Anyone here ever met any of them? I know they were in London once... maybe some of the ISMers here might have? Or maybe some even read the forums... Just interested in hearing a bit more about them, as their site is pretty non-informative.
Heard about this today:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/715389.html
Violence erupted in the A-Ram neighborhood, just north of Jerusalem, after Israeli and Palestinian activists stormed the checkpoint separating Israel and the West Bank.
edit// i forgot we had this forum :oops:
Israeli Anarchists Against the Wall
What sort of thing do you want to know? Used to know a few of 'em, though haven't been in touch for a while.
A few of them used to be Deir Yassin, when it still existed. The band that is, not the village...
You're going that way during summer? If so, it'd definitely be worth hooking up with the people from Mapakh - they're really welcome in giving a place to crash for a few days to any travelling anarchos/punks (they live in Yaffa, an hour or so's walk south from the centre of Tel Aviv).
Israeli Anarchists Against the Wall
one of them did a talk in manchester perhaps a year ago. Very inspiring and informative talk.
What are you after? Their politics? Probably quite a mixed bag, sharing just the conviction of non-statist solution to the issue and working class solidarity. He said that their group is a loose collection of all kinds of anarchists, punks, anti-authoritarians, vegans etc. It looked from the video material that the average age was quite young, under/early 20's i'd say.
Israeli Anarchists Against the Wall
I met Matan, the young Israeli who got shot in the eye by the IDF, once - he seemed pretty sound, and very young! Tacks may know more...
Israeli Anarchists Against the Wall
i put the text of their manchester talk, along with some of the pictures on the www.af-north.org siteit's at http://www.af-north.org/palestine/wall.htm
Israeli Anarchists Against the Wall
Yeah Matan spoke in Belfast and Dublin a while back. I didn't meet him myself but other comrades from Organise! did. Maybe bobby could tell you more but he'll not be online for a while. Do you need contact details?
:@: :rb:
Israeli Anarchists Against the Wall
http://www.squat.net/antiwall/
stillooney wrote:http://www.
stillooney
THIS IS THE GENUINE
ISRAELI-PALESTINIAN ANARCHISTS WITHOUT WALLS SITE
http://awalls.org/
The mirror site is the same as the original & donations to the legal fund from either route are much appreciated.
THX ALL
The AATW are a good bunch of
The AATW are a good bunch of guys, I had the pleasure of doing lots of stuff with them as an ISMer. For more info on them check out this link it is a pdf with lots of interesting info as far as I can remember (read it sometime ago).
Update on Friday, November
Update on Friday, November 24's AATW action
Stop the War Machine: Israeli Anarchists Against the Wall seize tanks and bulldozers at Gaza checkpoints
Anti-semantics
Please note: to avoid disruption of discussions over 'words' post-zionist are sometimes referring to the wall as 'fence'*. What matters is that non-violent protest continues, despite state violence/terrorism, not what the 'thing' is called - this tends to only occur in Israeli news
*although I personally call it a wall.
AATW have new website - lost
AATW have new website - lost more information, up to date on protests, added video (so i don't have to scour youtube anymore) pictures, and other related actions.
latest: the result of court decision re. activist action dating back 2 years.
http://www.awalls.org
I find this quote from their
I find this quote from their website the most disheartening:
there's a very informative
there's a very informative interview someone did with them for freedom that Tommy Ascaso got sent ;)
Yes i know them pretty well; i worked with them in palestine, but more importantly i've stayed in touch and we (AF) hosted their last speaking tour in 2 UK venues. AF also has a cross-member sortof.
Their politics are a very mixed bag - i don't mean that in a veiled insult way, they just vary a lot. As with most palsolidarity stuff there is a centrality of palestinian lead work - no palestinian support or approval no activity - and this extends to projected solutions to the conflict. They have said they are satisfied with what the palestinians are satisfied with. This is that strange or requires any compromise as AATW work so closely with palestinians (many palestinians probably consider themselves members informally, many arab-israelis too etc.) that there isn't always any perceivable gap between AATW and the communities they work with, and their are soooo many roving groups in the OPT now too.
Very interestingly they do not think much of the statements of western anarchists who say 'no nations, no states, class war' cos they argue the gap between the average Israeli worker and palestinian worker is so great on so many levels, this is unlikely to be the primary focus of any effective campaign. Also the majority - possiby all - of AATW support a 2 state solution as an interim solution, seeing a call for 'no state solution' as an insult to far more complex situation in the present. A couple of them slagged the Libertarian Communist Alternative communique thingymajig that everybody and their anarchist uncle published during the Lebanon war. LCA were as far as they were concerned a non-group who had not done any peace work or come to any of the peace demo's they called during the war. They also slagged the politics of the communique, but i can't recall properly. A link was posted on libcom.
My summing up: AATW political contribution is really important, especially if groups like IFA are going to put out (IMHO)trite 'no war but the class war' statements that may well just mock the situation. Speak to the palestinians and israelis who can really talk about what the class war means there first. Its not a case of rejecting class struggle, but configuring it to the situation.
Outside of their politics: they are fucking brave, good people. They have just as much in community skills as they do in sheer guts. I know in the world of the internet that doesn't seem to count for much, but for me at least it gives me a much better perspective on whatever they say.
lastly: they are facing shitloads of court ATM and reckon this might finally mean prison for someone. Solidarity and money are both needed.
Tacks wrote: Their politics
Tacks
Seems reasonable enough to me. In fact, there was an olive planting activity a few weeks ago, and I acted in just this manner: a few soldiers stopped us from going to certain lands which were not covered by an agreement between Rabbis for Human Rights and the IDF. I did not deem it proper to run ahead to the forbidden territory myself, like another activist did, but the moment one of the Palestinian olive farmers decided to proceed, I was the first to back him up. No violence ensued, though another activist and the head of RfHR did get arrested.
Tacks
This I do take issue with. What kind of comrade does not criticize you for your ideological failings? And, besides, how do you measure what "the Palestinians are satisfied with" in regards to projected solutions to the conflict? This easily degenerates into Third-Worldist populism.
Tacks
Well, quite a few Palestinians are employed in Israel and by settlers in the West Bank (That's no longer the case in Gaza, and look what good it did to them); There's the shared problem of unpayed municipal workers; and with the disintegrating welfare state and deteriorating worker's benefits in Israel on the one hand, and the recent intra-Palestinian sectarian violence on the other, I'd say there's definitely room for thinking of practical internationalist class-struggle initiatives; that is, unless you get sucked into Third-Worldism and refuse to even consider it because it's just not popular enough with those deemed ethnically oppressed.
Tacks
I think that's a false dichotomy. You can just posit, like I do, that it is not our concern to tell the bourgeois how to best manage our oppression, be it via a one-state or two-state "solution."
Moreover, the AATW's direct-action tactics seem to be just as applicable to fighting the potential appropriation of land by the future Palestinian state (and, let's face it, that's just the kind of thing states do) as they are to stopping the IDF from bogarting lands for the settlements.
This is what happens when you "let others draw party lines": You end up needlessly supporting ideological positions which stand in opposition to your own struggle.
Look, you are actually in
Look, you are actually in AATW so why don't you just answer for me? :D
However: I tried to stress the fact it was not third worldism i was talking about, and that they were much closer than to patronise palestinians like that - indeed you might consider certain palestininians 'members'.
When asked 'what kind of solution do you want, along what boundaries with what land?' AATW members have genrally said 'whatever the palestinians are satisfied with. When deciding what action to take, like you gave an example, they do what the community they are with wants (generally).
Agreed :)
tree was it you who posted
tree was it you who posted that blog which had a three way interview about the lebanon conflict, one of the ppl in it called Anat?
Thats the piece which talks about the LCA communique during the war and is very illuminating.
Tacks wrote: Look, you are
Tacks
Sure, right. Let me just put the safety on that Uzi I got for my Bar Mitzva, like all Israeli Jews. :roll: :D
Tacks
You can be both close and patronizing. If the shoe fits...
Tacks
But what happens if there are a bunch of Israelis that aren't satisfied with what the Palestinians are satisfied? The Palestinians are the ethnically oppressed, so they get first dibs, is that it? Showing solidarity with a community struggling for its liberation is one thing, which I have done and intend to do (more so once I'm employed and less depressed), and not just across the Green Line; taking an ethnicity and giving it a privileged ideological position is a whole other kettle of fish, one that reeks of Third-Worldism.
Tacks
That was posted by Eyal Rozenberg, not by me. I found similar points objectionable therein. I'm disturbed by the fact that the Lebanese anarchists called the Hezbollah actions "resistence", even when it involved shooting rockets at Israeli civilians, even when it involved them pulling the Lebanese people in a bloody confrontation with the Zionists (it's appalling that anarchists would be looking for excuses to exonerate a religious-fundamentalist organization), and, moreover, that these points were not contested by the Israeli anarchists, but sometimes even approved by them.
treeofjudas wrote: Tacks
tojiah
i don't get you friend: by my massive powers of deduction i have worked out that you are israeli, and an anarchist and have been on AATW actions - sorry if i added 2 and 2 and got 5. It seemed like an obvious assumption.
The other point is - why on EARTH are you debating AATW views or statements with *ME* when there are AATW posters here and you know far far more about it than i?
All the best,
tacks
I'm sorry. I thought you
I'm sorry. I thought you were kidding. I mean, I've repeatedly stated that I am not a member of AATW.
Moreover, I'm not aware of anyone else on this board that is a member of AATW. Eyal, a personal acquaintance of mine, with whom I have not kept in touch in real life since having moved around a bit in Israel, is not a member either, if I recall correctly. He's the only other Israeli I've seen on this website.
I have met AATW members in real life, but I haven't had much chance to talk to them. Israel is kind of a small place, especially in the activist arena, so it's hard not to bump into pretty much everyone, eventually; that doesn't mean that I know them all personally.
apologies for not paying
apologies for not paying attention to your posts.
Also like you say, Israel is tiny, the active peace movement is tiny and the anarchist movement is smaller still - i did assume you knew them.
Anyway, do take up your criticisms with them, they can't be hard to reach.
why arent you a member
why arent you a member though? I mean ok, i am one of these organisation fetishists who cant stand the "unaffiliated" anarchists - piss me off no end. But seriously matey, are there some grave differences you have with this group which would prevent you from being a member or involved and put your arguments and case forwards inside of it?
especially considering that
especially considering that Israel is the size of Wales.
As far as we could tell the other day AATW were the only thing that even looked like an anarchist or even half decent leftist group there.
I wouldn't know how to
I wouldn't know how to approach them, for one. I mean, they give off a very cliquey vibe, though I may be wrong.
More ideologically, they seem to be very single issue. There's no joint AATW position on anything other than the Occupation. That's all I hear about on the grapevine, and that's all you can see on their recent activities list. Even when they act inside of Israel, the only issue they raise is the Occupation. I happen to have more on my agenda than that.
righty ho. What was the name
righty ho. What was the name of your organisation again?
I wouldn't mind reading its list of recent activities.
Tacks wrote: Their politics
Tacks
There is overlap with Ta'ayush, yes?
Have you seen this?
french:http://www.iaf-ifa.org/News/palestine/communique_july_fr.htm
It was the best group statement I could find that recognised that Israelis are also involved in a struggle for liberation whereas so many 'western/european' self-proclaimed anarchist groups ignore this in their kaffieyeh wearing support for nationalisms.
I prefer Buber's bi-national solution over the two-state solution, but then I don't want to move there to live, nor do I want to feel driven to live there. Buber was Ben-Gurion's best and longest ideological opponent.I'm making a website (fansite) on him as a project, but it's not ready yet.
Is that the one I just linked to from the Fédération anarchiste? It was one of the better statements!
This also was a good statement:
Summer 2006: 2006/07/israel-israeli-activist-speaks-on.html
As was this from 1991: archive-1991-culture-war-and-religious.html
Did IFA say that? I thought that was the CWF (Class War Foundation/London Class War) who said 'no war but class war'? Here's the IFA again:
http://www.iaf-ifa.org/News/palestine/communique_july_en.htm
I didn't see anything quite so crass in their statement.
Dennis Fox reports on them - he was where I used to go for info before their website was revamped: http://blog.dennisfox.net/index.php/archives/category/anarchism
Indeed. Fundraiser? Reclaim the Streets 'do' coming up soon.
Tacks wrote: righty ho.
Tacks
That's a cheap shot. Sorry that I'm not trying to change things from within and reforming the organization for the better, like all the good little anarchists. Hell, maybe I should join the CPI. I mean, at least they're an organization, right? And it's so much worse not to be organized at all.
What you just described is
What you just described is not anarchism, treeofjudas, not anarchism as I know it - sounds more like trotskyite entryism.
So here is the Palestinian campaign equivalent: http://www.stopthewall.org/
And this is Ta'ayush, who demonstrate every Friday in Bil'in Village: http://www.taayush.org/
Also there is also the Budrus collective - with joint Arab-Israeli workshops and also they hold solidarity demonstrations: http://www.middleway.org/English/files/peace_conf2007.html
The Budrus workshop is easy to get to, and also holds joint workshops with a Kibbitz Lotan (Reform,zionist) regularly on permaculture (called falcha/bio-falcha).
https://www.arashi.com/pipermail/ccpg/2006q3/002015.html
Tree, there is a report on one of the bio-falcha workshops at Budrus in Hebrew version of ynetnews with fotos if you want to search, else I will get them from my other machine and upload them with my very inadequate translation from the hebrew.
There is always http://gush-shalom.org/ - they call for solidarity in Bil'in this Friday 23rd with the ongoing protest there.
Then in the Negev, there is the Social Advocacy Project, always on the look out for solidarity: http://1breathtime.com/negev/index-eng.htm
As well as the Bustan http://bustan.org/2007/02/uprooting_israeli_government_d.html who carry news from the Regional Council of Unrecognized Villages (RCUV)
There's also this group who call for activist solidarity, but I know nothing about their politics - probably cross-platform: http://www.iued.org.il
And here, the nabka-in-hebrew group go up against the ILA in Self De-fence in Miske (recommended)
Yes, what about all of those
Yes, what about all of those organization, none of which has any decent class perspective? I get updates on their actions all the time on the ActLeft mailing list. I even go to a few of them. Does that mean I have to join any of them, otherwise I'm lame for not being in an organization?
I've initiated a few of my own actions, too, you know. If I weren't set back by depression and by most people I know who would be into it either being too busy with other issues (like animal liberation or GLBT liberation), or liable to co-opt my ideas into a Leninist framework, I might try and organize a group to continue that zine I made two issues of promoting soldiers dissent among, *gasp*, soldiers, for example. Quite a few of them responded very well to an obvious radical leftist actually trying to communicate with them, instead of yelling slogans or playing "let's see how long we can mess around before some of us get arrested" with the police.
I refuse to join an organization by default. I refuse to risk police violence for no good reason. Getting beaten up by the riot police because a bunch of idiots decided that it would be such a cool idea to dress up as clown soldiers, provoke the police and then mock them was the final straw for me. I don't know why I didn't get the picture when I was getting tear-gassed and flash-grenaded by the gendarmie, and also stoned by Palestinian youths, in Bil'in, in a mass demo a month or so earlier than that, where the main body of the protest was comprised of Palestinians calling for national unity. And you know what? I don't think there's anything to celebrate this Friday in Bil'in. Because the direct action there has failed long ago. It's time to move on.
I'm sick and tired of endangering myself for no good reason. I'm sick and tired of tail-ending other people's campaigns, just because it's something to do. Yeah, there's a need for an organization, but right now there just isn't one, and I, for one, won't pretend that there is. One will have to be built from scratch, and I feel like I'm the only one around with the right ideology, and it's beyond my powers at the moment. So I spent a month getting my OP published, and I try to spread my ideas, and that's all I can manage right now. I know it's not as cool as being a member of AATW, but I guess not everyone can be an awe-inspiring anarchist hero.
PS: And, by the way, I was being sarcastic in my response to Tacks. I'm definitely opposed to entryism, and I sure don't see it as a valid anarchist tactic. I do intervene in CPI meetings, but I don't pretend to be anything more than an inconvenient outsider.
Quote: I might try and
I think this is a bit unfair to some of the AATW folks. Several of the AATW activists I met in Bil'in did do refusnik organizing (in high schools especially) and do seriosuly discuss with soldiers, challenging them on what they are doing. In Bil'in you hardly ever get the chance, but e.g. in Hebron the soldiers there are very keen to talk to you (at least in my experience).
Also, a lot of the AATW I met were involved in all kinds of activism in Israel; animal liberation, GLB and such.
Re: you were stoned by shebab in Bil'in. Were you in the cross fire or do you feel that you were actually targeted? The former happened to me several times in Bil'in, though luckily I was never seriously hurt (though the IDF weren't as nice to me).
treeofjudas wrote: One
tojiah
ok, maybe the group is better off without you then :D Joking aside - i think this is a dangerous mindset to have to be honest mate. You will NEVER have 100% agreement within a political group, much less in a movement, and those who demand it are destined to be forever insignificant and irrelevant. Only in an online message board environment can one feel some significance with "best politics" and the most purist of approaches.
but i understand what you mean, you dont like the group and dont feel politically in tune with them enough to join them - thats fair enough. I was not looking to hear you slag them off, or to get that defensive about it, because it is a perfectly valid reason if your politics differ radically from theirs. I just didn't know that the differences would have been so grave...
I think co-operation and mutual work in a democratic framework to form policies and actions is fundamental to any class based anarchism, which is why i dont understand unaffiliated class struggle anarchists who rather just go on it on their own because of some tiny political difference while criticising individualists :D In todays tiny anarchist groups people have very little experience and practice working with even small ideological differences which shows in the way infighting flares up just from small issues, or even worse, splits.
I guess we would not have any of the great historical examples of big influental anarchist/libertarian movements, groups and moments if folk would have had the same attitude in the past.
atlemk wrote: I think this
atlemk
I was talking about how Israeli radical leftists interact with the IDF in general.
Now, I've not seen AATW much, but from what I have seen, they yell at the soldiers/police people as opposed to actually talking to them. Animal liberationists at least set up stands near the central staff of the IDF, distribute fliers, etc, to promote veganism with the soldiers. I've never seen a similar move by the AATW.
But I could be wrong. It's the chicken and the egg. To work closely with them I would have to actively seek them out, yet they haven't left such an impression on me that I would want to seek them out.
atlemk
First of all, none of that is class struggle, if I'm to put on my purist hat. But even ignoring that, they're not involved in it as an organziation.
atlemk
We were moving away from the gendarmie when one of their vans overtook us, and then we were caught in the middle. And then the stones came. Even if it was crossfire, it's ridiculously irresponsible of them to act this way.
JDMF wrote: ok, maybe the
JDMF
Probably. I would raise awkward questions that might be unpopular with the Palestinian masses, and we wouldn't want that, would we? ;)
JDMF
I think it's reasonable of me to have a list of basic demands from an organization before I join it or help set it up. If there wasn't any kind of leftist organization in Israel, would you tell me to join some kind of centrist group just so that I'm organized?
JDMF
Alrighty then.
JDMF
I don't think I was slagging them off. I think my criticism of them is valid. This is my impression of them. It's not completely positive, especially in terms of what's relevant to this board, which I thought deserved some exposure, considering all the adulations rained over them by previous posts.
JDMF
I was getting the impression that Tacks` appreciation for me lessened considerably once he realized that I wasn't really part of the ever victorious AATW. Made me feel defensive. Sorry.
JDMF
What can I say: I'm a unique snowflake.
JDMF
I'll tell you what the main problem here is. Most of the activists in Israel don't only know each other now; they've gone to the same high-schools, lived in the same neighborhoods, etc. I, on the other hand, am very much an outsider. I was raised where the most "radical" leftists were Zionist.
I came to the positions I hold late in life, after much deliberation and reflection, and I did not have a nearby high-profile radical clique to join or to interact with. I mean, Eyal was the only person of that character that I really knew before I came to Tel Aviv, and I just wasn't ready back then.
So for me, even setting up contacts with any serious organization has been working from scratch. The only organization which holds regular meetings open to the public in which some ideology is actually discussed is, I think, CPI; the rest I would have to actively seek out.
I've tried connecting with Da'am, which seem to have greater internationalist potential, but they're nigh inaccessible (though they're having a social event next week, I might want to go in there and see if I can talk to someone).
I've found someone who claimed to be a communist anarchist, but she's a lot more focused on animal liberation. I've tried finding like-minded people in, say the Student Coalition (an on-campus leftist group), but I wasn't really fortunate there.
I'll probably attempt to get organized again once I've a job and am out of my down period (though the former may leave me without enough time to do a lot of politics, all of which you can read about in this thread); but I think it's better not to be organized at all than to carry a membership card in an anti-working-class organization.
JDMF
There were a lot more big, influential movements that were neither anarchist nor libcommie.
I guess what I could do is contact AATW and send them the fliers I've already made and distributed, see if they might be interested in some kind of co-operation on that subject some time in the future, or maybe to take this over (done). I'd have thought of it before if I hadn't been so individualistic, I guess. :(
yeah i think the reason why
yeah i think the reason why the grilling is that you clearly would be an asset to any group - good politics, good shit, vegan (;) - just a joke to piss revol off) and so on.
In situations where some even remotely close to our politics are so few even one individual can make a nice contribution, we can see it in our tiny anarchist groups over in UK.
But your plan of trying to map out more libertarian commie class struggle anarho folk is a good idea as well, you may end up with a small network of people and build on that - maybe pulling AATW folk more towards class positions.
I am an extremist about these issues, i always join a group nearby without fail, and will do that no matter which country i'd be in. Sometimes it is a close match, sometimes not quite but i can still get some stuff done while i am at it.
treeofjudas wrote: Yes,
tojiah
Solidarity, community and participation in an event is not 'joining an organisation'. You know of Daila, yes? Do you ever go there? The 'Last Wednesday Forum' is actually going to be this coming Wednesday 1 March at 19:30 and will host a panel on freedom of speech in press, community and religion. There's an LGBT meet sometime after - I'm not sure when.
I'm not judging you.
You know there are other organisations promoting refusenik ideology, and yet personal direct action, is higly effective, so maybe there is a need for you to come to terms with this 'alone' feeling you have?
It is good that you got a response, and a gentler approach for worked for you and them. I agree that sabre-rattling slogans create a great barrier and prefer the softly softly techniques of interpersonal interaction, such as that espoused by philosopher Martin Buber, whom I greatly admire.
No-one joins AATW - they don't keep a membership list. Is this the same for the other action groups, like Ta'ayush, for example?
I disagree strongly with you in that direct action in Bil'in could be thought of as 'failed' (past tense) It's obviously not for you, but that's no reason to declare it failure - it's time for you to move on, and that's your feeling, but it's not time for Bil'in demonstrators to move on - that is what the State would prefer, and to hear you in agreement with the State is unnerving.
For the Bil'in demonstrators, it's an ongoing struggle that demands to be expressed. I fear you've swallowed 'the other pill' and this creates a inert state in you - the last thing an activist needs is to be cowed into an inert state by State-sanctioned violence!
The weekly demonstrations in Bil'in are important. There are other ways of participating and making your feelings known, so if non-violent direct action and all the risks this entails in your country are not for you, then there are other ways of protesting - the sandwichboard person who walks through busy shopping areas - the letter writing activist - the handing out leaflets activist - the speak to everyone you meet activist - the student activist, etc.
Then start your own. You'd make a good sandwich-board person and your physical presence means you'd get alot of attention -your gentler approach has already proved you can turn heads and turn minds onto thinking differently.
There isn't one that suits you, but this doesn't mean the others are invalidated. You sound overcome with feeling of futility and activist burn-out.
Use that feeling - maybe design a sandwich board and complimentary leaflets, and maybe take your appealing face and gentler approach to the municipal centres and to the streets - but before you do so, please be certain that you don't undermine the efforts of other activists, or get involved with factional infighting, else you'll be doing the State's work for them.
Maybe you could address this feeling of being an outsider, since this will be how the broader Israeli society feel, also they, like you, realise deep down there is a pressing need for action, yet when the pressures on, they'll side, through fear or through exposure to propaganda, on the side of oppressive action, rather than the action of conscience.
Luther Blissett
Luther Blissett
I know a person who volunteers at Daila; I've also volunteered myself at Salon Mazal, a Tel Aviv counterpart.
The topic sounds kind of bland, frankly.
Luther Blissett
Refusenik isn't an ideology, it's a tactic.
Luther Blissett
Well, as long as you're not judging me, or anything.
Luther Blissett
There are a few hard-core activists who are the face and body of AATW. There's no need to keep a membership list, they all know each other.
Luther Blissett
Why are they important? The fence has already been built. These demos only get people hurt and maybe make some other people feel like heroes. The opportunity for direct action there was closed the minute they finished setting up the fence. There are other places where a fence has not yet been built, and they do work there, too, but why bother taking part in those ineffectual weekly demos in Bil'in?
Luther Blissett
It's definitely something that I had no problem doing, but I don't want to risk myself when I feel that there's no good reason to do so. Too many actions are not worth the risk, and seem to be taken just because violent confrontations with the police are cool.
Luther Blissett
Yes, I know. I don't know if it's intentional, but you're coming off as very patronizing.
Luther Blissett
I did that once on my own volition. It was pretty amusing, though I was very politically unsettled back then (two years ago or so.. seems like ages now).
Luther Blissett
Does writing angry talkbacks on leftist websites count? I did have an OP published online, and am looking for ideas for the next one. Maybe dispelling some myths about the ills of privatization. I mean, those Egyptian textile workers have really raised an excellent point, which must be positively elaborated upon: the problem isn't who the owner is, state or outsider, but what the employment conditions are.
Luther Blissett
Have done, will do in the future, I expect.
By the way, leafletting and sign-carrying is being done at the weekly vigils in Jerusalem, with much success. I was at the committee where they set it up, and participated in the first three, before my heavy down period started.
Luther Blissett
I have preached the Good News at quite a few unfortunates, yes..
Luther Blissett
I'm not going to be a student again anytime soon. Still, I have made contact with an on-campus organization... as soon as they're back to doing stuff, and assuming I have the time, there are a few activities I might want to participate in.
Luther Blissett
I think you're beating down a straw-man, here. I have and will continue to co-operate with other organizations, and I don't think they're all "invalid", I just will not join any of them, and will continue criticizing them.
But, yes, I'm feeling burnt out, not just because of activism, but because of some personal issues I'd really rather not get into here. (I mean, I'd never be able to live down LR's acerbic responses)
Luther Blissett
I meant an outsider inconvenient to them, not to me. :)
Luther Blissett
Discontent is rising, and none of it is directed towards the system; instead, as usual, scapegoats are drawn and quartered. Thing is, most radical leftist actions just feed on this, asking for this or that individual to resign, targetting specific individuals rather than the establishment as a whole. I guess it's part of their parliamentarism. (Maybe I should write an OP against parliamentarism? Though that would probably be more relevant closer to the next elections)
Look, my point isn't that there's nothing to do, or that organizations do not exist; it's just difficult to set up prolonged campaigns on one's own, especially with my current personal situation, and none of the organizations that I know of could combine the emotional and tactical support with an ideological proximity to my views. Too many of the organizations accept and internalize the internal/external affairs dichotomy, and the only ones with even an inkling of class analysis are Leninist.
Anyway, as regards this thread, which is about AATW, I think I've legitimately presented my critique of their actions and ideology. At some point it became personal, probably because of me being too defensive. If you want to get back on topic, I don't mind; otherwise, I think this should proceed at my very own "I'm a whiney bitch" thread.
JDMF wrote: I am an
JDMF
Well, although I'm not an individualist by ideology, I am so in practice. I'm not proud of it, it's just hard for me to connect with people. The closest thing I've done lately is volunteering at Salon Mazal, taking part in their decision-making meetings, et-cetera, but they're more of an ideological and activist clearinghouse than a real organization.
Joining an organization is a real effort for me, so I'd like to know that it's worth my trouble.
Fuck it, I just need to get a job and get out of depression, then I'll be able to do a lot more about everything than just whine about it on these boards. But I could really use some advice on the other thread, wink-wink, nudge-nudge.
treeofjudas wrote: Tacks
tojiah
WHAT? how is that a cheap shot? Look, you are clearly a highly motivated anarchist with severely sorted politics - far more than me - i thinbk iots reasonable to assume that someone so motivated is active!
Tacks wrote: WHAT? how is
Tacks
:wall:
I apologize. It's obvious that I'm beginning to read hidden meanings in everything that everyone writes. If Ihad to guess why, it's perhaps because I feel guilty for having been largely inactive politically for the past few months, due to personal reasons.
To bloody answer your question, as opposed to going all defensive and lashing out, I'm not in any organization. The last major contribution I've made was that OP pushing internationalism on an unwilling public, a few months ago. Or maybe it was at that olive planting thing a few weeks ago. I've been to demos, I've contributed to the initiation of the weekly GLBT protest vigil, I wrote and distributed a zine directed at IDF central staff soldiers, but then lost heart after publishing two issues (due to JDMF's prodding, I finally realized that I could have just tried and gotten a non-Leninist group interested in pursuing it, in this case, AATW. Sent them an email just now), I've intevened at quite a few CPI meetings (to no avail), and that's pretty much it, and even that was until about two months ago. I hope to get employed in the next few weeks, after which I can start planning new actions, unless my job takes over my life (which is something that really worries me, to be frank, and makes me feel even more guilty and defensive).
I'm really sorry for having been kind of an ass in this thread. I hope things get better a few weeks from now.
ah shit sorry i should have
ah shit sorry i should have read your following posts before posting that whoops :(
my last post was a bit unneccessary actually; i was being overly defensive too.
when i have a minute i'll send you a list of names of ppl to look out for in AATW who i think it would be important for you to talk with/i know quite well and respect. Whilst it certainly has some dodgy politics, AATW is a very dynamic group that can put out very good propoganda and is clearly full of hard workers.
Good luck with finding a job that is isn't too shit:)
I've just had a short
I've just had a short exchange with Jonathan Pollack of AatW over at infoshop.org:
http://paste.turbogears.org/paste/1066/plain
http://www.infoshop.org/inews/article.php?story=20070224045028517
about AatW. I basically argue that they're, well, not Anarchists, although in honesty I need to qualify that statement some.. I'd like to comment about this forum thread but I need to go to bed now, big exam tomorrow...
Eyal Rozenberg wrote: I've
Eyal Rozenberg
Sure, we all look forward very much to your attempt(s) to justify your viewpoint that AATW are 'not anarchists', here on libcom.
treeofjudas
tojiah
I disgree strongly - refusenik is an ideology:
Sassoon's Declaration against the War
http://contemporary-anarchist.blogspot.com/search?q=sassoon
This is worth translating for one of your refusenik leaflets, yes?
Written during the first world war, Sassoon, came to realise that insensitive political leadership was the greater enemy.
Well, I said most of it in
Well, I said most of it in the link, I don't want to copy-paste. But it is worth noting that AatW is to a great extent a (not-really-but-at-least-supposedly-)direct action group formed by a core of people in their late teens and early 20s (pretty sure I'm getting the age range correctly) who had grown up within or around Tel-Aviv Anarcho-Punk scene. There are intricate and often inexplicit relations between this milieu, on whose fringe you could also find me during my stay in the Tel-Aviv area for 2 years, and that of the social-democratic left, surrounding the Israeli Communist Party and the front organization into which it's liquidating itself, DFPE. If that last sentence sounded complicated to you, then that's good, because I think this is a complex situation, in which organzational inertiae, identity politics and (supposedly) rebellious counter-culture aspects guide the 'free' political development of individuals and small groups along certain paths, or perhaps in certain circles.
Another point I had not made is regarding the question of non-violence and direct action. Almost all of the group's activity is not direct action, but rather protest, as a means of solidifying solidarity, increasing the visibility of the issue, and perhaps effecting Israeli jurists and policy-makers. Some semi-direct-action has been the attempt to get wall/fence gates opened, but AFAICT there have not been plans to actually get the gates opened and pass people through them despite the Israeli military's objection, the gate manipulation has been mostly a symbolic action, drawing public attention rather than "getting the goods". AatW also fail, AFAIK, to publicly discuss the question of _why_ there is no direct action against the wall in Bil'in and in the west bank in general (by Palestinians, I mean; they're too conspicuous to do anything like that without ending up in jail or shot in the head).
What more can I say?
Luther Blissett:
It's mostly a fence, but in some sections it's a wall (e.g. A-Ram, and Qalqilia, maybe some others). The important thing is that if you try to get across it, the frequency of metal in your body is likely to increase in the very short future...
The AatW do have a spiffy website... and it has no group positions or statements on anything (correct me if I'm wrong). If you take away the word 'Anarchist' from the banner you'll be hard-pressed to relate them to Anarchism. Their claim that
is both untrue and a sort of psychological denial. They do propagandize - in fact, like I said, the very protest is a form of propaganda, plus they appear in mainstream and alternative media. And their line varies from apparently-Anarchist to apparently-Statist, depends on who they're talking to. I won't deny that personally, they would like for there to be Anarchism, they just don't really argue for it, or against developments which are diametrically opposed to it. And the protest seems to be the standard CPI/Fatah fare - Israeli withdrawal to 1967 lines, two states, let's protect human rights, that's it basically.
ugh, don't say that, Buber was basically "we have to take their land but it's for the greater good so let's all be really friendly about it". Perhaps you read some third-party account of his relation to the question of Palestine and his views about it?
You should support my position, because not supporting it is what the [insert evil entity here] wants...
No! In the sense that this opportunity ceased to exist with the completion of the fence, it also did not exist beforehand. But in other senses, it had existed before and exists, still, now. Not for non-locals, though, and not publicly.
I don't see how that quote implies that 'refusenik' is an ideology. It can be a consequence of political beliefs and it is a social and political, rather than a merely personal, course of action, but it's still a tactic.
Tacks:
Your post suggests Palestinians living under pre-1967 Israeli sovereignity are not Palestinians... perhaps you do so inadvertantly, but that's part of the acceptance of the partition and two-state logic which is apparent also with AatW.
As for the gap between the living conditions of the average Israeli worker and average Palestinian worker - during the 1980s-1990s it was significant but not as much as Chinese sweat shop labor vs European high-tech work. Of course, this changed after 2000, in which the downward slope of the Palestinian economy took a further nose-dive, and now most people are unemployed and many malnourished. Still, you must also remember that the average Israeli worker lives in a family with an income of a single Israeli minimum wage, and that's something very difficult to get by with. There's a big housing crisis in Israel, for example (e.g. policy of no public housing construction), effective unemployment (not the bogus official statistics, which stop counting you after X months) is 20% or upwards, I think, health and education services are deteriorated and deteriorating etc. etc. Don't judge based on the hi-tech centers in Herzlia Pituach...
A 'no state solution' is not perceived as an insult as such: The perceived insult is due to the fact that 99.9% of the Palestinian polity considers statehood to be the path of deliverance from Israeli occupation into war-free and prosperous future; for you as an Israeli to tell them "look, I think you shouldn't have a state" is a statement which does not differentiate you from the Zionist position. It takes some explaining to make clear that you think that a struggle for liberation is in order, but a national state is not the instrument you think the Palestinian people should look to. Then you are not perceived as insulting, but rather well-meaning perhaps but completely out-of-touch with the real world and not even worth arguing with. However, supporting two states is much worse, in a sense, because it is the insult which people have been conditioned into accepting despite sort of knowing that it won't do anything much. Ok, that statement requires some elaboration, if you want it, ask for it. Anyway, 2 states is not an interim solution to anything at all, it has been and will continue to be only a recipe for continued shitty political conditions in the middle east.
From what I know I agree with your observation about their courage, but see treeofjudas' observation - sometimes it's courage, sometimes its recklessness or thrill-seeking, sometimes both. As for 'goodness', above criticism notwithstanding, that's also true. Still, about solidarity and money, there are organizations and people in much more dire need of solidarity and money. For example, Ansaar Al-Sajeen have recently been barred from operating in Israel, as it has been made illegal to aid prisoners in certain ways (sending packages, legal counselling, gathering donations, stuff like that), and their charge - numerous palestinian (citizen and non-citizen) political prisoners and detainees in Israel, have it pretty bad. The thing is, these people are invisible to you - they're almost invisible to me, too - and what's more, not having made the official statement "I an an Anarchist", don't make infoshop.org and ainfos headlines. They do get beaten and sexually abused on scales which are far beyond the scale of abuse of Jewish prisoners and detainees (caveat: sexual abuse happens mostly in Israeli GSS 'care' rather than during prison terms). So, I dunno, I would never tell anyone "don't donate", please do donate if you can spare the money, I'm just saying... (sigh), never mind, I don't know what I'm saying.
I was one of the interviewees, and it was 4-way, not 3-way IIRC.
I think you're applying the wrong criteria. I would say that even 'Isha le-Isha', the Feminist center in Haifa's Hadar neighborhood, which doesn't profess Anarchism in any sense or form, and whose Anarchist or close-to-Anarchist activists you can number on the fingers of one hand, has been much more influential in promoting radical social transformation and even, ultimately, the cause of Anarchism, than any Israeli-and-or-Palestinian Anarchist group I know of (not that there are many, mind you...). I guess nobody on the forum has ever heard of it, though.
treeofjudas:
AatW don't have direct-action tactics. And their non-direct-action tactics have, on the whole, failed - at least as means to avoid loss of land to confiscation and wall/fence construction. Perhaps people here don't know this, but the fence near Bil'in has been completed quite a while ago, and even before that happened, the protests were on the day of the week in which construction wasn't happening. They tried to obstruct the construction a couple of times AFAICR, but they got shot at more seriously, and people got wounded, and I think some one(s?) got killed too, so they stopped. So 6 days a week the inconscientious build the wall, and on the 7th day the people of conscience protest this.
The argument regarding Lebanon - that's a long story, if you want to develop it in conjuction to the discussion about AatW then say so, for now I'll leave it aside.
this is a very good choice of words about a lot of what we do. I have a theory about a perceptive framework for the non-Zionist Israeli left (including Anarchists, blah blah post-left etc. etc., never mind that now) which focuses on the consideration of our tail-ending of certain political currents. If only I had the time and attention span to develop it seriously. I think it really hits the nail on the head, with respect to AatW also, as a CPI/Fatah satellite organization.
this is true, but not as such. It isn't the same schools and not necessarily the same neighborhoods in which such affiliations and associations have been formed, I believe. (but I don't have hard data to base this on). You may have this impression because many activists seem very close together when compared to you, an outsider-newcomer.
atlemk:
From experience, this is rather impossible. Very few people, if any, are convinced to leave the army by discussion. Even for me - and I consider myself someone willing to change his views if presented a powerful argument - this had not been the case. People like me and I guess people in the AatW often have 'protest discussions' with soldiers, border patrol guards and policemen on various occassions, but it's more a form of venting then an attempt to get them to switch over to our side... oh, I just noticed treeofjudas said the same.
'refusenik' organization is important though. I used to be very heavily involved in counselling military service objectors/avoiders (although I do other things these days). This sort of work is not only personally rewarding, it is very effective in helping people change the course of their lives so as not to be socialized into the Zionist, pro-Capitalist, pro-Statist etc concensus.
As for the animal 'liberation' struggle, that's another sad story of self-liquidation of Anarchist groups into animal-rights-oriented organizations which eventually lose their radical perspective and ending up having websites explaining to school kids how animal rights are compatible with Jewish tradition. It may be interesting to compare and contrast AatW against the 'One Struggle' group, whose members come from the roughly the same 'pool' of prospectives. http://www.onestruggle.org/
JDMF:
You're assuming he can have 90% or 80% agreement with an existing group, and expect him to join based on that. But we don't have even that.
Quote: They tried to
What you write about Bil'in's tactics regarding protesting the Wall is pretty accurate. When I was in Bil'in (I basically lived there for two months) I was very confused as to why the protests were on Fridays and not on the days when construction did take place. Bil'in should have followed the examples of Budrus and Biddu where they had daily protests against the Wall. I know that people from both Biddu and Budrus tried to convince the popular committee of this, but they still stuck to the Friday protests. The reasons for this was, as far as I remember, partly economic (Bil'in is very very poor) and the choice of conducting basically a media war (similar to what you described as AATW's tactic). Most of the actions that Bil'in started to do in April 2005 onwards were designed to be theatrical and performative for the media (and the IDF did play this game as well because Bil'in did manage to get some sympathy in the media). However, in these actions people did not necessarily get more shot at and wounded (and no-one's been murdered in Bil'in so far), rather beaten up and arrested.
Re: discussing with soldiers. This is difficult, especially in places like Bil'in where the relationship is by default confrontational (in Hebron the case is very different. There I found the soldiers very open to talk about the situation. Several times I found myself in 3-4 hour long discussions with groups of soldiers. Though of course, I do not think I changed any minds). The point is not necessarily about soldiers leaving the army (though that is the ideal), but could also just be about refusal to serve in the OPT. However, I know that several AATW and ISM folks (me included) did talk to soldiers and some of them were troubled by what they were doing or did not see the point in what they were doing. Soldiers stationed in Bil'in expressed interest of actually coming to Bil'in as civilians to get to know the situation and place better. Other soldiers expressed sympathy with our actions etc. However, in the grand scheme of things these discussions were opportunistic and personal initiatives by individual activists rather than an AATW line or policy. What Treeofjudas has suggested in other posts seems reasonable. Working with soldiers is extremely important, must be done sensitively (i.e. shouting abuse does not help) and as a concerted effort.
atlemk wrote: Bil'in should
atlemk
I did not know that, thanks for this bit of info. Now, this is exactly the kind of thing that bothers me about the Bil'in protests: Protesters are treated by the organizers as a sort of a spectator herd, not as political partners. I'm pretty sure 80% or more of the people coming to protest at Bil'in were never told about these considerations and are not even aware this is actually the result of a conscious decision; they come to sympathize with (oversimplifically-perceived) objects, not interact with subjects.
Israeli Anarchists Agains
Israeli Anarchists Agains The Wall have a new and active website at:
http://awalls.org
You can also find texts about us or by us if you do googl search on:
"anarchists against the wall" ( last time goole found 80,000
Ilan
Its a big improvement on the
Its a big improvement on the site.
We've been asked if we would set up a AATW forum but we thought demand might not that be great, so we might set up a Middle East focussed forum (with the option to create new ones if interest from a particular region/group was high) - would you guys be interested in that?
After 55 years of activity
After 55 years of activity in the Israeli left and 40 years as libertarian communist, I find it very sad the forum is in the UK and not in a local project.
For sure the AATW activists are not many. Only part of the present activists are self labeled anarchists. For sure the strategy of the group is in line with the older Matspen approach that two states are not the solution but it is non of our business to preach about it to the Palestinians.
AATW can not substitute the Palestinians - we can only join when invited. And for sure can not criticize the partners for taking low risk strategy.
Fo those who look down on Bil'in, just see how the struggle south of Beitlehem started in the region of Um Salmuna and Beit Omar.
They came to Bil'in to learn. they even came with a big contingent to one of the Friday demonstrations.
You can belittle the struggle in Bil'in as you wish but the efect of it on the scene of the struggle is much more than seen from quick glance.
Just a short egsample:
When the reactionaries in the village distributed a leaflet against the joint struggle and threatened to attack us - the higher national comity issued a call and sent a delegate to give a speach in the village in support.
When the nationalist and fundamentalists support in public the joint struggle with Israeli anarchists and internationals, you can not say it is not with huge impact.
I wonder what is your take about internationalism in the West of the Mediteranian, but when a Palestinian daily put in the front page a picture of anarchists doing symbolic action by mounting armored vehicles of the Israeli army near Gaza with appropriate text, it is no more business as usual.
You can belittle it as you wish but when thousands of Israelis participated in the Bil'in Friday demos and the main TV and radio media report on it again and again, you must be blind not to sense the change it brings.
rkn wrote: Its a big
rkn
I think a Middle East focused forum would be very useful anyway. I mean, among the Israelis on this website right now, which are four, I think, including me, only one is from AAtW, while all of us are obviously from the Middle East.
Regardless, you can judge whether you think AAtW is libertarian communist or not --- which is a criterion for setting up a special organizational forum, isn't it? --- by reading Ilan's post.
I dont really know what Ilan
I dont really know what Ilan was talking about tbh, if it was in response to me or not. But thanks for your feedback - we will ask some more and think.
rkn wrote: I dont really
rkn
Oh, I think Ilan was just replying to all of the posts in this thread at once.
Some discussion of AATW in
Some discussion of AATW in this article
'The new Israeli left'
Article on AATW on the +972
Article on AATW on the +972 site
http://972mag.com/the-most-important-jewish-anti-occupation-group-needs-your-support/
Obituary for AATW member
Obituary for AATW member Renen Raz
also Farewell to Renen Raz