why militants and organisations often compare unfavourably riots with other movements is because they feel a lot more comfortable with the second, being able to express/lead/recruit, etc., in them and not that much in riots...this being a part of the complex/contradictory nature of both the riots and of more "directed" movement.