There are clearly still a lot of external discussions influencing how things are interpreted and these discussions are not accessible as position texts or the like. If you weren't there on all those social media arguments you can't decode these things anymore. Various fash, alt-right etc people are also there in ghost form shaping how things are interpreted....These jumps look very odd when you don't share that frame of reference. Could this be the age issue Steven perceives? Unless it's only the old bigot friend bookfair issue.
I think this is probably right. Since about 2014/15-ish I've spent a lot of time looking at recent alt-right, MRA/rape-apologism, neo-reactionary, evopsych, and TERF arguments and counter-arguments (and some of their predecessors), a lot of this discovered/highlighted via social media. Without having done this, certain references would definitely go over my head.
Which brings us to this:
Perhaps I've missed it but I couldn't actually find any anti trans arguments by craftwork. There are arguments against some forms of activism. I doubt we'll get him back on thread to honestly explain if he's against trans people but I'd like to hear.
You didn't mention these comments, I'm not sure if that's because you missed them in what is a long thread, or that you read them and didn't read them as transphobic. I'm going to quote as minimally as possible (apologies to people who would prefer not to read these again), and link so you can see the full context.
1. "Of course, one would think that, as libertarians, you would support the freedom of conscience of a staff member to refuse [the imposition of] queer ideology that [gender is a choice].
https://libcom.org/forums/theory/poverty-identity-politics-21052018?page...
2.
There is no prima facie way to identify trans people - therefore your stupid, hyperbolic comparison with racism or misogyny don't work, and if you think there is, then you're the dumb transphobe.
https://libcom.org/forums/theory/poverty-identity-politics-21052018?page...
vs.
It's obvious who's a man and who's a woman - there are clear differences in physiology (it's called sexual dimorphism). Only a very small portion of the population are intersex
3.
If a coworker sees a male-bodied person in a skirt who identifies as woman, they have to recognise them as a woman, even if they subscribe to beliefs that man/woman is not a matter of self-definition, if not they face the threat of being subject to disciplinary action on the basis of a complaint - as far as I'm concerned, that clearly is an ideological imposition, expecting people to alter their fundamental conceptions of gender to suit HR or others.
What's at stake here is individual conscience vs. authoritarian imposition of power by HR and others.
4.
Of course, many here raise the comparison with racism or misogyny, but this is a unique case because it is based on constructed identities, not unchangeable, biological aspects of a person.
https://libcom.org/forums/theory/poverty-identity-politics-21052018?page...
I can explain why I think these are transphobic if it helps, but interested in how Cooked reads these.
Okay right thanks, appreciate the clarification. I think this is a problem with online discussion positions get hardened on either side.
I think this is one of the reasons it's a shame that the bookfair crew wouldn't meet with me to discuss what happened, ditto Past Tense.
Like Cooked says, perhaps there is some sort of communication issue behind some of this problem, which does appear to be generational, with pretty much all of us under 40 (apart from Craftwork it seems) on one side of the debate and most people 50 and up on the other?
So to understand where you are coming from I would appreciate if you could explain why you defended Craftwork's comments from people who on the surface have the same view as you? If you don't want to discuss in public happy to chat over a private message instead, and will keep the discussion confidential so feel free to send me a PM. All the best