More tedious "reverse racism" whining

Submitted by meerov21 on April 20, 2018

Anti-Semitic and racist "protests" by American students.

...Identity politics takes over representation of members of their group as ultimate victims of society. As such victims, they demand benefits from their victimhood and see any criticism as intolerant hate speech. How is it possible that you can criticize a victim who fights for their life? Wouldn’t the victim always be right, and whatever they did – all is justified?

In November 2015, I got caught up in the midst of some violent student protests at one of the East Coast Ivy League universities. The protests started because someone had not banned Halloween costumes, which could have offended the feelings of some minorities. It quickly escalated into a powerful, though sometimes grotesque unrest on the ground of racial and gender identity politics. Students organized a “primal scream”. Marchers cried, screamed and berated their professors.

At other colleges, all the Whites were asked to leave the student center to grant the people of color a safe space....

Activists demanded to dilute the too "White" faculty, to introduce mandatory courses on "cultural and racial tolerance", to remove from the list of works of the University of "dead white men" and replace them with the works of blacks, women and gay authors.

I tried to engage, but got yelled at and told to get out, the White old male heterosexual. When I told them that I was also an immigrant from Israel, they shouted at me in explicit anti-Semitic statements, screaming “How many Palestinians have you killed?”.

I got a similar reaction, when I tried to talk to protesters at Columbia University and the New York University.

The whole generation of college administrators and lecturers has grown a on the concept of intersectionality (unity of interests of all oppressed minorities against the White-male-hetero-cis privileges). For half a century, along with serious research, whole departments of racial, African-American, female, gender and other studies have been developing ideologies, concepts and platforms of identity discourse and preparing their cadres.

The “new” in these protests was, that the Islamist identity was openly added to the list of persecuted intersectional racial and gender minorities. Islamist, because Islamism is an implementation of Muslim religious identity in politics.

Full text is available here
http://www.ng.ru/ng_religii/2017-03-15/12_417_usa.html

Michael Dorfman (Russian-American-Israeli journalist)

Fleur

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

You really are determined to be the poor oppressed white dude, aren't you?

comrade_emma

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

deleted

meerov21

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

"At other colleges, all the Whites were asked to leave the student center to grant the people of color a safe space...."

comrade_emma
Sounds like good praxis.

Some people have long convinced me here https://libcom.org/forums/theory/black-white-racists-both-are-disgusting-10032018 that there are no or very few supporters of racist attacks against white men among anarchists....

"I tried to engage, but got yelled at and told to get out, the White old male heterosexual. When I told them that I was also an immigrant from Israel, they shouted at me in explicit anti-Semitic statements, screaming “How many Palestinians have you killed?”."

comrade_emma
Again, I am doubtful of his version since he is clearly very biased. What were the "explicit anti-Semitic statements"?

Now you're trying to justify anti-Semitism! The accusation of an elderly Jewish immigrant that "he had killed Palestinians" (on the grounds that he just had come from Israel) was an act of blatant anti-Semitism!

His people and the people of my parents have suffered from the Holocaust, and I will not be tolerant of anti-Semites.

meerov21

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Fleur
You really are determined to be the poor oppressed white dude, aren't you?

You directly insulted me using abusive language when discussing the topic of racism elsewhere on this forum https://libcom.org/forums/theory/black-white-racists-both-are-disgusting-10032018?page=4 , so you don't deserve me talking to you. But I reserve the right to comment on your statements, if I deem it necessary.

comrade_emma

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

deleted

Fleur

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

You are absolutely definitely want to be the oppressed white dude. I said your opinions on racism are reactionary and bigoted. That's not abusive language, it's simply a statement of facts as I see them. Now if you want to feel abused and oppressed for being pulled up on your reactionary opinions, off you go and lick your wounds. It's pretty much what you want anyway, feeling so discriminated against as a cis white man. There's a whole big club of sad white men, rattling off their mewling complaints because the whole world doesn't revolve around them. The guy you posted up is a member. Tbh, it's just pretty damn boring.

meerov21

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

comrade_emma
I am not making excuses for anti-semitism

Of course you did. You justify anti-Semitism. You justify the dirty anti-Semites who attacked an elderly Jew only because he came from Israel and accused him of "killing Palestinians".

Furthermore, do you genuinely believe that the state of Israel can exist without the murdering of Palestinians,

The state of Israel (like many other States) has done much evil. Of course, I, as supporter of classless and stateless society know that. I'm not going to defend the state of Israel. But it has absolutely nothing to do with anti-Semitic insults. State policy has nothing to do with this man. He's a journalist, not a politician or a banker.

comrade_emma
he hates these students, their identity, the fact that they want their own spaces

Oh no! This man is very kind and does not hate them. But These people wanted to expel people of a different race from the University space and insulted Jews.

Me:
Some people have long convinced me here https://libcom.org/forums/theory/black-white-racists-both-are-disgusting-10032018 that there are no or very few supporters of racist attacks against white men among anarchists....

comrade_emma
There is no racism against "white men" because white men can not suffer from racism

Tell that fiction and the left nonsense to me. I lived in Israel, along with million of Ashkenazim from the former USSR. My superiors, the Eastern Jews (Moroccan, Iraqi), underpaid me and thousands of other Ashkenaz, forced me to work 12 hours and used racist insults against us. However, this does not negate the fact that other Ashkenazy oppressed workers-Moroccan.
Racism against "white men" exists: there were examples of this.

comrade_emma
I am not an anarchist

Great!

meerov21

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Fleur
You are absolutely definitely want to be the oppressed white dude. I said your opinions on racism are reactionary and bigoted. That's not abusive language, it's simply a statement of facts as I see them. Now if you want to feel abused and oppressed for being pulled up on your reactionary opinions, off you go and lick your wounds. It's pretty much what you want anyway, feeling so discriminated against as a cis white man. There's a whole big club of sad white men, rattling off their mewling complaints because the whole world doesn't revolve around them. The guy you posted up is a member. Tbh, it's just pretty damn boring.

Like I said before, I don't feel offended because entities like you can't insult me. I can't be offended by a cat or by the wind, and it's something like that, although I still have a hard time realizing that you're a human being. I just don't like being rude because it interferes with the discussion.

As for the fact that you're bored, I'm not interested in your feelings. But you have a choice. You can 1) to Read me and to be bored further 2) don't to read my texts 3) to Commit suicide. I'll take all three.

Fleur

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Sorry dreary, but your not the first obnoxious dude on the internet to tell me to kill myself, it's staggeringly unoriginal as an insult. Like I thought, your a sniveling toad who can't deal with people disagreeing with you. You probably interpret all disagreement with abuse, no wonder you feel so put upon.

Serge Forward

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

If someone is attacked for being an Israeli citizen (and the implied 'jewishness' that entails), whatever they may think about the Israeli state, then that can not be excused by calling it anti-zionism, or it is okay because it was a black person who said it. It's anti-semitism, pure and simple. And as anti-semitism is a form of racism, then clearly, a black person can be racist to a white person.

Noah Fence

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Serge Forward

If someone is attacked for being an Israeli citizen (and the implied 'jewishness' that entails), whatever they may think about the Israeli state, then that can not be excused by calling it anti-zionism, or it is okay because it was a black person who said it. It's anti-semitism, pure and simple. And as anti-semitism is a form of racism, then clearly, a black person can be racist to a white person.

Very true, but very often a good point is lost in a cascade of BS or is ignored because the person making the point is unpopular or is know to generally hold reactionary views.

meerov21

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Serge Forward
If someone is attacked for being an Israeli citizen (and the implied 'jewishness' that entails), whatever they may think about the Israeli state, then that can not be excused by calling it anti-zionism, or it is okay because it was a black person who said it. It's anti-semitism, pure and simple.

The first time I agree with you for 100% !

P.S. Groups of people claim that those who have white skin should leave because "white is a threat to the safety of everyone else." They tell an elderly Jewish immigrant (journalist) that he" killed Palestinians " and must be removed. I quote here the witness of the known journalist about these events. Someone can reject it on the grounds that this journalist is Jewish, but now I know where anti-racists should go.

Uncreative

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

This article is just an assortment of the usual far-right shite about an effette, hysterical student youth unable to cope with rational debate, and how white men are the REAL victims of intolerance because people sometimes get annoyed at them and they can no longer dress up as a native american chief at halloween. If people want to read that they can just go on twitter and search for #whitegenocide or whatever that frog was called or whatever, im not sure why this nonsense needs a libcom thread?

Also, don't tell people who disagree with you on the internet to committ suicide Meerov, it just makes you look like even more of a prick. You might not care about that, but people thinking you're a contemptible piece of shit will make them less likely to be convinced by your arguments... whatever they are. That white men are the real victims and students need to man up, or something?

Also also - inb4 the thread fully devolves into the "is racism a synonym for individual prejudice or does it describe a structural phenomena?" conversation that people apparently love to have.

Serge Forward

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Much as I have disagreements with Meerov, the criticism of him here is very poor, ranging from 'guilt by association' (that's what the far right, alt right, etc say) to add hominem attacks on him being 'old', 'white' and a 'man'. There's also a bit of apologism for anti-semitism thrown in for good measure. I see Libcom is getting classier by the minute.

comrade_emma

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

deleted

Fleur

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Ironically Dorfman writes mostly about prejudice against Russian speakers in Israel, which apparently is not identity politics. However other people organizing around the oppression they receive because of their identity, be it gender or race etc, is identity politics, apparently of the bad sort.

People objecting to being belittled and demeaned by racist costumes is bad. People wanting more representation in college texts, also bad. This is clearly the wrong kind of identity politics. Identity politics which center your own language and ethnicity is good though. What nonsense.

Noah Fence

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

It seems the left’s view of anti semitism is pretty fluid - non evidenced accusations of its disgusting ideology and practice are sometimes used to shut people down that others disagree with or simply don’t like whilst at other times it’s swept under the carpet leaving its practioners to continue to perpetuate it’s filthy ideas.
Sure, context is important but context should never be used to excuse those we have an affinity with and false accusations of anti semitism for the purpose of controlling people or outcomes is a filthy trick.

Edit: This is a general observation, I’m not here defending Meerov’s hysterics.

meerov21

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Also, don't tell people who disagree with you on the internet to committ suicide Meerov,

This behavior of yours is just hypocrisy. This man Fleur turns me with the word "ass", after which I politely ask to pay attention to the moderator and others on this rudeness. But, all are silent. He directly wanted insulted me using abusive language when discussing the topic of racism elsewhere on this forum https://libcom.org/forums/theory/black-white-racists-both-are-disgusting-10032018?page=4

I also didn't want him to commit suicide, but only told him about this possibility. He is not the creation of which I wish for anything.

But that's not the point. Here I am referring to typical manifestations of hypocrisy. Everything is built on hypocrisy Here:

1) When a group of people demands other people of a different race, people of a different skin color, "leave the University", it's a classic racist insult. It does not matter what color of skin those who require it, they can even be dark green or purple.

2) An elderly Jew, a migrant, a journalist, is subjected to racist insults, he is told without any reason that he "killed Palestinians". And then someone else can say that he is Alt-right, that I am "alt-right" and that in General it is "hysterics". So who then dares here to talk about the correctness and antiracism? You always like to insult Jews, don't you?

Fleur

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

This entity, as you described me, is a woman actually.

Noah Fence

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Hey Meerov, Just for clarity, I was not implying that your view of this incident is hysterics, if you read my post properly you’ll see I was describing hypocrisy around anti semitism as you were yourself.
However, having read a number of your threads I think that your views are mostly irrational and unbalanced. That’s just my opinion, I could be wrong?!!!

meerov21

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

comrade_emma It is not necessary to remove the posts from here, I have partly copied it. I will describe in detail in my articles this anti-Semitic incident. ;)

meerov21

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Noah Fence
Hey Meerov, Just for clarity, I was not implying that your view of this incident is hysterics, if you read my post properly you’ll see I was describing hypocrisy around anti semitism as you were yourself.
However, having read a number of your threads I think that your views are mostly irrational and unbalanced. That’s just my opinion, I could be wrong

Maybe I didn't understand you.

meerov21

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Fleur
This entity, as you described me, is a woman actually.

You can be a man, a woman, a transgender and even a Martian. It doesn't give you the right to try insult people. You have to apologize for insulting me and continuing to do so even though I drew your attention to the inadmissibility of your rudeness. Otherwise take it as it is.

jolasmo

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

meerov21

intersectionality (unity of interests of all oppressed minorities against the White-male-hetero-cis privileges)

[youtube]bKgWm5TNeBA[/youtube]

Fleur

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

What I said was that anyone who makes jokes about trigger warnings, ie mocking somebody who has PTSD, is an ass. I stand by that. Now if you want to take my criticism of your opinions as being abusive, then that's up to you but it is indicative of the "snowflake" behavior which you find do upsetting in others. However, you just proving your own point to be fallacious. You're feeling abused and oppressed by any criticism of your opinions. That's pretty much a textbook example of why people get so irritated by white people claiming to be victims of racism and then haughtily dismissing the oppression of other groups as mere identity politics.

jolasmo

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

meerov21

In November 2015, I got caught up in the midst of some violent student protests at one of the East Coast Ivy League universities. The protests started because someone had not banned Halloween costumes, which could have offended the feelings of some minorities. It quickly escalated into a powerful, though sometimes grotesque unrest on the ground of racial and gender identity politics. Students organized a “primal scream”. Marchers cried, screamed and berated their professors.

That isn't racist.

meerov21

At other colleges, all the Whites were asked to leave the student center to grant the people of color a safe space....

That isn't racist.

meerov21

Activists demanded to dilute the too "White" faculty, to introduce mandatory courses on "cultural and racial tolerance", to remove from the list of works of the University of "dead white men" and replace them with the works of blacks, women and gay authors.

That isn't racist.

meerov21

I tried to engage, but got yelled at and told to get out, the White old male heterosexual.

That isn't racist.

meerov21

When I told them that I was also an immigrant from Israel, they shouted at me in explicit anti-Semitic statements, screaming “How many Palestinians have you killed?”.
I got a similar reaction, when I tried to talk to protesters at Columbia University and the New York University.

That's completely reprehensible and I'm genuinely sorry you had to deal with that shit. Sadly left-wing antisemitism continues to be a problem in pretty much all sectors of leftist discourse. It's completely unacceptable. However, I'd question whether it has that much to do with contemporary anti-racist or feminist politics per se, given that this stuff has sadly been rife on the left for over a hundred years:

Bakunin

This whole Jewish world, comprising a single exploiting sect, a kind of blood sucking people, a kind of organic destructive collective parasite, going beyond not only the frontiers of states, but of political opinion, this world is now, at least for the most part, at the disposal of Marx on the one hand, and of Rothschild on the other... This may seem strange. What can there be in common between socialism and a leading bank? The point is that authoritarian socialism, Marxist communism, demands a strong centralisation of the state. And where there is centralisation of the state, there must necessarily be a central bank, and where such a bank exists, the parasitic Jewish nation, speculating with the Labour of the people, will be found.

meerov21

For half a century, along with serious research, whole departments of racial, African-American, female, gender and other studies have been developing ideologies, concepts and platforms of identity discourse and preparing their cadres.

That isn't racist.

meerov21

The “new” in these protests was, that the Islamist identity was openly added to the list of persecuted intersectional racial and gender minorities. Islamist, because Islamism is an implementation of Muslim religious identity in politics.

That isn't racist. (It's also pretty hard to believe. Do you have a source in English to back this up? Such as a statement from some American protesters or anything like that?)

jef costello

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

So you are upset that when you went somewhere you had explicitly been asked not to go, people didn't have any time for your explanation of why ypou should be there? Why did you go to a student thing anyway if you're not a student? Just to tell them how wrong they are? I am shocked and surprised that people react badly to this.

Asking how many palestinians you killed is clearly not right, but it doesn't make you right.

Anti-semitism is a problem, the left seems to have a bit of a fixation with Israel, which is hard to explain. I don't fully understand it but there is probably a mix of media attention anti-semitism and an easy 'bad-guy' narrative. I rremember when I was a kid asking a firend why he hated Israel, he said something like "One side is throwing side and the other side is shooting guns so it's obvious who is the bad guy" or at least that is how I understood it at the time. It is also mildly complicated by defenders of Israel using anti-semitism as a blanket response to any criticism of Israel. Although to be honest, while that hypocrisy is annoying it is also a pretty standard tactic, pretty similar to our poor old white friends like meerov. "Doing anything about racism is actually racist towards white people!" I don't know about meerov, I'll take his claims at face value, but a lot of the most vocal about anti-white racism are people who have never actually dealt with it.

Uncreative

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Serge Forward

criticism of him here is very poor

Good, then I've succesfully tailored the strength of my criticisms to match the strength of his arguments.

meerov21

Also, don't tell people who disagree with you on the internet to committ suicide Meerov,

This behavior of yours is just hypocrisy. This man Fleur turns me with the word "ass",

As Fleur says, she didn't call you an ass, she said that "anyone who makes jokes about trigger warnings, ie mocking somebody who has PTSD, is an ass". I think thats a fair comment, rather than an insult.

meerov21

I also didn't want him to commit suicide, but only told him about this possibility.

Oh, is this thread posted in the "Random suggestions of activities, apropos of nothing, which it is not impossible for people to engage in" forum? Then i would like to inform you of the possibility of going and fucking yourself. Of course, im not saying "go fuck yourself" to you, that would be a rude insult, im just informing you that thats a possible action you might engage in, similar to how you might do some knitting, or go for a long hike, or juggle crockery, or an infinite array of other activities. And now you are helpfully informed of another activity that it is possible for you to engage in! Hurrah. No need to thank me, Meerov.

meerov21

1) When a group of people demands other people of a different race, people of a different skin color, "leave the University", it's a classic racist insult. It does not matter what color of skin those who require it, they can even be dark green or purple.

Why were people asked to leave? "To create a safe space"? Thats meaningless. The author is just stringing together terms into a sentence-like agglomeration of words. What are the specifics of the events hes talking about? Was it, as the author implies by his lack of any detail on time limits or actual events or what the nature of these safe spaces were, a situation where white people were forever barred from the student centres and they were exclusively turned over to black students for their private use, forever? Seems unlikely (and if true, would be pretty crap politics). Was it a situation where some people wanted a meeting just for black students (caucus style), so they were given access for a bit and non-black students weren't allowed into the meeting because it wasnt a meeting they were invited to, ie something a hostile journo could expand into "Whites are now barred from the university!!!!!"? Because if it was that, thats just clearly not racism at all. Was it something else? Who knows! The author doesnt expand on it because for him and the target readership, the specifics of the events aren't what matter. "halloween ban, safe spaces, lol the left are silly and hysterical" is all you need to get from the article as far as they're concerned.

meerov21

2) An elderly Jew, a migrant, a journalist, is subjected to racist insults, he is told without any reason that he "killed Palestinians". And then someone else can say that he is Alt-right, that I am "alt-right" and that in General it is "hysterics". So who then dares here to talk about the correctness and antiracism?

Obviously if what he says about people accusing him of being directly personally responsible for the killing of Palestinians by virtue of his country of birth (and by extension, by virtue of being Jewish) is true, then clearly thats some idiots talking racist shite and theres no excuse for that.

And I didnt say he was alt right, or that you were. I said that the article was the same sort of shite that the far right talk about (which it is), and that its shite (which it also is). You (and the author of this article, and spiked magazine, et al) might think the far right are correct about the definitely-not-imaginary plague of effette, hysterical students who hate freedom, but thats up for you to decide.

meerov21

You always like to insult Jews, don't you?

Who is the "you" here?

meerov21

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

jolasmo: Bakunin wrote:
This whole Jewish world, comprising a single exploiting sect, a kind of blood sucking people,

Mikhail Bakunin was a great revolutionary theorist and practitioner of anarchism. He fought for the self-government of revolutionary communes and workers ' associations. At the same time Bakunin had dirty anti-Semitic ideas. We should see this figure as a whole, with all its advantages and disadvantages. Bakunin made and wrote a lot of great, but he also had this dirt. And in the case of racist students, I see a lot of dirt, but I don't see any anarchist potential. Did they fight for the uprising of the Commune against the government or for the Autonomous self-government of labor collectives? No.

Dorfman: At other colleges, all the Whites were asked to leave the student center to grant the people of color a safe space....

jolasmo
That isn't racist.

Tell that to white racists who "don't feel safe" in the presence of African-Americans and ask them to leave the restaurant or University and make some space "for white people only".

Mike Harman

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

jolasmo

given that this stuff has sadly been rife on the left for over a hundred years:

While Bakunin did say some anti-Semitic things, no-one has yet been able to find the original source for that quote - in fact the thread is literally about trying to find a source and running into a wall. So I don't think it's useful to then repeat it here as an example.

meerov21

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

In Russia, I am familiar with the anarchist historians who believe that many or some of Bakunin's anti-Semitic statements were indeed made by him.

Perhaps some anarchists shared these ideas. But in Russia Jewish anarchists used Bakunin's ideas. In 1905-1907 about 50% of Russian anarchists, whose activity was based on the ideas of Bakunin and Kropotkin were Jewish.

Another thing is that any man can have a lot of dirt. Bakunin along with a brilliant ideas spewed this abomination, so what? It is not an excuse for modern anti-Semites, such as these anti-Semites in universities who, by contrast, do not make an anarchist revolution.

radicalgraffiti

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Mike Harman

jolasmo

given that this stuff has sadly been rife on the left for over a hundred years:

While Bakunin did say some anti-Semitic things, no-one has yet been able to find the original source for that quote - in fact the thread is literally about trying to find a source and running into a wall. So I don't think it's useful to then repeat it here as an example.

according to this https://libcom.org/forums/history/bakunins-antisemitism-25082016?page=1#comment-584794 its from "Lettre aux Internationaux de Bologne. Pièces explicatives et justificatives No. 1" and "Rapports personnels avec Marx. Pièces justificatives No. 2."
which is in the Collected Works CD-ROM

the French Wikipedia references what seems to be the same quote https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikha%C3%AFl_Bakounine#Antis%C3%A9mitisme to Michel Bakounine, Œuvres complètes, éditions Champ libre, 1974, volume 2, L'Italie 1871-1872, page 109.

unfortunately the complete works does not appear to be available on the internet, but it does seem to be real

jolasmo

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

meerov21

Mikhail Bakunin was a great revolutionary theorist and practitioner of anarchism. He fought for the self-government of revolutionary communes and workers ' associations. At the same time Bakunin had dirty anti-Semitic ideas. We should see this figure as a whole, with all its advantages and disadvantages. Bakunin made and wrote a lot of great, but he also had this dirt. And in the case of racist students, I see a lot of dirt, but I don't see any anarchist potential. Did they fight for the uprising of the Commune against the government or for the Autonomous self-government of labor collectives? No.

Have you ever fought for the uprising of the Commune against the government, or for the Autonomous self-government of labour collectives?

meerov21

Tell that to white racists who "don't feel safe" in the presence of African-Americans and ask them to leave the restaurant or University and make some space "for white people only".

Why would I? That's a totally different type of demand. The fact that it can be expressed in formally similar language is neither here nor there. You can't simply ignore the context of racialised power dynamics at work here. In the same way that a trade union office is not the same sort of thing as an exclusive club for wealthy businessmen, a space reserved for black students to meet, discuss and organise is not the same sort of thing as a whites only student body.

no1

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

radicalgraffiti

according to this https://libcom.org/forums/history/bakunins-antisemitism-25082016?page=1#comment-584794 its from "Lettre aux Internationaux de Bologne. Pièces explicatives et justificatives No. 1" and "Rapports personnels avec Marx. Pièces justificatives No. 2."
which is in the Collected Works CD-ROM

the French Wikipedia references what seems to be the same quote https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikha%C3%AFl_Bakounine#Antis%C3%A9mitisme to Michel Bakounine, Œuvres complètes, éditions Champ libre, 1974, volume 2, L'Italie 1871-1872, page 109.

unfortunately the complete works does not appear to be available on the internet, but it does seem to be real

if you search google books, it does come up with that quote in the search page, but doesn't seem to want to show the actual book page 109, so can't ascertain its credibility and context. Here's the bit it shows (in French):

Eh bien, tout ce monde juif qui forme une seule secte exploitante, une sorte de peuple sangsue, un parasite collectif dévorant et organisé en lui-même, non seulement à travers les frontières des Etats, mais à travers même toutes les différences d'opinions politiques, ce monde est actuellement, en grande partie du moins, à la disposition de Marx d'un côté, et des Rothschild de l'autre. Je sais que les Rothschild, tout réactionnaires qu'ils sont, qu'ils doivent être, apprécient beaucoup les...

anyway, pretty horrible stuff........

meerov21

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

p.s.
I know that some will try to answer that black Americans have experienced centuries of oppression and they have the right to claim that they "do not feel safe when there is a white man in they place." Do you even know what that sounds like? An ordinary white guy from the family of a worker, an engineer or a clerk, hears a statement that he is dangerous for someone. He has nothing against black Americans, he works and studies 12 hours a day to get an education, he is our potential companion and he is told that he is dangerous simply because he is not dark enough. That's crazy.

And moreover, who do they call "white" at all? An Irish whose people have been subjected to terrible humiliation, genocide, violence and exploitation for centuries? A girl from a white worker family who grew up in an atmosphere of Patriarchal violence? A Jew whose grandparents were killed by Hitler? Are you okay?

Finally, our goal is to unite whites, blacks, Jews and any kind of students and workers, not to accept racist prejudices and various forms of racial exclusion and apartheid. The socially revolutionary idea is unity, not apartheid.

meerov21 wrote:
Mikhail Bakunin was a great revolutionary theorist and practitioner of anarchism. He fought for the self-government of revolutionary communes and workers ' associations. At the same time Bakunin had dirty anti-Semitic ideas. We should see this figure as a whole, with all its advantages and disadvantages. Bakunin made and wrote a lot of great, but he also had this dirt. And in the case of racist students, I see a lot of dirt, but I don't see any anarchist potential. Did they fight for the uprising of the Commune against the government or for the Autonomous self-government of labor collectives? No.

jolasmo
Have you ever fought for the uprising of the Commune against the government, or for the Autonomous self-government of labour collectives?

Your question is not directly related to the topic of discussion, but the answer is Yes. I participated in a strike of miners near the house of the government of Russia, I within six months helped the workers who seized machine-building plant in the city of Yasnogorsk and which were attacked by police, I tried to organize a network of the working resistance during a number of years, connecting fighting Autonomous collectives at factories in Rostov, Vyborg, Moscow. I was not alone for sure and also don't think I'm even in one millimeter closer to the achievements of Bakunin. I respect the great revolutionary and anarchist Bakunin, although at the same time I am disgusted with his anti-Semitism. And your students are just a bunch of racists who hate Jews.

Mike Harman

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

meerov21

know that some will try to answer that black Americans have experienced centuries of oppression and they have the right to claim that they "do not feel safe when there is a white man in they place."

If you tried to organise a meeting and someone tried to attend, then wrote a big article ranting about how racist you were, would you want to invite them to your next meeting? Given these kinds of apocryphal stories about student intolerance regularly get picked up by outlets like Breitbart you could reasonably expect such an article to generate right-wing backlash, possibly including doxxing members of the student org that organised the meeting in the first place. Not really conducive to holding political meetings 'safely'.

Fleur

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Just hypothetically, because the opening article is very poorly expressed, supposing there was a meeting organized by a black student caucus why would an elderly white journalist even really want to attend, let alone feel entitled to be there? Why did he feel the need to push his way into somewhere he wasn't invited? Does he gate crash weddings too? Show up at parent and baby groups, without kid, and just expecting to be found a space?Just because a something is a political meeting, it doesn't make it open to any random person who feels like showing up. This guy needs a serious lesson in being polite if you ask me. Someone should point out to Mr Entitled that it's not all about him.

meerov21

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org


Mike Harman
If you tried to organise a meeting and someone tried to attend, then wrote a big article ranting about how racist you were, would you want to invite them to your next meeting? Given these kinds of apocryphal stories about student intolerance regularly get picked up by outlets like Breitbart you could reasonably expect such an article to generate right-wing backlash,

I publish this note here, not In NY-Times which is read by hundreds of thousands of people.

As for Dorfman, as far as I know, he published this article after visiting most of universities, and in Russian, though in a large newspaper. What, he was supposed to keep quiet about it?

Oh, again, I don't have to tell the truth, because it can be beneficial to the "Alt-right"? Stalinists said this. They said: if you criticized Communist party and USSR, you are helping the capitalists. USSR opposes capitalists, and if you show that the USSR is shit, it can strengthen capitalists or just US.

But You know what? Fuck the USSR!

Anarchism has always been a universalist project. The truth is one for all - a society of self-government without classes and without the state, it is the right of everyone to be heard at the assembly (horizontal method of decision-making) direct action instead of participating in elections and in the judiciary of the state during social conflicts. This means unity of people.

If a person asks me to leave for a while because he wants to be alone, there is no problem. But if he really believes that people with my skin color and nose of a certain shape "are a threat to him" and in our presence this person "does not feel safe", then we must explain why he is not right. But if he strongly insists on it, he's an enemy.

And in this case it is not important what happened to his grandfather 200 years ago: I mean my distant relatives were killed by the Nazis, so what? I hate Nazis but Should i hate the Germans and ask them to leave the room? The horror of what is happening...

meerov21

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Fleur Does he gate crash weddings too? Show up at parent and baby groups, without kid, and just expecting to be found a space?

In your private home, or in your community of 5 people, you can follow your own rules. You can make a commune only for whites, only for blacks, and only for Jews. I don't like it at all, but at least it doesn't affect anyone directly. But the University is a large common space of people of different races. Nobody has the right to demand that people of a particular race is gone. It is apartheid and a direct attack on the people of another race.

Otherwise, it is necessary to arrange in universities "white days" and not to let there black, is that normal? Anarchists and socialists (even authoritarian socialists!) fought against such division or apartheid for the entire 20th century! And here are the people who like it.

radicalgraffiti

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

meerov21

Fleur Does he gate crash weddings too? Show up at parent and baby groups, without kid, and just expecting to be found a space?

In your private home, or in your community of 5 people, you can follow your own rules. You can make a commune only for whites, only for blacks, and only for Jews. I don't like it at all, but at least it doesn't affect anyone directly. But the University is a large common space of people of different races. Nobody has the right to demand that people of a particular race is gone. It is apartheid and a direct attack on the people of another race.

Otherwise, it is necessary to arrange in universities "white days" and not to let there black, is that normal? Anarchists and socialists (even authoritarian socialists!) fought against such division or apartheid for the entire 20th century! And here are the people who like it.

so i guess the workers should allow the bosses at there meetings when they are organising in there workplaces

Fleur

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

RG:
You beat me to it! :)

For one, you are correct and I wouldn't let you in my house, largely on account of the homophobia you've expressed in other threads. I've got a low threshold of tolerance for that sort of bullshit.

In addition, universities are not public spaces especially the ones mentioned by Dorfman, they are private colleges and unless you are part of the student body or faculty, they can ask you to leave. Given the weird obsession about students and student politics for the last few years, not to mention all the bullshit and lies written in the press, it's unsurprising that they asked a hostile journalist (who went on to write yet another hit piece) to leave. Also unsurprising is the petulant hissy fit about it from the journalist about being prevented from taking part in a closed meeting. Also not surprising the indignation of people being excluded from something which is really none of their fucking business in the first place.

Fleur

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Also, cut out your bullshit allusions to slavery and that what happened 200 years ago doesn't matter. You claim to be be well read in history, shut your trap on the subject until you've actually read a bit of American history. Structural anti-black racism is an enormous part of American life in 2018. Obviously you don't understand this, as I can glean from the previous thread you are clueless about it. You don't know what you're talking about and you're managing to make centuries of systematic oppression of black people all about you. You're completely absurd (that's me being nice.)

200 years ago? Yesterday a white supremacist went into a restaurant and shot and killed young black people, having targeted them for their race. Clearly this is on the same level as asking a white journalist to leave a black caucus meeting. You're complaints are just petty and foolish.

Fleur

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Admin:

Can I call him an ass yet?

infektfm

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

fuck antisemitism and fuck entitled white boys. Identity politics are limited, but there is something to be said about being able to organize around shared oppressions and experiences that are indeed identity specific. Its necessary and unavoidable honestly; there is white supremacy in the class. there is patriarchy in the class. We need to have at least a degree of honesty about that while trying to find a way to cohere movements

Steven.

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

meerov21, do you acknowledge that some of the working class is racist against people of colour, and that some of the male working class is sexist?

Beyond that, do you think that some sections of the working class do not have the problems of people of colour and women at the forefront of their minds?

If your answer is "yes" to any of these questions, then you must acknowledge the right of people of colour, women and other oppressed groups to be able to organise autonomously, so that they can at least ensure that issues which may just be of primary concern to them, but maybe pushed aside within larger groups, are addressed.

You're using some silly examples from the student movement, like much of the far right, and right-wing media are doing recently.

But autonomous organising within the working class movement has been an important, everyday part of much of the movement for half a century. For example in my workplace, we have self-organised groups for women, LGBT workers and people of colour. This is extremely helpful for all of us, as these groups organise on the half of all workers, however they can prioritise issues of particular import to their members, which often we wouldn't have time to address, say in a general union meeting where we are normally talking about "bigger" picture issues like pay, working hours and pensions. And ensures that issues like racial discrimination, sexual harassment and the like are not just ignored.

On a related note, aren't you in Russia? Which is, what, 99% or more white? Do you really think you are in possession of the REAL TRUTH, whereas all the rest of us who actually live in diverse countries where there are people of colour, are the ones who don't know what we are talking about?

meerov21

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

radicalgraffiti
me wrote:
Fleur Does he gate crash weddings too? Show up at parent and baby groups, without kid, and just expecting to be found a space?
In your private home, or in your community of 5 people, you can follow your own rules. You can make a commune only for whites, only for blacks, and only for Jews. I don't like it at all, but at least it doesn't affect anyone directly. But the University is a large common space of people of different races. Nobody has the right to demand that people of a particular race is gone. It is apartheid and a direct attack on the people of another race.

Otherwise, it is necessary to arrange in universities "white days" and not to let there black, is that normal? Anarchists and socialists (even authoritarian socialists!) fought against such division or apartheid for the entire 20th century! And here are the people who like it.

radicalgraffiti
so i guess the workers should allow the bosses at there meetings when they are organising in there workplaces

What a stupid monstrous racist and anti-Semitic comparison! White or Jewish workers, students, intellectuals who earn their living by their own labor and journalists are not bosses and exploiters!
What?! So "Any Jew is exploiter" ?!

jolasmo

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

meerov21

p.s.
I know that some will try to answer that black Americans have experienced centuries of oppression and they have the right to claim that they "do not feel safe when there is a white man in they place." Do you even know what that sounds like? An ordinary white guy from the family of a worker, an engineer or a clerk, hears a statement that he is dangerous for someone. He has nothing against black Americans, he works and studies 12 hours a day to get an education, he is our potential companion and he is told that he is dangerous simply because he is not dark enough. That's crazy

You know, a ps normally goes at the end of a communication and not at the start.

meerov21

And moreover, who do they call "white" at all? An Irish whose people have been subjected to terrible humiliation, genocide, violence and exploitation for centuries? A girl from a white worker family who grew up in an atmosphere of Patriarchal violence? A Jew whose grandparents were killed by Hitler?

It's almost like whiteness is a form of systematic social violence and not a fixed innate identity at all.

meerov21

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

meerov21, do you acknowledge that some of the working class is racist against people of colour, and that some of the male working class is sexist?

For sure. Similarly, many color workers are racist and dislike white workers.

If your answer is "yes" to any of these questions, then you must acknowledge the right of people of colour, women and other oppressed groups to be able to organise autonomously,

First, then you must recognize the right of Irish workers and students, or workers of German descent or jews gather separately. Everyone should have equal rights and people should not be obliged to present their suffering as arguments.

Secondly There is a huge difference between the different groups of workers that organize themselves for a common class struggle and a bunch of racists who demand that whites and Jews leave the University as " blacks don't feel safe when they see a whites". This is a racist and anti-Semitic attack. When in 1905 or 1906 the Historic IWW organized a huge strike (as I remember in NY), 24 ethnic groups of workers elected their delegates. But they elected them in the COMMON councils of DEPUTIES for common goals in the struggle against the bosses. And none of them said that he was "afraid of white workers."

On a related note, aren't you in Russia? Which is, what, 99% or more white? Do you really think you are in possession of the REAL TRUTH, whereas all the rest of us who actually live in diverse countries where there are people of colour, are the ones who don't know what we are talking about?.

What?! 20% of the population of Russia are Muslim, about 10 million illegal migrants from Central Asia work in Russia, and as for me I am a Jew (by origin) from childhood familiar with anti-Semitism. What are you trying to tell me?

meerov21

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

I have seen that many people here justify anti-Semitic attacks and insult Jews by comparing Jews with exploiters. (as radicalgraffiti).

Fleur

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

What a stupid monstrous racist and anti-Semitic comparison! White or Jewish workers, students, intellectuals who earn their living by their own labor and journalists are not bosses and exploiters!
What?! So "Any Jew is exploiter" ?!

What the fuck are you talking about? Nobody has said anything of the sort. Accusing RG of anti-semitism is totally out of order.

Steven.

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

meerov21

many color workers are racist and dislike white workers.

What is a "color" worker?

And what is your evidence for this?

If your answer is "yes" to any of these questions, then you must acknowledge the right of people of colour, women and other oppressed groups to be able to organise autonomously,

First, then you must recognize the right of Irish workers and students, or workers of German descent or jews gather separately.

Firstly, there are plenty of Irish community groups. Does that mean you think that these groups are inherently "racist" against anyone who isn't Irish?

There are also plenty of Jewish groups. Do you think that is a problem?

If not, why are Jewish people and Irish people allowed to meet independently, but black people aren't?

Secondly if you think that people of German descent experience the same sort of discrimination as black people in Western countries please provide evidence for that.

Secondly There is a huge difference between the different groups of workers that organize themselves for a common class struggle

so are you saying it is okay then for black workers/women workers etc to organise independently?

and a bunch of racists who demand that whites and Jews leave the University

you have not provided any evidence this actually happened. So please provide evidence this happened (the article you link to does not do this, it does not name the date it supposedly happened, any info about who supposedly did it, or give any context to the events. I tried to have a look to independently verify what that journalist said, however I couldn't even find info about Halloween-related protests in November 2016, I just found mentions of ones in November 2015.

as " blacks don't feel safe when they see a whites"

Again what is your evidence that anyone said this?

When in 1905 or 1906 the Historic IWW organized a huge strike (as I remember in NY), 24 ethnic groups of workers elected their delegates. But they elected them in the COMMON councils of DEPUTIES for common goals in the struggle against the bosses. And none of them said that he was "afraid of white workers."

Firstly I doubt your knowledge of history here, what strike do you claim you are talking about?

Regardless, in subsequent disputes the IWW did organise multiethnic delegate councils. But that's irrelevant here. And as for your final comment saying that people are "afraid of white workers", who has said that? You are just making up bullshit

On a related note, aren't you in Russia? Which is, what, 99% or more white? Do you really think you are in possession of the REAL TRUTH, whereas all the rest of us who actually live in diverse countries where there are people of colour, are the ones who don't know what we are talking about?.

What?! 20% of the population of Russia are Muslim, about 10 million illegal migrants from Central Asia work in Russia, and as for me I am a Jew (by origin) from childhood familiar with anti-Semitism. What are you trying to tell me?

So, you reckon you have lots of black people in Russia do you? How many? How many black workers are in your workplace, for example? As you claim to have such great knowledge of black people and how racist they are, this would be useful information. At my work I have around 2000 black colleagues. Not a single one has ever said they were afraid of white workers, or has ever said or done anything which has been alleged was "anti-white". So I'm interested to see your evidence and hear about your personal experience of this

meerov21

I have seen that many people here justify anti-Semitic attacks and insult Jews by comparing Jews with exploiters. (as radicalgraffiti).

Again please provide your evidence for this

radicalgraffiti

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

meerov21

I have seen that many people here justify anti-Semitic attacks and insult Jews by comparing Jews with exploiters. (as radicalgraffiti).

weird, i though i was replying to you complaining about POC having meetings without white people so they could discuss racism?

meerov21

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Steven.
You are just making up bullshit

First of all, you have to watch your behavior and words.
Also You are the person who censors my texts, now you have done it a second time, changing the title of the article. As far as I know, Laura Akay already accused you of censorship. Watch your behavior.

me:
many color workers are racist and dislike white workers.

What is a "color" worker?

Anyone who thinks he's not white and has a negative attitude towards white.
Negative attitudes, hatred or racism towards people of different skin colors are widespread among different population groups.
Among black Americans 31% think most blacks are racist, while 24% consider most whites racist and 15% view most Hispanics that way.
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/lifestyle/general_lifestyle/july_2013/more_americans_view_blacks_as_racist_than_whites_hispanics

Firstly, there are plenty of Irish community groups. Does that mean you think that these groups are inherently "racist" against anyone who isn't Irish?

No. But you repeat the arguments to which I have already answered. There is no problem if Irish, Jews, African-Americans or the Koreans come together. The problem arises when they demand that people with a different skin color leave the public space (factory or university, because in the presence of people with a different skin color "they do not feel safe").

and a bunch of racists who demand that whites and Jews leave the University
you have not provided any evidence this actually happened.

I brought here this testimony of a well-known journalist Michael Dorfman who wrote an article about this in one of the largest Russian newspapers:

"At other colleges, all the Whites were asked to leave the student center to grant the people of color a safe space.... " "I tried to engage, but got yelled at and told to get out, the White old male heterosexual. When I told them that I was also an immigrant from Israel, they shouted at me in explicit anti-Semitic statements, screaming “How many Palestinians have you killed?”.

I tried to have a look to independently verify what that journalist said, however I couldn't even find info about Halloween-related protests in November 2016, I just found mentions of ones in November 2015.

Perhaps there is an error in the date, may be it's about the events of 2016 - 2017. If you did not find something there, look for it better. My link is legitimate. Also I wrote to the journalist to comment on it here.

me:
When in 1905 or 1906 the Historic IWW organized a huge strike (as I remember in NY), 24 ethnic groups of workers elected their delegates. But they elected them in the COMMON councils of DEPUTIES for common goals in the struggle against the bosses. And none of them said that he was "afraid of white workers."

Firstly I doubt your knowledge of history here, what strike do you claim you are talking about?

Lawrence, Mass 1912
Video 19.00 -22.00
Elderly man: We formed a General Committee and committees of each nationality, we had 24 nationalities.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ciHHJeCgWk

But that's irrelevant here.

That's for sure relevant here. It's one thing when social groups are organized on the basis of different identities for a common class and social-revolutionary struggle. It is a completely different matter when a group requires the removal of people from a different race from a public place (university or factory).

So, you reckon you have lots of black people in Russia do you? How many? How many black workers are in your workplace, for example? As you claim to have such great knowledge of black people and how racist they are, this would be useful information. At my work I have around 2000 black colleagues. Not a single one has ever said they were afraid of white workers, or has ever said or done anything which has been alleged was "anti-white". So I'm interested to see your evidence and hear about your personal experience of this

Firstly, I use above the statistics, the sociological survey.
Secondly, I worked with people of different races and ethnic groups (Russians, Jews of different ethnic groups, Arabs, Caucasians, Turks, Kurds) and I often saw racist attitudes in all these groups. I did not work with black Americans. My friend, a Jew, a member of Occupy Wall Street, worked with them in NY, with African-American workers and according to him, almost all of them were anti-white racists, although at the same time their racism was not as fanatical as the racism of white Suprematists.

meerov21

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

meerov21 wrote:
I have seen that many people here justify anti-Semitic attacks and insult Jews by comparing Jews with exploiters. (as radicalgraffiti).

Steven.
Again please provide your evidence for this

1 Let me remind you, Dorfman's article is about trying to expel whites and Jews.
me wrote:

"In your private home, or in your community of 5 people, you can follow your own rules. You can make a commune only for whites, only for blacks, and only for Jews. I don't like it at all, but at least it doesn't affect anyone directly. But the University is a large common space of people of different races. Nobody has the right to demand that people of a particular race is gone. It is apartheid and a direct attack on the people of another race.

Otherwise, it is necessary to arrange in universities "white days" and not to let there black, is that normal? Anarchists and socialists (even authoritarian socialists!) fought against such division or apartheid for the entire 20th century! And here are the people who like it."

radicalgraffiti
so i guess the workers should allow the bosses at there meetings when they are organising in there workplaces

Direct identification of white and Jews with bosses. Classical manifestation of anti-Semitism.

2. "At other colleges, all the Whites were asked to leave the student center to grant the people of color a safe space...."

comrade_emma
Sounds like good praxis.

"I tried to engage, but got yelled at and told to get out, the White old male heterosexual. When I told them that I was also an immigrant from Israel, they shouted at me in explicit anti-Semitic statements, screaming “How many Palestinians have you killed?”."

comrade_emma
Again, I am doubtful of his version since he is clearly very biased. What were the "explicit anti-Semitic statements"?

An attempt to justify anti-Semitism by reference to Israeli policies.This was noticed not only by me, so she began to delete her comments.

meerov21

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

"More tedious "reverse racism" whining"

I pay attention to the fact of censorship. I do not write about any "reverse racism".
The second time Steven changes the title of the notes that I publish, for now He turns thet into offensive. This is the freedom of speech that he demonstrates. As for me, this is a fact of deliberate offensive censorship.

meerov21

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

"More tedious "reverse racism" whining"

I pay attention to the fact of censorship. I do not write about any "reverse racism".
The second time Steven changes the title of the notes that I publish, for now He turns thet into offensive. This is the "freedom of speech" that he demonstrates. As for me, this is a fact of deliberate offensive censorship.

Steven.

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

meerov21

Steven.
You are just making up bullshit

First of all, you have to watch your behavior and words.

no I do not, you are the one who needs to watch your behaviour and words, because libcom is a platform for workers who want a revolution against capitalism, racism and sexism. Not people who simply spout alt right talking points with no evidence

Also You are the person who censors my texts, now you have done it a second time, changing the title of the article. As far as I know, Laura Akay already accused you of censorship. Watch your behavior.

if you want to post racist shit like this which doesn't get edited, then post it on storm front instead. They won't edit your thread titles to make you look stupid, but we will.

me:
many color workers are racist and dislike white workers.

What is a "color" worker?

Anyone who thinks he's not white and has a negative attitude towards white.

Well this is a completely idiotic statement, which doesn't make any sense.

Negative attitudes, hatred or racism towards people of different skin colors are widespread among different population groups.
Among black Americans 31% think most blacks are racist, while 24% consider most whites racist and 15% view most Hispanics that way.
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/lifestyle/general_lifestyle/july_2013/more_americans_view_blacks_as_racist_than_whites_hispanics

Did you read the methodology for that survey? It's complete nonsense, it was a telephone survey of 1000 people from five years ago, and there is no indication of what question was asked and how, nor of how many African-Americans were asked that question.

Firstly, there are plenty of Irish community groups. Does that mean you think that these groups are inherently "racist" against anyone who isn't Irish?

No. But you repeat the arguments to which I have already answered. There is no problem if Irish, Jews, African-Americans or the Koreans come together. The problem arises when they demand that people with a different skin color leave the public space (factory or university, because in the presence of people with a different skin color "they do not feel safe").

Okay so you're saying it's fine to organise autonomously.

But you are saying it is wrong for black people to tell white people to leave factories and universities.

So in that case please give us some examples of where this is happened. This is such a big issue it should be no problem of you to find say just a tiny handful of examples, so please let me know:
– 10 examples of black workers demanding white workers leave factories because they "do not feel safe"
– 10 examples of black students demanding white students leave universities because they "do not feel safe" - and of course if ever this actually happened there would be specific information available including what date it happened, what university it was at, and how many people were involved.

The bullshit article you link to in the OP includes none of this information. It also doesn't say that black people were demanding white people leave university, just the reporter himself.

and a bunch of racists who demand that whites and Jews leave the University
you have not provided any evidence this actually happened.

I brought here this testimony of a well-known journalist Michael Dorfman who wrote an article about this in one of the largest Russian newspapers:

He claims this happened in November 2016, but I can find no confirmation of this. Like I said protests related to this subject happened in 2015. If he can't remember the year only a few months later that makes me doubt the whole rest of his account. And also his account doesn't claim that whites or Jews were told to leave the University. Just that he, personally, was told to "get out".

I don't know about you or your political group, but I know that meetings I have been in have told right-wing journalists to get the fuck out. Not because they were white Jewish, but because they were journalists.

Perhaps there is an error in the date, may be it's about the events of 2016 - 2017. If you did not find something there, look for it better. My link is legitimate. Also I wrote to the journalist to comment on it here.

So you're saying that your link is legitimate, but that the year might be wrong. If the journalist got the year wrong, how reliable is the article?

Also explaining the year is important because it would explain the context of the demonstrations. As it appears that your original post is also lying about the nature of these protests.

For example there were protests at Yale, where the reporter says he went, in November 2015, because some white students wore racist Halloween costumes. White students also banned black women from their Halloween party, saying only white women were allowed. There were demonstrations against this by both black and white antiracist students, as you can see from photos of the protests: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2015/11/05/a-confrontation-over-race-at-yale-hundreds-of-students-demand-answers-from-the-schools-first-black-dean/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.86817f881579

As you can see no one is calling for the removal of white people or Jews, and white people are taking part in the demonstrations.

Firstly I doubt your knowledge of history here, what strike do you claim you are talking about?

Lawrence, Mass 1912

That's right: not in New York, and not in 1905/6

But that's irrelevant here.

That's for sure relevant here. It's one thing when social groups are organized on the basis of different identities for a common class and social-revolutionary struggle. It is a completely different matter when a group requires the removal of people from a different race from a public place (university or factory).

Again your second matter here is completely made up.

Firstly, I use above the statistics, the sociological survey.
Secondly, I worked with people of different races and ethnic groups (Russians, Jews of different ethnic groups, Arabs, Caucasians, Turks, Kurds) and I often saw racist attitudes in all these groups. I did not work with black Americans. My friend, a Jew, a member of Occupy Wall Street, worked with them in NY, with African-American workers and according to him, almost all of them were anti-white racists, although at the same time their racism was not as fanatical as the racism of white Suprematists.

That's hilarious, so your entire knowledge of black people comes from what your racist friend told you, and what you read in Russian newspapers. Do you think that maybe that's not a great basis for forming opinions on a group of a couple of billion people?

Firstly I doubt your friend even told you that (as why the hell would people who didn't like white people spend time with Occupy Wall Street – mostly a group of white people so annoying I wouldn't spend time with them if you paid me). But if he did, you can get him to come on here and back up his argument.

radicalgraffiti

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

meerov21

radicalgraffiti
so i guess the workers should allow the bosses at there meetings when they are organising in there workplaces

Direct identification of white and Jews with bosses. Classical manifestation of anti-Semitism.

if i said anything about jew quote it, cause otherwise it seems like you are just calling "anti-Semitism" to shut down discussion
are you claiming that white people not an group that is on average better of than people of other races in America and that being the case dont have the experience of what racism is like for black people?

meerov21

2. "At other colleges, all the Whites were asked to leave the student center to grant the people of color a safe space...."

comrade_emma
Sounds like good praxis.

"I tried to engage, but got yelled at and told to get out, the White old male heterosexual. When I told them that I was also an immigrant from Israel, they shouted at me in explicit anti-Semitic statements, screaming “How many Palestinians have you killed?”."

comrade_emma
Again, I am doubtful of his version since he is clearly very biased. What were the "explicit anti-Semitic statements"?

An attempt to justify anti-Semitism by reference to Israeli policies.This was noticed not only by me, so she began to delete her comments.

tbh shouting “How many Palestinians have you killed?”." at someone who has just said they came from Israel sounds like a nationalist statement rather than an anti-Semitic one like accusing Serbs of being genocidal maniacs, of cause they may be motivated by anti-Semitism in their opposition to Israel,, and they may have said other more blatantly anti-Semitic things, but based only on whats actually written down calling emma a supporter of anti-Semitism seems to be jumping to conclusions

Fleur

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

So supposing this thing actually happened, white people were asked to leave the student center. Not the university, not the campus, not classes but the student center, in which a meeting was about to take place. You know, one of those places in universities specifically set aside for student meetings.Presumably this is a center/student union meeting room, similar to ones in colleges I have been familiar with, where all kinds of groups gather to have meetings. Meetings which are specific to those groups. Meetings in which unaffiliated random members of the general public cannot reasonably be expected to able to sit in on.

So, I wander off to my local college and hang out in their common room and a meeting for the student hockey society is about to take place and they decide to ask me to leave because I'm not a hockey player, not even a student and quite frankly they don't know who the fuck I am and they're concerned that a rival college's hockey team have been trying to find out what their game strategy is and not knowing me from Adam, they may be worried that I might be actively hostile to them and even write up their defense tactics in the rival student paper.Obviously they are going to ask me to leave.

I could put up a fuss about this, explain that I'm not a bad hockey spy. I could say that I'm being actively discriminated against because I am not on their hockey team. I could start yelling something or other about freedom of speech and my right to assemble where I please but all these things would make me look like a right prick because I wasn't invited to this party in the first place and what they do in there is none of my business.

People have the right to exclude anyone the fuck they like from a meeting and if a group of black students decide to exclude an entirely unknown white guy from a meeting about racism that is totally reasonable.He had no inherent right to be there in the first place. Michael Dorfman is just a spoiled, entitled, petulant fool who threw a tantrum because he couldn't just barge into someone else's business. What a dick.

Fleur

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

As an aside, who is Laura Akay?

Also, I've not exactly heard many things about the quality of Russian newspapers. In this new cold war era *sigh* American media take pot shots at Russians, Russians sling mud back. It's all very tedious and difficult to believe in the veracity of any of it.

meerov21

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Steven.
no I do not, you are the one who needs to watch your behaviour and words, because libcom is a platform for workers who want a revolution against capitalism, racism and sexism. Not people who simply spout alt right talking points with no evidence

me
Also You are the person who censors my texts, now you have done it a second time, changing the title of the article. As far as I know, Laura Akay already accused you of censorship. Watch your behavior.

if you want to post racist shit like this which doesn't get edited, then post it on storm front instead. They won't edit your thread titles to make you look stupid, but we will.

I see. In that case, I will not talk to you, although I reserve the right to comment on your funny statements.

I'll just say a few very simple things. I use the comments of a well-known American-Russian-Israeli journalist (Jewish emigrant) in a major Russian newspaper and a sociological survey.

This person who continuously uses insults (though I did not insult him in any way), who censors my texts, giving them offensive headlines, and who has been repeatedly accused of censorship by different people, including the IWA Secretary Lora Akay, says that I, a journalist Michael Dorfman, and sociologists just lie or everything we said is a result of our fantasies.

I see no point in commenting on the words of such a person.

Fleur

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Of course you see no point of commenting, you have no credible argument or answers. You still owe RG an apology for that totally unwarranted accusation of anti-semitism.

Serge Forward

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

This thread has taken a quite shocking turn - seriously, welcome to dogpile central.

I have disagreements with some of what Meerov says (maybe, in part, due to issues related to language) but some of his criticisms of anti-oppression politics are nevertheless valid. However, the vitriol he's received in this thread, and referring to him as 'alt-right', etc, for being critical of certain elements of anti-oppression politics is reminiscent of the days when anyone who criticised the Soviet Union was an imperialist, a CIA stooge or a fascist. The responses here are probably more damning of the people making them - including whichever admin changed the title - than the person they are attacking. It's interesting (and disturbing) to see the changes over the last few years, since 'anti-oppression politics' became the big 'in' thing. It's just like watching a sub-Maoist sect on crack. Well done everyone.

radicalgraffiti

tbh shouting “How many Palestinians have you killed?”." at someone who has just said they came from Israel sounds like a nationalist statement rather than an anti-Semitic one

It may well be nationalist but it's also bog-standard anti-Semitism, and radicalgraffiti is acting as an apologist for it. On the issue of BME people holding meetings for BME people, I cannot see how any libertarian communist could have an issue with that as any oppressed group needs to self-organise. However, if it were the case that white or Jewish people were being evicted from a mixed communal space, then this smacks of reverse segregationism, more in the vein of Louis Farrakhan, and sure to play into the hands of the far right. Any serious anarchist communist should give that kind of nonsense short shrift. I do realise segregationism has long been an issue in the US but people who claim to be revolutionaries really shouldn't be supporting that kind of thing.

Mike Harman

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Serge Forward

However, if it were the case that white or Jewish people were being evicted from a mixed communal space

What would you do if a white, jewish journalist from the Mail or Times turned up at an ACG meeting?

Fleur

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Ffs, no university demanded that the white students had to leave, it just didn't happen, we would all have heard about it if we did. For one thing these Ivy League colleges are so white you could get snow blind just hanging around them, so it would be a ghost town if this happened. Then the media would be all over it because bitching about students is the biggest non-story in the American press.Something like that would distract the media from even the latest Kardashian story. There would be pundits with opinions on every channel, counter demonstrations - which would get media interest, Jordan Peterson would have written a whole book about it and would be doing a campus tour to promote it as we speak. Then the ADL and B'nai B'rith would be on the scene. Social media would be ablaze, most likely the black students involved would be vilified and probably doxed. Back out in the real world, not Meerovland, if someone even so much as complains about campus racism the US media are all over it, trotting out people to defend the US education system against these things. It's just another manifestation of the media with it's head up it's ass about snowflake-coddled-identity politics riddled-feminist-LGBT rights wanting-antiracist commies that it seems to think is going on on US campuses. The fact that this particular event is not traceable in any other media source is very telling. Meanwhile actual racist threats and assaults have gone up. Go figure.

Some unknown journalist was asked to leave a meeting. I don't think it was unreasonable that students kicked a journo out, dollars to donuts they'd only go and write a hit piece anyway.

Fwiw, no-one has called Meerov alt-right. but that he's spouting the talking points of the alt-right. The alt-right have been very, very clever at disseminating their message and the complete non-issues they have been riding the wave of - discrimination against white people, white men in particular, straight people - have now made their way into the mainstream and are being picked up by people outside of their ideological bubble.If you can't tell when you're being manipulated, then you have a problem.

Serge Forward

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Mike Harman

What would you do if a white, jewish journalist from the Mail or Times turned up at an ACG meeting?

The fact that you have to ask such a ridiculous question shows the patent idiocy of this kind of politics. You know the answer to this but feel free to insult, as is your style. I could also ask you how you'd feel if a BME boss turned up to any meeting you were at? I would hope and expect you've not yet gone quite so far up the arse of identity politics to think that was okay.

Point is, BME only meetings is no issue and can be a good, sometimes necessary thing. But segregating what is a mixed communal space is reactionary bollocks.

Steven.

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Serge Forward

however, the vitriol he's received in this thread, and referring to him as 'alt-right',

Who has done that?

I'll skip over the next bit of your post where you have a go at me (although I must say in general I'm concerned about the fact you think it's more important to support someone who it seems has never met a single black person, who thinks that most black people and "color people" are antiwhite racists, and are more racist than white people, who is making up and repeating nonsense about black racists demanding white workers be removed from factories because they don't feel safe, than supporting those arguing against him and trying to point out that white racists are bigger problem)

But I will address your next comment where you contradict yourself:

On the issue of BME people holding meetings for BME people, I cannot see how any libertarian communist could have an issue with that as any oppressed group needs to self-organise.

Exactly, this is basically the point all of us are making to meerov.

However, if it were the case that white or Jewish people were being evicted from a mixed communal space, then this smacks of reverse segregationism, more in the vein of Louis Farrakhan, and sure to play into the hands of the far right. Any serious anarchist communist should give that kind of nonsense short shrift. I do realise segregationism has long been an issue in the US but people who claim to be revolutionaries really shouldn't be supporting that kind of thing.

now here what is it you are referring to? The only concrete examples the journalist gives 2, which are problematic in that they don't specify dates, times or specifics about what happened. The events are also not verified by anyone else, there are numerous other factual inaccuracies and outright lies in the article (like saying that "Islamist" is now a protected characteristic like religious belief). So the 2 examples he gives are that:
– one time one person told him to "get out"
– on one occasion black students were due to hold a meeting at a student centre (and there are specifics but it seems like there were still white students present so they asked them to leave)

How in your view is one person telling a journalist to leave something that Farrakhan would do? (Especially as the photos of demonstrations I have seen, from a year before when the journalist is talking about, are multiracial demonstrations) I've certainly seen white anarchists do a lot worse to journalists (like in Greece I have seen journalists attacked, had fireworks thrown at them etc)

and on the second point, if you think black people should be able to meet and organise autonomously, then how on earth do you think they can do this if white people won't leave the room?

Steven.

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Meerov, I challenged you to provide evidence backing up the racist bullshit you have been posting, for example your claim that black racists have demanded that white workers leave factories because they made them feel unsafe.

However you have responded:
meerov21

I see no point in commenting on the words of such a person.

we did not set up this website for people to post racist lies, so if you do not give evidence for your completely false claims, then you're going to get banned

Mike Harman

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Serge Forward

Mike Harman

What would you do if a white, jewish journalist from the Mail or Times turned up at an ACG meeting?

The fact that you have to ask such a ridiculous question shows the patent idiocy of this kind of politics. You know the answer to this but feel free to insult, as is your style. I could also ask you how you'd feel if a BME boss turned up to any meeting you were at? I would hope and expect you've not yet gone quite so far up the arse of identity politics to think that was okay.

But you said:
Serge Forward

However, if it were the case that white or Jewish people were being evicted from a mixed communal space

Are you aware of this happening? If not then why insist on such an outlandish hypothetical as the basis of discussion?

Serge Forward

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Steven.

if you think black people should be able to meet and organise autonomously, then how on earth do you think they can do this if white people won't leave the room?

As I understood it, we're not talking about white people leaving the room so a BME meeting can take place, we're talking about segregating a whole student centre to make some kind of radical point. Although Fleur (and now Mike Harmon) says it didn't happen. If that's the case, fair enough. Did it or didn't it happen?

"color people"

You know, I took that as a language limitation on Meerov's part. After all, calling someone "coloured" (offensive) and referring to "people of colour" (not offensive) would probably be quite confusing to a person whose first language isn't English. Point well scored though.

Uncreative

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Serge Forward

referring to him as 'alt-right', etc, for being critical of certain elements of anti-oppression politics

Just to repeat, literally no one has said Meerov is alt right.

Serge Forward

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

No, just compared to alt-right, likened to alt-right, sounds like alt-right - it's called guilt by association.

Fleur

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Are we supposed to not point out that he's using alt-right talking points? That he's been duped (like a lot of people have) by the mainstream normalization of right wing moral panics? Not bother mentioning it because Meerov's feelings are more important than getting over the wider point that anti-white discrimination is largely a fiction of the far right? Most people don't even realize where these things come from, so many mainstream column inches and airtime has been given over to them (at least in the US, I can't be bothered much with UK news anymore.) You may call it guilt by association, someone else may think it's educating him. Are we not supposed to challenge people talking far-right nonsense? He probably hasn't the faintest idea where these arguments come from, he's just been suckered.

Fleur

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Fwiw though, the man did tell me to kill myself early on in the thread, so I really don't give a shit about Meerov's feelings.

Steven.

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Serge Forward

Steven.

if you think black people should be able to meet and organise autonomously, then how on earth do you think they can do this if white people won't leave the room?

As I understood it, we're not talking about white people leaving the room so a BME meeting can take place, we're talking about segregating a whole student centre to make some kind of radical point. Although Fleur (and now Mike Harmon) says it didn't happen. If that's the case, fair enough. Did it or didn't it happen?

SF, this is the entire point. Meerov is making stuff up and lying. I challenged him above to provide evidence that this happened, and he responded saying he would not engage with me. He also claimed that black workers have demanded white workers leave the factory because they made them feel "unsafe", he also said that black people were more racist than white people, which is another fabrication.

Now I know that you like your image as being someone who is hard on "identity politics". But how does that mean that making up racist lies is fine? And that pointing out racist lies is bad?

"color people"

You know, I took that as a language limitation on Meerov's part. After all, calling someone "coloured" (offensive) and referring to "people of colour" (not offensive) would probably be quite confusing to a person whose first language isn't English. Point well scored though.

I thought it may have been a language issue, which is why I specifically asked him what he meant by it. He responded with this:
Meerov

Steven.

What is a "color" worker?

Anyone who thinks he's not white and has a negative attitude towards white.

which is an extremely weird response, and doesn't exactly make his comment any better, as he specifically says that all non-white people have "negative" attitudes towards whites

Serge Forward

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

You may call it guilt by association, someone else may think it's educating him.

Well, this whole thread has been an education.

Steven.

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Serge Forward

No, just compared to alt-right, likened to alt-right, sounds like alt-right - it's called guilt by association.

so okay you admit that no one called him "alt right" and you made that up.

No one compared or likened him to it either, so you are making that up as well. What I and others said was that he is repeating alt right talking points, which is factually correct, as anti-white racism is a massive concern of the alt right. If you weren't aware of this, take a look at a search engine: https://www.google.com/search?safe=off&ei=FfHhWsbaKYG9jwSF7YLADA&q=%22anti-white+racism%22+site%3ABreitbart.com&oq=%22anti-white+racism%22+site%3ABreitbart.com&gs_l=psy-ab.3...7035.10420.0.13823.9.4.0.0.0.0.205.489.0j2j1.3.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..6.0.0....0.bReKG2GPdwU

Steven.

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Serge Forward

You may call it guilt by association, someone else may think it's educating him.

Well, this whole thread has been an education.

well maybe you could educate us then. If Meerov is refusing to, could you tell us specifics about all the incidents where black workers have demanded whites be removed from their factories? Or where black students have demanded the removal of all whites and jews from the campus?

It's 2018 so there should be plenty of camera phone footage of all of this anti-white ethnic cleansing

Spikymike

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Admin changing the title of this was probably overstepping the mark but frankly meerov21 has not made out any well documented or well argued case for his accusations of a pervasive anti-white or anti-jewish style 'racism' on the back of some at best, even if they were true, isolated incidents. meerov21 makes some reasonable arguments on other discussion threads but seems to have gone astray with this one. Problems there may be with much of what passes as 'identity politics' as it is practiced in the USA and especially in academic circles but meerov21 hasn't made a sensible argument against that here. This discussion thread seems to have run it's course now and is just going round in circles with unnecessary personal accusations from both sides. Time to call it a day perhaps.

Mike Harman

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

@Serge. So if you ejected a right wing journalist, then they wrote a huge hit piece in the Times about how the ACG ejects white jewish people from their meetings, called it an example of cultural marxism, privilege politics, anti-white racism and call-out culture, you might be a bit annoyed. Then when people pointed out that it was completely fabricated and made-up to serve a far right agenda, those people were in turn called Stalinists, Maoists, shutting down debate from anyone who doesn't agree with the party line etc. that might also be a bit annoying?

With minimal reading comprehension it's quite clear from the opening post what the claim vs. reality is:

meerov's journo mate

At other colleges, all the Whites were asked to leave the student center to grant the people of color a safe space....

First of all meerov's journo mate does not claim to have witnessed this, they're anecdotally referring to something that happened at other colleges.

If you have a BME meeting in a student centre, it's quite possible to phrase this as 'all the Whites were asked to leave the student center to grant the people of color a safe space" - even if no-one was actually even asked to leave for any of the meetings, but it was just advertised as a BME meeting.

And this happens quite regularly. Here's an example, ironically in WaPo which is not averse to safe space moral panics, debunking just one such apocryphal tale:

WaPo

The idea of designated or safe spaces for specific groups of people has been the subject of debate.

While some see it as a way for traditionally underrepresented students to feel a sense of belongingness, others believe that however well-intentioned, it’s a regressive step back to segregation.

A fellow student, Cole Carnick, slammed Students4Justice in a column in the Michigan Review, a campus publication, and called the demand “unprincipled.”

“The same organization that criticizes the University for failing to create ‘an environment that engages in diversity, equity and inclusion,’ is calling upon the University to undermine these ideals by facilitating a sort of de facto segregation? One where space and resources are designated for students based solely on the color of their skin?” Carnick said, adding later: “If Students4Justice genuinely wants to foster an inclusive and diverse campus, then it would be best to avoid propositions that seek to divide and separate students. The ugly history of racially designated public spaces should remain in the past — revisiting it would only fulfill the dreams of our most depraved members of society.”

Lakyrra Magee, a member of Students4Justice, said the purpose behind creating a list of demands was to highlight how activism by students of color has changed the institution.

“People just have taken it however they want,” Magee said. “They’re changing the conversation to whatever they want it to be and not the rest of the demand.”

Both Garg and Magee said the group has received hateful messages since news outlets reported on their demand for a space for minority students. Some called them the n-word and told them to kill themselves, said Magee, a junior.

“We’re called Nazis, and that’s interesting to hear, and the equivalent of the KKK,” said Garg, a first-year student. “It’s just so strange.”

Somewhat-similar efforts to create these spaces at other schools have attracted controversy. The University of Connecticut, for instance, announced a living community specifically for black male students. Moraine Valley Community College outside Chicago announced a course specifically for black students and later walked back its plans.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2017/03/01/a-group-demanded-a-space-for-students-of-color-now-they-say-theyre-being-called-racists/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.5374faab2190

Here's Campus Reform, which campaigns against liberal bias and discrimination against conservatives, aghast that there could be a space for queer people of color at the University of Minnesota: https://www.campusreform.org/?ID=9500

Or the Atlantic making similar claims to Meerov:

The Atlantic

Then the idea becomes that we physicalize this notion of safe space and start asking white people to leave, or for example, at was it Oberlin? Where the black students had safe spaces designated all over campus where they could be safe from the incessant racism aimed at them by whites.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/06/a-columbia-professors-critique-of-campus-politics/532335/

Or Spiked's Frank Furedi in the LA Times:

LA Times

Safe space activism stems primarily from the separatist impulses associated with the politics of identity, already rampant on campus. For some individuals, the attraction of a safe space is that it insulates them from not just hostility, but the views of people who are not like them. Students' frequent demand for protection from uncomfortable ideas on campus — such as so-called trigger warnings — is now paralleled by calls to be physically separated too. Groups contend that their well-being depends on living with their own kind.

In 2015 and 2016, students of color at many colleges called for segregated safe spaces. For example, among the 14-page list of demands made by a group of Oberlin students was that "spaces throughout the Oberlin College campus be designated as a safe space for Africana identifying students."

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-furedi-safe-space-20170105-story.html

Since you've said you agree with autonomous organising and that it's fine, then presumably you can see that these articles are trying to portray quite normal autonomous meetings by black students as rampant separatism? Spiked is essentially an entire industry dedicated to spreading this bollocks. Their university free speech index downgrades for the existence of any bullying and harassment policy, which applies to nearly everywhere so they can give every university low free speech ratings.

This doesn't mean there isn't someone somewhere that's separatist, but for example two of these articles rely on a paraphrase of a letter from students at Oberlin which is not reproduced - and even if someone wrote that they want permanent physical safe spaces on campus (as opposed to the ability to hold autonomous meetings) that doesn't mean it was a demand of lots of students or that any actual white people got forced out of communal spaces, or that they weren't arguing for additional spaces rather than ejecting people from existing ones.

Yet Furedi says they were demanded (and the administrators denied the demands), and the Atlantic says it actually happened - the two stories actually contradict each other factually, one inflating the claims of the other. It seems quite likely that meerov's journo mate in turn further inflated those claims made about Oberlin from Furedi, a step removed into those safe spaces being created (as opposed to demanded), then a step further again into white students being kicked out of the entire student centre permanently.

Whereas far-right organising on American campuses - posters, leaflets, intimidation of black students, murders by neo-nazi students on US campuses are well documented with quite a lot of examples.

Mike Harman

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Since we're talking about alt-right fabrications, another one would be the use of South Africa's announced (but not implemented) land reforms to spread the idea that there is a genocide of white people in South Africa. Katie Hopkins and several other fash journalists did an entire tour of the country (with an Afrikaner far right organisation in Hopkins case I think) to try to prove this.

I wrote about it shortly after it was announced: https://libcom.org/news/real-land-expropriation-movement-south-africa-03032018 More recent post from Abahlali baseMjondolo http://abahlali.org/node/16424/

The existence of some violent burglaries on farms (not exactly unique to South Africa), and the vague possibility that some freehold agribusiness owners might get converted to a leasehold are the only truth in this. If you actually look at South Africa it's members of Abahlali baseMjondolo getting evicted, arrested, tortured and assassinated, and in some cases mass violence against Nigerian immigrants. Instead the international attention has been on an entirely fabricated 'white genocide' cooked up from some burglaries and a very weak populist measure (about as radical as Corbyn nationalising the national grid).

Serge Forward

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Spikymike

Admin changing the title of this was probably overstepping the mark but frankly meerov21 has not made out any well documented or well argued case for his accusations of a pervasive anti-white or anti-jewish style 'racism' on the back of some at best, even if they were true, isolated incidents. meerov21 makes some reasonable arguments on other discussion threads but seems to have gone astray with this one. Problems there may be with much of what passes as 'identity politics' as it is practiced in the USA and especially in academic circles but meerov21 hasn't made a sensible argument against that here. This discussion thread seems to have run it's course now and is just going round in circles with unnecessary personal accusations from both sides. Time to call it a day perhaps.

And that's exactly the right tone for this discussion.

Steven.

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Serge Forward

And that's exactly the right tone for this discussion.

So no word on your support for someone inventing claims of racist black people demanding the segregation of factories and universities?

R Totale

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

meerov21

jolasmo
Have you ever fought for the uprising of the Commune against the government, or for the Autonomous self-government of labour collectives?

Your question is not directly related to the topic of discussion, but the answer is Yes. I participated in a strike of miners near the house of the government of Russia, I within six months helped the workers who seized machine-building plant in the city of Yasnogorsk and which were attacked by police, I tried to organize a network of the working resistance during a number of years, connecting fighting Autonomous collectives at factories in Rostov, Vyborg, Moscow.

Is it just me, or does anyone else really, really wish that meerov would write more about this stuff, or indeed generally about how the Russian or Israeli working class is composed and divided, and what attempts are made to overcome those divides, and that that would be a much, much more interesting topic of conversation than "hey everyone, here's a copy and paste of this week's column from Russian Richard Littlejohn"? Just a thought, like.

Chilli Sauce

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

FWIW, I think early on this thread people - certainly I tried to - made an attempt to bring Meerov around through fairly soft-handed logic and argument. In response, he's gotten increasingly outlandish and said increasingly questionable things.

I can't speak for the libcom admins but - years back anyway - the site had a reputation for being a bit of a boys club where some, let's say, less then well-thought-through positions on gender issues were bandied about on the forums.

I think it's a credit to the admins that more than one of them have stepped in to call Meerov out on his shit. Alt-right talking points (and, goddammit, that's exactly what they are) should have no place on a communist forum. It needs to be made clear to any others who may stumble upon this conversation - I'm not talking about Meerov here, as as best I can tell, he's a lost cause - that that sort of racist bollocks won't be tolerated.

EDITED to add: Okay, maybe people gave Meerov short shrift on this particular thread, but that's after trying to make more reasoned arguments on that other similar thread he started.

meerov21

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

I have used here the example of statements against whites and Jews, based on statements by an elderly and well-known journalist (emigrant) about people who did not want to see Jews and whites at the University. I also added that people have the right to unite on the basis of ethnic principle, this is their right, but no one gives them the right to demand to throw Jews or whites out of a public place, for example from the territory of the University or the factory.

I did not mean that someone was in favor of cleaning the factory from whites and Jews, mention of the factory was needed to designate a public place. My English is obviously imperfect, and certainly could have been misunderstood in this matter.

But the example with the University was given in a note by Dorfman.

It turns out that the fact of discussing an article written by the Jews, who claimed to have been verbally attacked by anti-Semitic, is causa for insults and threats to ban. Cool.;)

R Totale

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

meerov21

It turns out that the fact of discussing an article written by the Jews, who claimed to have been verbally attacked by anti-Semitic, is causa for insults and threats to ban. Cool.;)

I don't want to be too hard on you here, because I appreciate there's a language barrier, but I am fairly confident that there has not been any kind of meeting or collective vote where The Jews decided to collectively endorse that one article. That said, it is interesting how even those people who announce that they're the most determined to break away from all notions of identity politics still seem to end up invoking it when it suits them. Ho him.

Juan Conatz

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Man. Maybe it's time for the forums to finally be shuttered. It's now pretty much degenerated into 2 people constantly repeating right-wing talking points and 4 people refuting them. Is this the Indymedia phase of the libcom forums?

Steven.

4 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

meerov21

I have used here the example of statements against whites and Jews

apart from the one comment from one individual saying Israelis were murderers, there were no general statements given about whites or Jews. They just told one person who happened to be white and Jewish to get out.

based on statements by an elderly and well-known journalist (emigrant) about people who did not want to see Jews and whites at the University

this is a lie – a racist lie, which you keep repeating.

This is a photograph of one of those Halloween demonstrations at Yale against racism:

There are more photographs and videos here: http://abcnews.go.com/US/allegations-racism-yale-culminated-1000-marching-justice-campus/story?id=35105491

As you can see a good number of the participants are white.

I did not mean that someone was in favor of cleaning the factory from whites and Jews, mention of the factory was needed to designate a public place. My English is obviously imperfect, and certainly could have been misunderstood in this matter.

You said this:

The problem arises when they demand that people with a different skin color leave the public space (factory or university, because in the presence of people with a different skin color "they do not feel safe").

your use of the word "when" here (and not "if") means you are saying that this happened. However as you admit this never happened. So why would you even use this completely fake hypothetical example?

But the example with the University was given in a note by Dorfman.

No, he only gives the example of a student Centre, not a university. And if black students were due to meet there, as you acknowledge is their right, then they cannot do that if white people refuse to leave, so they will need to ask the white people to leave (although it is worth noting that there is no evidence even that this happened as the article gives no specifics)

It turns out that the fact of discussing an article written by the Jews, who claimed to have been verbally attacked by anti-Semitic, is causa for insults and threats to ban. Cool.;)

that's hilarious, I thought you didn't agree with identity politics? Would you like a "safe space" just to be with people of your own ethnicity?

meerov21

3 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

OK))