The bloodbath in Syria: class war or ethnic war?

Anarchists join Kurdish fighters in Syria

As the Syrian conflict drags on, Devrim Valerian looks at the fighting, in particular in Syrian Kurdistan which many on the left have hailed as a "social revolution" and asks whether any side deserves workers' support.

The Arab Winter

How long three years seems. In early 2011 it seemed that a fresh wind of revolt was stirring from the East and spreading throughout the Arab world1. Massive protests and workers’ strikes in Tunisia and Egypt had terrified the ruling class to the point where they felt the need to depose their own heads of state. The embers of revolt were being fanned across the Arab world, and eventually even seemed to spread sparks across the world as a whole in the form of the occupy and indignados movements. All of this on the back of mass movements in Iran and Greece just a couple of years previously gave millions across the world the illusion that there was a massive return to struggle within the working class, that once again ordinary people were seizing the possibility of radically transforming their lives.

And yet coming towards the end of 2014, the situation is not looking nearly so optimistic. In the Middle East the conflicts in Syrian and Iraq seem to have merged into one joint ethno-sectarian war, which even today is threatening to spill over into neighbouring countries, Lebanon and Jordan seem to be the most vulnerable. In Eastern Ukraine a low level civil war is continuing despite an initial ceasefire. We have travelled in these three short years from a situation where there seemed to be a return to class struggle to a situation where the working class instead of grasping its chance to struggle in its own interests has plunged headfirst into deeper and deeper ethnic-sectarian struggles.

The Arab winter seemed to have set in almost as soon as the first shoots of spring had emerged. While it may have been difficult for some to see as they were swept along with the enthusiasm of the movement without at all noticing the direction that it was going in, the signs were there from March at the very latest. In Tunisia, and Egypt the working class was mobilised in defence of its own interests. In both countries it was strikes of masses of workers that shook the state. However, in other countries this was not the case. The conflict in Libya never possessed these characteristics even at its very beginning. In Libya, the Arab spring took on the characteristics of a fratricidal tribal war. The intervention of the Western powers on the side of the rebels did nothing but push the conflict further in that direction. Further to the East, however, potentially much more dangerous events were brewing.

While the conflict in Libya was essentially a struggle between rival tribes, the struggle in the Levant and Mesopotamia took on a much deeper sectarian character, which had the potential to spread far beyond the borders of a single state, and engulf the entire region. The struggles in both Syria and Bahrain took on these characteristics. Syria, a country where the majority of the population are Sunni Arab Muslims, is ruled by members of a minority Shia offshoot, who have a tendency to rely upon the country’s other minorities for support. Conversely in tiny Bahrain, a Sunni monarchy rules over a majority Shia population. Worried about the Shia minority in their own countries the Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC), an organisation of the Gulf oil monarchies led by Saudi Arabia sent in tanks to crush this Shia uprising in mid-March. At this point it became absolutely clear that the conflict had ceased to be a series of 'national' events and was now becoming a sectarian struggle across the entire region, the main protagonists being Saudi Arabia, and the GCC along with Turkey on the Sunni side, and Iran, Syria, and factions in both Iraq and Lebanon on the other.

Of course there were many on the left, who just as they had in Libya, saw a genuine workers’ revolution in Syria. Others, aware of the reactionary sectarian nature of much of the protest movement, defended the Syrian state in the name of secularism, anti-imperialism or whatever ideology they could use in an attempt to cover up the gore of a murderous bloody state. Anarchists in particular, but not alone, were particularly vulnerable to talk of democratic committees and self organisation of the revolt. Many insisted on these characteristics even as it became increasingly obvious that the war was turning into a multi-sided bloodbath where different ethnic/sectarian gangs controlled the populations that they controlled by force. Of course, as communists we too agree that there can be no genuine working class movement without workers' self organisation. However, we also insist that their can be no workers councils without workers' struggle. Local democracy in itself is not a revolutionary thing. In many countries workers can vote for their local representatives who are responsible for running municipal services, and in many countries few of them bother to.

What invests workers' councils with their revolutionary content is not their democratic forms, but the fact that they are representative of workers in struggle. The war in Syria saw an initial burst of enthusiasm in the struggle against the regime. People created various committees and councils, but this was not a workers' struggle. Ultimately as armed gangs took control of what rapidly became a war, enthusiasm and popular involvement died down. Of course some committees remained, but it was armed men giving the orders. Much, but not all of the left, seemed to realise its mistake. As internationalists had stated from the start there was no progressive side in this war. It seemed like some sort of lesson had been learned.

And then came Kobanê...

The Protagonists -The Da'esh, and the PKK

Since the middle of September the small city of Kobane on the Turkish-Syrian border has become the centre of world attention when the Da'esh began a siege aimed at capturing the city. Once again the left has renewed its cheer-leading of what is essentially just another phase of the larger sectarian struggle being waged across the region. This moment, within the larger struggle, is almost being portrayed as a struggle between light and darkness by much of the left. In the corner of good and light we have the PKK, the Kurdistan Workers' Party, and in the corner of darkness and evil we have the Da'esh, now newly renamed as simply the Islamic State.

The Da'esh's origins lie in Iraq in at the end of the 1990s. It underwent various mergers, and name changes including being known as Al-Qaeda in Iraq, and eventually settled on the name Islamic State of Iraq in late 2006. The thing that really built the Da'esh during these years was the development of the situation in Iraq into open civil war in 2006. Although presented in the West as a struggle against the US occupation, the Iraqi civil war had more of the characteristic of a sectarian struggle between Sunni, and Shia Muslims.

Iraq had traditionally been a state run by members of its Sunni minority ruling over a Shia majority. After the last Iraq war the newly promised American democracy, gave the Shia majority more representation and control of the Iraqi government. Now the boot is on the other foot. The Shia majority is using its power against the Sunni minority. Acts of ethnic cleansing similar to those being committed by the Da'esh are also being committed against the Sunni population further south in Iraq. The Da'esh managed to place itself as a leading Sunni force in the sectarian civil war in Iraq. During this time, they reduced the number of foreign fighters, and professionalised their military structure by bringing in former Ba'athist military and intelligence officers. It was during this time also that they gained the mastership of tribal politics, which has served them so well in the years since.

With the beginning of the war in Syria, one faction within the Da'esh began to infiltrate militants across the border. Again positioning itself as the defender of Sunni Muslims against atrocities perpetuated this time by the Syrian state, and slowly through its use of tribal alliances and divergences,and its struggles and mergers that have been constant within the Syrian opposition, it has manoeuvred itself to the top. Of course, the support, in political financial, and manpower terms came from Saudi Arabia, and certain of its allies in the GCC, not to mention the support received from Turkey. For the Gulf states in particular, the Da'esh was a weapon that could be used in the wider struggle, pointed at the Shia government in Baghdad, and the Alawite government in Damascus, two of the three main allies of their ultimate enemy, Iran.

The Da'esh now seems to have lost the support of its backers in the Gulf2. Turkey though seems to still see them as having some use, as a tool in the struggle to overthrow the Syrian state, and as a hammer to strike a blow against its enemy of thirty years, the PKK.

The Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) has been fighting a war in the South-East of Turkey for the last three decades. Like the Da'esh it is essentially an ethnic militia. Its origins lie not in Syria, but in Turkey. However, during its long war, it has established sections in neighbouring countries with Kurdish populations. Like the Da'esh the PKK has also received support from various foreign states, primarily Syria, but also Iran (until the PKK's Iranian section began to bother the Iranian state), and Russia. It is also suggested that its Iranian section, PJAK, has received aid from the US, and it has certainly tried to deepen whatever contacts it has with America, with PJAK spokesperson Ihsan Warya going as far to declare that “PJAK really does wish it were an agent of the United States”.

The Syria section of the PKK, the Democratic Union Party (PYD) stood apart from the majority of factions at the start of the Syrian war, standing apart from the Kurdish National Council backed by the PKK's rival, Massoud Barzani's Kurdistan Democratic Party, and the Syrian National Council, which it saw as too closely connected to Turkey. In July 2012, the Syrian state made an operational decision to withdraw the majority of its troops from the Kurdish areas of the country in order to enable them to redeploy against an opposition offensive against Aleppo. Shortly after the PYD took control of the vast majority of the Kurdish region. This take-over was accomplished with very little violence, and it has been suggested by many that a deal was done between the PKK/PYD, and the Syrian state. What the PYD has done in Syrian Kurdistan since then, has been seen by many as a social revolution.

Revolution in Rojava

The PKK has been running a massive propaganda offensive in the West. Articles talking about the struggle in Syrian Kurdistan are appearing all over the Western media, from leftist magazines to women's magazine, Marie Claire. What was once seen in the Western mainstream media as an authoritarian Stalinist nationalist group has now repositioned itself as an democratic, ecological, feminist movement, moved by a philosophy called 'democratic confederalism' adapted from that of the anarchist Murray Bookchin. To many in the region, who are familiar with the PKK's mode of operations, this seems very difficult to believe. The PKK is an organisation with a dark past. Even their imprisoned leader Abdullah Öcalan talks about periods of “gangs within our organization and open banditry, arrang[ing] needless, haphazard operations, sending young people to their death in droves”. The history of the PKK is something that has been well documented by internationalist critics3. It is not what we want to engage with here.

For us the problem is not that the PKK has a bloody history of crimes against both its own members and the working class. It does have this history of course. This is no surprise though. Virtually all nationalist gangs have a similar sort of history, and while many on the left who back these gangs may wish that they didn't, it does go with the territory. Even if there were some pristine nationalist movement unstained with the blood of the working class, and its own members, the nationalist logic would still propel it in the same direction, so here we intend not to concentrate on the PKK's bloody past, but to concentrate on its position today.

A lot has been made in the Western media of the female only militia units with pictures of young women in combat fatigues with guns gracing the pages of magazines, and websites. To be cynical it sells. Here we have these brave young women fighting off these 'Islamic barbarians'. The PKK marketing department certainly knows its audience. When you stop to think about it now, it’s not really exactly that radical. The Da'esh also have women only groups of combat troops. You can't imagine them having mixed groups in an ultra-Islamic group, but then neither does the PKK, and nor does the Iranian state, which also has female combat troops. In fact the PKK, has a long history of separating the sexes and sexual relationship between the sexes have long been punished, just like in any other bourgeois army.

However, it is a big propaganda selling point for them. The aim of this campaign in the West is twofold. One aim is to have the PKK removed from lists of terrorist organisations in various states. With the emergence of the Da'esh devil, the PKK line for the mainstream is that these young women are the ones fighting against the terrorists. The line they sell to the left is that this is some kind of social revolution, where relations between the sexes are being overturned. Anarchists have been making comparisons to the Spanish revolution, which we discuss in the accompanying article4. The second goal of this campaign is to get US and European practical support for the fighters in Kobanê, which has so far been successful with the Americans dropping weapons and ammunition to the besieged troops, and providing air support.

To return though, to the question of revolution; for us as communists, a revolution is a creation of the working class in struggle for its own interests. Within the course of this struggle the working class not only transforms society, but also transforms itself. In Syrian Kurdistan, there was no movement of the working class. Control of the towns in Syrian Kurdistan was taken by an armed group filling the power vacuum left after the withdrawal of the Syrian Arab Army. That's not to say that there was no support for the PYD, as everywhere today nationalism in the Kurdish regions is strong. Local committees were thrown up which took control of the necessary tasks usually undertaking by the municipal level of the state. The Da'esh too, has in many cases left local people in charge of local issues, and like the Da'esh, the armed men have maintained power at the top. The supreme ruling body of Rojava, the Kurdish Supreme Committee is a body, not composed of delegates from lower level committees, but an alliance between two political groups, the PYD, and the Barzani backed KDP. Despite all of the democratic pretence, ultimate control is wielded by nationalist gangs with guns.

And a nationalist gang is what the PKK is. As we mentioned before the PKK despite a somewhat patchy history with minority groups in Turkey has now set itself up as the defender of the minorities of Kurdistan. This, however, does not apply, and can not apply to Arabs. On more than one occasion, Salih Muslim, co-leader of the PYD, has talked about 'expelling Arabs', and the possibility of 'war between Kurds and Arabs'. Just to be clear, Muslim is not talking about expelling all Arabs, “One day those Arabs who have been brought to the Kurdish areas will have to be expelled”. The Arabs that he is talking about here are those who were transplanted to the region in the states 1973 Arabisation campaign. Given the demographics of Middle Eastern countries though (Syrian has a median age of just over 22), the majority of “those Arabs who have been brought to the Kurdish areas” will actually have been born there. Muslim himself admits that these Arabs are 'victims' in all of this. This doesn't stop him though from proclaiming that “All the villages where they live now belong to the Kurds”.

Of course these Arabs can no longer be separated from Arabs who were previously there. There are many of them who were born in Kurdistan, who have married with local Arabs, and had children and even grandchildren. How will the PYD discriminate between them, and more importantly how will other Arabs react to this talk of ethnic cleansing? This is the path to ethnic conflict that we have seen across the Middle East, particularly in neighbouring Lebanon, and in places such as ex-Yugoslavia, and Northern Ireland in Europe, all too many times before. Whatever the left talk of some of the protagonists in these struggles, they follow an ever deepening spiral into more and more vicious ethnic/sectarian conflict. At first the worst atrocities might be 'mistakes', shootings of civilians undertaken without direction or permission of the leadership of the various nationalist militias. However, to the families and friends of the victims, this is of secondary importance. They strike back, and murder is followed by atrocity and massacre.

In the midst of a civil war between a Kurdish militia, and what is essentially a Sunni Arab militia, these events will happen. It matters not how progressive the PKK portrays itself. The logic of the situation dictates what will happen. A good example would be the Kingsmill massacre in County Armagh, Northern Ireland in 1976. The IRA, like the PKK, was viewed as a 'progressive, socialist' organisation, but the day after Protestant paramilitaries shot dead five Catholic civilians, Irish Republicans went out and stopped a bus of building workers, and took off the eleven protestants on it, and shot them, killing ten of them. The IRA denied involvement in the attack. However, that didn't stop the Protestant paramilitaries from enacting their revenge, and the tit for tat killings continued.

For communists a revolution cannot be enacted by armed ethnic/sectarian militias and fighting between the militias of different ethnic/sectarian groups will only lead to the working class being divided and being used to massacre itself.

Class War or Sectarian War?

It is this threat of ethnic/sectarian war, which heralds the danger for the future. Ultimately despite the differences between the PKK and the Da'esh, the similarities between the two are what links them. A socialist veneer does not stop an ethnic militia from playing its part in the escalation of the cycle of ethnic conflict, and ethnic cleansing. It is clear in this struggle that the Da'esh is the aggressor, and that the PKK is merely defending its turf. It is also clear that compared to the Da'esh, the PKK looks positively progressive. None of this stops either of them playing their roles in the intensification of ethnic conflict.

Of course we have sympathy for Kurds being massacred by the Da'esh. However, unlike others on the left, internationalists recognise that those dying on the side of the Da'esh, also come in the main from the working class and the peasantry. Like amongst the Kurds, there will be many fighting with the Da'esh who have lost loved ones in sectarian massacre performed by Shia militias in Iraq, and by the Alawite run state in Syria. Also on the side of the Da'esh, as with the Kurds, there will be many young workers and peasants who have been conscripted into these gangs.

In a struggle like this where workers and peasants are butchering each other in the name of nationalism and religion, communists do not take sides. Those who take sides in this war will not contribute in the long term to any progressive victory, but merely to the further ethnic division, and increased militarisation of the region, neither of which will be of benefit to the working class. It also seems ironic that many on the left, especially those aligned to the PKK in Turkey, who for so long sided with whichever local imperialist power, or proxy, opposed America is now cheering the US on. Of course, they must know that American intervention in this war is certainly not for the benefit of the people of the Middle East, but they seem to have forgotten it very quickly.

The working class, neither in the Middle East nor in the rest of the world, is not strong enough to stop this war just as in 1914 it was not strong enough to stop World War One or the Armenian genocide a year later. To pretend otherwise is to be prey to illusions. However, that does not mean that revolutionaries should dive headfirst into taking sides in it, and acting in a way which will almost certainly lead to the prolonging and intensification of ethnic/sectarian conflict. It is important to remember that the siege of Kobanê is but a moment in a larger struggle across the entire region being fought out by the proxies of various local imperialist powers. Turkey along with Saudi, and the GCC, will continue to try to overthrow the Syrian state, and Turkey will continue its terrorist war against not only the PKK, but also the civilian population in Turkish Kurdistan. It is almost inevitable that in return other powers opposed to Turkish policy will begin to channel arms to the PKK to continue its fight against Turkey. Recent demonstrations in Turkey in support of the fighters in Kobanê left over thirty people dead, the majority of them murdered by the Turkish state, and some of them by Turkish nationalist gangs, and saw the state using tanks against demonstrators for the first time since the 1980 coup. The Turkish armed forces have also, after a period of ceasefire, renewed their attacks upon the PKK in Turkey. Of course, Turkey is the aggressor here, but when the PKK replies in kind, and kills some Turkish conscripts that won't be the first thing in the minds of grieving mothers, relatives, and friends...and so the spiral of ethnic hatred, which in turn leads, to violence, murder, and massacre will go on.

The alternative that internationalists pose to this is that of class struggle. It may seem far away now, but it is only four years ago that the TEKEL strike in Turkey really seemed to be breaking down barriers between Kurdish, and Turkish workers, and led to a much wider strike wave. 2013 saw massive demonstrations across Turkey sparked by police brutality against protestors in Istanbul's Gezi park. The three years since the Arab spring may seem like a long time now, but in times like these changes can occur very, very quickly. Although the working class seems weak today struggles where the working class is fighting for its own interests will return in the future, and they are the only solution to overcoming the ethnic and sectarian divide by uniting workers as workers, not as Kurds, Turks, Arabs, and Persians, or Sunni, Shia, Christian or Yazidi.

D. Valerian 28/10/14

Glossary: Who’s Who in Kurdistan – A Brief Summary

  • PKK Kurdistan Workers’ Party. A Turkish Kurdish political and military organisation, originally Marxist-Leninist (ie. Stalinist) founded in 1978 by Abdullah Öcalan (in prison in Turkey since 1998). At war with the Turkish state since 1984.
  • PYD Democratic Union Party. Syrian branch of the PKK founded in 2003.
  • YPG People’s Protection Units. Military wing of the PYD.
  • KNCS Kurdish National Council in Syria. A heterogenous grouping of Kurdish political organisations opposed to the PYD and under the patronage of the KDP.
  • KDP Kurdish Democratic Party. Founded in 1946 by Mustafa Barzani and now led by his son, Massoud. It is the ruling power in the KRG.
  • KRG Kurdistan Regional Government formed after the fall of Saddam Hussein in Iraq under Massoud’s KDP it is a staunch ally of the USA.
  • PUK Patriotic Union of Kurdistan. Founded in Iraqi Kurdistan in 1975 after a split within the KDP. It is dominant in the southern part of Iraqi Kurdistan and its leader Jalal Talabani was President of Iraq 2005-14


Posted By

Nov 3 2014 12:54


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Nov 4 2014 03:38

I just recommend everyone to read DAF's response to basically our three week old conversation:

Nov 4 2014 08:09

Ok I am done AES. I wont speak further as we have discussed all this and you seem to not care what I say. Maybe (hopefully) you will see for yourself in time how inaccurate your analogy and your understanding of what PKK is now. (that is unfortunately based on articles such as above that offer to English speaking audience just the wrong impression what situation of Kurds in Turkey (and region) is)
If you want to, you can read the article Marx-Trek mentions in the comment above. It is new.

Nov 4 2014 10:48
Matoska wrote:

Quote: Of course, Turkey is the aggressor here, but when the PKK replies in kind, and kills some Turkish conscripts that won't be the first thing in the minds of grieving mothers, relatives, and friends...and so the spiral of ethnic hatred, which in turn leads, to violence, murder, and massacre will go on.

That's called resistance kak Devrim. Pacifism leads to genocide.

Are you mad?! It's not about resistance, it's about tit for tat killing.

Nov 4 2014 10:54

Gepetto, you are right. However mikail is wrong that PKK can not be held responsible for the war. The main reason there is a war in Turkey is the nationalistic foundation of Turkish Republic. Many Turks tend to disregard it, while discussing the Kurdish issue. As it is easy for them to forget as they are not "ethnically" repressed by it like Kurds.

Nov 4 2014 12:32
kurremkarmerruk wrote:
I wonder how your communism would support Armenian socialist organizations who tried to stop ethnic cleansing. I guess you would just condemn them as nationalist gangs and equalize them with Ottoman Empire, right?

Well, many of these Armenian socialists were social chauvinists that cheerleaded the Russian army and supported the formation of Armenian units within it.

Anyway on the topic of the Armenian genocide, I always wonder how since Hitler the threat of genocide has been the reason for the left to give up working class politics and side with the 'lesser evil', but those on the left with revolutionary pretensions still think that this crime wasn't enough to justify the support for Entente.

Nov 4 2014 12:45
Well, many of these Armenian socialists were social chauvinists that cheerleaded the Russian army and supported the formation of Armenian units within it.

I can not believe you just said that.

Nov 4 2014 13:05

Well, if you think that I'm wrong, correct me. There was a pro-Russian faction within the Hunchaks which, if I remember correctly, took the lead during the war and condemned internationalist members of the party, and there were of course the Dashnaks.

Nov 4 2014 13:54

There are three very interesting sources of information on what is going on in Rojava. One is the KURDWATCH website which lists human rights violations in the area. 'Report no.9' is especially interesting.

Here are some worrying extracts from an interview with Salih Muslim Muhammad, the PYD leader:

KurdWatch: In Kobanî and Serê Kaniyê Kurdish activists were kidnapped and severely tortured. In both cases, the PYD is being blamed.
Salih Muslim Muhammad: There are problems in Kurdish society, as there are problems in all societies. There are immoral incidents, for example drug use. There are people who sell drugs. The state and outside powers are behind this. They want to break society apart. There are people who do not accept this. We are not those people. In several Kurdish cities there are brothels. Here, too, there are people who are against this. It is not the PYD, but society that does not accept this. Thus it is clear that there will be corresponding reactions. There will be an attempt to classify these reactions politically. But politics is not behind this.

KurdWatch: In the 1980s and 90s, the PKK killed many of its Kurdish critics in Syria, many others lost body parts, and others were threatened and beaten. Should we be afraid that the PYD is planning similar acts in the future?
Salih Muslim Muhammad: If the PKK punished people, it had its reasons. We know this much from that period. Either the people in question were traitors or they had caused harm to the PKK. There were PKK courts that determined the punishments. Or people were punished because that's what the people wanted. The PYD is a political organization. If someone betrays us, he will be punished. But we do not use murder or violence. The PKK has military units that follow their own laws, as it is the case with the military all over the world. They do not act like political organizations.

In this same interview Salih Muslim Muhammad also makes clear that: 'we apply Apo's [Abdullah Öcalan's] philosophy and ideology to Syria: It offers the best solution to the Kurdish problems in Syrian Kurdistan.'

Another good source is chapters 4 and 11 of Conflict, Democratization, and the Kurds in the Middle East by David Romano, in which one Syrian Kurd is reported to have said:'The portraits of Bashar Assad have simply been replaced by portraits of Abdullah Ocalan. Nothing has changed.'(p243)

There is also a very interesting report by the International Crisis Group (Middle East Report no.151) where it is claimed that: 'a Qamishli resident who witnessed formation of its council said the PYD selects five to twenty people from a neighbourhood; appoints a leader; and puts the council in charge of distributing gas and humanitarian aid.' This doesn't sound very 'democratic' and neither does the compulsory conscription that has recently been introduced. According to this same report, another interviewee said: 'Each recruit is supposed to receive military training and attend political classes on Öcalan’s ecological and philosophical views'! (p13-4)

Another interviewee claims:'I was in the YPG [PYD militia] since before the uprising, but I have left. Since last year,at least 400 new PKK military personnel came from Turkey and Iran. They are not Syrians,and they want to control everything. They don’t care about Syrians. They make deals with the [Assad] regime and [Iraqi PM] Maliki. This is why I left.'(p17)

Whether any of this is true is very unclear but these sources provide a useful contrast to other equally interesting, but more pro-PYD, reports such as Janet Biehl's (Murray Bookchin's associate): 'Ecology or Catastrophe'

Nov 4 2014 14:01

Who are you Antiwar and why are you keep posting pro-Barzani and Armenian Genocide denial pro-Turkish State books and sources on different forums?

Nov 4 2014 14:16
Whether any of this is true is very unclear but these sources provide a useful contrast to other equally interesting, but more pro-PYD, reports such as Janet Biehl's (Murray Bookchin's associate): 'Ecology or Catastrophe'

What is so useful? What kind of stupid logic is this? As I said to you before (in another thread) the book you share above has an article by Michel M. Gunter (see summary and reviews of his book: He is an Armenian genocide denial and a friend of Turkish state on all accounts. What makes this guy so reliable for communists or anarchists ? If you look at the book you will see it has no Kurdish named authors (but a lot of turks). It is a book about kurds that is written for benefit of Turkish state! What kind of objectivity is it? I want to know what bounds all communists together with political authorities when the issue is Kurds or Armenians or any other ethnic nationality that is repressed by Turkey or Ottoman empire?

The other sources as I wrote in another forum, I will be short. They are basically pro-Barzani propaganda. you are being part of the power play. (By the way I do not claim PKK never violated human rights in any form. As it did obviously)

What you are trying to do is dishonest!

Nov 4 2014 15:48
Matoska wrote:
If you've done nothing to build this struggle, at least have the decency not to proliferate propaganda supporting the reactionaries.

What have you done and how is this 'supporting the reactionaries'? Hate to break it to you, but the left (radical especially) is largely irrevelant these days and shit we write on the Internet doesn't have magical ability to tip the scales in favour of any of the sides somewhere far away. So you can't talk even about some 'objective support', because there's no way ISIS would benefit from that article written for a niche audience. The only way you could make any difference would be to go there and actually fight for either PKK/PYD or ISIS, with gun in your hand.

Nov 4 2014 16:07
kurremkarmerruk wrote:
(sorry Syrian workers, you should just born in an advanced capitalist country that is all grin )

Oh my. Scratch some anarchists and you'll find Maoists.

jef costello
Nov 4 2014 20:03

Thanks for the article Devrim.


If I wanted to pick the least worst option then I would vote.

Nov 4 2014 20:51

Jef costello


If I wanted to pick the least worst option then I would vote.


I have no intention to discuss anything more with you, I do not see anyway we can agree on something.

Nov 5 2014 14:52

The Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) has been fighting a war in the South-East of Turkey for the last three decades. Like the Da'esh it is essentially an ethnic militia.
It is a shame This article compares Pkka with Dash. The author is a Stalinist.Kurds are fighting for freedom and democracy Da ash for reaction and ignorance War .
Stalinists and communists are like Dash They are totalitarian and repressive and criminal
We're anarchists, and we support those who fight for freedom...

Nov 5 2014 14:55

Devrim is a fucking stalinist

Nov 5 2014 15:06

im a worker anarchist and i fihght againts daash . ther is no sandica or any tradunion in midel east we fight for freedom

Serge Forward
Nov 5 2014 15:40

I've known Devrim for almost 30 years and he has never been anything like a Stalinist. The PKK, however, for most of the three decades you mention, ramyar, has been an actual proper Stalinist/Maoist organisation. So, when you say you are a 'worker anarchist', ramyar, what does this mean exactly?

Nov 5 2014 16:17

This means that my perspective as an anarchist is different from the writer I know
struggle against the state is true.fighting Against Centralization is not ethnic war.
this is a war against the hegemonic power

Nov 5 2014 16:56

You may be suprised to find that there are a lot of communists (including some anarchists) who are influenced by versions of marxism substantially different from the one narrow version you associate with the term who would agree with quite a lot of your points and who are represented in a number of texts and discussions on this site when you have time to look into it.

Nov 6 2014 07:47


Kurdish communist activists need to abandon Marxism (a state dogma) in favor of anarchist communist world view, which is not dogmatic and is scientific. Otherwise, they are fighting for nothing.

Yeah I will now get out of my home and inform Kurdish fighters: as you are so scientific

Nov 5 2014 18:07

dictatorship of proletariat is dictatorship like eslamic dictatorship we are aginst every kind of dictatorship and also eperialism in is a term of cold war. in contemporary world china، Russia are grate emperialist must fight against them too

Nov 5 2014 18:11

Murray bookchin is our thought leader

Nov 5 2014 21:26

I am sure that Devrim soon joins the daash an began criminal work Instead class war!!

Nov 5 2014 22:01
ramyar wrote:
dictatorship of proletariat is dictatorship like eslamic dictatorship we are aginst every kind of dictatorship and also eperialism in is a term of cold war. in contemporary world china، Russia are grate emperialist must fight against them too

As both Marx and Engels described the Paris Commune as a dictatorship of the proletariat, I see very little similarity between that and an Islamic dictatorship.

Nov 6 2014 08:03

Actually a comparison of Paris Commune and Rojava could be very interesting. Especially in the context of the demand of autonomy from the state in these two cases. (However I am no expert on The Commune and I am sure there is a lot of difference between two, which must also be addressed)

I know I will be criticized very harshly because I dare to use both in the same sentence grin But I think it could be very informative if we could have a serious political discussion of such issues.

Nov 6 2014 12:26

Can we stop these gross slanders against Devrim. Moderators?

Nov 6 2014 14:09

I agree with Battlescarred. Devrim's text defends an internationalist position and he is being slandered by 'anarchists' who are openly defending a nationalist gang in an imperialist war.

klas batalo
Nov 6 2014 17:59

it is clear to me that maybe some turkish anarchists or kurdish anarchists (really not sure on that) have come on here... noclass, raymar and that their understanding of Marxism is that of the capitalist when they see the word "communist" they think Devrim is for a centralized nightmare... i'd encourage raymar and and noclass to read more about the marxist anti-statists that are often posting on this site, though there are very few of them and even the most internationalist communists are for some sorta non-/semi-state transition...tho the CWO has been sliding into anarchist positions on the state lately it seems wink

Nov 7 2014 15:06

*Edited for poor form on my part.